Because "well, they were both drunk, so..." comes up so often in discussions about rape...

[LMD]

I also teach my sons the same things, bc in general they are just good policies regardless of criminal threat.

 

I completely disagree that men are more supported in sexual assault or abuse cases though. It's often considered humiliating and unmanly to complain about it or to not be able to defend themselves.

Yes, I do agree with that.

I was thinking more along the train of thought that men are more at risk of physical violence from other men, and that led to remembering how seriously the violence against men was taken, and how quickly it was addressed here at the societal level.

[maize]

 When I was that age I wanted sex badly but I wanted it mixed with a feeling of relationship, flirting, staying up all night talking, a feeling of being desired, closeness and love. I have never had any desire to have sex with somebody who is unconscious or somebody who did not want me.

 

I know I've seen research about differences in male and female sexual desires and experience. Relationship overall is a much bigger part of female sexuality than of male, and for males violence and sexuality are more closely linked than for women. 

 

We can work against nature, but we should start by acknowledging its reality.

[maize]

I found this article interesting, especially the discussion of the roles of biological nature and of human culture. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-therapy/201411/why-do-men-sexually-assault-women

[poppy]

This is completely true. I haven't finished reading the thread but read the part about victim blaming. I'm just wondering what you would tell your daughters in response to hearing about something like this happening. Saying that there are things a girl can do to keep herself as safe as she can in no way lessens the perpetrator's guilt. Think about murder. I know that if I want to stay safe, I will not walk alone down an unlit street late at night when no-one is around. I don't think that saying this makes it any more right for someone to murder me, it's just common sense. I want to teach my daughters common sense, so that they can protect themselves. Is this "victim blaming" to do so?

 

My daughter is 8, so I won't tell her about this case.  But if she were older, I think I would say: it is shocking how light the sentence is, but look at how brave this woman was in making this gut-wrenching letter public to really lay out the trauma of rape and its aftermath.  Plus, look at what a different a passer-by can make.

 

I absolutely will encourage safety and common sense, of course. But not in response to this incident.  Actually I think I would frame her as the hero of the story.  If you are attacked, if you are victimized by a criminal, strike back. Prosecute.  It is not shameful to be raped. The rapist should be ashamed, not you.  Put the blame squarely where it belongs.

Edited June 8, 2016 by poppy

[maize]

I don't think this is a rape specific problem though. We see evidence of that in ALL level of law enforcement and court sentencing.

 

Robert Downey Jr. has heroine on him and it's "aw, that poor addict, and he's such a talented and nice guy."

 

Black men serve more prison time for lesser offenses.

 

"Student murdered classmate. He was a great kid, from a "good" family, he had good grades and was well liked in the football team." So the eff what? He MURDERED someone.

 

I completely agree that's all BS and perversion of justice.

 

But it's not about rape being okay. Just like it isn't about murderer being okay. Most in general society think both are very wrong. There's something more pervasive than that going on in our perverted justice system keeping it from actually doling the justice the general populace would think right. And it's frustrating because IMO, I see little evidence the general populace can make meaningful actually effective change.

 

I don't think most people think of rape as being close to as wrong as murder; the percentage of people who perpetrate rape and the percentage of victims is too high. Sexual violence is accepted in a way that murder is not.

 

I think that can change though, murder has been more accepted in many societies in the past than it is in most modern societies. We don't send men out to duel each other to settle arguments anymore.

 

Back to my nature vs culture train of thought: murder is I think a fairly natural thing for humans to do, not something everyone does or wants to do but killing people has been common throughout history. Culture can either embrace that or condemn and work against it. 

[Greta]

The backlog of lab tests is deplorable for everything, not just rape. I have a relative who waited nearly 8 months to get the results of blood work taken from a drunk driver to confirm their blood alcohol levels.

 

People are also waiting really long times for autopsies of victims bc there's just not enough state medical coroners or large enough facilities.

 

And I completely agree that people (cops or otherwise) who don't do their job thoroughly should be forced to do it properly or fired.

 

I completely agree our justice system is flawed every direction we look. I'm all for fixing that.

 

 

This is such a shame.  I've read that the relentless pursuit of marijuana crimes is (at least in part) responsible for many other violent crimes not getting the time and attention that they deserve from police departments.  I don't know if that's true, but if it is, it would probably be the deciding factor for me in the debate about legalizing marijuana.  I have mixed feelings about that generally, but if drunk drivers and rapists are going free so that we could put marijuana growers and distributors in jail, that is insane.  I know limited funding in general has to be an issue as well.  I don't know what other factors might be at play here.  But this seriously needs to be addressed.  It has got to change.

 

Sorry, I know I'm getting off topic.  

[Scarlett]

My daughter is 8, so I won't tell her about this case. But if she were older, I think I would say: it is shocking how light the sentence is, but look at how brave this woman was in making this gut-wrenching letter public to really lay out the trauma of rape and its aftermath. Plus, look at what a different a passer-by can make.

