Because "well, they were both drunk, so..." comes up so often in discussions about rape...

[Xuzi]

Read this long, but very powerful letter written by the victim of a frat party sexual assault, to her convicted rapist. (who only got *6 months* jail time because the judge thought more than that would be "too harsh"  :cursing: )

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-letter-the-stanford-victim-read-to-her-ra

[ktgrok]

Yeah, I just read that a few minutes ago. I'm sick to my stomach. This quote stood out to me: 

 

"Note; if a girl falls down help her get back up. If she is too drunk to even walk and falls down, do not mount her, hump her, take off her underwear, and insert your hand inside her vagina. If a girl falls down help her up. If she is wearing a cardigan over her dress don’t take it off so that you can touch her breasts. Maybe she is cold, maybe that’s why she wore the cardigan."

[Amira]

Thank you for posting this.

[poppy]

What a powerful letter. I'm glad I read it and I hope it spreads.

 

I can't believe they listed his swimming times in the news article about the attack. He assaulted a helpless woman and then left her naked and spread eagle behind a dumpster to be found. Plus: good swimmer!

[FaithManor]

What a powerful letter. I'm glad I read it and I hope it spreads.

 

I can't believe they listed his swimming times in the news article about the attack. He assaulted a helpless woman and then left her naked and spread eagle behind a dumpster to be found. Plus: good swimmer!

Yes, I found that so distasteful and disturbing. So we give leniency for heinous crimes because someone is good at something??? I don't think so!

 

Six months.  :svengo:  :svengo:  :svengo:  So much for commit the crime, do the time.

 

I am beginning to think that a couple of publicly televised castratings might be needed in order to get the message out. Yes, I know, it is a good thing that Faith did not become a judge or a legislature because the cruel and unusual punishment clause is time and time again, lost on me!

[Farrar]

I've seen that shared a lot, which is good. It's haunting. I know this stuff is true. I'm not surprised by it, but it's just so horrible.

[ktgrok]

As someone who has woken up to someone in bed with her, it really hit home. And my experience was the same...no acknowledgement it was wrong. "Oh, i didn't realize you were THAT drunk." Um, the unconscious part wasn't a clue?????

 

Like that tea story says, unconscious people don't want tea. Of any kind. EVER. 

[Xuzi]

As someone who has woken up to someone in bed with her, it really hit home. And my experience was the same...no acknowledgement it was wrong. "Oh, i didn't realize you were THAT drunk." Um, the unconscious part wasn't a clue?????

 

Like that tea story says, unconscious people don't want tea. Of any kind. EVER. 

It's amazing how many people see no problem with it. :(

 

When I was a sophomore in HS I overheard a guy in my English class grumble about missing a party that had gone on over the weekend. He'd heard later that some girl he thought was "hot" had been at that party and had gotten "passed out drunk" and he said if he'd known she was going to be there getting drunk he'd have gone, because then he could have "totally f***ed her."

 

It's disgusting. :(

[Anne in CA]

Wow, I can't believe the judge was so concerned that a rapist might have a hard time in prison, or that we need rapists on the Olympic swim team. I may find out how to contact the Olympic Committee and demand that he not participate. What a horrible person.

[ktgrok]

What's really sad is that the ONLY part of this story I found at all surprising was that the guy was convicted. 

[Anne in CA]

Also, this is indicative of the new class structure. Prison is only for lower income people, evidently. The courts don't want "their own" in prison. Somehow the judge identified with the defendant and didn't think he belonged in prison no matter what his crime.

[MrsMommy]

What's really sad is that the ONLY part of this story I found at all surprising was that the guy was convicted. 

 

I was thinking the exact same thing.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It's of course disgusting, but to be fair, it's not the only time that crimes committed while drunk are treated differently than when sober.  I guess the idea being the person's judgement was impaired and it was not premeditated.  To which I say bull crap because you had control over getting pi$$ drunk (unless someone tainted your beverage or something). 

 

 

[PrincessMommy]

His sentence is very sad.   My only hope is that since he was convicted that he will be on a sex offender's list for the rest of his life. 

[ktgrok]

His sentence is very sad.   My only hope is that since he was convicted that he will be on a sex offender's list for the rest of his life. 

 

yeah, but he'll just explain that to everyone as a case of two drunk people, she had regrets, they never even had sex, blah blah blah. And people will believe it. And think how sad that this poor guy is stuck on the registry. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

Also, this is indicative of the new class structure. Prison is only for lower income people, evidently. The courts don't want "their own" in prison. Somehow the judge identified with the defendant and didn't think he belonged in prison no matter what his crime.

