WWYD - possibly creepy guy

[AnthemLights]

My daughter (16) has a job cleaning our church house.  There are many reasons she loves her job.   It's 4 hours twice a week, pay is decent....less than five miles from our home...she can do it on her own schedule....she gets to listen to her own music as loud as she wants to.  Pretty much an ideal job for her introvert self.

 

Recently though a guy started attending church, no home, no job.  Maybe mid to late 30's.  The church has a small cabin right next to the church house that he is now living in.  He seems to be a nice guy.  Although, maybe overly friendly?

 

Ever since he started living there (it's been less than 2 months), whenever dd comes to clean the church house, he drops in to say hi.  Kind of hangs around.  Asks her to play piano.  Which she enjoys doing but not necessarily for a guy she barely knows and it's just the two of them in otherwise empty building. :glare:  

 

He has never been inappropriate beyond just being there, but it makes her feel uncomfortable.  Which I totally get.  It freaks me out to think of her there by herself.  She didn't tell me what was going on until after it had happened a couple of times.  

 

Small church, small congregation.  I guess we pride ourselves on being friendly.  There are no locks on the building.  Everyone in our very rural community knows that the church house is always open, even if no one is there.  

 

Ds has taken to going with her the last couple of times, but it's a big chunk out of his day.  So not a good long term solution.  I hate to make her quit her job, but that seems to be the only solution. 

 

What do you all think?

 

 

 

[zoobie]

Listen to her gut! It's making her uncomfortable, and that's enough. Don't go alone.

[lllll]

nm

Edited October 5, 2016 by Cathi

[Epicurean]

He's probably just lonely living out there by himself. But it's entirely understandable that she'd be uncomfortable being there by herself. Has she tried telling him that she's on the clock and she can't socialize while she's getting work done? Confrontation is hard, I know.

 

Are you sure there aren't any locks on the doors at all? This sounds extreme, but could she buy a bicycle lock to loop through the interior door handles while she's there, so no one can come inside? With the pastor's permission, I mean. I'm sure the pastor would understand safety concerns with her being there alone.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Epicurean

[Scarlett]

Oh heck no. He needs to not go in the building when she is there alone. And since he lives next door, I would probably say she had to quit the job. But I would tell those in charge first so they can decide how to proceed.

[AnthemLights]

No, definitely no locks.  The doors are those metal ones (industrial?) with crash bars.  

 

The two times ds went along, he stopped in but didn't stay as long as previous times and didn't ask her to play the piano.  

 

If I went along, I think he would sit down and talk.  Brew some coffee maybe.  He really does seem kind of lonely, more than anything else.

[Pippen]

Even without the guy, I wouldn't have my daughter spending four hours alone in an unlocked building in a rural area. But with the unemployed, homeless guy dropping in? Not a chance, and I'd be letting the church leaders know that this isn't a suitable job for a young woman at this time.

 

Good for her for speaking up. It's important to teach our girls to listen to their gut. 

 

 

 

[Pippen]

No, definitely no locks.  The doors are those metal ones (industrial?) with crash bars.  

 

The two times ds went along, he stopped in but didn't stay as long as previous times and didn't ask her to play the piano.  

 

If I went along, I think he would sit down and talk.  Brew some coffee maybe.  He really does seem kind of lonely, more than anything else.

 

The single man living across the street is lonely too, but I don't want him dropping in on my teen daughter when she's home alone. 

[poppy]

Before quitting, try honesty.   "Hi Steve, you know what, I don't feel like I get my work done when we spend time together while I'm on the clock.  Good to see you, but I can't chat.  See you Sunday." Coach her to be friendly but firm.  Lonely guy without good boundaries should get the hint.  If he doesn't, the staff needs to know, and she needs a leave of absence from her job.

 

I had a man like that in my life who lived in the next apartment while I was in grad school.  He was very mildly mentally disabled, socially very inept, utterly lonely.  I felt bad for him and talked when I could. I extended grace because that's what I'd want for MY brother, who is very similar.  He is "one of those guys" thanks to a traumatic brain injury. But I also kept firm boundaries and protected myself from being a significant emotional support from a guy who was really just a random neighbor- not my personal responsibility.

Edited August 4, 2016 by poppy

[Anacharsis]

He's probably just lonely living out there by himself. But it's entirely understandable that she'd be uncomfortable being there by herself.

