Because "well, they were both drunk, so..." comes up so often in discussions about rape...

[EmseB]

No, I'm saying that a guy can be literally caught inside an unconscious woman, he gets 6 months and she gets called an idiot.

On what planet is this good enough?

Again, not controlling for internet commenters, there are appeals and petitions and elections to try to remedy the miscarriage of justice.

 

You seem to be making a lot of arguments or one liners from emotion but ignoring the practicality of your assertions. I have tried to ask direct questions to find out your thoughts on these issues, almost to no avail. Which is obviously fine, people can choose how to participate in threads however they want. But, injustice happens and we do our best to remedy the situation. You can say it's not good enough, and I can agree, we can sign a petition, but if we lived in a perfect world this wouldn't have happened in the first place. So, I think we all do what we can do where we're at, but, at least in my case, that has very little to do with discussing the philosophical, legal, and practical implications of sex, drinking, drugs, rape/hookup culture, and how it all works itself out in society. The discussion on a message board is academic and abstract for me, it's an outlet for rhetorical exercise, and an interaction I appreciate. But there's no discussion or response to what you've posted except, "yep, I agree with you".

Edited June 6, 2016 by JodiSue

[LMD]

I'm pretty sure I answered when you quoted me. But I admit that I did step away for a while to sleep.

 

You and others have completely ignored factual arguments and statistics. You and others continue to argue about an almost non existent grey area.

 

This is one case, what we are saying is that both the sentence and tone of conversation are so darn predictable.

 

People are doing their best to try and remedy the situation for around a quarter of women who will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime, but apparently it's too hard to understand and unfair?

[Guest]

This is an area where my opinions have changed in recent years. It's so easy to get into victim blaming accidentally while discussing this, but when I frame it like I view any other violent crime it becomes crystal clear. There are two issues at play in a lot of these cases - the way the school handles it and the way the law does - but in neither of these circumstances is the victim even partially at fault for the crime.

 

It's notable that in recent years more and more cases of botched handling of these rapes by colleges are coming forward. Everything from mishandling evidence and shutting up victims to not allowing legal representation of defense of the accused before they are shut out of classes and housing. Problems on both sides.

 

The correct way for universities to deal with this is to immediately forward ALL rapes or accusations of rape immediately to the local authorities. Don't handle it in house. Don't protect or question anyone. If the situation is actively unsafe then immediately accomodate the victim with individual student housing or whatever it takes to secure her/him, and leave all attendance and scholarship questions open until an investigation has been launched and a jury has decided. It gets problematic as soon as they try to deal with this in house. Just no. Make it a priority and send it up the chain to the police. Every time. Right away.

 

Alcohol and campus life are problems, sure, but not every drunk person rapes. And in cases where both parties are drunk, only the rapist is raping. The other drunk party is somehow managing to not violate another person's rights and safety while drunk. Alcohol and socializing is something I don't like and don't engage in, never did, but it NEVER *causes* a rape. A rapist causes a rape. Every time.

 

I sometimes have a hard time not victim blaming or questioning circumstances in these cases, just as a matter of habit. And in making a safer situation in the future there are some things that can be addressed in how we teach our children to handle themselves and those around them (and how schools and law enforcement can be fair and speedy in investigating these crimes - big failures here too). But I can't get around that of someone who wants to commit a crime, any crime, will do so regardless of the laws and protections in place. That goes for gun crimes, burglaries, rapes, and any other violent crime. These criminals use opportunity and circumstance to their advantage, but they are by definition breaking laws and disregarding the health and safety of others for their own purposes. In none of these cases, no matter the opportunity, is the victim at fault for the crime. Only the criminal decides to cross the line of violating another person.

 

That's my .02. My heart goes out to all those who have been violated and victimized in a violent crime, rape or otherwise. It's nobody's fault but the person perpetrating the crime. Full stop. I admit I used to question the behavior of the victims as a possible contributing factor but this just isn't morally or intellectually consistent for me. It's bleed over from the cultural way rape is handled here in America and I can't go along with it anymore. It's hard to look at these premises and question them for subtle biases but I think it must be done if we want to make any progress in handling this type of crime right and justly for the victims and perpetrators, both. Justice means not blurring the lines of circumstance and culpability - alcohol isn't the crime. Campus life isn't the crime. Hookups aren't the crime (they're a big problem but a separate one). Rape is the crime and no amount of circumstance crosses that line to where the victim isn't a victim anymore because of something they supposedly did to 'enable' or 'entice' the criminal.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[LMD]

And yes, I'm angry. I have done my best to make my pronouns neutral and keep to the facts.

 

You might also get angry if you look at the 'brock Turner for 2016 Olympics' Facebook page and read lovely, predictable comments like this:

 

"The outpouring of love and supportive emails I continue to receive is amazing and reaffirms my faith in the good people of this country. We MUST continue to teach our girls about the dangers of binge drinking and promiscuity. Keep control of yourselves and don't dress like s*uts and everything will be just fine. "

 

Remember, this guy was caught in the act and found guilty in court.

[EmseB]

And yes, I'm angry. I have done my best to make my pronouns neutral and keep to the facts.

 

You might also get angry if you look at the 'brock Turner for 2016 Olympics' Facebook page and read lovely, predictable comments like this:

 

"The outpouring of love and supportive emails I continue to receive is amazing and reaffirms my faith in the good people of this country. We MUST continue to teach our girls about the dangers of binge drinking and promiscuity. Keep control of yourselves and don't dress like s*uts and everything will be just fine. "

 

Remember, this guy was caught in the act and found guilty in court.

I visited it for a bit, but a)did not realize it was actually him posting in the page (is it?) and b)feel well aware of how disgusting and vile the internet can actually be. If I spent time being angry about gross comments on the internet it would consume me. I wouldn't be able to sleep.