 

I absolutely will encourage safety and common sense, of course. But not in response to this incident. Actually I think I would frame her as the hero of the story. If you are attacked, if you are victimized by a criminal, strike back. Prosecute. It is not shameful to be raped. The rapist should be ashamed, not you. Put the blame squarely where it belongs.

Yes of course. I would say all those things. I agree with all those things. And I would add, with compassion, it is dangerous to end up unconscious behind a dumpster.

 

I do t see why warnings have to cancel out the other things you say. I don't see how it translates to victim blaming. Over and over on this thread people are saying we should protect ourselves and that only rapists are to,blame for rape.

 

I just can't understand why it is so enraging to people to point out ways to be safer.

[Murphy101]

I don't think most people think of rape as being close to as wrong as murder; the percentage of people who perpetrate rape and the percentage of victims is too high. Sexual violence is accepted in a way that murder is not.

 

I think that can change though, murder has been more accepted in many societies in the past than it is in most modern societies. We don't send men out to duel each other to settle arguments anymore.

 

Back to my nature vs culture train of thought: murder is I think a fairly natural thing for humans to do, not something everyone does or wants to do but killing people has been common throughout history. Culture can either embrace that or condemn and work against it.

I think violence in general is natural and common throughout history

 

I never said murder and rape are on par, but if we know there is blatant injustice in murder sentencing then to act like seeing it in rape cases = rape culture seems erroneous bc we don't also say we have a murder culture.

 

What we have is an unjust system.

[SKL]

 

Again, where the push back comes from is that the very first comments and majority of the comments from you and similar posters concern the actions of the woman. This always gives the impression that the most important factor is the woman's actions, not the rapist's. That is the part that is offensive. For the victims on the thread, I would imagine that no amount of sugar coating can change that initial punch to the gut that those posts contribute.

 

 

This is more an issue of your filter IMO.  Everyone said Brock was 100% at fault.  Except for one poster, nobody else said the rape victim's drinking made her partially responsible.  Nobody here, nobody, has said anything that should "give the impression that the most important factor is the woman's actions, not the rapist's."  If that is what you are reading, it is a filter issue on the side of the reader.

 

I have daughters.  I can only do what I can do, my kids can only do what they can do.  The biggest thing we can do to avoid being raped is to choose our own actions with prevention in mind.

 

And I do think there should to be a PSA about young adult drinking in social situations, and how it is associated with many crimes and mishaps, including rape and regretted sex.  And also, there should be a crackdown on the lax attitude of people in authority when it comes to underage drinking.  Let's be honest, we all know that would be preventative.  By refusing to accept that this needs to change, some people come across as not really caring that much about prevention.  You can say we need to change society and parenting bla bla bla, but the biggest direct effect on rape risk is going to come from practical actions such as staying alert.

[SKL]

I don't know anyone like that at all. No one I know is worried about transgendered assaulting women In restrooms.....and no one I know disbelieved a rape victim. Believing a rape victim and proving her rapist guilty under the law are two very different things.

 

I'm not worried about transgendered people, but statistically, public restrooms are one of the common sites where rapists attack their victims.  Of course most rapists are not transgender, but they could pretend to be in order to get access to victims.

 

I think as far as bathrooms go, we probably need to trend toward separate, private unisex stalls, perhaps with shared hand-washing facilities to save costs.  That's how it is in many places, including some poor areas, so it can't be that expensive if planned in advance of building / remodeling.

 

Yes, I know that is OT ....

[poppy]

Yes of course. I would say all those things. I agree with all those things. And I would add, with compassion, it is dangerous to end up unconscious behind a dumpster.

 

I do t see why warnings have to cancel out the other things you say. I don't see how it translates to victim blaming. Over and over on this thread people are saying we should protect ourselves and that only rapists are to,blame for rape.

 

I just can't understand why it is so enraging to people to point out ways to be safer.

This conversation about rape is almost entirely about the woman drinking. Not the man. It's like she had choices and he is some force of nature. Which is not true at all. Teach your kids common sense and to be safe. Of course. AND show respect for rape victims by not making every conversation about rape about the failures of rape victim. Teach your sons and daughters that rape happens because of rapist's choices which are deplorable and preventable. Show your sons and daughters that the way we respond to rape is outrage and scorn towards the perpetrator instead of questioning his victims choices. Edited June 8, 2016 by poppy

[zoobie]

I'm not worried about transgendered people, but statistically, public restrooms are one of the common sites where rapists attack their victims.  Of course most rapists are not transgender, but they could pretend to be in order to get access to victims.

 

I think as far as bathrooms go, we probably need to trend toward separate, private unisex stalls, perhaps with shared hand-washing facilities to save costs.  That's how it is in many places, including some poor areas, so it can't be that expensive if planned in advance of building / remodeling.

 

Yes, I know that is OT ....

 

Rapists who wear disguises or trespass in bathrooms won't be stopped by transgender bathroom laws. 

 

And "most rapists are not transgender"? Really? There have been zero reported attacks in bathrooms with a transgender perpetrator. ZERO. 