 

​Has anyone from the church come to visit him? If it's a loneliness issue, perhaps the easiest way to point him in the right direction is to get him friends his own age.

[Scarlett]

Before quitting, try honesty. "Hi Steve, you know what, I don't feel like I get my work done when we spend time together while I'm on the clock. Good to see you, but I can't chat. See you Sunday." Coach her to be friendly but firm. Lonely guy without good boundaries should get the hint. If he doesn't, the staff needs to know, and she needs a leave of absence from her job.

Exactly. Until the time he has moved out and away.

 

Sounds like an episode of Criminal minds. Shudder.

[AnthemLights]

The single man living across the street is lonely too, but I don't want him dropping in on my teen daughter when she's home alone. 

 

 

Very true, Pippen.  

[Scarlett]

What kind of grown man, lonely or otherwise, thinks it is a good idea to hang around a teen girl alone in an empty building.

[Scarlett]

And for the record I wouldn't want my 16 year old son in that situation.

[AnthemLights]

​Has anyone from the church come to visit him? If it's a loneliness issue, perhaps the easiest way to point him in the right direction is to get him friends his own age.

 

Yes, the guys from the church have all very much befriended him....but most (all?) guys his age are working during the day.  

[aaplank]

I would get the church involved. He is crossing boundaries that is not appropriate. I would also suggest your daughter quit this job until this guy moves on.

[ktgrok]

The pastor should be told, and the pastor can gently but firmly tell the man to stop bothering her while she works, that it isn't appropriate. Period. If this main is living off of the church's kindness he should listen to what the pastor says. If he can't he needs to move on. 

[DesertBlossom]

I don't know... maybe I am overly paranoid, but even just politely telling him that he's not to come around when she's working is not enough.  He might be a lonely, but otherwise normal guy.   But he might not be. And if he's not a nice guy and he knows that she spends several hours there by herself each week, it could be a really dangerous situation. I'd say either someone goes with her, or she quits.

 

[lllll]

nm

Edited October 5, 2016 by Cathi

[DesertBlossom]

What kind of grown man, lonely or otherwise, thinks it is a good idea to hang around a teen girl alone in an empty building.

 

Exactly. Even if he is a nice guy, the whole situation is inappropriate.

[Lady Marmalade]

I think this would be something to bring up to the church leadership- or whoever it is that your DD is responsible for reporting to with regards to the cleaning.  This is something my pastor would want to know about- regardless if the man is a harmless lonely guy.  My Pastor would NOT be okay with the situation you are describing.

 

 

[AnthemLights]

So why isn't this guy working like the rest of them do?

 

I don't know.  I am assuming that he is looking for a job.  I know that he has gone along with some of the guys sometimes on construction.  Honestly, though, I really don't know what he is thinking long term.  

[Anacharsis]

Yes, the guys from the church have all very much befriended him....but most (all?) guys his age are working during the day.  

 

​Hmm, that is a tough call, then. Often the homeless (and formerly homeless) are quite forceful in their friendliness because generally nobody wants to talk to them; learning to dial that back can take time. On the other hand, it could be something creepy, and nobody wants to ignore signs of a risk -- is there any way to find out if he talks up anyone he encounters during the day?

​

​Perhaps getting him involved in some kind of volunteer work, something that keeps him busy and social during the day might help.

[AnthemLights]

So pretty much the only two choices it would seem would be for someone to go with her all the time or for her to quit.  I think I already knew that....just wanted to check with you all if there is something I hadn't thought of.

 

[Seasider]

Even without the guy, I wouldn't have my daughter spending four hours alone in an unlocked building in a rural area. But with the unemployed, homeless guy dropping in? Not a chance, and I'd be letting the church leaders know that this isn't a suitable job for a young woman at this time.

 

Good for her for speaking up. It's important to teach our girls to listen to their gut.

I agree.

 

And I have to wonder about your church allowing him to stay in the cabin as he remains unemployed. The church isn't helping by giving him free accommodations if it isn't also helping him seek a job and/or job training. Maybe this is just a short term arrangement, but it's something I'd be asking the church staff about.

 

And my dd would not ever go there alone again, even if it meant changing jobs. This is really an unwise situation. The guy may be lonely and harmless, but what if your dd (i.e., any young girl he was pursuing alone) were a mischievous troublemaker and falsely accused him? He needs instructions from the church on not putting either of them in a position where anyone could assume anything. Since she works there, she has a reason to be there. He does not. At least there's no reason he has to be there the same time she is.