 

But I think the vile-ness expressed in this case on the internet is quite separate from an academic discussion on a board about different circumstances and legal aspects of affirmative consent laws and the like.

 

As for statistics you provided, it's been discussed that perhaps they are arguable, as most statistics used to make an emotional punch often are. Call me cynical, but I don't simply take them at face value. Especially since according to one statistic I read it would lump me into a category that I don't think is an accurate description of what I personally experienced. So I'm dubious.

[swimmermom3]

This is an area where my opinions have changed in recent years. It's so easy to get into victim blaming accidentally while discussing this, but when I frame it like I view any other violent crime it becomes crystal clear. There are two issues at play in a lot of these cases - the way the school handles it and the way the law does - but in neither of these circumstances is the victim even partially at fault for the crime.

 

It's notable that in recent years more and more cases of botched handling of these rapes by colleges are coming forward. Everything from mishandling evidence and shutting up victims to not allowing legal representation of defense of the accused before they are shut out of classes and housing. Problems on both sides.

 

The correct way for universities to deal with this is to immediately forward ALL rapes or accusations of rape immediately to the local authorities. Don't handle it in house. Don't protect or question anyone. If the situation is actively unsafe then immediately accomodate the victim with individual student housing or whatever it takes to secure her/him, and leave all attendance and scholarship questions open until an investigation has been launched and a jury has decided. It gets problematic as soon as they try to deal with this in house. Just no. Make it a priority and send it up the chain to the police. Every time. Right away.

 

Alcohol and campus life are problems, sure, but not every drunk person rapes. And in cases where both parties are drunk, only the rapist is raping. The other drunk party is somehow managing to not violate another person's rights and safety while drunk. Alcohol and socializing is something I don't like and don't engage in, never did, but it NEVER *causes* a rape. A rapist causes a rape. Every time.

 

I sometimes have a hard time not victim blaming or questioning circumstances in these cases, just as a matter of habit. And in making a safer situation in the future there are some things that can be addressed in how we teach our children to handle themselves and those around them (and how schools and law enforcement can be fair and speedy in investigating these crimes - big failures here too). But I can't get around that of someone who wants to commit a crime, any crime, will do so regardless of the laws and protections in place. That goes for gun crimes, burglaries, rapes, and any other violent crime. These criminals use opportunity and circumstance to their advantage, but they are by definition breaking laws and disregarding the health and safety of others for their own purposes. In none of these cases, no matter the opportunity, is the victim at fault for the crime. Only the criminal decides to cross the line of violating another person.

 

That's my .02. My heart goes out to all those who have been violated and victimized in a violent crime, rape or otherwise. It's nobody's fault but the person perpetrating the crime. Full stop. I admit I used to question the behavior of the victims as a possible contributing factor but this just isn't morally or intellectually consistent for me. It's bleed over from the cultural way rape is handled here in America and I can't go along with it anymore. It's hard to look at these premises and question them for subtle biases but I think it must be done if we want to make any progress in handling this type of crime right and justly for the victims and perpetrators, both. Justice means not blurring the lines of circumstance and culpability - alcohol isn't the crime. Campus life isn't the crime. Hookups aren't the crime (they're a big problem but a separate one). Rape is the crime and no amount of circumstance crosses that line to where the victim isn't a victim anymore because of something they supposedly did to 'enable' or 'entice' the criminal.

 

I am all out of likes, but thank you. That really is the core thought that it all comes down to.

 

 

[LMD]

The vileness is not internet specific, the same rhetoric comes up in every single conversation.

 

Then provide counter statistics. You want to discuss 'different circumstances' but there is less than a handful of those cases- and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe any of the falsely accused were convicted?

 

Prove to me that there is an actual trend of women changing their minds after casual hookups and having the men arrested. I do not believe it. Why is this a big fear?

 

I have answered the practicality of my assertions, more than once. So have others.

 

We are trying to call this out because the accepted statistics - that you are dubious of - just do not agree with you. It is false, it is damaging, it provides little to no actual protection, it does not solve the issue and does not help the hurt.

 

I find your accusation that I'm using statistics to make an emotional punch quite nasty actually.

[Paige]

I don't understand what fuzzy consent issues have to do with this case. He was caught in the act with an unconscious woman. If someone is unconscious, you stop- period. Whether she consented before or not; you stop. Maybe, you don't act like a monster, and get the unconscious person some help, or at least not shove foreign objects in her. The facts of what she did before she passed out shouldn't matter. He was conscious, she was not. Therefore, penetration is a no-go. I don't believe she consented before she passed out, fwiw, but even if she did, she didn't consent to anything after that. BS if he claims to not know she passed out. 

 

It's kind of like borrowing money- if I say you can have $5 while I'm conscious, it doesn't mean that if I pass out, you can take whatever cash is in my wallet and all my credit cards too. You don't get to take any more money in any form.

[FaithManor]

I don't understand what fuzzy consent issues have to do with this case. He was caught in the act with an unconscious woman. If someone is unconscious, you stop- period. Whether she consented before or not; you stop. Maybe, you don't act like a monster, and get the unconscious person some help, or at least not shove foreign objects in her. The facts of what she did before she passed out shouldn't matter. He was conscious, she was not. Therefore, penetration is a no-go. I don't believe she consented before she passed out, fwiw, but even if she did, she didn't consent to anything after that. BS if he claims to not know she passed out. 

 

It's kind of like borrowing money- if I say you can have $5 while I'm conscious, it doesn't mean that if I pass out, you can take whatever cash is in my wallet and all my credit cards too. You don't get to take any more money in any form.

