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Because "well, they were both drunk, so..." comes up so often in discussions about rape...


Xuzi
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OK, I watched the whole movie to get this, and it's almost at the end.

The exact words are:

 

"There are rules about things like that."

 

The same scene is also in The Philadelphia Story (first a play, then a movie with Cary Grant, Katherine Hepburn, and Jimmy Stewart, later made into the musical High Society). 

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You cannot be responsible AT ALL for a crime you did not commit. She did not assault herself, for gods sake...actually read what you just wrote and what it implies.

 

And, if she had done something unlawful, dangerous, etc. as a result of that impaired judgment (eg, drunk driving), then she would bear responsibility for her behavior as a result of the impaired judgment. What the criminal did was take advantage of her impaired state in order to commit his crime, behind a dumpster (which is clearly where every consenting woman wants to be fondled by a guy she met at a party <eye roll>).

 

She wrote: "I didn't say that he didn't have greater responsibility for the crime. He obviously did." Him having "greater responsibility" implies that someone else bears a lesser responsibility for the crime. She's creating percentages of responsibility. Therefore, it must be the victim who bears some responsibility for the crime (unless we're blame-shifting to the Swedes now). I understand it was possibly sloppy writing, but this is a topic where sloppiness is particularly unacceptable.

 

You are late to the dog pile.  ;)

 

I'd like to blame my word choice solely on sloppy writing (and it was partly that), but to be honest, I also hadn't carefully thought through some of these issues. 

 

I'll be more careful of my language, but I'd like to also ask (with no snark) that you consider not using God's name when you castigate me. Feel free to swear at me all you want using any other words.  :)

 

The victim was not responsible for her assault.

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Not in this case, but I do see a trend toward blaming the male in cases where two drunk people act drunkenly.  Why is it always the male's responsibility to stay sober and know when the other person is too drunk?  It's unrealistic as well as discriminatory.

 

I am really genuinely curious how a person knows if the other person who seems to consent is actually too drunk to consent.  Are there guidelines for people to tell their sons (other than keep your zipper up - which would be called "slut shaming" if we said it to a girl)?

 

This is where I get stuck too.   If both people are very drunk, how does anyone know who is consenting or not?    How does one know that the other is too drunk to consent?  

 

I've seen that question asked before and I don't think I've ever seen an answer to it.  I may have asked it myself; never got an answer. 

 

I used to hang out with people who got very, very drunk.  Men and women.  Things happened. I've had friends call me and ask what they did the night before, because they had no clue what happened, what they did, how they acted.   Men and women. 

 

As SKL said, not talking about this case.

Edited by marbel
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It doesn't have to be with the girl who was raped.  Imagine this scenario...

 

Every time there is a report about a rape or a scene in a movie where a woman is attacked, mom takes the opportunity to say, "Did you see how she was dressed?  How short her skirt was?  If you dress like that you are sending a message you should be very careful of."  

 

Daughter goes out with friends for a night out, wearing clothes that seem appropriate to her for a party.  Maybe even a little bit short skirt.  Daughter is raped or attacked.  She starts second guessing herself, look at how I was dressed, is that why this happened?  I'm so stupid.  Why did I dress like that...   

 

Now, in addition to recovering from the trauma of rape, she is also blaming herself.  And if a guy, or a lawyer, or a mom, says, "What were you wearing?" like it was relevant, she is going to be even more ashamed and disgusted.

 

Do you see why the timing of those discussions could lead her to feel that the woman has more control over the situation than she actually does?  Or why this daughter might not even be comfortable telling her mother about what happened?  

 

The mom may well be thinking, of course I would never do that to my daughter who has just been raped.  But daughter has heard her do just that to all these "other" rape victims.  Why would she believe anything but that her every choice and misjudgment will be critiqued and analysed?

 

Yes, this. This is why I never did anything about what happened to me. Because hey, I was drinking (and the first time, I was underage). I went into the bushes with a guy (to hide during a game of flash light tag, a game I'd played many times as a child only a few years earlier...seemed innocent to me). I didn't scream when I woke up to what was happening (I was still totally drunk out of my mind). Therefore, who would believe me? It was obviously my fault. I led him on, by going into the bushes with him. I told exactly NO ONE what happened for at least 10 years. I honestly forced myself to forget it. It was only years later, when confiding in someone about very personal things, that I admitted what happened. That guy I was talking to had a lot of issues, but bless him, what he said was "I know you didn't want that to happen." I could cry right now thinking about that. What  a perfect response. (and I did cry when he said it).  I didn't tell anyone else for I don't know how long...a long time. I've only talked about it recently, and still...I know that people think hey, drunk teen, what did she expect? Well, i didn't expect a 30 year old married man to BE at a college party, for starters. It is only as an adult that I realize WHY he was there. He was looking for a victim. Ugh. 

