WWYD - possibly creepy guy

[Melissa in Australia]

I would take this opportunity to reign in a very dangerous practice of having one person, alone, in an unlocked church building, EVER.

 

It is VERY dangerous. The church should not allow it! You should not allow it! 

 

Safety precautions should require two people there at all times. The only exception would be if someone was there and had all the doors locked. For sure. Even that is risky!

:iagree:

[Vida Winter]

I would not have her work there under *any* circumstances. Quit with zero notice, but do tell the church leadership why.

[GoodGrief]

If he is truly simply a lonely soul, who is awkward socially, this is a good opportunity to learn appropriate behavior toward young girls/women. He may get his feelings hurt, but I think that's unlikely, and irrelevant, regardless.

 

FWIW, my teen daughter was abused by a man in a community theater situation; he had a significant past as a sex offender (a horrific offense, lest someone think this was a teen boy with his slightly underaged girlfriend situation), but had "paid his debt to society" (I suppose), and a kindhearted soul thought he had changed and it was a good idea to bring him into a drama group that included multiple teen girls. None of the parents were aware of his past, though it was clear that he was a bit of a drifter and perpetually underemployed. The full story only came out after the deed was done. He's back in prison.  Six years later, we continue to deal with the issue in therapy.

 

 

[jelbe5]

When you went with your dd did he come and sit and talk with you?

 

He had an opportunity to sit and talk with your son two times but it sounds as though he did not. His social interaction was short when someone else was with your dd. This indicates his focus is on your daughter and that he is not just "lonely".

 

She feels uncomfortable when he is there. Her gut is warning her.

 

This man is watching her comings and goings - he notices when she is there. That in and of itself speaks volumes.

 

He does not seem too concerned about the apperances of an older man in an empty building with a 16 year old female. Most churches today have policies that specify the need to have two adults present when minors are involved. Plus she is working and he is interfering with her work duties by monopolizing her time. But this does not seem to be an important consideration to him.

 

Asking her to play the piano sounds almost like grooming behavior to me . . . He has found a skill she has and he is giving positive attention to that in an effort to make her feel friendly towards him.

 

He is being inconsiderate and manipulative.

 

In my opinion, you already have a very clear indication of a problem here.

Edited August 4, 2016 by jelbe5

[Carrie12345]

That'd be a big QUIT from me.

 

Whatever the man's intent, reason, function level, there is no question that he lacks proper judgment.  Empathizing with whatever his situation may be does not magically provide him with proper judgment.  There is absolutely no way I would allow my child to roll the dice to discover just how far his bad judgment does or does not go.

[marbel]

I would take this opportunity to reign in a very dangerous practice of having one person, alone, in an unlocked church building, EVER.

 

It is VERY dangerous. The church should not allow it! You should not allow it! 

 

Safety precautions should require two people there at all times. The only exception would be if someone was there and had all the doors locked. For sure. Even that is risky!

 

In our church (downtown in a smallish community) the admin works alone in the building.  She keeps the door locked; if someone wants something they can ring a doorbell so she can go talk to them.   In that situation, it would be impossible to have someone there with her at all times.  But she is comfortable with the doors locked. 

 

Re: comments about church policies to have 2 adults with minors - that doesn't really fit this situation.  The guy is not there under the authority of the church - it's not like a Sunday School or youth group thing.  It's still inappropriate!  Completely.  But it has nothing to do with typical child protection practices.  

 

OP, please update when you get this settled.

 

[Rebel Yell]

 

Sorry, but I'm stunned that this even a question.  No, she should not be there alone with this guy.  Sorry if he's lonely; maybe he should find something to do during the day.

 

I'll even go so far as to say if the pastor/leadership of the church are told about this and don't put a stop to it, I'd be questioning my involvement with the church.

 

 

 

Agree.

 

 

 

 

Poppy - see this is what I worry about.  Offending or hurting a lonely soul.  Putting locks on a building that never had locks on it before - wouldn't if be obvious that they were put there because of him? (Assuming locks were the answer in the first place.)

 

It just seems simpler and kinder (and possibly, safer)  to quit the job or try to rearrange my schedule so that I could always be there.  

 

ETA - I'm not sure how practical it would be to always accompany her, but I could try it for a few weeks and who knows, maybe he will have moved on by then.

If this man is truly a harmless lonely soul, then he should NOT get offended at safety measures. He might feel embarrassed that he did not consider that his behavior could be misinterpreted, but a truly decent person should be glad for any new safety measures, and respect them. And then he and the church could find more appropriate ways to deal with his loneliness.