This is very true. Very, very true. People are focused on the circumstances in which she was found to be unconscious.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I haven't read the replies here but it weighs heavy on me that a privileged Stanford kid can walk away with 6 months in county jail after raping a girl behind a dumpster and the 16 year old kid from the wrong side of the tracks in the "jail to Yale" story served 8 years for stealing a car. Wow, just wow. That's all I have to say.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Attolia

[Joanne]

Since it doesn't seem to have been posted yet:

 

Ten rape prevention tips:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

There are too many issues to respond to in this thread to use the quote feature. So, I am going to just type and post. The issue of male rape on female victims is way more convoluted and complicated and sick and twisted than we have talked about. Why? Because our culture and values shape, form, and exacerbate it.

 

For example, the sin factor. People (usually religious) respond to what they consider sinful behavior. The victim in this case over-drank. That our culture tends to judge harshly the sin factor, and apply the sin factor judgment almost exclusively to woman goes unacknowledged.

 

Slut-shaming. Slut shaming contributes to rape culture in many formative and exacerbating ways.

 

Not allowing women ownership of their sexuality and power; limiting access to reproductive choice, imposing modesty standards.

 

Elevating women's virginity to an absurd status contributes to rape culture. Celebrating virginity is common in several religions. All patriarchal. Just saying.

Sports culture and all the ways it plays out.

 

Celebrating and literally buying material that celebrates men's power over women: 50 Shades of Grey, Twighlight.

 

Celebrity status: Bill Cosby, dozens of others

 

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Joanne

[goldberry]

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/06/brock-turners-friend-pens-letter-of-support.html

 

Brock Turner’s Childhood Friend Blames His Felony Sexual-Assault Conviction on Political Correctness

 

" rape on campuses isn’t always because people are rapists."  :confused1:

Edited June 7, 2016 by goldberry

[swimmermom3]

And yes, I'm angry. I have done my best to make my pronouns neutral and keep to the facts.

 

You might also get angry if you look at the 'brock Turner for 2016 Olympics' Facebook page and read lovely, predictable comments like this:

 

"The outpouring of love and supportive emails I continue to receive is amazing and reaffirms my faith in the good people of this country. We MUST continue to teach our girls about the dangers of binge drinking and promiscuity. Keep control of yourselves and don't dress like s*uts and everything will be just fine. "

 

Remember, this guy was caught in the act and found guilty in court.

 

Apparently the page was reported for hate speech and was taken down by Facebook. If you are a rape apologist, you might attract fellow misogynists who like to take the rhetoric to a whole other level. I would bet that Turner's supporters didn't quite count on that side of the equation. 

 

[TechWife]

I am not sure when his sentence runs, but he will not be participating in the Olympic trials later this month even if he is not incarcerated at the time. 

 

According to USA Swimming, he is not eligible for a membership, which he would have to have in order to participate in the trials. I am actually unclear if he had a qualifying time to get him to the trials and I don't really want to do the research. His membership in the organization lapsed quite a while ago, so I really think he probably did not. A young woman I know has qualified for the trials and her qualifying time has been completed within the past few months. 

 

 

[Corraleno]

Well how about that.

Why are you only now seeing the Stanford Sex Offender's Mugshot?

 

What's even more disgusting is that's not even the real mugshot; it was a decoy. It was his booking photo, when he was nice and cleaned up. A journalist finally got the real mugshot â€” a kid in a sweatshirt with longer, messy hair and bloodshot eyes. I wonder how much daddy paid to try to keep that out of the papers?

 

It was the same deal with Owen Labrie — virtually all the photos of him in the media showed a nice, clean-cut kid with neat, dark hair and glasses, the perfect smart nerdy schoolboy. His actual mugshot shows a much older looking guy with greasy, messy, lighter hair and a surly expression, but that photo barely saw the light of day.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Corraleno

[forty-two]

Thanks to this thread, I just had a realization: part of rape culture is this sense that there's this thin line between consensual sex and rape - so that all it takes to go from consensual sex to sexual assault is for a person "go a little too far". And on top of that, often there's a sense that the line is blurry, so that people of good will can't even always tell exactly where it is in any given situation. And so it makes it feel like *anyone* could be at risk to "accidentally" take a step over the unclear-to-begin-with line - because who hasn't gone farther than they meant to (in something) in a moment of stupidity or lowered inhibitions.

And I realized that I had sort of had that assumption in my head. But actually the path that leads to sexual assault is an entirely different path than the path that leads to morally good sex. (Which I realize that sexual assault prevention advocates have been saying over and over - I get it now.) Even rape culture acknowledges that good people don't sexually assault their partners. But rape culture assumes that sexual assault happens when you "go too far" along the sexual activity continuum - being a good person means that you stay on the "right side" of the line. And that makes sexual ethics focus on where the line is and how to avoid going over it. But when you see the "consensual sexual activity" continuum as *entirely separate* from the "sexual assault" continuum, then "being a good person" in the realm of sexual ethics involves both refusing to take a single step on the path to sexual assault *and* also affirmatively walking on a path that leads to moral sex. Which is the point of affirmative consent: to not just avoid forcing unwanted sex on others, but to actively seek to walk another, better path. It makes "being a good person" involve more than just "avoiding going too far" - to involve seeking the good in addition to (completely) avoiding (even a hint of) the bad.

Edited June 7, 2016 by forty-two

[EmseB]

The vileness is not internet specific, the same rhetoric comes up in every single conversation.

 

Then provide counter statistics. You want to discuss 'different circumstances' but there is less than a handful of those cases- and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe any of the falsely accused were convicted?

 

Prove to me that there is an actual trend of women changing their minds after casual hookups and having the men arrested. I do not believe it. Why is this a big fear?

 

I have answered the practicality of my assertions, more than once. So have others.

 

We are trying to call this out because the accepted statistics - that you are dubious of - just do not agree with you. It is false, it is damaging, it provides little to no actual protection, it does not solve the issue and does not help the hurt.