 

I would also speak to someone about the ability to lock doors when someone is working there alone. That lack of security is a recipe for trouble.

[PrincessMommy]

your daughter is underage. Most churches have something in place about adults being alone with underage children.  I know he's not a worker or anything, but this should still apply.  You should definitely talk to an elder or someone in charge.  Some people are clueless. It doesn't have to embarass or accuse him... just someone needs to tell him that there's a policy about being alone with underage kids at the church.

 

If something bad happens the church will be liable. 

Edited August 4, 2016 by PrincessMommy

[katilac]

Before quitting, try honesty.   "Hi Steve, you know what, I don't feel like I get my work done when we spend time together while I'm on the clock.  Good to see you, but I can't chat.  See you Sunday." Coach her to be friendly but firm.  

 

I honestly wouldn't be comfortable letting my teen handle this on their own, simply because it's such an isolated environment and such a weird situation. 

 

Why is he staying at the cabin? If the church is helping him out, okay, great on some levels, but no one thought anything of placing the apparently jobless, homeless, middle-aged man into housing right next to the continually unlocked church? That a teenage girl works alone in for several hours a week? 

 

He needs the "this is inappropriate speech" from the pastor and the "this is my daughter" speech from you and dh at a minimum. I personally would probably still not let her work without someone there, probably me or dh, but admittedly I probably would not want her working alone in an unlocked building in the first place. 

 

I don't know, the whole thing strikes me as creepy and inappropriate. 

[Janie Grace]

So pretty much the only two choices it would seem would be for someone to go with her all the time or for her to quit.  I think I already knew that....just wanted to check with you all if there is something I hadn't thought of.

 

No. The other choice is that you tell the pastor what is going on. He talks to the man about the inappropriateness/awkwardness of being in an empty building with a teenage girl. He also installs deadbolts on the doors of this building (not expensive). Dd continues to work there.

[marbel]

Sorry, but I'm stunned that this even a question.  No, she should not be there alone with this guy.  Sorry if he's lonely; maybe he should find something to do during the day.

 

I'll even go so far as to say if the pastor/leadership of the church are told about this and don't put a stop to it, I'd be questioning my involvement with the church.   

 

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by marbel

[AnthemLights]

No. The other choice is that you tell the pastor what is going on. He talks to the man about the inappropriateness/awkwardness of being in an empty building with a teenage girl. He also installs deadbolts on the doors of this building (not expensive). Dd continues to work there.

 

See, I guess I think that if locked doors are required to protect her, then if he is really a creepy guy that the locks wouldn't necessarily stop him.  The building has a dozen full length windows easy enough to get into if someone wanted to break a window.  I guess I have always thought that locks were kind of useless in actually deterring bad things from happening.  

 

So, company or quitting is what I am thinking.  

[ktgrok]

Yes, sorry, I said to contact the pastor, but forgot to say that locks need to be installed. Or she needs to quit. And honestly, with him right there, watching her come and go, I'd not be comfortable even with locks, if she drives or walks there herself.

[Katy]

I asked DH about this.  He said no normal adult man would think it was okay to follow a 16 year old girl around when she's alone.  Plus, she gets the creeps.  Tell the church.  They can either send someone to supervise her, put locks on the door so she is safe, or find an adult man to fill in for her for a while.  It is their responsibility to provide a safe working environment, and they aren't doing it.  And frankly I would INSIST they do one of those three options, not just tell him to quit.  It quite seriously sounds like he plans on making her a victim, whether he thinks of it that way or thinks she's flirting with him.

[Janie Grace]

See, I guess I think that if locked doors are required to protect her, then if he is really a creepy guy that the locks wouldn't necessarily stop him.  The building has a dozen full length windows easy enough to get into if someone wanted to break a window.  I guess I have always thought that locks were kind of useless in actually deterring bad things from happening.  

 

So, company or quitting is what I am thinking.  

 

If locked doors aren't enough to protect her, how is her brother being there adequate? Is he armed? A Navy Seal? If you are so uncomfortable with her being there that deadbolts aren't enough security, she needs to not set foot on the property again.

[bettyandbob]

If you can't make a schedule to be with her while she works, then I would advise quitting. 

 

When she gives notice, you should explain the situation. Perhaps it's as simple as someone at church needs to coach the man on appropriate social behavior. However you do not know enough to evaluate the situation. Also if the problem is his poor social judgement, he may also not have the ability to read any social cues you, your ds, or your dd give, which can lead to dangerous issues based on his misinterpretation.