 

 

  

If he is truly simply a lonely soul, who is awkward socially, this is a good opportunity to learn appropriate behavior toward young girls/women. He may get his feelings hurt, but I think that's unlikely, and irrelevant, regardless.

 

FWIW, my teen daughter was abused by a man in a community theater situation; he had a significant past as a sex offender (a horrific offense, lest someone think this was a teen boy with his slightly underaged girlfriend situation), but had "paid his debt to society" (I suppose), and a kindhearted soul thought he had changed and it was a good idea to bring him into a drama group that included multiple teen girls. None of the parents were aware of his past, though it was clear that he was a bit of a drifter and perpetually underemployed. The full story only came out after the deed was done. He's back in prison.  Six years later, we continue to deal with the issue in therapy.

 

 

I am so sorry for this.

 

 

 

 

In our church (downtown in a smallish community) the admin works alone in the building.  She keeps the door locked; if someone wants something they can ring a doorbell so she can go talk to them.   In that situation, it would be impossible to have someone there with her at all times.  But she is comfortable with the doors locked. 

 

Re: comments about church policies to have 2 adults with minors - that doesn't really fit this situation.  The guy is not there under the authority of the church - it's not like a Sunday School or youth group thing.  It's still inappropriate!  Completely.  But it has nothing to do with typical child protection practices.  

 

OP, please update when you get this settled.

 

The guy may not be there under the authority of the church, but the GIRL is. If an adult secretary can have protection, certainly the church can figure out a way to do so for the girl. I'm still a little surprised that the church allows this.

[ktgrok]

Poppy - see this is what I worry about.  Offending or hurting a lonely soul.  Putting locks on a building that never had locks on it before - wouldn't if be obvious that they were put there because of him? (Assuming locks were the answer in the first place.)

 

It just seems simpler and kinder (and possibly, safer)  to quit the job or try to rearrange my schedule so that I could always be there.  

 

ETA - I'm not sure how practical it would be to always accompany her, but I could try it for a few weeks and who knows, maybe he will have moved on by then.

 

No. If he gets offended by being told NOT to hang out with a lone 16 yr old in an isolated area while she's doing a paid job, well, that's HIS problem. Honestly, the church NEEDS to know about this. What if your daughter isn't the only girl he is making feel uncomfortable? Maybe they've heard other things, and this would be the final straw to make him move on. Maybe he's a sex offender, and you don't know it. Honestly, if he doesn't want his feelings hurt he needs to act better. If he doesn't know how, well this is his chance to learn so he doesn't creep out some other girl down the road. 

 

I say talk to the pastor, and keep accompanying her for a while. Also, does she have to do it the same days each week, or can she switch up her schedule so he won't know when she will be there?

[Katy]

Do you have any friends who work in the police department?  Honestly this is the sort of thing that I'd call someone for.  Non-emergency number, but if it turns out this guy is wanted or is on parole or has a history of being a sex offender, this might be enough to yank him alone.  It might depend on the state, but grooming minors is reason enough to yank them back into jail or treatment in the places I've lived.

[magnificent_baby]

I would have her quit immediately. Not worth the risk whatsoever. I wouldn't even be comfortable going with her nor sending another child. 

[Garga]

Asking her to play the piano for him? Seriously? That's just weird. That's what pushes it over the line for me. Did he sit next to her at a piano bench?

Barring some sort of disability, he is clearly interested in her and with the 14 year age difference it is highly improper.

1. Tell the people in charge. Let it be known that you consider this a serious issue. You expect that the man will be told to stay out of the church except during services.

2. Ask for locks to be installed. They can be kept unlocked if the pastor wants when no one is there, but if someone is alone in the church, they should have the option of locking themselves in. They won't protect someone completely, but it helps a little.

3. She either quits or you go with her and stay in the same area with her where you can hear her at all times. Locks or not, she is not safe going there alone. Locks can be gotten around and there's the time she's in the parking lot.

My spidey-senses would be on full alert in this case. You cannot just assume that he's innocent and let your daughter keep going alone.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Garga

[poppy]

I am not advocating putting any child at risk. But I have to say, reading these responses, there is some irony to all this.  tt's a church.  He is just as likely to be disabled / autistic / vulnerable as he is to be a risk.   My first instinct isn't  put on locks and call the authorities.  

 

The pastor/minister/whatever should definitely be aware of this and should have a hand in managing the situation.

 

 

[Mergath]

I am not advocating putting any child at risk. But I have to say, reading these responses, there is some irony to all this. tt's a church. He is just as likely to be disabled / autistic / vulnerable as he is to be a risk. My first instinct isn't put on locks and call the authorities.