 

I find your accusation that I'm using statistics to make an emotional punch quite nasty actually.

My point is they are not accepted by everyone without caveat and they are used to make an argument by shocking and appealing to emotion. I have made no statistical claims. I have related my experience from hanging out at parties with many, many drunk people when I was younger. I have personally witnessed how difficult it would be and is to apply some of the standards discussed against those situations, which were not in any way uncommon, but, as someone else stated earlier aren't exactly easy to quantify. I don't have anything personally against you, I just disagree that you have provided answers beyond an appeal to emotion (i.e. we all want to "support the victim" as you stated, but what does that look like practically in an "innocent until proven guilty" justice system? Just one example). You've also misunderstood or misinterpreted what I mean by circumstances in the post I quoted above.

 

Further, people want to use one case (like this one from the OP) to make an argument or broad, blanket statements. It was the same in the RS thread. One case is used to extrapolate about a larger problem. However, if multiple cases of highly publicized rape hoaxes or false accusations are cited, they are minimized as "just a handful" and representative of nothing. Keep in mind that at the beginning of the thread people asked for these examples, they weren't provided out of the blue in some attempt to minimize what happened to the victim in the OP or to in anyway suggest she was making a false claim or to make a statistical claim. It was already a tangential discussion by that point, but more than once someone asked for examples.

 

Honestly, though, I was responding to your ideas, but had no intention to be personally nasty. I'm sure that you truly believe the statistics you're using, but I'm sure you're also aware they are not without controversy or debate. There are people making the arguments you make who acknowledge the difficulty of sussing out what is and is not sexual assault, and that the wording of the questions can greatly vary the answers and final results.

 

I don't think anyone here has made any argument that raping an unconscious person, or doing anything sexually with an unconscious person is ever ok or excusable. If you can find it in the thread, I'll eat my words. The accusation is, of course, that any discussion outside of that incident about being careful with one's drink or limiting alcohol intake, or staying away from parties where the guys are known to be skeevy, or guys not having sex with people when they are drunk....That those things are seen as being apologetic for rape or sexual assault. I simply don't see it that way. There is no other area of life where concern for personal safety is seen as victim blaming. We don't think advising kids to use condoms means they deserve an std if they don't. We advise kids to wear helmets but don't mean they deserve a concussion if they don't. We advise them not to carry too much cash but don't mean it is their fault if they get mugged. I would advise my kids not to get blackout drunk, but just like any other personal safety advice I don't think they deserve to be raped if they do. It's an after the fact, abstract discussion on a message board, it is not "I told you so" to a rape victim. There is a difference whether people want to be obtuse about it or not. And, no, I'm not foolish enough to think that any amount of personal safety advice can keep me safe from possible harm. I don't think I'm any better than the young woman from the OP. The bottom line is, of course, that the perpetrator of any crime is solely responsible for that crime no matter how many precautions one does or does not take.

Edited June 7, 2016 by JodiSue

[ktgrok]

 But rape culture assumes that sexual assault happens when you "go too far" along the sexual activity continuum - being a good person means that you stay on the "right side" of the line. And that makes sexual ethics focus on where the line is and how to avoid going over it. But when you see the "consensual sexual activity" continuum as *entirely separate* from the "sexual assault" continuum, then "being a good person" in the realm of sexual ethics involves both refusing to take a single step on the path to sexual assault *and* also affirmatively walking on a path that leads to moral sex. Which is the point of affirmative consent: to not just avoid forcing unwanted sex on others, but to actively seek to walk another, better path. It makes "being a good person" involve more than just "avoiding going too far" - to involve seeking the good in addition to (completely) avoiding (even a hint of) the bad.

 

I can't like this enough. That is it, in a nutshell. In fact, @Forty-Two, could I quote you outside of this forum? Just on my personal Facebook page? (anonymously). If not, that's fine too, but it's such a good description I don't think I could do better on my own. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by ktgrok

[FaithManor]

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/06/brock-turners-friend-pens-letter-of-support.html

 

Brock Turner’s Childhood Friend Blames His Felony Sexual-Assault Conviction on Political Correctness

 

" rape on campuses isn’t always because people are rapists."  :confused1:

:cursing:  :smash:  :smash:  :smash:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :cursing:

 

The tiki torches are lit, we've gathered around the fire, I slowly make my way to the parchment and sharpie, and staring intently into the camera I whisper, "I'm voting this one off the island because if he doesn't go, LMD and I are going to give him a lobotomy tomorrow night."

[ktgrok]

:cursing:  :smash:  :smash:  :smash:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :cursing:

 

The tiki torches are lit, we've gathered around the fire, I slowly make my way to the parchment and sharpie, and staring intently into the camera I whisper, "I'm voting this one off the island because if he doesn't go, LMD and I are going to give him a lobotomy tomorrow night."

 

Mind you, that was a WOMAN friend of his saying that. 

[FaithManor]

Mind you, that was a WOMAN friend of his saying that. 

Oh yes, we vote Brock off and his woman friend, and they both get free lobotomies unless they leave the island ASAP! I'm comfortable with that. Really.  :)

[Scarlett]

Since it doesn't seem to have been posted yet:

 

Ten rape prevention tips:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1. Don’t put drugs in women’s drinks.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

8. Use the Buddy System! If it is inconvenient for you to stop yourself from raping women, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

There are too many issues to respond to in this thread to use the quote feature. So, I am going to just type and post. The issue of male rape on female victims is way more convoluted and complicated and sick and twisted than we have talked about. Why? Because our culture and values shape, form, and exacerbate it.

 

For example, the sin factor. People (usually religious) respond to what they consider sinful behavior. The victim in this case over-drank. That our culture tends to judge harshly the sin factor, and apply the sin factor judgment almost exclusively to woman goes unacknowledged.