 

And when it happened when I was older, well, obviously I should have known better. No way was I going to get dragged into a big trial as a single mom, living with my parents, etc etc. Even my own friends thought I must have been into the guy. I'd recently broken up with my boy friend (whom I am now married to, it was a brief breakup and I was devastated). Everyone thought I was just on the rebound. Except I found the guy creepy and gross. And he hurt me, physically. But even then, all those "well what did you drink, are you sure you didn't lead him one, etc etc) questions went through my mind. Had I actually DONE anything about it, that would have been so much worse. Because when a woman gets raped, that's what people talk about. Even here, in a group of women that should know better. No rape victim wants people dissecting her life like that. So it's easier not to do anything. And then the guy goes and does it again, to someone else. 

 

Every time we talk about what the victim's responsibility was, we make it harder for victims to speak up. Which means more rapists keep raping. 

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I have just spent a fruitless 15 minutes looking for a scene from the old movie "High Society". It should be played over and over as a public interest message.

 

In it a man explains very gracefully that he didn't have sex with a willing but somewhat inebriated woman despite her great attractiveness to him and her evident interest in him because she was drunk and, IIRC, "There are rules about such things."

It's a scene from Philadelphia Story between Katherine Hepburn and Jimmy Stewart.

 

ETA: and old news. Phone didn't update entire page. Sorry!

Edited by zoobie
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This is where I get stuck too.   If both people are very drunk, how does anyone know who is consenting or not? 

 

I've seen that question asked before and I don't think I've ever seen an answer to it.  I may have asked it myself; never got an answer. 

 

I used to hang out with people who got very, very drunk.  Men and women.  Things happened. I've had friends call me and ask what they did the night before, because they had no clue what happened, what they did, how they acted.   Men and women. 

 

As SKL said, not talking about this case.

 

If both are falling down drunk, can't remember their own name, neither is consenting. I would not blame a male more than a female for that situation. However, the way biology works is that USUALLY a man can't "get it up" while that drunk. Therefore, if we are talking about full intercourse style rape, usually the man isn't that drunk. Men who are falling down drunk fall down, but they don't fall down with their penises inside someone else. 

 

I've known a lot of good guys that got drunk, and even with big talk, they end up passing out, not having sex. Nature of alcohol. 

 

Although I wonder how mixing caffeine with alcohol effects that, now that I think about it. For a while there was a lot of news about mixing energy drinks and booze and how it disrupts the body's normal defense mechanism of passing out. Not sure if it would also effect that particular part of biology. 

 

But either way, in the vast magority of cases, someone drunk is not coordinated enough to do much, sex wise. 

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If both are falling down drunk, can't remember their own name, neither is consenting. I would not blame a male more than a female for that situation. However, the way biology works is that USUALLY a man can't "get it up" while that drunk. Therefore, if we are talking about full intercourse style rape, usually the man isn't that drunk. Men who are falling down drunk fall down, but they don't fall down with their penises inside someone else. 

 

I've known a lot of good guys that got drunk, and even with big talk, they end up passing out, not having sex. Nature of alcohol. 

 

Although I wonder how mixing caffeine with alcohol effects that, now that I think about it. For a while there was a lot of news about mixing energy drinks and booze and how it disrupts the body's normal defense mechanism of passing out. Not sure if it would also effect that particular part of biology. 

 

But either way, in the vast magority of cases, someone drunk is not coordinated enough to do much, sex wise. 

Katie, thanks for the gracious response. 

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. But, rape does not always involve intercourse, right? 

 

I'm not trying to be offensive or victim-blame but trying to tease this out.  I'm going to relate an experience I had (not as a victim). I remember it perfectly though it was 30 years ago.  It may be a bit graphic for some.

 

I was my birthday and a group of friends got together to bar-hop.  As usual, I was the sensible one, and was not celebrating quite as hard as some of my friends.  I was the driver, though I'll admit I was a bit tipsy; probably shouldn't have driven but I was in control of my faculties.  We liked dive bars with cheap beer.

 

At the last place of the night, my friend Sue (name changed) met a guy and got very friendly with him.  They talked, and danced... after a while I noticed they were gone.   Well, it wasn't unusual for people to leave a bar to go out to the car to make out.  We hung out a while longer, then decided we'd better go find her. 

 

Well, we did find her; she and the guy were having (or attempting to have) sex in the alley along one wall of the bar.  She gave no signs of distress.  I called her name, though, and they stopped what they were doing, adjusted themselves and walked over. They were both very drunk - slurring their words, wobbly on their feet.  I knew her well enough to know she was out of it.  Since I didn't know the guy, I couldn't tell his mental state but he didn't seem very with it either.

 

We left.

 

Next day she came over to my apartment. She had no memory of the guy, the place, the events. She had a vague memory that "something" had happened.  When I told her, she was embarrassed and ashamed.  She did not consider that she had been raped.

 

I think most people on this thread would say she'd been raped or at least, assaulted.   Maybe she had told him no.  Or maybe she couldn't. Maybe he took advantage of the situation, or maybe he was so drunk he couldn't tell if she was really consenting or was unable to give true consent.  There was no way for anyone to tell. 

 

Edited by marbel
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This is where I get stuck too.   If both people are very drunk, how does anyone know who is consenting or not?    How does one know that the other is too drunk to consent?  