 

The pastor/minister/whatever should definitely be aware of this and should have a hand in managing the situation.

This. Maybe it's because I don't believe every guy on the planet is a horny deviant on the verge of becoming a sexual predator, but it sounds to me like the guy is just lonely and probably mentally ill. The pastor should definitely talk to him since he's making the girl uncomfortable, but jeez people, put down the pitchforks. If the guy was a woman it would be a non-issue for most people. Edited August 4, 2016 by Mergath

[momacacia]

I consider the fact that "it's a church" and church people, a key factor. They're "nice, want to help, trusting, don't want to offend." You can see it all over the OP's comment. "Offensive, be kinder, what would he think?!" And she may get this very response from the church. Offenders and potential offenders bank on this mentality of good people. A church is the perfect place to hide out and find victims.

 

And frankly, churches may not be the shiniest stars in the sky. Has the church done a background check on him? They probably can't because They don't even have his social and much other information about him. Maybe he can't get a job because of his messy criminal record. Honestly, it's just as likely that as "he's just a little socially off." If he was "off" he could be that way with your son, too. He wasn't, he just left.

 

Trust is earned. You cannot make the past unhappen. Protect the gift (your dd).

 

(And yes, I've been in churches all my life, but I've also read and heard all the sadly true stories.)

Edited August 4, 2016 by momacacia

[Valley Girl]

By all means, tell the church leadership and have someone speak to the man. If he is just socially awkward, they'll be doing him a favor. Maybe someone can work with him or direct him to services which can help.

By all means, ask the leadership to consider the lack of security at the church.

By all means, contact the local police and see if they can help you find out if this individual has a background which should concern you.

 

However, your DD's instincts are telling her that something is WRONG here.  Trust that.  If it were me, I would want her to quit that job period. Even if the man is moves on, he still will know she is there alone and when. And it doesn't solve the larger concern about her being isolated and vulnerable when working.

 

It's unfair when people have to make major changes in their routine or employment because of the actions of others. But that fact is, sometimes we do. Especially when we're young, fearful of offending, and less able to protect ourselves.

 

Being concerned about this situation is not raising a pitchfork and treating every man as a potential predator. It's responding to one specific individual who is making a young teen uncomfortable with his repeated, unwanted, inappropriate attention. BIG difference.

 

Please let us know how any conversation with the leadership goes.

[Saddlemomma]

So pretty much the only two choices it would seem would be for someone to go with her all the time or for her to quit.  I think I already knew that....just wanted to check with you all if there is something I hadn't thought of.

 

I think there is a 3rd you're missing.  As others have advised, you need to tell the church leadership.  It is their responsibility, since they are supporting this man and your daughter is their employee.  You need to raise her and your concerns to them.  They need to speak with this man and point out how inappropriate his behavior is with a young girl.  They may be able to resolve the situation so that your DD can still work there.

 

In any event, they are responsible for providing a safe work environment for their employee.  This is a huge potential liability issue for them which they need to address and take seriously.  If they can't provide a safe working environment, then yes, your DD will will have to quit or have someone accompany her each time she goes to work.

[magnificent_baby]

This. Maybe it's because I don't believe every guy on the planet is a horny deviant on the verge of becoming a sexual predator, but it sounds to me like the guy is just lonely and probably mentally ill. The pastor should definitely talk to him since he's making the girl uncomfortable, but jeez people, put down the pitchforks. If the guy was a woman it would be a non-issue for most people.

 

You could be correct, however, safety should come first. No reason to approach him with her suspicions and wrongly accuse him of anything. Instead, report the facts to the church board and pastor, quit the job and move on. 

 

Re: your last sentence, when I check my offender registry it is 99% males on it, and I would guess other communities are similar. Being male does increase the likelihood of an issue, fair or not. 

[jelbe5]

Sorry - I have to respectfully disagree. He had 2 opportunities to socialize with the teen girl's brother while she cleaned and did not. He cut the "visit" short when he saw her brother was there with her. The fact that this man is aware of the young lady coming to clean and wanting to follow her around and then have her probably stay longer to play piano coupled with the fact he did not want to talk to her brother is a huge red flag to me.

It suggests his focus is on her. The why is not clear but care should be taken.

 

I have worked with predators in the past. They are the nicest, friendliest people I have ever met. Model citizens in many regards. People you would like to have as your neighbor. It is a skill they seem to be adept at. This man may be harmless but I would err on the side of caution.

[El...]

This is a great chance for her to practice owning her own voice, IMO. 