Unfortunately, this is not new.  What is new is that it is finally getting some attention (or that he actually got convicted in the first place.)  Rich and/or famous people have always had an advantage in court. 

[FaithManor]

The judge's thinking is just so @$$ backwards. Medieval.

 

There needs to be a concerted effort of the voting public to get rid of these sub human "honors". Yah, "your honor", dry that out and you can fertilize the lawn with it.

[Ravin]

It's the defense attorney's job to make the arguments he made. It's the judge's job to weigh such arguments appropriately. At a minimum, a judge usually looks for actual contrition in addition to the other factors given for a mitigated sentence.

 

I find this result to be off, and for once the lifetime sex offender registration seems less unfair than it often does, precisely because of his lack of contrition, which suggests nothing in the process is likely to have changed his thinking and made him a lower risk for fu ture offenses.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Ravin

[FaithManor]

It's the defense attorney's job to make the arguments he made. It's the judge's job to weigh such arguments appropriately. At a minimum, a judge usually looks for actual contrition in addition to the other factors given for a mitigated sentence.

 

I find this result to be off, and for once the lifetime sex offender registration seems less unfair than it often does, precisely because of his lack of contrition, which suggests nothing in the process is likely to have changed his thinking and made him a lower risk for fu ture offenses.

Agreed. He robbed the bank and got sentenced for stealing licorice from the candy store. Combined with lack of remorse and acknowledgement of the severity of the crime, his chance of recidivism remains high.

Wow, I can't believe the judge was so concerned that a rapist might have a hard time in prison, or that we need rapists on the Olympic swim team. I may find out how to contact the Olympic Committee and demand that he not participate. What a horrible person.

 

Note that Stanford did immediately kick him off the swim team, and off of campus, even before the conviction, and it is very unlikely that USA Swimming will allow him to participate in the Olympic trials this summer.

[goldberry]

The woman's statement cuts straight to the heart of the matter on every issue.  What an eloquent and brave young woman.  

[PrincessMommy]

Note that Stanford did immediately kick him off the swim team, and off of campus, even before the conviction, and it is very unlikely that USA Swimming will allow him to participate in the Olympic trials this summer.

 

This gives me hope.  Maybe things are changing - albeit at a glacial rate.

[Soror]

Thanks for sharing.

[MercyA]

It's of course disgusting, but to be fair, it's not the only time that crimes committed while drunk are treated differently than when sober.  I guess the idea being the person's judgement was impaired and it was not premeditated.  To which I say bull crap because you had control over getting pi$$ drunk (unless someone tainted your beverage or something). 

 

True. The victim also had control over getting drunk. She was (I believe) a college graduate, not some 15-year-old drinking for the first time. 

 

The perpetrator is absolutely responsible for his vile, immoral, and utterly selfish crime. His lack of contrition is horrifying, as is the judge's concern for (of all things!) the perpetrator's swimming career.

 

That said, after reading the victim's letter, I don't have the sense that she felt responsible for putting herself in an unsafe situation (pass-out drunk at a frat party). Sometimes when you behave foolishly, you are more likely to have bad things happen to you. That doesn't mean she "deserved" to have something bad to happen to her, or that the man who assaulted her shouldn't be punished. In a perfect world, people would always come to the aid of those who have behaved foolishly, rather than taking advantage of them. I'm glad the two bicyclists did just that. However, had she shown better judgment in the first place, she likely would have avoided the whole terrible ordeal.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

True. The victim also had control over getting drunk. She was (I believe) a college graduate, not some 15-year-old drinking for the first time. 

 

The perpetrator is absolutely responsible for his vile, immoral, and utterly selfish crime. His lack of contrition is horrifying, as is the judge's concern for (of all things!) the perpetrator's swimming career.

 

That said, after reading the victim's letter, I don't have the sense that she felt responsible for putting herself in an unsafe situation (pass-out drunk at a frat party). Sometimes when you behave foolishly, you are more likely to have bad things happen to you. That doesn't mean she "deserved" to have something bad to happen to her, or that the man who assaulted her shouldn't be punished. In a perfect world, people would always come to the aid of those who have behaved foolishly, rather than taking advantage of them. I'm glad the two bicyclists did just that. However, had she shown better judgment in the first place, she likely would have avoided the whole terrible ordeal.

 

The punishment for poor judgement shouldn't be rape.  And frankly, no matter where you pass out on a college campus, the expectation shouldn't be rape. 

 

[Xuzi]

True. The victim also had control over getting drunk. She was (I believe) a college graduate, not some 15-year-old drinking for the first time.

 

The perpetrator is absolutely responsible for his vile, immoral, and utterly selfish crime. His lack of contrition is horrifying, as is the judge's concern for (of all things!) the perpetrator's swimming career.