 

I've seen that question asked before and I don't think I've ever seen an answer to it.  I may have asked it myself; never got an answer. 

 

I used to hang out with people who got very, very drunk.  Men and women.  Things happened. I've had friends call me and ask what they did the night before, because they had no clue what happened, what they did, how they acted.   Men and women. 

 

As SKL said, not talking about this case.

 

It really doesn't matter if you are drunk or not if you are committing a crime. So I guess that's the answer to "why it's always the man's responsibility". Women and men are equally responsible for knowing to not drive if impaired. Women and men are equally responsible for  not getting into a violent altercation if impaired (people generally DO know if they are angry drunks.....)  And women and men are both responsible for not sexually assaulting and man, woman or child when drunk.   

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Facts? Uncomfortable?

 

So, you'll tell them that 50% of rape victims were raped by their intimate partner? That statistically they'll be most at risk at age 14?

 

I absolutely agree with telling kids about the dangers of being inebriated. I said that. But sexual assault is a much wider problem for all women than just those silly girls engaging in risky behavior. I know it's more comfortable to think that way.

That can be done without implying that victims can control or prevent their attacker!

 

I'm not sure why you assume I'm going to hide those pertinent facts from my daughters.

 

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Katie, thanks for the gracious response. 

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. But, rape does not always involve intercourse, right? 

 

I'm not trying to be offensive or victim-blame but trying to tease this out.  I'm going to relate an experience I had (not as a victim). I remember it perfectly though it was 30 years ago.  It may be a bit graphic for some.

 

I was my birthday and a group of friends got together to bar-hop.  As usual, I was the sensible one, and was not celebrating quite as hard as some of my friends.  I was the driver, though I'll admit I was a bit tipsy; probably shouldn't have driven but I was in control of my faculties.  We liked dive bars with cheap beer.

 

At the last place of the night, my friend Sue (name changed) met a guy and got very friendly with him.  They talked, and danced... after a while I noticed they were gone.   Well, it wasn't unusual for people to leave a bar to go out to the car to make out.  We hung out a while longer, then decided we'd better go find her. 

 

Well, we did find her; she and the guy were having (or attempting to have) sex in the alley along one wall of the bar.  She gave no signs of distress.  I called her name, though, and they stopped what they were doing, adjusted themselves and walked over. They were both very drunk - slurring their words, wobbly on their feet.  I knew her well enough to know she was out of it.  Since I didn't know the guy, I couldn't tell his mental state but he didn't seem very with it either.

 

We left.

 

Next day she came over to my apartment. She had no memory of the guy, the place, the events. She had a vague memory that "something" had happened.  When I told her, she was embarrassed and ashamed.  She did not consider that she had been raped.

 

I think most people on this thread would say she'd been raped or at least, assaulted.   Maybe she had told him no.  Or maybe she couldn't. Maybe he took advantage of the situation, or maybe he was so drunk he couldn't tell if she was really consenting or was unable to give true consent.  There was no way for anyone to tell. 

 

 

I wouldn't consider it rape if the man was equally as impaired. If the man was sober, it would be concerning. 

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If you mean "don't get pass out drunk at a frat party":  pretty sure that is something most every parent covers.

 

If by "our actions send messages" you mean "if you get raped when you're drunk, it's because you were asking for it"...........earlier you said that no parent would do that.  So what "message" do you think a woman sends when she drinks?

 

Like I said before, I've witnessed women (and men) when drinking acting very different from how they act when sober.  And their actions appear to invite attentions they would never invite while sober.  A friend would probably know the difference, but this happens with people who aren't long-term friends; people they just met at the karaoke bar which they normally don't frequent.  I'm talking about people I respect, whose behavior shocked me, who probably did not remember it later.  It's my job to tell my daughters that these things can happen to them if they drink.

 

I don't understand why people keep assuming that this conversation always involves "she's asking for it."  Whatever that even means.

 

Edited by SKL
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Like I said before, I've witnessed women (and men) when drinking acting very different from how they act when sober.  And their actions appear to invite attentions they would never invite while sober.  A friend would probably know the difference, but this happens with people who aren't long-term friends; people they just meat at the karaoke bar which they normally don't frequent.  I'm talking about people I respect, whose behavior shocked me, who probably did not remember it later.  It's my job to tell my daughters that these things can happen to them if they drink.

 

I don't understand why people keep assuming that this conversation always involves "she's asking for it."  Whatever that even means.

 

 

"If you get drunk you might do things you regret" is a very different thing than "If you get drunk things might happen TO you that you regret". Those are different things. I think women who have been raped can see the difference. I've been drunk and done things I regret, and done things with men that I regret...or at least know I probably wouldn't have done sober. Honestly, not sure regret is the right word...those make for good stories to tell with my girlfriends, now that I'm old and boring. But messing around with a guy while drunk on the beach in the bahamas is NOT the same as waking up to a man doing things TO you.