 

She should not go alone any more, but the next time she goes, with company, she should tell him a scripted "get lost I'm working" speech.  You need to help her prepare it.  She needs to know how to say it.  This is a life skill.  She will need to know how to tell a guy to leave her alone.  More importantly, she needs to experience doing so, so she will know that she CAN do it.

 

Also, she needs to be the one, with your company and support, to tell the pastor what is going on and that she isn't comfortable.  No need to wait; she can do that immediately. The pastor must know what is going on, even before she gives the "get lost" speech.

 

If he doesn't listen when she tells him to stay away, he needs a visit from the pastor plus her dad. 

 

The piano playing request?  That strikes me as weird. 

[Mergath]

Sorry - I have to respectfully disagree. He had 2 opportunities to socialize with the teen girl's brother while she cleaned and did not. He cut the "visit" short when he saw her brother was there with her. The fact that this man is aware of the young lady coming to clean and wanting to follow her around and then have her probably stay longer to play piano coupled with the fact he did not want to talk to her brother is a huge red flag to me.

It suggests his focus is on her. The why is not clear but care should be taken.

 

I have worked with predators in the past. They are the nicest, friendliest people I have ever met. Model citizens in many regards. People you would like to have as your neighbor. It is a skill they seem to be adept at. This man may be harmless but I would err on the side of caution.

People who are mentally ill don't always do things that seem logical. I agree that the girl's safety should come first and the OP should do whatever is necessary, but it's really unfair to assume this guy is a criminal who preys on girls. The people who would try to have him thrown out and treated like a criminal are being unfairly judgy.

[alisoncooks]

If I were to have my daughter tell the guy she can't socialize, I would want to be there as a back-up.  IDK but all those crime dramas show people snapping when finally told they can't do something or someone doesn't want to be around them.  I wouldn't want her alone when she tells him he can't be there...

 

ETA: not saying he's a psycho...but that wouldn't be a chance I'm willing to take.

Edited August 4, 2016 by alisoncooks

[Scarlett]

If he is truly simply a lonely soul, who is awkward socially, this is a good opportunity to learn appropriate behavior toward young girls/women. He may get his feelings hurt, but I think that's unlikely, and irrelevant, regardless.

 

FWIW, my teen daughter was abused by a man in a community theater situation; he had a significant past as a sex offender (a horrific offense, lest someone think this was a teen boy with his slightly underaged girlfriend situation), but had "paid his debt to society" (I suppose), and a kindhearted soul thought he had changed and it was a good idea to bring him into a drama group that included multiple teen girls. None of the parents were aware of his past, though it was clear that he was a bit of a drifter and perpetually underemployed. The full story only came out after the deed was done. He's back in prison. Six years later, we continue to deal with the issue in therapy.

Oh no! I am so sorry.

[Katy]

Oh goodness gracious.  If there is nothing bad in this man's past, calling the non-emergency police won't do any harm.  He likely won't even know it unless he's either been convicted or had multiple complaints in the past.  I'm not talking about a mob mentality here, I'm talking about common sense.

 

I cannot believe anyone here is saying that it's legitimate to tell a young girl to ignore the fact that she fears a man, especially when that same man is exhibiting clear grooming behavior.  Sheesh.  This isn't about sexism, it's about common sense.

[jelbe5]

People who are mentally ill don't always do things that seem logical. I agree that the girl's safety should come first and the OP should do whatever is necessary, but it's really unfair to assume this guy is a criminal who preys on girls. The people who would try to have him thrown out and treated like a criminal are being unfairly judgy.

I have experience with the mentally ill as well, but this situation (based only on what has been posted) just feels wrong to me. Certainly nobody should just assume or accuse the man of being a criminal or sex offender. I agree with others that door locks should be installed for when someone is in the building alone. Unfortunately, in this day and age, that is just something that is, in my very humble opinion, basic safety and common sense.

Edited August 4, 2016 by jelbe5

[Alicia64]

I'm freaked out just reading OP's initial post.

 

An older man has absolutely no business being alone with a 16 year old alone.

 

Alley

[Tammyla]

My concerns are that he creeps her out, ask her to stop work to play the piano, doesn't offer to help with the work and doesn't understand a 30 year old man shouldn't be pursuing a 16 year.  He may not be pursuing her, but his behavior and actions strongly suggest he is.  If he has a disability (mental) he still needs to be confronted and understand that this isn't appropriate.

 

The pastor needs to know, as this could be a liability and insurance issue for the church as well as just another ministry duty he or she needs to address.  I'm surprised at an employee being completely alone while working/cleaning.  Perhaps her schedule would be better set when the minister or another church member is there to address this and any other issues.