 

That said, after reading the victim's letter, I don't have the sense that she felt responsible for putting herself in an unsafe situation (pass-out drunk at a frat party). Sometimes when you behave foolishly, you are more likely to have bad things happen to you. That doesn't mean she "deserved" to have something bad to happen to her, or that the man who assaulted her shouldn't be punished. In a perfect world, people would always come to the aid of those who have behaved foolishly, rather than taking advantage of them. I'm glad the two bicyclists did just that. However, had she shown better judgment in the first place, she likely would have avoided the whole terrible ordeal.

No, if he hadn't assaulted her, she could have avoided the whole terrible ordeal. And if he hadn't picked her (if she'd been sober, or stuck by her sister, or just stayed home like a "good girl"), I don't doubt he would have found someone else.

[Caroline]

This is not true. She did say if she hadn't gone to the party it wouldn't have happened to her. But she goes on to say that it would have just been someone else.

 

"Sometimes I think, if I hadn’t gone, then this never would’ve happened. But then I realized, it would have happened, just to somebody else. You were about to enter four years of access to drunk girls and parties, and if this is the foot you started off on, then it is right you did not continue. The night after it happened, he said he thought I liked it because I rubbed his back. A back rub."

 

True. The victim also had control over getting drunk. She was (I believe) a college graduate, not some 15-year-old drinking for the first time.

 

The perpetrator is absolutely responsible for his vile, immoral, and utterly selfish crime. His lack of contrition is horrifying, as is the judge's concern for (of all things!) the perpetrator's swimming career.

 

That said, after reading the victim's letter, I don't have the sense that she felt responsible for putting herself in an unsafe situation (pass-out drunk at a frat party). Sometimes when you behave foolishly, you are more likely to have bad things happen to you. That doesn't mean she "deserved" to have something bad to happen to her, or that the man who assaulted her shouldn't be punished. In a perfect world, people would always come to the aid of those who have behaved foolishly, rather than taking advantage of them. I'm glad the two bicyclists did just that. However, had she shown better judgment in the first place, she likely would have avoided the whole terrible ordeal.

[Crimson Wife]

What's really sad is that the ONLY part of this story I found at all surprising was that the guy was convicted. 

 

The Stanford aquatics program (both swimmers and water polo players) unfortunately has had a long-standing issue with sexual assault. I arrived on campus in '95 and was promptly warned by upperclass women to stay away from them. It outrageous that here it is two decades later and the same kind of appalling and criminal behavior continues. The victim is luckier than most because the crime got interrupted by two fellow students, who called the police.

[Ravin]

True. The victim also had control over getting drunk. She was (I believe) a college graduate, not some 15-year-old drinking for the first time.

 

The perpetrator is absolutely responsible for his vile, immoral, and utterly selfish crime. His lack of contrition is horrifying, as is the judge's concern for (of all things!) the perpetrator's swimming career.

 

That said, after reading the victim's letter, I don't have the sense that she felt responsible for putting herself in an unsafe situation (pass-out drunk at a frat party). Sometimes when you behave foolishly, you are more likely to have bad things happen to you. That doesn't mean she "deserved" to have something bad to happen to her, or that the man who assaulted her shouldn't be punished. In a perfect world, people would always come to the aid of those who have behaved foolishly, rather than taking advantage of them. I'm glad the two bicyclists did just that. However, had she shown better judgment in the first place, she likely would have avoided the whole terrible ordeal.

This is victim blaming. This is the sort of attitude that contributes to this kind of crime not being taken seriously.

[MrsMommy]

True. The victim also had control over getting drunk. She was (I believe) a college graduate, not some 15-year-old drinking for the first time. 

 

The perpetrator is absolutely responsible for his vile, immoral, and utterly selfish crime. His lack of contrition is horrifying, as is the judge's concern for (of all things!) the perpetrator's swimming career.

 

That said, after reading the victim's letter, I don't have the sense that she felt responsible for putting herself in an unsafe situation (pass-out drunk at a frat party). Sometimes when you behave foolishly, you are more likely to have bad things happen to you. That doesn't mean she "deserved" to have something bad to happen to her, or that the man who assaulted her shouldn't be punished. In a perfect world, people would always come to the aid of those who have behaved foolishly, rather than taking advantage of them. I'm glad the two bicyclists did just that. However, had she shown better judgment in the first place, she likely would have avoided the whole terrible ordeal.

 

No. Just no. A man's responsibility not to assault me is greater than my responsibility not to great drunk. Always.

[MercyA]

This is not true. She did say if she hadn't gone to the party it wouldn't have happened to her. But she goes on to say that it would have just been someone else.