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It really doesn't matter if you are drunk or not if you are committing a crime. So I guess that's the answer to "why it's always the man's responsibility". Women and men are equally responsible for knowing to not drive if impaired. Women and men are equally responsible for  not getting into a violent altercation if impaired (people generally DO know if they are angry drunks.....)  And women and men are both responsible for not sexually assaulting and man, woman or child when drunk.   

 

OK so, honest question, how do you decide who assaulted whom?  Is it always the guy because biologically it's his penis (or other part) that invades her vagina (or other part)?  (I think that's how consensual sex is done too though.)  But if the woman was the aggressor, that would probably look the same forensically.  Wouldn't it?

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It really doesn't matter if you are drunk or not if you are committing a crime. So I guess that's the answer to "why it's always the man's responsibility". Women and men are equally responsible for knowing to not drive if impaired. Women and men are equally responsible for  not getting into a violent altercation if impaired (people generally DO know if they are angry drunks.....)  And women and men are both responsible for not sexually assaulting and man, woman or child when drunk.   

 

Right, I agree with you.  But what I'm asking is - what happens when both parties are too drunk?  The man is too drunk to see that the woman is not really consenting because she is too drunk to consent.  He does not think he is raping her; he thinks she is a willing participant.  He is too drunk (and possibly doesn't know her well enough) to see that she is not able to consent. 

 

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But what do you warn them? Don't be friendly? Don't have a drink in your own home and get into your own bed?

 

The statistics show that most sexual assaults occur by a person known to the victim, and that victims are mostly wearing jeans.

 

Warning about drinking too much because it hampers your ability to make decisions and leaves you more vulnerable is fine, I do that. Warning about drinking too much because look at that girl who got raped turns her real horror into our object lesson.

Exactly. So see we do agree. I use the first wording for my son.,,and I also use it the context of becoming vulnerable for all sorts of accusations --false or true-- of misconduct.

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Right, I agree with you.  But what I'm asking is - what happens when both parties are too drunk?  The man is too drunk to see that the woman is not really consenting because she is too drunk to consent.  He does not think he is raping her; he thinks she is a willing participant.  He is too drunk (and possibly doesn't know her well enough) to see that she is not able to consent. 

 

 

Is she eagerly trying to have sex with him, while drunk, and he is doing the same, also drunk? No rape

 

Is he half out of it, laying there, and she is tearing his clothes off to have sex with him? She is raping him. It happens. 

 

Is she half out of her mind, laying there, and he is having sex with her while her eyes roll back in her head? He is raping her. 

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I wouldn't consider it rape if the man was equally as impaired. If the man was sober, it would be concerning. 

 

I agree with you.  But it seems (from my reading of this thread and other places) that if my friend had felt she'd been raped (because she was not capable of giving consent), it would have been considered rape, even if the guy was as drunk and out of it as she was.  He would have been held responsible for the crime despite his drunkenness, even if he had no intention of committing a crime and didn't know he was (because she appeared to give consent). 

 

It's not the same as, say, robbing a store when you are drunk.  Robbing a store is never consensual.  

 

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I agree with you.  But it seems (from my reading of this thread and other places) that if my friend had felt she'd been raped (because she was not capable of giving consent), it would have been considered rape, even if the guy was as drunk and out of it as she was.  He would have been held responsible for the crime despite his drunkenness, even if he had no intention of committing a crime and didn't know he was (because she appeared to give consent). 

 

It's not the same as, say, robbing a store when you are drunk.  Robbing a store is never consensual.  

 

 

His laywer would make the case that his client was also too drunk to consent. It wouldn't go anywhere, and he wouldn't be convicted. 

 

Remember, even in VERY clear cases, there is seldom a conviction, or jail time, or whatever.

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I think there's another message sent to girls/women when they're told that certain behaviors and actions "lead men on", and that's that they have some sort of responsibility to follow through when men draw inferences.  So, even in cases of probably-not-rape, I'm confident there are a lot of "I don't want to do this, but I suppose I have to now" situations.

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"If you get drunk you might do things you regret" is a very different thing than "If you get drunk things might happen TO you that you regret". Those are different things. I think women who have been raped can see the difference. I've been drunk and done things I regret, and done things with men that I regret...or at least know I probably wouldn't have done sober. Honestly, not sure regret is the right word...those make for good stories to tell with my girlfriends, now that I'm old and boring. But messing around with a guy while drunk on the beach in the bahamas is NOT the same as waking up to a man doing things TO you.

 

The line seems very gray to me though.  Doing things you might regret often leads to having things done to you that you (and they) might regret - especially if both parties are drunk.

 

From a parenting perspective, it's not a matter of blame or shame (for me), it's a matter of prevention.  I fully expect my kids to do things I don't want them to do - intentionally and/or unintentionally.  I am not into shaming my kids for making choices they have to live with.  But I really prefer that they go in knowing what the risks are, so they can make an informed decision.  Should I have a drink?  Hmm, I think maybe I'd better keep all my faculties about me - to better protect myself and my friends.  (Plus, if I'm under 21, it's illegal to drink.)  If making an informed choice to drink leads to regret, that doesn't make Mom a shamer before the fact.  The person is going to regret it whether I warned her or not, right?  In that respect, it's no different than anything else we warn our kids about.  Don't drink and drive, don't text and drive, don't play "chicken," because you could end up dead or in prison.  When you have a test tomorrow, and your video games are calling, be strong.  Telling your kids that a choice can have negative consequences isn't shaming; if it is, then we're all guilty of it.