 

OP your dd could use some coaching on how to react in these or other situations.  She could tell him firmly, I'm working and you need to leave now. If he doesn't she should leave immediately.   Never accommodate someone who is ringing your gut alarm (creepy-meter); better to make him feel uncomfortable and aware of her needs vs. her enduring at best a creepy uncomfortable continuing situation.  

[Mergath]

I think the church needs to know, AND I think she needs to find a new part time job.

 

And...I am going to say something that might be a bit offensive.....but even if the guy does have a mental disability/illness/autisim/whatever....that doesn't mean he can't be a danger.

No one said he couldn't be.

[jewellsmommy]

See, I guess I think that if locked doors are required to protect her, then if he is really a creepy guy that the locks wouldn't necessarily stop him.  The building has a dozen full length windows easy enough to get into if someone wanted to break a window.  I guess I have always thought that locks were kind of useless in actually deterring bad things from happening.  

 

So, company or quitting is what I am thinking.  

 

I understand what you are saying. But this is what locks DO: they communicate to an an honest, well intentioned, law-abiding person that now is not the time to enter (for whatever reason). If someone tries the door and it is locked, then they understand and leave or knock. If someone chooses to answer, they say, sorry the church is closed for cleaning until 5 oclock. Then it will be re-opened. 

 

If the person tries to enter via window, then there is no second guessing the person's intentions. The person inside knows, without a doubt, to flee due to danger. It clearly communicates the intentions of the other person, unlike the situation you are describing where people are having to guess.

 

 

A Pastor should be tactful enough to have a conversation with this gentleman and communicate to him, without offense, that a church needs policies and guidelines etc. And that the church needs to be "closed for business" during cleaning regardless of who is cleaning at the time.

 

 

 

If you don't want to lock or quit then do this: Have the pastor have a conversation. Go with your dd. Post a sign CHURCH CLOSED FOR CLEANING TIL X'OCLOCK. PLEASE RETURN THEN. Put it up when you get there, take down when you leave.

 

If the guy enters anyway, after being told by the pastor and seeing the sign, then you pack up and leave with your dd right then because you have your answer.

Edited August 4, 2016 by jewellsmommy

[Alexigail]

If nothing else, this is a great opportunity to teach your daughter that listening to her gut and asking an adult for help is exactly what she should have done.  If she came to you and she's uncomfortable, as a mother I think that acknowledging her feelings and acting to protect her (whether it is a perceived OR actual threat) is the most important thing here.

[Saddlemomma]

This. Maybe it's because I don't believe every guy on the planet is a horny deviant on the verge of becoming a sexual predator, but it sounds to me like the guy is just lonely and probably mentally ill. The pastor should definitely talk to him since he's making the girl uncomfortable, but jeez people, put down the pitchforks. If the guy was a woman it would be a non-issue for most people.

 

I don't believe every guy on the planet is a deviant either, but most men in their 30's realize, in this day and age, that it's inappropriate to want to socialize alone with a teen girl.  It's also potentially dangerous for the guy.  Young girls are just as susceptible to claiming a guy has done something to them when nothing untoward has actually happened.

 

For instance, my DH is a photographer on the side.  He is VERY aware of the potential danger of being alone with a woman/teen client.  If he's taking senior photos for a teen, he will request the parents presence.  If the young lady doesn't want her parents to attend, or the parents can't due to scheduling issues, I AM ALWAYS WITH HIM during the shoot.  We also tell the parents that I will be with them during the shoot. You would not believe the expressed relief I get from the parents and their thanks for telling them. In fact, I make sure I attend every photo shoot regardless of who the clients are. Now my DH is about the most harmless man you will meet, but those parents don't know that, and we're not offended by their concerns.

 

Not every person is deviant or plotting nefarious activities, but we can't tell from outward appearances who is and who isn't.  We'd rather err on the side of caution.

 

This is done to protect both my DH from any false claims, and to assure the clients that their teen is safe.  We feel this is the prudent and responsible way to conduct business. I would think the church would also want to be prudent and cautious.  They don't need to accuse the young man, they just need to make him aware or remind him of the inappropriateness of the situation and put a stop to it.

[jewellsmommy]

The fair thing all the way around is to communicate.

 

Teach your dd to respect her gut and communicate that she needs different boundaries. She can be taught how to be tactful but firm. This is a hard life skill. I am honestly still learning the firm part myself. I can be a bit of a doormat and people pleaser.

 

This gentleman can benefit from pastoral guidance to observe societal constructs that, maybe, are more obvious to others than to him. 

[cintinative]

RESPECT HER GUT!!!!!!   God gave us a gut for a reason - and it's talking to her and she's hearing it. 