[SKL]

Two guys riding bikes  just happened to catch Brock Turner in the act of assaulting a woman.   If they hadn't caught him, he could have very easily  claimed it was a case of "two people who are drunk having sex, then one then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent." How could she possibly prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy, with no criminal record and great athletic and academic record, was  a rapist?  It would be like most rape cases: never brought to prosecution.

 

Right.  That is why it's so scary to think of girls going into these situations (I say girls because I have daughters; I'm focused on what I can affect).  The idea that anything could happen and you might not even know, and even if you did know, you might not be able to do anything about it.  Which is why trying to remain alert is worth advocating IMO.

[hornblower]

His statement to the judge is so not doing anything for me.

 

Blaming alcohol, blaming partying, blaming college lifestyle. Never once mentions the issue of sexual violence or objectification of women in society? 

[SKL]

At least we could give the ones we can prove decent sentences for a start!

 

I totally agree!  I remember in school when my social studies teacher told me that in the USSR, there were 5 death penalty offenses, and rape was one of them.  I wondered why it wasn't in the USA.  Well, I now don't think it's a death penalty offense, but at least a long incarceration period.

 

I do think the constitution applies to proving the case and getting a conviction.  That means many won't be convicted, but that is true of all crimes, and it's the standard our country accepts, i.e., it's better to risk letting a guilty person go than to risk punishing an innocent person.

 

[hornblower]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet but the two reluctant heroes of the story - the students who saw it & stopped it & who were able to provide information to lead to a conviction - have been identified as PhD students from Sweden. 

 

 

The board went down for me when I was posting this last night & I wasn't even sure it posted.... 

 

What I was thinking about later and couldn't help wondering was did anyone else see? Is it possible American students see & not say anything? Or maybe it's just a coincidence these are foreign students. I don't know ....but it got me thinking because there have been a number of cases where events were witnessed, video'd, or groups participated in sexual assaults on campuses. It seems that this part of this culture so I wondered if some other men had seen this & not done anything....

[Murphy101]

This conversation about rape is almost entirely about the woman drinking. Not the man. It's like she had choices and he is some force of nature. Which is not true at all. Teach your kids common sense and to be safe. Of course. AND show respect for rape victims by not making every conversation about rape about the failures of rape victim. Teach your sons and daughters that rape happens because of rapist's choices which are deplorable and preventable. Show your sons and daughters that the way we respond to rape is outrage and scorn towards the perpetrator instead of questioning his victims choices.

I do not think that rape happens because a man just can't control his base nature to take what he wants. If that were true, I'd be advocating putting him down like any rabid animal.

 

And I have no heard anyone say that they think rape is somehow okay bc it's just natural for men to rape.

 

I don't think theft or murder or many other criminal acts are just "force of nature" either, but they are not being wiped out of exisitance anytime soon, so looking to how we can reduce them is a valid response to any case, both from a justice/law enforcement and a personal prevention position.

 

Like SKL, I think people reading this thread and taking away that women are to blame and men can't help themselves are putting a filter to this that is both not intended and not accurate to the positions of anyone posting.

[SKL]

Rapists who wear disguises or trespass in bathrooms won't be stopped by transgender bathroom laws. 

 

And "most rapists are not transgender"? Really? There have been zero reported attacks in bathrooms with a transgender perpetrator. ZERO. 

 

Transgender people can be rapists, just like women and boys and girls and every other human can be rapists.

 

I don't know where you got your statistic about bathroom attacks by transgender people.  Or are you saying that because you don't happen to remember hearing of it happening?  Does law enforcement even track this statistic?

 

[Scarlett]

This conversation about rape is almost entirely about the woman drinking. Not the man. It's like she had choices and he is some force of nature. Which is not true at all. Teach your kids common sense and to be safe. Of course. AND show respect for rape victims by not making every conversation about rape about the failures of rape victim. Teach your sons and daughters that rape happens because of rapist's choices which are deplorable and preventable. Show your sons and daughters that the way we respond to rape is outrage and scorn towards the perpetrator instead of questioning his victims choices.

That is just not true. It has been about a lot of things...and I for one see the rapist as a rapist deserving of punishment. I see the victim as a victim. He gets no sympathy or pass from me. She gets no blame for being raped at all. No matter how many times you say I am blaming her it just isn't true. Nor do I see the majority of people in this thread blaming her at all.

 

There is no reason we have to stop talking about safety precautions every time a rape case is discussed.

[Scarlett]

It's because statements don't exist in a vacuum. They build on each other and cooraborate each other and create a "world" of attitudes and ideas.

 

Right now the idea that teaching women ways to be safer is the best we can do to prevent rape is so much a part of our world of ideas that Brock's supporters think he can redeem himself by starting a program to teach high school students about "the dangers of alcohol and sexual promiscuity."

 

Think about that for a minute. Mr. Rapist thinks he should get to tell young women not to drink and party, like the woman he attacked did, because if they do they might get raped.

 

In a world where the idea of *that* sounds plausible to anyone, the best thing we can do to protect our daughters is to raise a loud and unanimous OH HELL NO! to anything that suggests his stupid plan would be a net positive in the fight against rape. Yes, teach your kids about protecting themselves. But keep the public discourse very clear and very focused: rape is caused by rapists.