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I'm not sure why you assume I'm going to hide those pertinent facts from my daughters.

 

I'm very pleased to hear that.

 

There does tend to be a focus on what the victim did wrong - there are no perfect victims - as if that will keep evil over there away from my good girl. Oh how I wish the world could be boxed up neatly like that.

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Is she eagerly trying to have sex with him, while drunk, and he is doing the same, also drunk? No rape

 

Is he half out of it, laying there, and she is tearing his clothes off to have sex with him? She is raping him. It happens. 

 

Is she half out of her mind, laying there, and he is having sex with her while her eyes roll back in her head? He is raping her. 

 

Yes, but there is a 4th possibility.

 

In the specific case I'm thinking of (and others I've heard of), it starts out that she's happy to fool around around a little bit but not have sex.  Things escalate to a point she is not happy with what's going on. But she's not able to articulate that.  He is too drunk to notice the change, and/or doesn't know her well enough to know.   The alcohol is slowing taking effect on both of them.  Of course some of this is speculation because she didn't remember what happened and I didn't see everything, just the beginning (eager participant) and ending (out of it and not knowing what was going on). 

 

I just think it's not as simple as some people think.  I think it's possible that some people (I am not thinking of any specific posters here) who have not been around heavy drinking/partying people might not realize what can go on.   I know you get it, Katie, and I'm sorry for the experiences you had. 

 

 

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I think there's another message sent to girls/women when they're told that certain behaviors and actions "lead men on", and that's that they have some sort of responsibility to follow through when men draw inferences.  So, even in cases of probably-not-rape, I'm confident there are a lot of "I don't want to do this, but I suppose I have to now" situations.

 

And we need to be clear with our daughters that you can always say no and walk away.  You don't owe anyone anything (sexually).  If he's aroused, there are ways for him to deal with that without having intercourse.

 

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Did you miss the part where I was a victim? I was very very close to being raped. So that is not a hypothetical. And yet I have no trouble knowing that I was not responsible for that. It also does not make me stop warning my kids about such predators.

 

No one is saying you should not warn your children about rape. Not one person has ever said any such thing.

 

What I mean by hypothetical, is that when someone who was actually raped and their rape is the topic of conversation, many people (as you have seen) consider it both irrelevant and reprehensibly distracting from the true force of the crime committed.

 

The hypothetical people your children need to protect themselves from are out there, they exist. But talking about protecting oneself from them is a seperate topic of conversation than the "responsibility" in a rape, which lies solely at the feet of the rapist and not the victim.

 

Hypothetically, it's always good to stay safe. Duh, obviously. In reality, once a rape has occurred, safety measures the victim could have taken are moot.

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Yes, but there is a 4th possibility.

 

In the specific case I'm thinking of (and others I've heard of), it starts out that she's happy to fool around around a little bit but not have sex.  Things escalate to a point she is not happy with what's going on. But she's not able to articulate that.  He is too drunk to notice the change, and/or doesn't know her well enough to know.   The alcohol is slowing taking effect on both of them.  Of course some of this is speculation because she didn't remember what happened and I didn't see everything, just the beginning (eager participant) and ending (out of it and not knowing what was going on). 

 

I just think it's not as simple as some people think.  I think it's possible that some people (I am not thinking of any specific posters here) who have not been around heavy drinking/partying people might not realize what can go on.   I know you get it, Katie, and I'm sorry for the experiences you had. 

 

If she doesn't want sex, and is no longer actively participating, and is not even capable of saying no because she can no longer speak she is so drunk, then yes, I would call that rape. Because if he is capable of having sex, he should be capable of noting that she is passed out/saying no/doesn't want to. 

 

However, honestly, talking about these very few cases rather than not the majority that are clear cut just again, makes it seem like there are no clear cut ones or that the majority are just this jumbled confusion. They aren't. Most of the time, the guy went looking for a victim. he is sober enough to manipulate them to a place where they will have privacy. If you are sober enough to want privacy and think that through and find a place, you are sober enough to know if the girl is into it. 

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I think there's another message sent to girls/women when they're told that certain behaviors and actions "lead men on", and that's that they have some sort of responsibility to follow through when men draw inferences.  So, even in cases of probably-not-rape, I'm confident there are a lot of "I don't want to do this, but I suppose I have to now" situations.

 

Yes, I remember well hearing boys in high school talking about a girl: "she's a ****-tease."  Ugh.  And girls talking about how much fun it was to lead a guy on to thinking he was going to "get some" with no intention of following though.   Ugh to that too. 

 

But right, once anyone says "no" it's time to stop.  Not arguing about that.  Just musing on how sleazy people can be.