 

 

 

Just echoing this. I had an experience in college with a guy that gave me the creeps. Later on some stuff happened that totally and completely confirmed my feeling. I would not allow her to go there unescorted or leave unescorted.  I would definitely report to the church. They might write it off but at least you have said something. 

[trulycrabby]

OP, sorry for my multiple posts. I know you are on top of this situation and are handling it perfectly. This topic in general just hits a sore spot for me because I have dealt with predators and unwanted advances in the past.

[TranquilMind]

He's probably just lonely living out there by himself. But it's entirely understandable that she'd be uncomfortable being there by herself. Has she tried telling him that she's on the clock and she can't socialize while she's getting work done? Confrontation is hard, I know.

 

Are you sure there aren't any locks on the doors at all? This sounds extreme, but could she buy a bicycle lock to loop through the interior door handles while she's there, so no one can come inside? With the pastor's permission, I mean. I'm sure the pastor would understand safety concerns with her being there alone.

She should just lock the door while she is in there cleaning, especially if she can't hear because she is playing music.  I'm sure the pastor would be fine with that. 

[Nart]

So this guy was homeless and jobless and was given a cabin to stay in by the church. Why isn't he doing the cleaning job? It is nice your daughter is getting paid, but the church should encourage the guy to earn his keep. Instead of offering to help your daughter he wants her to play the piano for him. Did the church run any type of background check on this guy?

[TranquilMind]

So this guy was homeless and jobless and was given a cabin to stay in by the church. Why isn't he doing the cleaning job? It is nice your daughter is getting paid, but the church should encourage the guy to earn his keep. Instead of offering to help your daughter he wants her to play the piano for him. Did the church run any type of background check on this guy?

 

Those are good questions. 

[Tenaj]

Crash bars can usually be locked in some fashion . . . even if just from the inside.  Our church has crash bars, they lock with a tool similar to an allen wrench that locks the crash bar in place from the inside.

 

There is no way that *I* would go out to clean our rural church without being able to lock the doors, let alone let my teenage daughter do it, especially with a single guy occupying a cabin on or next to the property.

 

I'm jaded because of experiences our small church has had in the past!  A single man seemed to have repented while serving time in prison and started attending our church.  He attended faithfully for years (at least three) before I let down my guard.  Seemed like a good guy and all!  I finally invited him over for dinner several times at our house and six months later he bashed in the face of an elderly woman in our church just because she was bugging him.  She lost her eye.

 

I know we are to love but we are also to use common sense.  I think your church leaders need to quickly deal with the situation!

 

I've started googling everyone who visits our church, if that's creepy, so be it.  We've discovered three sex offenders in the past two years this way!  

[trulycrabby]

So this guy was homeless and jobless and was given a cabin to stay in by the church. Why isn't he doing the cleaning job? It is nice your daughter is getting paid, but the church should encourage the guy to earn his keep. Instead of offering to help your daughter he wants her to play the piano for him. Did the church run any type of background check on this guy?

Excellent, excellent questions.

[trulycrabby]

She should just lock the door while she is in there cleaning, especially if she can't hear because she is playing music. I'm sure the pastor would be fine with that.

But she would still be vulnerable while entering and leaving the church.

[heartlikealion]

So pretty much the only two choices it would seem would be for someone to go with her all the time or for her to quit.  I think I already knew that....just wanted to check with you all if there is something I hadn't thought of.

 

I was going to say or he could be somewhere else. Like if he got involved in something that meant he was gone several hours at a time. But even that is risky because he could call in sick or whatever and still be lingering around.

 

When I moved here and got involved in my church they gave me keys to the buildings and I had a chore to do sometimes. I am a grown woman and even I felt a little wiggy sometimes going there in the middle of the day just because of potentially having to interact with someone walking down the street or approaching the church. I would absolutely not feel good about my teenager being gone for hours at a time in a place where she couldn't even lock the doors. The church should get locks. Has anyone suggested this??

 

And let her give her job to the bored, lonely man.

 

That is my solution :/

[heartlikealion]

Oh yeah I want to add that it's not uncommon for random people to approach churches seeking money, etc. When I was a member of a parish that wasn't in a rural area I was at Adoration one night. We had a passcode to open the Adoration chapel. Usually there were two of us on duty. Thank goodness the other woman was there with me because a man approached the building asking for money or such and she gave him contact info. for the priest or whatever. I would have felt very vulnerable had I been alone despite having a code to lock the door.