I cannot control rapists. I can control myself. And thinking and talking about ways to protect ourselves from predators does not create a world where rapists continue to rape. It does not translate to victim blame. That is just crazy. Rapists are going to rape. That is the sick world we live in. Edited June 8, 2016 by Scarlett

[zoobie]

Transgender people can be rapists, just like women and boys and girls and every other human can be rapists.

 

I don't know where you got your statistic about bathroom attacks by transgender people.  Or are you saying that because you don't happen to remember hearing of it happening?  Does law enforcement even track this statistic?

 

 

I'm not saying transgender people aren't ever rapists. I take issue with the phrasing that "most aren't." You're still implying there's some kind of danger associated simply with being transgender. Do you advocate laws restricting men's access to public spaces by saying, well, most men aren't rapists, but... 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations-debunk-bathroom-predator/story?id=38604019

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/debunking-bathroom-myths_b_8670438.html

 

Which analyzed the FBI's crime report, and if you want to look at it in full, it's here:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/rape 

 

That article states there was one case in Canada, but it was a man in disguise and not an actual transgendered person. 

 

Less than 1% of the population is transgender. If transgender people attacking people in bathrooms were an actual problem in the US, don't you think it would be in the news? The people passing or attempting to pass these laws would be publicizing the hell out of any case. They can't name one single instance or provide any concrete evidence of risk. 

[Murphy101]

It's because statements don't exist in a vacuum. They build on each other and cooraborate each other and create a "world" of attitudes and ideas.

 

Right now the idea that teaching women ways to be safer is the best we can do to prevent rape is so much a part of our world of ideas that Brock's supporters think he can redeem himself by starting a program to teach high school students about "the dangers of alcohol and sexual promiscuity."

 

Think about that for a minute. Mr. Rapist thinks he should get to tell young women not to drink and party, like the woman he attacked did, because if they do they might get raped.

 

In a world where the idea of *that* sounds plausible to anyone, the best thing we can do to protect our daughters is to raise a loud and unanimous OH HELL NO! to anything that suggests his stupid plan would be a net positive in the fight against rape. Yes, teach your kids about protecting themselves. But keep the public discourse very clear and very focused: rape is caused by rapists.

Everyone on this thread has been saying mr rapist is a bleep crackpot trying to say ANYTHING that makes him seem not a rapist or not a "really bad" rapist, as though there is any other kind.

 

Not one poster here has suggested listening to him or his supporters.

 

Quite the opposite actually.

[zoobie]

Perhaps SKL has me on ignore, lol, so maybe someone else can ask her where she gets the data that restrooms are common rape sites. Or maybe someone else is a better googler than I am.

I heard the same thing in FB, but it was from my insane farmer neighbor and he couldn't link any info, either, just a stupid meme.

 

I can't find anything either. Google pulls up everything on transgender laws. White males are statistically most likely to be the perpetrators of rape in the US. Maybe we should ban them from using bathrooms. (Sarcasm.)

 

Snopes has something that lists public restrooms as the number three location, so maybe it's based on an email forward from My Bigoted Uncle? 

As for the tidbit "The number one place women are abducted from/attacked at is grocery store parking lots. Number two is office parking lots/garages. Number three is public restrooms," Kathie Kramer, public relations coordinator at the Denver Rape Assistance and Awareness Program (RAAP) says, "Statistics in studies I've found don't support this idea about grocery stores or parking lots being especially unsafe." Location is important in a violent sexual assault, but there's nothing inherently dangerous about parking lots or public restrooms; what matters is their isolation. Areas heavily frequented by foot traffic are far less likely to be chosen by a rapist. Likewise, badly-lit, less-frequented places will be favored for this type of attack. 

http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp

Edited June 8, 2016 by zoobie

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Perhaps SKL has me on ignore, lol, so maybe someone else can ask her where she gets the data that restrooms are common rape sites. Or maybe someone else is a better googler than I am.

I heard the same thing in FB, but it was from my insane farmer neighbor and he couldn't link any info, either, just a stupid meme.

I have never seen any data to that effect. It is in the same vein of the claims that children are at high risk in public restrooms when that also is false.

[goldberry]

There is no reason we have to stop talking about safety precautions every time a rape case is discussed.

 

 

Tending to blame ourselves is not a a reason to stop taking steps to protect ourselves.

 

 

I just can't understand why it is so enraging to people to point out ways to be safer.

 

Scarlett, you are asking these questions and people are answering you.  You are just not hearing their answers.

 

No one is saying you can't point out ways to be safer.  They are saying it is offensive and has unintended consequences when you do so in the context of a rape discussion.  You may not feel that way, but other victims do feel that way, and it is kind and wise to consider what other victims feel.  It is kind and wise to consider that people you are talking to may be victims you don't know about, or may be future victims that will take what you say the wrong way.  It is kind and wise to take into consideration that what you say may contribute to a larger idea about rape that is destructive.