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I think most people on this thread would say she'd been raped or at least, assaulted.   . 

 

 

I think you're wrong about that.

 

The difference (from your other post, you asked about what if they are both drinking) was that a woman just got drunk. The other party got drunk AND THEN RAPED SOMEONE.

 

How do people not understand the difference. Have all you guys just never been drunk? I don't understand what there is to not understand. Are you thinking that getting drunk can make you a rapist????

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I almost never drink, especially around strangers; this puts me in a position to soberly observe what other people do when they are drunk.  No, getting drunk doesn't make a person a rapist, but being drunk instigates things people regret later.  When regret becomes equated with rape, that becomes a problem.

 

Problem is, often there are no witnesses other than some drunk people, who may not even remember what their actions were.  If you wake up realizing you've had sex and you don't remember, that doesn't automatically mean rape IMO.

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I almost never drink, especially around strangers; this puts me in a position to soberly observe what other people do when they are drunk.  No, getting drunk doesn't make a person a rapist, but being drunk instigates things people regret later.  When regret becomes equated with rape, that becomes a problem.

 

Problem is, often there are no witnesses other than some drunk people, who may not even remember what their actions were.  If you wake up realizing you've had sex and you don't remember, that doesn't automatically mean rape IMO.

 

No one said it did, although it very well may. 

 

But who on earth is equating regret with rape???? Is the woman in the story this post about doing that? Was I doing that, when at 18 I woke up to a man nearly twice my age on top of me, inside me? I'm not talking about waking up the next day, I'm talking about waking up to it happening to you. Not regretting what you DID, but regretting what happened TO YOU while you were passed out, unable to consent. 

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I almost never drink, especially around strangers; this puts me in a position to soberly observe what other people do when they are drunk.  No, getting drunk doesn't make a person a rapist, but being drunk instigates things people regret later.  When regret becomes equated with rape, that becomes a problem.

 

Problem is, often there are no witnesses other than some drunk people, who may not even remember what their actions were.  If you wake up realizing you've had sex and you don't remember, that doesn't automatically mean rape IMO.

 

Who has ever defined rape as sex you regret?

 

Besides you, I mean.

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The line seems very gray to me though. Doing things you might regret often leads to having things done to you that you (and they) might regret - especially if both parties are drunk.

 

From a parenting perspective, it's not a matter of blame or shame (for me), it's a matter of prevention. I fully expect my kids to do things I don't want them to do - intentionally and/or unintentionally. I am not into shaming my kids for making choices they have to live with. But I really prefer that they go in knowing what the risks are, so they can make an informed decision. Should I have a drink? Hmm, I think maybe I'd better keep all my faculties about me - to better protect myself and my friends. (Plus, if I'm under 21, it's illegal to drink.) If making an informed choice to drink leads to regret, that doesn't make Mom a shamer before the fact. The person is going to regret it whether I warned her or not, right? In that respect, it's no different than anything else we warn our kids about. Don't drink and drive, don't text and drive, don't play "chicken," because you could end up dead or in prison. When you have a test tomorrow, and your video games are calling, be strong. Telling your kids that a choice can have negative consequences isn't shaming; if it is, then we're all guilty of it.

So you are going to tell your kids not to drink? Ok. Why is this the conversation were having after a man assaults an unconscious woman behind a dumpster???

 

It's crazy to me that men aren't really responsible for their sexual activity when drunk . If we treated drunk driving the way we treated rape (he can't *really* be responsible if his judgement is impaired ....) we would have a culture much more accepting of drunk driving. In that sense I feel like these conversations help lead to a culture that is kinda sorta ok with rape.

 

I've been to so many frat parties and college parties. Where I drank. I met my husband at a frat party (we were both just visiting ). I've also observed my share of events where I was the only sober person in the room due to being designated driver, or pregnant, or not in the mood. It is not normal for men to prey on vulnerable women to assault. It's just not. Everyone has to pace him or herself, talk to each other, be with a buddy (both sexes), try to have fun. Finding passed out women to fondle is not a thing sober men, 'buzzed' men, drunk men do. It's like shoplifting or running a red light - clearly a choice, clearly out of normal bounds. When it happens it is a criminal act. Clearly.

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Exactly. We don't let drunk men who commit a hit and run say, "well, I was too drunk to know that driving a car was a bad idea". Drunk doesn't excuse it. 

 

And besides, the idea that sex you regret is rape is crazy. Women are not waking up, regretting sex, and calling the police. Women who actually WERE raped don't even call the police most of the time. No one is going to go through that for something that wasn't really rape. Trust me. (ok, i'm sure there are evil people out there that do, but it seriously is not the real problem and to focus on it is a red herring)

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No one said it did, although it very well may. 

 

But who on earth is equating regret with rape???? Is the woman in the story this post about doing that? Was I doing that, when at 18 I woke up to a man nearly twice my age on top of me, inside me? I'm not talking about waking up the next day, I'm talking about waking up to it happening to you. Not regretting what you DID, but regretting what happened TO YOU while you were passed out, unable to consent. 