[heartlikealion]

Poppy - see this is what I worry about.  Offending or hurting a lonely soul.  Putting locks on a building that never had locks on it before - wouldn't if be obvious that they were put there because of him? (Assuming locks were the answer in the first place.)

 

It just seems simpler and kinder (and possibly, safer)  to quit the job or try to rearrange my schedule so that I could always be there.  

 

ETA - I'm not sure how practical it would be to always accompany her, but I could try it for a few weeks and who knows, maybe he will have moved on by then.

 

Please address the issue, even if she quits. Next it could be another teen or a child that wanders off and runs into this man. The thing is to be proactive.

 

Full disclosure, I took a Protection of Children class at my church a few weeks ago. It's made me a little paranoid. I had to watch a video where real molesters spoke (I'm guessing part of a rehabilitation program). They earned the trust of others and took advantage.

 

Also if it was me, I'd have DH go there in a heartbeat. You want to intimidate a creepy man? Bring another man. He'd maybe go once so she could do her last job. And to possibly tell the guy to stay away or whatever.

Edited August 4, 2016 by heartlikealion

[AnthemLights]

Just a quick update - I am at work and don't have the time to reply individually, but thank you all for your input.  For those of you who have been hurt in the past by being too trusting, I am sorry and hope you can find healing.

 

I don't think I am naive.  I have watched enough crime shows to know the ugliness that is out there.   :crying:   Even though it has never personally touched my life.  Someone mentioned that churches/church people are often taken advantage of.  And I realize that.  With monetary things, I don't think it matters so much.  With my daughters safety, that's a whole different story.

 

We are dealing with the situation and above all I am going to do what I think best protects my daughter, which at this point would be quitting or having me there with her.  I honestly didn't think that this guy was dangerous.  I have talked with him several times after church and he seems (seemed?) harmless, but I guess you never can know.  I would rather be safe.

 

Maybe he is "creepier" than I thought.  When I went with her yesterday, he didn't drop by.  Although he might have been gone.  I asked my husband and he clarified for me that "Steve" is paying minimal rent so he must be making some money somewhere.

 

DD has a very variable schedule.  Basically all she needs to do is make sure that the building is clean for Sundays and for Wednesdays and any special events.  She sometimes cleans right after services or she waits half a week and cleans right before, depending on what else she has going on.  So, he is definitely watching for her and comes over whenever she is there.  Which sounds really creepy to me when I see it in writing.  Although, he just might hang around the church a lot.  His cabin is kinda tiny and he might feel like the church house is "open property."
 

I checked the doors and at this point there is definitely no way to lock them.  Although I am sure that can be fixed.  But I still would not be really comfortable with her going to and from the building.

 

So, anyhow, thanks for all your input.  Like I said, I think we are dealing with things, but it is good to hear everyone's input.

 

I am going to suggest locks on the doors and a sign closed for cleaning...that sounds like a good idea in general even if it is not my DD that is doing the cleaning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Garga]

Troubled people come to churches.

 

Some come in good faith because they're looking for help.

Some come because they are wolves among the sheep.

 

Some troubled people don't mean to cause trouble, but sometimes their ways catch up to them (perhaps the man in a PPs post who hit the elderly woman.)

Some troubled people cause no trouble at all and find peace.

And some of the troubled people don't care who they hurt, they have just found a bunch of victims who won't stand up to them and they have no intention of trying to change.

 

A church ought to do its best to love and care for people. Yet that doesn't exclude being wary. Isn't there a scripture about being as harmless as doves and wise as serpents. It's always a balancing act.

 

The church in this case cannot know what category this man falls in to. They need to be harmless (care for him, house him, and help him get a job), yet wise (don't let single women alone in the church with a man who has a troubled past.)

[heartlikealion]

Just a quick update - I am at work and don't have the time to reply individually, but thank you all for your input.  For those of you who have been hurt in the past by being too trusting, I am sorry and hope you can find healing.

 

I don't think I am naive.  I have watched enough crime shows to know the ugliness that is out there.   :crying:   Even though it has never personally touched my life.  Someone mentioned that churches/church people are often taken advantage of.  And I realize that.  With monetary things, I don't think it matters so much.  With my daughters safety, that's a whole different story.

 

We are dealing with the situation and above all I am going to do what I think best protects my daughter, which at this point would be quitting or having me there with her.  I honestly didn't think that this guy was dangerous.  I have talked with him several times after church and he seems (seemed?) harmless, but I guess you never can know.  I would rather be safe.

 

Maybe he is "creepier" than I thought.  When I went with her yesterday, he didn't drop by.  Although he might have been gone.  I asked my husband and he clarified for me that "Steve" is paying minimal rent so he must be making some money somewhere.