 

Please take a minute to re-read these responses:

 

 

 

I don't think there is a single poster on this thread that doesn't know all the safety precautions and practice a significant proportion of them.  I also doubt that there is a single poster on this thread who hasn't told their children those precautions at an age appropriate time. 

 

No one has said that you can't do the same for your children.

 

Again, where the push back comes from is that the very first comments and majority of the comments from you and similar posters concern the actions of the woman. This always gives the impression that the most important factor is the woman's actions, not the rapist's. That is the part that is offensive. For the victims on the thread, I would imagine that no amount of sugar coating can change that initial punch to the gut that those posts contribute.

 

 

 

 

Separate quote from someone else, my quoting got messed up:

 

I would think that people might be more worried about the actual victims in this very thread who have told you in their own words that it is offensive and incorrect to harp on about the imperfect actions of victims...

 

 

 

And: with our sons as well as with our daughters, there is always a real possibility that they do not hear precisely-exactly what we mean to say.

 

When we say to our daughters: there will always be "evil people" out there who want to rape you, so take every precaution, do not drink, do not dress immodestly, do not leave any drink unattended, do not hike or jog or walk alone, do not take night classes, do not go out late to pick up milk, always lock every window, our intent is to reduce the odds that they are attacked.  When we highlight the precautions that raped women might have taken that might have caused the rapist to choose a different victim, our intent as described by several pp above is to provide a "cautionary tale."  All reasonable.

 

But our daughters may well hear:  if you are raped, well, did you take each and every precaution?  And they may well remember the hundreds of object lessons ingrained into them over the course of their lifetimes where rape victims' behavior is scrutinized with a magnifying glass that simply does not come out, for say burglaries.

 

And the special-scrutiny, it's-so-blurry, shared-blame message our daughters hear could well inhibit them from doing the right thing if -- when -- God forbid, they're in a situation when a friend or they themselves have been harmed. 

 

 

And our sons?

 

When our sons hear, or overhear, the constant ubiquitous drumbeat of how women should not drink, should not dress immodestly, should not leave any drink unattended, should not hike or jog or walk alone, should not take night classes, should not go out late to pick up milk, should always lock every window?  Our intent is to reduce the odds that women are attacked.

 

But our sons may well hear: women who don't do each and every one of these things each and every time... are demonstrating poor judgment, risky behavior, are disrespecting themselves, are something a little less-than.

 

 

 

It's because statements don't exist in a vacuum. They build on each other and cooraborate each other and create a "world" of attitudes and ideas.

 

Right now the idea that teaching women ways to be safer is the best we can do to prevent rape is so much a part of our world of ideas that Brock's supporters think he can redeem himself by starting a program to teach high school students about "the dangers of alcohol and sexual promiscuity."

 

Think about that for a minute. Mr. Rapist thinks he should get to tell young women not to drink and party, like the woman he attacked did, because if they do they might get raped.

.

 

 

People are answering your questions.  Try to hear what they are saying and not immediately discount it.  It is something to think about.

 

ETA, you may well be hearing these answers and thinking "I just don't agree with them."  But this is one of those times that it doesn't really matter if you agree with the reasoning of it or not, these are the real effects that are happening - that is what you should try to hear.  So you can only decide if you want your words to have those effects or not.  

Edited June 8, 2016 by goldberry

[Leav97]

After reading comments from his family and friends, I was expecting much worse from his statement.  Now if he would stop calling it drinking and promiscuity.  

 

"Not only have I altered my life, but I’ve also changed [redacted] and her family’s life. I am the sole proprietor of what happened on the night that these people’s lives were changed forever. I would give anything to change what happened that night. I can never forgive myself for imposing trauma and pain on [redacted]. It debilitates me to think that my actions have caused her emotional and physical stress that is completely unwarranted and unfair."

[SKL]

You can google Transgender Assaults in Restrooms and find info. I found one site that claimed 5, but it's an iffy site.

The rest claim less, but do say transgendered males are quite likely to be attacked themselves.

But SKL, I can't find anything that claims restrooms are common sites for rape, no matter what terms I google. Where'd you find it? What exact term did you use for the search.

 

I'm inclined to ignore your post since you said something to me about a load of manure, but I'll get over that for the moment.  Yesterday my facebook timeline had a post that I've seen before also - someone interviewed convicted rapists about how they choose their victims etc.  One of the things that was said by the rapists was that public bathrooms are a common site of the attack.  It makes sense - there are never any cameras in there.  This had nothing to do with transgender people at all, but again, if any man can walk into a women's bathroom and hang in there, a person who is a rapist looking for a victim could benefit from that freedom.  I did also see a headline that it did happen recently (a rape in a women's bathroom by a guy posing as transgender), but I just saw it in passing and do not have a link.

 

I'm working on an urgent project with a client, so although I'm taking some breaks, I don't necessarily have time to do research, find links, or respond to every post.

 

FTR I am not against transgender people, nor for trans people feeling uncomfortable.  Before all this became a big thing, I am 100% certain that I shared bathrooms with trans people and nobody in there cared one bit.  On the other hand, I think the rights and feelings of all people deserve to be respected.  I don't think people are being creative enough about solutions.  I do think we will see progress over time.