 

Slut-shaming. Slut shaming contributes to rape culture in many formative and exacerbating ways.

 

Not allowing women ownership of their sexuality and power; limiting access to reproductive choice, imposing modesty standards.

 

Elevating women's virginity to an absurd status contributes to rape culture. Celebrating virginity is common in several religions. All patriarchal. Just saying.

Sports culture and all the ways it plays out.

 

Celebrating and literally buying material that celebrates men's power over women: 50 Shades of Grey, Twighlight.

 

Celebrity status: Bill Cosby, dozens of others

 

 

Just wanted to say that I personally don't subscribe to anything on your second list.  Not a single one.  And yet I still believe we have to the obligation to teach our children and ourselves how to best reduce the chances of being raped.  Trying to protect myself and my loved  ones in no way implies I give the rapist a free pass or blame myself or my loved ones at all.  

[FaithManor]

Have you seen what the other friends and family wrote?

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-stanford-rape-brock-turner-letters-20160606-snap-htmlstory.html

 

His sister wrote

“A series of alcohol-fueled decisions that he made within an hour time span will define him for the rest of his life. Goodbye to NCAA championships. Goodbye to the Olympics. Goodbye to becoming an orthopedic surgeon. Goodbye to life as he knew it.â€

Note the utterly lacking concern for how his "series of alcohol fueld decisions" will affect her. The depravity seems to run deep in this family unit.

[FaithManor]

The letter from the retired federal prosecutor friend of the family is scary...' I know Brock did not go to that party intending to hurt or to entice or to overpower anyone. That is not his nature. It has never been." Apparently she doesnt know the definition of character....what you do when no one is around to observe....and thinks reputation equals character. The reputation was fine under observation, but the true character was revealed when he was alone....worse than an Eddie Haskell. The alcohol may not even have mattered. Taking advantage of an unconscious person is an action that reveals a psuedohuman, in need of constant supervision when around those he has declared his to violate.

:hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

Character is what you are when no one is looking, and this baboon exhibited his full character when he thought he was justified in raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster and wouldn't get caught, and then oopsie....a couple of real men came along and exhibited their character which was to rescue her from this vile, depraved simian and call the police.

 

Two types of character revealed here, on the one hand, low life barbarian, and on the other, upstanding, civilized humans.

 

It is disturbing that this concept is confusing to so many. Reputation means NOTHING if the root character is corrupt. How many completely evil characters in history have had "great" reputations until, well, they didn't anymore. Good grief. You'd think after this many years of human history, modern brains would have this figured out by now.

 

Guess not!

 

And while he receives all kind of acclaim across the web, the heroes of this story are largely lost. If we want to change rape culture in male youth, the people who stopped it should be hailed as the champions of the story. They should be upheld as the role models. Nope....just a lot of whining about how some sad, rich white boy lost his appetite after committing a heinous crime.

 

So disgusting.

[Matryoshka]

Note the utterly lacking concern for how his "series of alcohol fueld decisions" will affect her. The depravity seems to run deep in this family unit.

 

I haven't seen this posted yet - someone on FB commented "Apparently Brock Turner's father needed some help editing his letter. Happy to oblige.", and 'fixed' it here.   Well done edits...

[EmseB]

 

And while he receives all kind of acclaim across the web, the heroes of this story are largely lost. If we want to change rape culture in male youth, the people who stopped it should be hailed as the champions of the story. They should be upheld as the role models. Nope....just a lot of whining about how some sad, rich white boy lost his appetite after committing a heinous crime.

 

So disgusting.

 

Luckily the entire internet is not like this.  The reddit thread I saw had lots of kudos for the Swedes who stopped him.  And most other comments were about what a vile human being Turner is, and eviscerating the father.

[Murphy101]

Have you seen what the other friends and family wrote?

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-stanford-rape-brock-turner-letters-20160606-snap-htmlstory.html

 

His sister wrote

“A series of alcohol-fueled decisions that he made within an hour time span will define him for the rest of his life. Goodbye to NCAA championships. Goodbye to the Olympics. Goodbye to becoming an orthopedic surgeon. Goodbye to life as he knew it.â€

Ahhhh. I see the problem is that her brother - the rapist - is the one who is a booze swelling slut.

 

Well good for her for understanding that much at least. Progress I suppose is indeed slow.

 

*smh*

[Joanne]

Just wanted to say that I personally don't subscribe to anything on your second list.  Not a single one.  And yet I still believe we have to the obligation to teach our children and ourselves how to best reduce the chances of being raped.  Trying to protect myself and my loved  ones in no way implies I give the rapist a free pass or blame myself or my loved ones at all.  

 

 

But our culture *does* host all of those things. If I recall correctly, you are a Christian, fairly conservative. That often comes with beliefs in modesty, chastity, sobriety. These beliefs/values have permeated and shaped our culture, and are a significant factor in the presence and development of rape culture.

[Scarlett]

But our culture *does* host all of those things. If I recall correctly, you are a Christian, fairly conservative. That often comes with beliefs in modesty, chastity, sobriety. These beliefs/values have permeated and shaped our culture, and are a significant factor in the presence and development of rape culture.

 

 

Well, I can't speak for other Christians but this rape culture it is not part of my faith's belief. Modesty, chastity, sobriety are good things.  Rape is a bad thing.  These are things males and females are taught equally.

 

 

And then also unrelated to character traits (be modest, chaste and sober) is the very real need to protect ourselves from the evil people out there who are NOT concerned with proper conduct and in fact will do violence against us.  

[Joanne]

Well, I can't speak for other Christians but this rape culture it is not part of my faith's belief. Modesty, chastity, sobriety are good things.  Rape is a bad thing.  These are things males and females are taught equally.