 

It's just too big a risk for your dd.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Diana P.

[AnthemLights]

Sorry, but I'm stunned that this even a question.  No, she should not be there alone with this guy.  Sorry if he's lonely; maybe he should find something to do during the day.

 

I'll even go so far as to say if the pastor/leadership of the church are told about this and don't put a stop to it, I'd be questioning my involvement with the church.   

Marbel, believe me, she is not going to be there anymore by herself.  Two times before last ds went with her, today I did.  My question was is there any way that she can keep this job which she dearly, dearly loves.  

 

And I am not sure how the church can put a stop to it....short of kicking him out.  Even if they tell him to stop, IF he is a creepy guy would that stop him?

[trulycrabby]

No way would I let my son or daughter work there under these circumstances. Even if locks were installed, I would no be comfortable with the person being in the general vicinity-he could approach her when she is going to and from the car to the building. I would not want the teen alone with any adult in such a remote, isolated setting.

 

I know she lovees the job, but her safety comes first, especially, especially since her inner warning bells are being set off.

Edited August 4, 2016 by trulycrabby

[Plink]

Most crash bars lock with an alan wrench from the inside.  

 

 

Another vote for "trust her gut."  She needs to feel supported by you in taking care of herself.

[Scarlett]

Marbel, believe me, she is not going to be there anymore by herself. Two times before last ds went with her, today I did. My question was is there any way that she can keep this job which she dearly, dearly loves.

 

And I am not sure how the church can put a stop to it....short of kicking him out. Even if they tell him to stop, IF he is a creepy guy would that stop him?

And even if they kick him out....he knows her schedule.....what keeps him from coming back around.

[trulycrabby]

I asked DH about this. He said no normal adult man would think it was okay to follow a 16 year old girl around when she's alone. Plus, she gets the creeps. Tell the church. They can either send someone to supervise her, put locks on the door so she is safe, or find an adult man to fill in for her for a while. It is their responsibility to provide a safe working environment, and they aren't doing it. And frankly I would INSIST they do one of those three options, not just tell him to quit. It quite seriously sounds like he plans on making her a victim, whether he thinks of it that way or thinks she's flirting with him.

I agree. He is not just lonely, he is interested in your daughter.

[Scarlett]

See, I guess I think that if locked doors are required to protect her, then if he is really a creepy guy that the locks wouldn't necessarily stop him. The building has a dozen full length windows easy enough to get into if someone wanted to break a window. I guess I have always thought that locks were kind of useless in actually deterring bad things from happening.

 

So, company or quitting is what I am thinking.

Yes. This.

[Anne in CA]

Marbel, believe me, she is not going to be there anymore by herself.  Two times before last ds went with her, today I did.  My question was is there any way that she can keep this job which she dearly, dearly loves.  

 

And I am not sure how the church can put a stop to it....short of kicking him out.  Even if they tell him to stop, IF he is a creepy guy would that stop him?

If they tell him to stop and he doesn't, they need to kick him out. If they tell him to stop and he doesn't and they don't kick him out, you need a new church. Period.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Just chiming in as another who would put an end to the job, even if the church steps up to the plate with conversations and locks. The isolation is the problem, when he's already targeted her for constant attention that she does not want.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

He has never been inappropriate beyond just being there, but it makes her feel uncomfortable.  Which I totally get.  It freaks me out to think of her there by herself.  She didn't tell me what was going on until after it had happened a couple of times.  

 

RESPECT HER GUT!!!!!!   God gave us a gut for a reason - and it's talking to her and she's hearing it. 

I would start with the minister and let him know what is happening and that she is very uncomfortable and would like his help in getting this guy to stop coming in while she is cleaning.  (he invited the guy to live there.)  if the minister brushes off her concerns - I'd be reporting him to his supervisors and looking for a new church.  I'm serious.

 

eta: at this stage - locks are for show.  she has to come and go to get to her car - and she is vulnerable at that point.

Edited August 4, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

Before quitting, try honesty.   "Hi Steve, you know what, I don't feel like I get my work done when we spend time together while I'm on the clock.  Good to see you, but I can't chat.  See you Sunday." Coach her to be friendly but firm.  Lonely guy without good boundaries should get the hint.  If he doesn't, the staff needs to know, and she needs a leave of absence from her job.