[SKL]

I'm not saying transgender people aren't ever rapists. I take issue with the phrasing that "most aren't." You're still implying there's some kind of danger associated simply with being transgender. Do you advocate laws restricting men's access to public spaces by saying, well, most men aren't rapists, but... 

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations-debunk-bathroom-predator/story?id=38604019

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/debunking-bathroom-myths_b_8670438.html

 

Which analyzed the FBI's crime report, and if you want to look at it in full, it's here:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/rape 

 

That article states there was one case in Canada, but it was a man in disguise and not an actual transgendered person. 

 

Less than 1% of the population is transgender. If transgender people attacking people in bathrooms were an actual problem in the US, don't you think it would be in the news? The people passing or attempting to pass these laws would be publicizing the hell out of any case. They can't name one single instance or provide any concrete evidence of risk. 

 

You read into my comment the exact opposite of my intent.  I only said "most aren't" because I did NOT want anyone to assume I think trans people are any more dangerous than anyone else.  You took it to somehow mean they ARE dangerous.  See how bias makes conversations difficult?

[SKL]

I can't find anything either. Google pulls up everything on transgender laws. White males are statistically most likely to be the perpetrators of rape in the US. Maybe we should ban them from using bathrooms. (Sarcasm.)

 

Snopes has something that lists public restrooms as the number three location, so maybe it's based on an email forward from My Bigoted Uncle? 

As for the tidbit "The number one place women are abducted from/attacked at is grocery store parking lots. Number two is office parking lots/garages. Number three is public restrooms," Kathie Kramer, public relations coordinator at the Denver Rape Assistance and Awareness Program (RAAP) says, "Statistics in studies I've found don't support this idea about grocery stores or parking lots being especially unsafe." Location is important in a violent sexual assault, but there's nothing inherently dangerous about parking lots or public restrooms; what matters is their isolation. Areas heavily frequented by foot traffic are far less likely to be chosen by a rapist. Likewise, badly-lit, less-frequented places will be favored for this type of attack. 

http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/rape.asp

 

That is where I saw the bathroom comment (again NOT related to transgender people) most recently.  Snopes doesn't say it is true or false, so who knows.  Like I said, it makes sense since there are no cameras in there and there's lots of women going in there, letting their guard down, thinking they are safe.  Maybe there is another source that is more credible.  I do know people who have been attacked in the bathroom, and I also know people who were attacked in parking garages (my mother at 8.5mos pregnant for example).

 

ETA now when I try to google, all that comes up is arguments about transgender people.  I wonder how to get a statistic that isn't being twisted for purposes of propaganda.

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by SKL

[goldberry]

I believe the bathroom danger is credible.  I know two people personally who were assaulted in bathrooms.  

 

Nothing to do with the transgender thing though.

[zoobie]

That is where I saw the bathroom comment (again NOT related to transgender people) most recently.  Snopes doesn't say it is true or false, so who knows.  Like I said, it makes sense since there are no cameras in there and there's lots of women going in there, letting their guard down, thinking they are safe.  Maybe there is another source that is more credible.  I do know people who have been attacked in the bathroom, and I also know people who were attacked in parking garages (my mother at 8.5mos pregnant for example).

 

 

If lawmakers were really concerned about the safety of citizens in restrooms, they'd pass laws/codes requiring single occupancy style facilities. 

 

It does make sense that it's a vulnerable location. I don't agree (and it sounds like you don't either) that it's particularly vulnerable because of transgender people. Following along this--transgender doesn't align with sexual preference as I understand it. There are male rapists who rape males, and there are female rapists who rape females. Gender doesn't predict the rapist's victim gender. So how do these laws actually protect anyone? 

 

And re: the other post on "most" -- I hear what you are saying and seem to have misunderstood your intent with that word. I do think the language is important. There was one of those viral posts by some preacher's wife when the NC law first passed that was supposed to be inclusive, but really it still perpetuated the myth that transgender = dangerous. She was going to change her behavior and accompany her girls to the bathroom anyway, just in case. Though she was sure "most" people were only going in there to pee. 

[Scarlett]

I heard on the news this morning that the victim doesn't want him in jail. She wants him in treatment.

[SKL]

I heard on the news this morning that the victim doesn't want him in jail. She wants him in treatment.

 

Interesting.  A short jail sentence certainly won't rehabilitate him.  She doesn't want him doing this to someone else.

 

But at this point, does she have any say in the matter?

[Scarlett]

Interesting. A short jail sentence certainly won't rehabilitate him. She doesn't want him doing this to someone else.

 

But at this point, does she have any say in the matter?

I don't know. If I understood the brief clip I heard it was part of her victim statement before sentencing. Maybe the judge ordered 6 ,months jail time and rehabilitation? I don't know.

[Scarlett]

After reading comments from his family and friends, I was expecting much worse from his statement. Now if he would stop calling it drinking and promiscuity.