 

 

And then also unrelated to character traits (be modest, chaste and sober) is the very real need to protect ourselves from the evil people out there who are NOT concerned with proper conduct and in fact will do violence against us.  

 

 

The way our culture, shaped significantly by religion (and not "just" Christianity) is part of "this rape culture." It ALL figures into the ways women are diminished as persons to scripted sexuality and the way controlling women's sexuality continues.

 

And, no, they are not "taught equally." Women are treated differently in terms of the "sin factor", modesty, and expectations of virginity and the limited acceptable behavior regarding sexuality.

 

Which lands me back to media like Twilight and 50 Shades. They exist in profitable abundance because of the culture around women and sexuality.

 

SCARLETT might not have personally contributed, but collectively, we all do.

[poppy]

Well, I can't speak for other Christians but this rape culture it is not part of my faith's belief. Modesty, chastity, sobriety are good things. Rape is a bad thing. These are things males and females are taught equally.

 

 

And then also unrelated to character traits (be modest, chaste and sober) is the very real need to protect ourselves from the evil people out there who are NOT concerned with proper conduct and in fact will do violence against us.

The problem with this is that it can set up a dichotomy where women who behave appropriately have earned respect. And so women who don't (who dress immodestly and drink) have not earned respect and can be thought or, and treated , very differently . And that is a key aspect of rape culture. Edited June 7, 2016 by poppy

[Scarlett]

The way our culture, shaped significantly by religion (and not "just" Christianity) is part of "this rape culture." It ALL figures into the ways women are diminished as persons to scripted sexuality and the way controlling women's sexuality continues.

 

And, no, they are not "taught equally." Women are treated differently in terms of the "sin factor", modesty, and expectations of virginity and the limited acceptable behavior regarding sexuality.

 

Which lands me back to media like Twilight and 50 Shades. They exist in profitable abundance because of the culture around women and sexuality.

 

SCARLETT might not have personally contributed, but collectively, we all do.

 

 

I will admit I have never been involved in a religion that treats women differently as regards sin.  So I can't speak to those religions.  I can speak to mine where men and women are held to the same standard.  Our young people are being taught to be morally upright and to respect each other and honor God's laws.  And when they miss the mark as all humans do, their behavior is not blamed on anyone else.  

 

What has happened is that it is now taboo to discuss safety measures to protect ourselves from vile predators because hey women should be allowed to be unconscious in the street and not be raped. And while I agree with that, it is pure folly to believe we live in such a world.   And the rapists and the predators of the world will take advantage of the victims of the world who have been taught they should be able to do as they please and be safe.  

[zoobie]

Well, I can't speak for other Christians but this rape culture it is not part of my faith's belief. Modesty, chastity, sobriety are good things. Rape is a bad thing. These are things males and females are taught equally.

 

 

And then also unrelated to character traits (be modest, chaste and sober) is the very real need to protect ourselves from the evil people out there who are NOT concerned with proper conduct and in fact will do violence against us.

Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted as a girl and raped repeatedly, has been doing work in this area. She makes speeches to LDS and other Christian groups on the subject of how valuing virginity above all else is harmful. I am not in either of those groups, but I've found her to be a very powerful voice.

[frogger]

If a guy is that worried that he might end up being accused of rape, the solution is EASY. Don't have sex when either of you are drunk. Don't drive drunk, don't take your finals drunk, don't show up to work drunk, and don't have sex drunk. There, now you don't have to worry anymore. 

 

Women are told to be responsible in order to minimize the chances of being raped. Well, guys can be responsible and do what they have to do to minimize the chances of being accused of rape.

 

I just can't feel sorry about telling a guy not to have drunk sex with a person he doesn't know well. Life's rough. 

 

 

This is what I have been thinking. I don't want either my son or my daughter getting drunk and having sex. Preferably neither since it is harder making decisions about the latter if you already have accomplished the former.  It is unsafe to be totally unaware and to lose all inhibition and just as the girl is playing with fire by doing so; so is the boy. I can't control my children but I do pray they will make intelligent decisions. I don't know that I could ever have much of a relationship with my son if I found out that they did something like what the original letter was about. I say, "don't know" because really we don't know much about ourselves until we are in an actual situation but it makes me sick the way his parents and others downplay the evil he committed. I can't imagine ever doing that. 

 

 

Our society is weird that way though. For example, you can be charged where I live for accidentally leaving keys in your car. Yes, it is illegal to leave keys in your vehicle because someone might steal it. Why are we not just convicting the thief?

 

When a completely high girl ran over a bicyclist in our city got a measly little slap on the wrist. A wife and daughter will never ever see their husband and father again and it looks like she will get and I quote, Fitzgerald estimated that, if approved, the motion would reduce Ellis’ time in prison to “a little over 90 days.â€.  

 

When this happened people started complaining about bicyclists in general. They started mentioning this cyclist that did something they didn't like last week. What? How is that relevant to the case at hand. But they did try to make it the cyclist fault somehow. 

 

People need to be responsible for their own actions and it is dangerous for both the goose and the gander to be completely out of it. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by frogger

[Scarlett]

Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted as a girl and raped repeatedly, has been doing work in this area. She makes speeches to LDS and other Christian groups on the subject of how valuing virginity above all else is harmful. I am not in either of those groups, but I've found her to be a very powerful voice.

 

 

I have seen a few interviews with her.  I am amazed by her.

 

Virginity is an entirely different matter than being moral.  Virginity does not equate being morally clean.  Virginity is a physical state.  It is what I have always been taught. I have never honestly known anyone who 'valued' virginity in the way I read on this board.  

[poppy]

I will admit I have never been involved in a religion that treats women differently as regards sin. So I can't speak to those religions. I can speak to mine where men and women are held to the same standard. Our young people are being taught to be morally upright and to respect each other and honor God's laws. And when they miss the mark as all humans do, their behavior is not blamed on anyone else.