 

I had a man like that in my life who lived in the next apartment while I was in grad school.  He was very mildly mentally disabled, socially very inept, utterly lonely.  I felt bad for him and talked when I could. I extended grace because that's what I'd want for MY brother, who is very similar.  He is "one of those guys" thanks to a traumatic brain injury. But I also kept firm boundaries and protected myself from being a significant emotional support from a guy who was really just a random neighbor- not my personal responsibility.

 

 

it's also very possible to be just an odd lonely duck with awkwardness, and NOT trigger uncomfortable feelings.  this guy is making her uncomfortable, probably over and above his loneliness.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Katy]

it's also very possible to be just an odd lonely duck with awkwardness, and NOT trigger uncomfortable feelings.  this guy is making her uncomfortable, probably over and above his loneliness.

 

His motivations don't really matter.  Awkward people are often predators because they don't have the social skills to have compassion and understand when they are being creepy.  When the target of their interest is being friendly, not interested.

 

I know I've been flashed by several adult men throughout my childhood, and in every case the man didn't fully comprehend that my friendliness didn't mean I was flirting with them.  I know they didn't because they were all MR.  Their lack of understanding doesn't mean they don't victimize others.  Many sex offenders of small children insist that toddlers are flirting with them and want to have sex with them.  Awkwardness and not understanding are not valid excuses.

[gardenmom5]

His motivations don't really matter.  Awkward people are often predators because they don't have the social skills to have compassion and understand when they are being creepy.  When the target of their interest is being friendly, not interested.

 

I know I've been flashed by several adult men throughout my childhood, and in every case the man didn't fully comprehend that my friendliness didn't mean I was flirting with them.  I know they didn't because they were all MR.  Their lack of understanding doesn't mean they don't victimize others.  Many sex offenders of small children insist that toddlers are flirting with them and want to have sex with them.  Awkwardness and not understanding are not valid excuses.

 

My post was in response to poppy's

 I've known awkward people who were just . . . awkward. 

 

this guy is giving her the creeps.  that's over and above awkward.

 

poppy, on 03 Aug 2016 - 6:56 PM, said:

Before quitting, try honesty.   "Hi Steve, you know what, I don't feel like I get my work done when we spend time together while I'm on the clock.  Good to see you, but I can't chat.  See you Sunday." Coach her to be friendly but firm.  Lonely guy without good boundaries should get the hint.  If he doesn't, the staff needs to know, and she needs a leave of absence from her job.

 

I had a man like that in my life who lived in the next apartment while I was in grad school.  He was very mildly mentally disabled, socially very inept, utterly lonely.  I felt bad for him and talked when I could. I extended grace because that's what I'd want for MY brother, who is very similar.  He is "one of those guys" thanks to a traumatic brain injury. But I also kept firm boundaries and protected myself from being a significant emotional support from a guy who was really just a random neighbor- not my personal responsibility.

[AnthemLights]

Poppy - see this is what I worry about.  Offending or hurting a lonely soul.  Putting locks on a building that never had locks on it before - wouldn't if be obvious that they were put there because of him? (Assuming locks were the answer in the first place.)

 

It just seems simpler and kinder (and possibly, safer)  to quit the job or try to rearrange my schedule so that I could always be there.  

 

ETA - I'm not sure how practical it would be to always accompany her, but I could try it for a few weeks and who knows, maybe he will have moved on by then.

Edited August 4, 2016 by AnthemLights

[Melissa in Australia]

What kind of grown man, lonely or otherwise, thinks it is a good idea to hang around a teen girl alone in an empty building.

someone with a mental illness- seeing as he was homless before the church took him on I would think he does have a mental illness of some sort. 

[Melissa in Australia]

different situation completely

 

when I was working  in aged care I had a client that I would go and clean her house. She was a very old practically bedridden lady, who had her grandson living there. I was around 25 he was in his mid 30s. he would follow me around from room to room just a meter or so behind me. in the beginning it really freaked me out. But it turned out he had high functioning autism and he thought he was getting along great with me. It wasn't so creepy any more.

[StephanieZ]

I would take this opportunity to reign in a very dangerous practice of having one person, alone, in an unlocked church building, EVER.

 

It is VERY dangerous. The church should not allow it! You should not allow it! 

 

Safety precautions should require two people there at all times. The only exception would be if someone was there and had all the doors locked. For sure. Even that is risky!