 

"Not only have I altered my life, but I’ve also changed [redacted] and her family’s life. I am the sole proprietor of what happened on the night that these people’s lives were changed forever. I would give anything to change what happened that night. I can never forgive myself for imposing trauma and pain on [redacted]. It debilitates me to think that my actions have caused her emotional and physical stress that is completely unwarranted and unfair."

Notice the word 'happened'. I think it is very telling. My Xh used that word to describe his affair. I told him 'tornados HAPPEN. You conducted an affair.'

[Leav97]

Notice the word 'happened'. I think it is very telling. My Xh used that word to describe his affair. I told him 'tornados HAPPEN. You conducted an affair.'

 

Oh, I don't disagree.  I still think he's a rapist who is working to frame his actions as a whoopies I made a little mistake cause I drank too much.  But after reading his dad's "20 minutes of action" comment I was expecting worse.

[FaithManor]

I was in court for my dad the other day, and four defendants on the docket were there for single counts of possession of small amounts of weed. And getting jail time of around two years give or take time served at that point for those that hadn't been able to post bond.

 

Really?????  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:  Anything over 1 yr. goes from county lock up to the penitentery. Good grief. What a way to clutter up the prison system with people who shouldn't be there and aren't hurting anyone else, meanwhile you just no some sick twisted slime is being released early so he can go find new victims.

 

Sigh....

 

 

I think it starts with "we the people" getting downright irate, demanding the end of mandatory minimums for possession charges, demanding rehab for drug and alcohol addicts instead of jail, demanding changes to our criminal code, and voting out BAD judges, bad sheriffs, bad prosecutors. We need to look at their track records and vote accordingly. I do think the judge in this particular case may be at the end of his judicial career because this has gone viral. That is at least some small, good thing that will come out of what is a horrifying situation. I hope that it will set a precedent for other judges to see that maybe Americans have had enough of this.

 

We also need to track judges by racial bias in their sentencing and prosecutors for the charges they levy along racial lines so we can start rooting that out with our votes. 

[Scarlett]

Scarlett, you are asking these questions and people are answering you. You are just not hearing their answers.

 

No one is saying you can't point out ways to be safer. They are saying it is offensive and has unintended consequences when you do so in the context of a rape discussion. You may not feel that way, but other victims do feel that way, and it is kind and wise to consider what other victims feel. It is kind and wise to consider that people you are talking to may be victims you don't know about, or may be future victims that will take what you say the wrong way. It is kind and wise to take into consideration that what you say may contribute to a larger idea about rape that is destructive.

 

Please take a minute to re-read these responses:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People are answering your questions. Try to hear what they are saying and not immediately discount it. It is something to think about.

 

ETA, you may well be hearing these answers and thinking "I just don't agree with them." But this is one of those times that it doesn't really matter if you agree with the reasoning of it or not, these are the real effects that are happening - that is what you should try to hear. So you can only decide if you want your words to have those effects or not.

I responded to a lot of those comments in your quote. I do just completely disagree with the entire premise. And if victims are feeling offended by very normal practical comments about staying safe and or if those comments are causing them to feel they are being blamed then it might be possible they need some help to get all that straightened out in their head.

 

of course there are people out there who actually are,blaming the Victim. I am not one of those people and I have seen very little evidence of that in this thread.

[Scarlett]

Oh, I don't disagree. I still think he's a rapist who is working to frame his actions as a whoopies I made a little mistake cause I drank too much. But after reading his dad's "20 minutes of action" comment I was expecting worse.

Ugh. Yes I understand. That dads comment just leaves me feeling ill.

[poppy]

I responded to a lot of those comments in your quote. I do just completely disagree with the entire premise. And if victims are feeling offended by very normal practical comments about staying safe and or if those comments are causing them to feel they are being blamed then it might be possible they need some help to get all that straightened out in their head.

 

of course there are people out there who actually are,blaming the Victim. I am not one of those people and I have seen very little evidence of that in this thread.

 

I think it's safe to say that once a discussion reaches the point of "people who do not think like me must need therapy".... it is not a useful conversation anymore.

[goldberry]

I responded to a lot of those comments in your quote. I do just completely disagree with the entire premise. And if victims are feeling offended by very normal practical comments about staying safe and or if those comments are causing them to feel they are being blamed then it might be possible they need some help to get all that straightened out in their head.

 

 

 

I tried, folks! ;)

Edited June 8, 2016 by goldberry

[Scarlett]

I think it's safe to say that once a discussion reaches the point of "people who do not think like me must need therapy".... it is not a useful conversation anymore.

Right sort of like stop speaking about safety measures because it makes people feel like you are blaming them. That is one way to shut down a conversation completely.

[Scarlett]

I tried, folks! ;)

Thank you for your efforts.

[Corraleno]

I heard on the news this morning that the victim doesn't want him in jail. She wants him in treatment.

 

That is not true. A large part of the statement she read in court focused on her anger at what a light sentence he got. She explicitly says:

 

I told the probation officer I do not want Brock to rot away in prison. I did not say he does not deserve to be behind bars. The probation officer’s recommendation of a year or less in county jail is a soft time­out, a mockery of the seriousness of his assaults, an insult to me and all women.