 

Not in this present case, but in past cases there has been a movement toward basically telling female students that if they regret sex in hindsight, they should accuse the man of rape.

 

I have been very clear about my opinion regarding this present case.

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I didn't know much about this case until this thread. You made me look into it:). I did notice that the rape charges were actually dropped before trial, and the young man was tried (and convicted) of 2 assaults and attempted rape.

 

The crime was interrupted and I suspect it would be hard to prove rape vs. attempted rape since he didn't get the chance to finish what he was doing IYKWIM.

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So you are going to tell your kids not to drink? Ok. Why is this the conversation were having after a man assaults an unconscious woman behind a dumpster???

 

It's crazy to me that men aren't really responsible for their sexual activity when drunk . If we treated drunk driving the way we treated rape (he can't *really* be responsible if his judgement is impaired ....) we would have a culture much more accepting of drunk driving. In that sense I feel like these conversations help lead to a culture that is kinda sorta ok with rape.

 

I've been to so many frat parties and college parties. Where I drank. I met my husband at a frat party (we were both just visiting ). I've also observed my share of events where I was the only sober person in the room due to being designated driver, or pregnant, or not in the mood. It is not normal for men to prey on vulnerable women to assault. It's just not. Everyone has to pace him or herself, talk to each other, be with a buddy (both sexes), try to have fun. Finding passed out women to fondle is not a thing sober men, 'buzzed' men, drunk men do. It's like shoplifting or running a red light - clearly a choice, clearly out of normal bounds. When it happens it is a criminal act. Clearly.

 

1) Why we're having this discussion here is because this is where the conversation turned.

 

2) Don't put words in people's mouths; a discussion is impossible at that point.

 

3) I have been very clear on my position about the case in the OP.  That was clearly rape IMO.  Other cases are not always so clear.

 

4) I get frustrated when these conversations always turn to "you must be OK with rape then."  Not to put words in your mouth or anything.

Edited by SKL
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Not in this present case, but in past cases there has been a movement toward basically telling female students that if they regret sex in hindsight, they should accuse the man of rape.

 

I have been very clear about my opinion regarding this present case.

I don't think it is true that there is a movement telling female students who regret having sex to say it was rape. Does it happen? Yes, rarely. Is there a movement? No.

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No one said it did, although it very well may.

 

But who on earth is equating regret with rape???? Is the woman in the story this post about doing that? Was I doing that, when at 18 I woke up to a man nearly twice my age on top of me, inside me? I'm not talking about waking up the next day, I'm talking about waking up to it happening to you. Not regretting what you DID, but regretting what happened TO YOU while you were passed out, unable to consent.

The defendant in the case that appalled this discussion equated rape with drunk hijinks regret. That was part of what was so infuriating about his light sentence.

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The defendant in the case that appalled this discussion equated rape with drunk hijinks regret. That was part of what was so infuriating about his light sentence.

 

So it's the rapists saying it was just regret, as a defense strategy?

 

And then people turn around and act like there are hundreds of rape investigations//legal suits only open because some broad regretted her previous night?

 

Super sound logic.

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I don't think it is true that there is a movement telling female students who regret having sex to say it was rape. Does it happen? Yes, rarely. Is there a movement? No.

 

There's a statistic widely quoted that "1 in 5 female college students have been raped" but the way "rape" was defined in the survey included having had sex while legally too drunk to consent. If some survey had asked me that question during college, I would've had to answer "yes" but I've fortunately never been raped. Having drunk sex within the context of a dating relationship that includes lots of sober sex is not rape.

 

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Exactly. We don't let drunk men who commit a hit and run say, "well, I was too drunk to know that driving a car was a bad idea". Drunk doesn't excuse it. 

 

Well, we used to.

 

It wasn't until Mothers Against Drunk Driving really kicked into gear that drivers stopped being partially excused for the injuries they caused.  Drunk driving was always illegal but it wasn't always shamed and high consequence as it is now.  MADD has really made a difference.

 

Furthermore, our views of rape are very different now than they were 40 years ago.  It used to be that the judge in a rape case would HAVE TO instruct the jury to be cautious in interpreting the victim's accusations because by its nature this is a crime that devolves to he said vs. she said type evidence.  

 

Generally the changes are good, and in the direction of responsibility, but there will undoubtedly be unintended consequences of them, some of which are reasonable to discuss as we are doing in this thread.

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There's a statistic widely quoted that "1 in 5 female college students have been raped" but the way "rape" was defined in the survey included having had sex while legally too drunk to consent. If some survey had asked me that question during college, I would've had to answer "yes" but I've fortunately never been raped. Having drunk sex within the context of a dating relationship that includes lots of sober sex is not rape.

 

Well, based on my friends in college, 1 in 5 is too low, and that's even if you don't include the 'too drunk to consent but would have consented if sober' criteria.  Which is pretty appalling when you really think about it.