 

DD has a very variable schedule.  Basically all she needs to do is make sure that the building is clean for Sundays and for Wednesdays and any special events.  She sometimes cleans right after services or she waits half a week and cleans right before, depending on what else she has going on.  So, he is definitely watching for her and comes over whenever she is there.  Which sounds really creepy to me when I see it in writing.  Although, he just might hang around the church a lot.  His cabin is kinda tiny and he might feel like the church house is "open property."

 

I checked the doors and at this point there is definitely no way to lock them.  Although I am sure that can be fixed.  But I still would not be really comfortable with her going to and from the building.

 

So, anyhow, thanks for all your input.  Like I said, I think we are dealing with things, but it is good to hear everyone's input.

 

I am going to suggest locks on the doors and a sign closed for cleaning...that sounds like a good idea in general even if it is not my DD that is doing the cleaning.

 

I don't know if I'm the only one thinking this and I don't mean to sound like I think the worst of people, but I can't help but wonder, "what if he's a threat to you? Is your dd supposed to protect you?" I guess that's my biggest concern with having just one adult there and no males.

[AnthemLights]

Troubled people come to churches.

 

Some come in good faith because they're looking for help.

Some come because they are wolves among the sheep.

 

Some troubled people don't mean to cause trouble, but sometimes their ways catch up to them (perhaps the man in a PPs post who hit the elderly woman.)

Some troubled people cause no trouble at all and find peace.

And some of the troubled people don't care who they hurt, they have just found a bunch of victims who won't stand up to them and they have no intention of trying to change.

 

A church ought to do its best to love and care for people. Yet that doesn't exclude being wary. Isn't there a scripture about being as harmless as doves and wise as serpents. It's always a balancing act.

 

The church in this case cannot know what category this man falls in to. They need to be harmless (care for him, house him, and help him get a job), yet wise (don't let single women alone in the church with a man who has a troubled past.)

Garga, that's interesting that you posted that verse.  It's been very much on my mind concerning this situation.  And one that I use a lot in regards to giving or helping others.  It is indeed a balancing act. Hopefully helped along with God's guidance.   :001_smile:

[Lanny]

My DD will be 16 in October.  My wife and I would not permit her to be in that situation. It is not "possibly creepy", it is creepy.  

[AnthemLights]

I don't know if I'm the only one thinking this and I don't mean to sound like I think the worst of people, but I can't help but wonder, "what if he's a threat to you? Is your dd supposed to protect you?" I guess that's my biggest concern with having just one adult there and no males.

 

I guess I was thinking safety in numbers, we both have cell phones and there is good coverage.  The pastors house is a quarter mile away.  The church is along the main road although admittedly set back quite a ways.  

 

We could both carry mace or pepper spray.  We are used to doing that (pepper spray) for the threat of bears or other dangerous wild life.

 

Now you have me paranoid.... :tongue_smilie: But, yeah, something to think about.

[heartlikealion]

I guess I was thinking safety in numbers, we both have cell phones and there is good coverage.  The pastors house is a quarter mile away.  The church is along the main road although admittedly set back quite a ways.  

 

We could both carry mace or pepper spray.  We are used to doing that (pepper spray) for the threat of bears or other dangerous wild life.

 

Now you have me paranoid.... :tongue_smilie: But, yeah, something to think about.

 

I guess I'd have to be in your shoes to gauge my comfort level. I think having the sign up would be a good non verbal way of telling him not to approach to begin with so hopefully you don't have to have any confrontation.

[Xahm]

In college I was creeped on, so I know how hard it is to judge. In my case it was a foreign seminary student, and it was tricky to determine whether he was lonely and not good with American cultural norms or a real creep. Thankfully my friends banded around me, answering my sos whenever I found myself alone with him, and he backed off. The next girl he attached himself to had an anxiety attack in a prof's office, bringing this to the attention of higher ups. They told him his behavior was inappropriate (esp as a married man pursuing a ministry degree) and would lead to expulsion if he didn't knock it off.

I wish I'd gone to authorities myself, but I was young. Once they were involved, girls were protected and, in a way, he was protected from himself. (I don't think he would have done anything he considered rape, but if not obviously refused he would have convinced his lonely self that his actions were welcome) I'm glad your daughter has you to help her stand up for herself and keep her safe. Don't let it get swept under the rug. Letting the pastor know what's going on doesn't mean you are viciously out for this guy's blood (which is how I thought I'd have to feel to report my creeper).

Come to think of it, I had another creeper later that I simply avoided and put up with for far too long. It will be very good for your daughter to have an example of what to do now, before she leaves home.