 

What has happened is that it is now taboo to discuss safety measures to protect ourselves from vile predators because hey women should be allowed to be unconscious in the street and not be raped. And while I agree with that, it is pure folly to believe we live in such a world. And the rapists and the predators of the world will take advantage of the victims of the world who have been taught they should be able to do as they please and be safe.

I don't think it's taboo at all to discuss common sense safety measures with your kids. At all.

 

However, there is backlash when 'women drinking' becomes the focus of every conversation about rape. As it did here.

[maize]

Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted as a girl and raped repeatedly, has been doing work in this area. She makes speeches to LDS and other Christian groups on the subject of how valuing virginity above all else is harmful. I am not in either of those groups, but I've found her to be a very powerful voice.

 

Elizabeth Smart does amazing work.

 

I was raised to believe that standards of modesty and morality applied equally to males and females. I do not believe that getting rid of those standards is the only way or the best way to address cultural discrepancies that hold men and women to different standards.

[Scarlett]

I don't think it's taboo at all to discuss common sense safety measures with your kids. At all.

 

However, there is backlash when 'women drinking' becomes the focus of every conversation about rape. As it did here.

 

 

I will admit I haven't read this entire thread or even the girl's letter.  I am watching the coverage on CNN so I get the horrifying overall story.  However I think this is the EXACT time to say, 'oh my word, there are horrible people out there.  Please do what is in your power to not end up unconscious because those horrible people might harm you.'  To me that in no way is saying she is guilty of the crime of anything.  It is rather a cautionary tale.

 

I thought of this thread recently when there was a road rage incident locally.  No one died, but a raging driver drove a teenager off the road because the teen wouldn't move out the lane this rager wanted to use to pass.  I said to my new driver 16 yo son, 'this is why you yield on the highway, because even if you are in the right, a maniac might go nuts on you.'   

 

I just really resent the very loud set of voices who assume every attempt at teaching our young people common sense is somehow a perpetuation of the 'rape culture'.

[Matryoshka]

 

When a completely high girl ran over a bicyclist in our city got a measly little slap on the wrist. A wife and daughter will never ever see their husband and father again and it looks like she will get and I quote, Fitzgerald estimated that, if approved, the motion would reduce Ellis’ time in prison to “a little over 90 days.â€.  

 

When this happened people started complaining about bicyclists in general. They started mentioning this cyclist that did something they didn't like last week. What? How is that relevant to the case at hand. But they did try to make it the cyclist fault somehow. 

 

 

 

Interesting metaphor about I saw on Facebook but apparently originated on Tumblr (which I link here because I can't find the Facebook post).  Read all the way down in to the comments which go up to #12 because the metaphor just keeps on giving.

 

It starts "Being a woman is kind of like being a cyclist in a city where all the cars represent men"

[Xuzi]

Modesty is often presented as "respecting one's body." The trouble with that philosophy became apparent to me as I listened to a mom share a story of her teenage boy, raised to believe that men and women should dress modestly, saw a group of girls in short shorts and tank tops walking down the sidewalk, and asked his mom "Why do they dress like that? How can they expect somebody to respect them if they don't respect themselves?"

 

It doesn't matter if both sexes are taught modesty "equally". When we tie it to respect, it gives the implied message that not dressing modestly is deserving of disrespect, or means immodestly dressed persons don't care if others disrespect them, because they're obviously not seeking to be respected.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Xuzi

[SKL]

I don't believe those of us who are saying we'll advise our kids not to drink and have sex are saying this because of a "sin factor."  I think it's all about safety and remaining in control of one's own choices.

 

I haven't noticed one person mention modesty here other than to accuse others of being obsessed by it.  Clothes were not brought up either.

[Scarlett]

Modesty is often presented as "respecting one's body." The trouble with that philosophy became apparent to me as I listened to a mom share a story of her teenage boy, raised to believe that men and women should dress modestly, saw a group of girls in short shorts and tank tops walking down the sidewalk, and asked his mom "Why do they dress like that? How can they expect somebody to respect them if they don't respect themselves?"

 

It doesn't matter if both sexes are taught modesty "equally". When we tie it to respect, it gives the implied message that not dressing modestly is deserving of disrespect, or means immodestly dressed persons don't care if others disrespect them, because they're obviously not seeking to be respected.

 

 

I would say he needs a bit more instruction on what respect means.  We don't disrespect someone because of their conduct or their dress.  Their conduct does not shape ours.

[Matryoshka]

It does seem as if many women get a particular sort of satisfaction pointing their fingers at other women and saying, "Oooooh look at what she did; I would never do that!"  Therefore the finger pointers are smarter, more virtuous, whatever, than the victims. 

 

Here's the part I wonder about.  What if men were as nasty and judgemental with their peers?  I wonder how many guys know another guy that has had sex with a passed out woman?  Not necessarily rape - given Crimson Wife's example.  How many of them have said, "Dude, that is not cool and I don't really think you are the kind of guy I want to hang around?"  What would happen if the otherwise good guys in our lives did a little more self-policing of their friends?  What if "making it" no matter how you "made it" wasn't such a commendable and critical part of defining one's manhood?

 

Have we had discussions with our sons about dealing with the situation where you know something not okay has happened?  There's the guy code. How far does that go?

 

 

There's a really fantastic post being shared on FB from a guy calling out this kind of muddled thinking.  It was very well written, but I can't figure out how to link to it the post itself without linking to his page?  Anyone know how to do that, or is it kosher to copy/paste it with attribution?

[SKL]

Modesty is often presented as "respecting one's body." The trouble with that philosophy became apparent to me as I listened to a mom share a story of her teenage boy, raised to believe that men and women should dress modestly, saw a group of girls in short shorts and tank tops walking down the sidewalk, and asked his mom "Why do they dress like that? How can they expect somebody to respect them if they don't respect themselves?"