 

There's a big difference between not wanting him to spend his life in prison, and not wanting him to have any jail time. 

[swimmermom3]

Yeah, I just heard about that tonight on an updated column. They're heroes and did the right thing even when the wrong thing might have been easier. Castigating the rapist is one part of the equation, but adequately celebrating the good Samaritans and showing that part of the story to our kids is the other part of this I hope families are discussing.

 

Do you or anyone else know if other students on the Stanford campus harassed these two young men after people learned that they stopped the attack?

 

My 21 yo son and I have been talking a lot about the case and about these two guys.  Part of that conversation centered around how awful people can be when you do the right thing and how dealing with that backlash can discourage people from stepping up.

 

I hope they have been able to get on with their lives with a lot of positive support.

 

[Scarlett]

That is not true. A large part of the statement she read in court focused on her anger at what a light sentence he got. She explicitly says:

 

 

There's a big difference between not wanting him to spend his life in prison, and not wanting him to have any jail time.

 

Ok thank you. I was on my way out the door and didn't have time to look it up. It did not sound right based upon what I've read in this thread.

[Corraleno]

After reading comments from his family and friends, I was expecting much worse from his statement.  Now if he would stop calling it drinking and promiscuity.  

 

"Not only have I altered my life, but I’ve also changed [redacted] and her family’s life. I am the sole proprietor of what happened on the night that these people’s lives were changed forever. I would give anything to change what happened that night. I can never forgive myself for imposing trauma and pain on [redacted]. It debilitates me to think that my actions have caused her emotional and physical stress that is completely unwarranted and unfair."

 

But that was written (no doubt with the assistance of his lawyer) as a plea for leniency after he was convicted.

 

He blames alcohol and partying culture and "the influence of peer pressure and the attitude of having to fit in" for what happened to this woman. He says he wishes he could go back in time and never take a drink or "interact with [the victim]." Instead of wishing he'd never raped her, he wishes he'd never met her — because if he hadn't met this drunk girl who wanted to have sex with him, his life wouldn't have been ruined??? I found his letter every bit as appalling as his father's and friends' letters.

 

In the trial he stated that she repeatedly gave consent, that he had no idea she was unconscious, and that he believed she liked it. There is nothing he can say now, or for the rest of his life, that can mitigate the fact that he claimed, under oath, that the victim enjoyed being stripped and assaulted so roughly that there were abrasions, dirt, and pine needles in her vagina.

[swimmermom3]

I'm sorry if I offended or hurt you, Katie. I haven't posted on this thread in several days, but I have been thinking about it quite a lot.

 

There are so many aspects of this issue that are hard for many of us to wrap our heads and our hearts around.  :grouphug:

 

[Corraleno]

What I was thinking about later and couldn't help wondering was did anyone else see? Is it possible American students see & not say anything? Or maybe it's just a coincidence these are foreign students. I don't know ....but it got me thinking because there have been a number of cases where events were witnessed, video'd, or groups participated in sexual assaults on campuses. It seems that this part of this culture so I wondered if some other men had seen this & not done anything....

 

There were four American students who were interviewed by police. Two were students who saw Turner being held down and, thinking it was a fight, went to see what was happening. They did not see the victim.

 

The third, Robbins, was the one who actually called 911 when he saw the victim lying behind the dumpster. It wasn't stated in the report, but presumably this was when the two Swedish student had tackled Turner some distance away from the dumpster after he ran.

 

The fourth student, Bolton, said he saw a man standing over the victim with a cell phone shining a light on the victim with either the flashlight app or camera flash. He asked the man what was going on, but he didn't respond. Bolton then knelt down to check the victim's pulse and said that when he stood up the other guy was gone. I haven't seen any further information about that, but I really hope the guy with the cell phone was not taking photos.  :sad:

[FaithManor]

https://mic.com/articles/114066/statistics-show-exactly-how-many-times-trans-people-have-attacked-you-in-bathrooms#.NblVVTvVW

 

This article contains some good statistics.

 

Since the FBI estimates that only 26% off all sexual crimes are reported, that means that very likely, the one in four women statistic often quoted is fairly credible. When I was in college, surveys on campus indicated that this was consistent. Not all were rapes, many of the women were molested and particularly during their young years, but we are talking about life changing sexual assault none the less.

 

Transgender people are often the targets of serious physical confrontations. My own niece, who is not transgender but whom some would refer to as "tomboyish" was smacked around in the girls' bathroom at school by a group of cheerleaders and told to "girl up". I think it is probably even worse for boys who are either transgender female or just guys who do not appear "man enough" or are artistic or whatever. In college, one of the guys from the art department was beat up by a couple guys on the soccer team for "not being man enough". Sigh....I worry a lot about how this legislation will just lead to more assault, period. It isn't going to protect anyone.

 

Mostly, our country seems to be completely and utterly screwed up when it comes to sex, gender, and crime. and some of our politicians seem to manage to hatch the most hair-brained, stupid, illogical public policies such that matters can only get worse not better,

 

Seriously, we just need to clean house in this nation. Politically and judicially. And I think community law enforcement needs a LOT more training.