Edited by Carol in Cal.
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There's a statistic widely quoted that "1 in 5 female college students have been raped" but the way "rape" was defined in the survey included having had sex while legally too drunk to consent. If some survey had asked me that question during college, I would've had to answer "yes" but I've fortunately never been raped. Having drunk sex within the context of a dating relationship that includes lots of sober sex is not rape.

 

Here is an article about the methodology. And it is hardly a movement telling women who regret sex to claim rape.

 

http://time.com/3633903/campus-rape-1-in-5-sexual-assault-setting-record-straight/

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Generally the changes are good, and in the direction of responsibility, but there will undoubtedly be unintended consequences of them, some of which are reasonable to discuss as we are doing in this thread.

 

I think those would be reasonable, maybe, to discuss in some other thread, but not in relation to a woman who was assaulted while unconscious behind a dumpster. To attach the conversation about women just regretting sex to that conversation is to conflate the two. 

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I think those would be reasonable, maybe, to discuss in some other thread, but not in relation to a woman who was assaulted while unconscious behind a dumpster. To attach the conversation about women just regretting sex to that conversation is to conflate the two. 

I almost agree with you, except that we are 4 long pages into this convo, and everyone who has asked about that other topic has explicitedly disavowed relating it to this case.  So I'm on the fence about that.

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Read this long, but very powerful letter written by the victim of a frat party sexual assault, to her convicted rapist. (who only got *6 months* jail time because the judge thought more than that would be "too harsh"  :cursing: )

 

 

 

The rapist deserved and should have received a harsh sentence.

 

And the victim was victimized twice, first by her own stupidity and then by the monster who raped her.  

 

My daughter was reading about this case in the newspaper this morning and was very upset.  She started reading the article to me, so I stopped what I was doing and sat down with her to discuss it.  The part about the young woman drinking 4 shot glasses of whiskey before going to the frat party and then drinking vodka while she was at the party...I said "What an idiot!"  and I told my daughter that this is what can happen when a woman gets drunk like that...some monster could attack her and hurt her.  

 

She was a victim alright...and not just of the "rape culture" but also the alcohol culture.   But if something bad was going to happen, I'm thankful that she was the only victim of her drunkenness.   Thank goodness she didn't drive drunk and kill/injure others. 

 

My daughter is 19 and has autism.  She likes to read the newspaper, but she also still watches tv shows like Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood.  I'd much rather let her think everyone is a good neighbor, like on the tv show.  But I know that she's more vulnerable to being attacked without even taking one drink.  There's no sugarcoating it.   This is the harsh reality that we live with 24/7.  And I just wish more young women would realize before it's too late that drinking heavily is like making themselves temporarily disabled.  Rape is not a new crime,  but modern practices have taken the place of things like chaperones that were obviously meant to try to protect women.    Most modern women don't want to be viewed as being weaker or needing protection.    And here we are... 

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Yeah, no one was ever raped in the (rich people only, btw) "age of chaperones." and calling a rape victim an idiot is super helpful.

----------------------------

This whole conversation is very unsettling. Every single poster knows FOR SURE that helpless children are raped....knows that bed-ridden elderly women are raped....knows that burka-clad, never even SEEN alcohol in their lives women are raped....knows that boys as well as girls are raped...

 

and yet!

 

So many people want to play the pretend game that if you do the right things you won't get raped. I increasingly feel like this is not necessarily a lack of compassion, but maybe a lack of humility.

 

All evidence points to the fact that rapists will rape.  Conversations about reasonable safety measures are asides (which we have covered thrice over from every angle in this thread already). 

 

Women are crying out for the PROTECTION of a society that full-stop, no exceptions decries rape for the evil that it is.

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The rapist deserved and should have received a harsh sentence.

 

And the victim was victimized twice, first by her own stupidity and then by the monster who raped her.  

 

My daughter was reading about this case in the newspaper this morning and was very upset.  She started reading the article to me, so I stopped what I was doing and sat down with her to discuss it.  The part about the young woman drinking 4 shot glasses of whiskey before going to the frat party and then drinking vodka while she was at the party...I said "What an idiot!"  and I told my daughter that this is what can happen when a woman gets drunk like that...some monster could attack her and hurt her.

 

She was a victim alright...and not just of the "rape culture" but also the alcohol culture.   But if something bad was going to happen, I'm thankful that she was the only victim of her drunkenness.   Thank goodness she didn't drive drunk and kill/injure others. 

 

My daughter is 19 and has autism.  She likes to read the newspaper, but she also still watches tv shows like Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood.  I'd much rather let her think everyone is a good neighbor, like on the tv show.  But I know that she's more vulnerable to being attacked without even taking one drink.  There's no sugarcoating it.   This is the harsh reality that we live with 24/7.  And I just wish more young women would realize before it's too late that drinking heavily is like making themselves temporarily disabled.  Rape is not a new crime,  but modern practices have taken the place of things like chaperones that were obviously meant to try to protect women.    Most modern women don't want to be viewed as being weaker or needing protection.    And here we are... 

 

 

That's what can happen when she's not drunk like that because monsters are monsters. 

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