 

It doesn't matter if both sexes are taught modesty "equally". When we tie it to respect, it gives the implied message that not dressing modestly is deserving of disrespect, or means immodestly dressed persons don't care if others disrespect them, because they're obviously not seeking to be respected.

 

I am not familiar with the concept that my respect for another person depends on whether or not they respect themselves.  That is not how I raise my kids.  It's not how my brothers were raised either.

 

Thinking of my family, I can only imagine how my dad would feel about this swimmer guy and his father.  That family is not the norm.  I would like to think it is way outside the norm.

 

I also wonder what his mom is thinking - but no, I would not want her to be interrogated about it.

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by SKL

[poppy]

I will admit I haven't read this entire thread or even the girl's letter. I am watching the coverage on CNN so I get the horrifying overall story. However I think this is the EXACT time to say, 'oh my word, there are horrible people out there. Please do what is in your power to not end up unconscious because those horrible people might harm you.' To me that in no way is saying she is guilty of the crime of anything. It is rather a cautionary tale.

 

I thought of this thread recently when there was a road rage incident locally. No one died, but a raging driver drove a teenager off the road because the teen wouldn't move out the lane this rager wanted to use to pass. I said to my new driver 16 yo son, 'this is why you yield on the highway, because even if you are in the right, a maniac might go nuts on you.'

 

I just really resent the very loud set of voices who assume every attempt at teaching our young people common sense is somehow a perpetuation of the 'rape culture'.

To me the divide here isn't between people who teach kids common sense and those who don't. It's between those who look at this story and focus on the crime victim's failures. Or not . You can say it's not about THIS crime it's just about rape in general but really. The conversation is happening due to the victim consuming alcohol .

 

I also think 'well there will always be rapists, it's women's job to be safe as possible' is absolutely a way of letting these guys off the hook. 16 years ago this guy was an innocent preschooler. Now he is a grown man who sees a passed out female as an opportunity for 'action' . What happened in between those years shaped who he was , how he views women, how he views sex, how he views drunk women. Our job as a society is to protect the current crop of preschool boys from growing up be like him.

[mom31257]

All this tells me is that I can never depend on society to get enough right to protect me. I can only try to protect myself and try to teach my children that as well.

 

I've never been drunk because I don't drink alcohol. I've never been raped. I've never taken advantage of another person who was out of it in anyway, so I cannot speak to any of this particular situation.

Edited June 7, 2016 by mom31257

[SKL]

To me the divide here isn't between people who teach kids common sense and those who don't. It's between those who look at this story and focus on the crime victim's failures. Or not . You can say it's not about THIS crime it's just about rape in general but really. The conversation is happening due to the victim consuming alcohol .

 

I also think 'well there will always be rapists, it's women's job to be safe as possible' is absolutely a way of letting these guys off the hook. 16 years ago this guy was an innocent preschooler. Now he is a grown man who sees a passed out female as an opportunity for 'action' . What happened in between those years shaped who he was , how he views women, how he views sex, how he views drunk women. Our job as a society is to protect the current crop of preschool boys from growing up be like him.

 

Yes, the OP did bring this up in the context of alcohol, and I assume that's because the rapist tried to make his crime about that, and he apparently has some sleazy support for it.  He's trying to use alcohol as a scapegoat, and nobody here is letting him.

 

Some of us are able to separate his issue from the other issue of advising our own kids about sense and safety, yes, even in the same thread.

 

If the OP didn't want people talking about alcohol, she should have titled it differently, e.g., do you think 6 months in jail is enough punishment for a non-repentant jerk who was caught raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster?  And everyone would have said, no, it's terrible!  And that would have been that.  But the OP wanted to talk about the alcohol side of things.

[frogger]

Interesting metaphor about I saw on Facebook but apparently originated on Tumblr (which I link here because I can't find the Facebook post).  Read all the way down in to the comments which go up to #12 because the metaphor just keeps on giving.

 

It starts "Being a woman is kind of like being a cyclist in a city where all the cars represent men"

 

Yes, and even if 90% of cars are polite and accepting: that one that gets you is all that matters. 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a hard time with the statement that our culture or society is raising young men like this. When I worked fast food I had quite the educational experience about men but had never ever had an issue before. When I was in college I learned quickly to avoid certain groups. Other groups were great. Considerate, didn't think I owed them anything.  My daughter and I are not treated like I hear women are treated regularly. We go through life being ourselves and doing our thing. I do worry about if she ends up on a large college campus and gets a job where she will encounter these other people.  

 

The truth is that certain sub-cultures breed this stuff not everyone. So when we say what if the good guys influenced the bad guys well, they usually aren't found together and would not like each other so I'm not sure how that would work overall. Maybe in some certain instances but not generally. Obviously, this jerk's Dad's response gives us a good indication of how he was raised, etc. Which is why the justice system should be the one to step in but has failed time and again. 

 

 

Edited to add: I realize there are sneaky (bleeps) everywhere but the truth is in some places they have to be sneakier because what they are doing isn't considered acceptable. 

 

Edited June 7, 2016 by frogger

[Murphy101]

I'm having a difficult time buying the culture blame too.

 

This is the SAME supposedly puritanical culture where we have the also have the culture of binge drinking and hooking up as not unusual. So even if I were to buy that, it seems faulty logic to blame one culture and not the other.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Murphy101

[hornblower]

Interesting metaphor about I saw on Facebook but apparently originated on Tumblr (which I link here because I can't find the Facebook post).  Read all the way down in to the comments which go up to #12 because the metaphor just keeps on giving.

 

It starts "Being a woman is kind of like being a cyclist in a city where all the cars represent men"

 

 

That was very good. Thanks for sharing.