 

"Sometimes I think, if I hadn’t gone, then this never would’ve happened. But then I realized, it would have happened, just to somebody else. You were about to enter four years of access to drunk girls and parties, and if this is the foot you started off on, then it is right you did not continue. The night after it happened, he said he thought I liked it because I rubbed his back. A back rub."

 

Yes, I noticed that in her response. She can't know that for sure. She can only know that it wouldn't have happened to her.

 

However, I think it is probably a comforting thought for her to have, to know that he because he was apprehended, he wasn't able to commit other crimes. I don't blame her at all for having that thought.

[MercyA]

No, if he hadn't assaulted her, she could have avoided the whole terrible ordeal. And if he hadn't picked her (if she'd been sober, or stuck by her sister, or just stayed home like a "good girl"), I don't doubt he would have found someone else.

 

Maybe. She is responsible for her actions, and he is responsible for his. Hers weren't criminal, but they were foolish.

[MercyA]

The punishment for poor judgement shouldn't be rape.  And frankly, no matter where you pass out on a college campus, the expectation shouldn't be rape. 

 

And that is why I said she didn't deserve it. I agree that the expectation shouldn't be rape. That doesn't mean women shouldn't take steps to protect themselves.

[Farrar]

Ugh. I wondered how long it would take for this thread to turn to victim bashing.

[MercyA]

No. Just no. A man's responsibility not to assault me is greater than my responsibility not to great drunk. Always.

 

Of course. I didn't say that he didn't have greater responsibility for the crime. He obviously did. That doesn't mean, however, that she had zero responsibility for doing what she knew would lead to impaired judgment.

[Caroline]

Yes, I noticed that in her response. She can't know that for sure. She can only know that it wouldn't have happened to her.

 

However, I think it is probably a comforting thought for her to have, to know that he because he was apprehended, he wasn't able to commit other crimes. I don't blame her at all for having that thought.

I cannot believe you are blaming her. i just cannot believe it. You are blaming her for him being a rapist. Just no.

[Ali in OR]

I don't blame her at all and I think it is wonderful that she is so eloquently telling her story. It won't be so easy for him to "move on with his life" now. However, I would also use her experience to teach my girls who wouldn't naturally know what risks may await them at frat parties. That's not the same thing as blaming her, but it may help protect others to consider what choices she could have made differently (eg don't go to frat parties, never more than one drink, better yet stick with soda, stay with your sister/buddy, watch out for each other, etc.).

Edited June 4, 2016 by Ali in OR

[Farrar]

I cannot believe you are blaming her. i just cannot believe it. You are blaming her for him being a rapist. Just no.

 

But, really, are we surprised that someone didn't chime in with, "Well, it's partly her fault"? Because I wish I were, but I'm not. It's how that piece of trash ended up with such a lenient sentence in the first place.

[Caroline]

But, really, are we surprised that someone didn't chime in with, "Well, it's partly her fault"? Because I wish I were, but I'm not. It's how that piece of trash ended up with such a lenient sentence in the first place.

No, I'm not surprised. I wish I were surprised, but I am not.

[Guest]

Of course. I didn't say that he didn't have greater responsibility for the crime. He obviously did. That doesn't mean, however, that she had zero responsibility for doing what she knew would lead to impaired judgment.

 

I think the two things that get wrongly conflated are that 1--Everyone wants to feel and BE safe in an unsafe world. So, unfortunately this means that women do frequently have to take measures for their personal safety that they shouldn't have to take.

 

and 2--responsibility.

 

Responsibility is a loaded word. It has no place on the victim side of the aisle in any discussion about rape, ever. In any context, with any addendums.

 

The victim bears NO NONE ZERO responsibility for being raped.....is not negated by what women sometimes feel compelled to do to stay safe out there.

 

 

[MercyA]

I cannot believe you are blaming her. i just cannot believe it. You are blaming her for him being a rapist. Just no.

 

No, I don't blame her for the rape. I blame her for getting so drunk that she passed out unconscious. I don't think that is the same thing.

 

Look, I'm willing to listen to all of your perspectives. There's no need to crucify me.  ;) I've been wrong before. 

 

Ravin, I am especially interested in your thoughts. What is the difference between victim blaming, and recognizing that the victim did in fact have some responsibility--in this imperfect world--to retain control of her judgment and functioning in order to keep herself safe? Is there a difference?

[Guest]

I don't blame her at all and I think it is wonderful that she is so eloquently telling her story. It won't be so easy for him to "move on with his life" now. .

 

All previous evidence suggests it will be real easy for him to move on with his life. He won't be able to be an Olympian, maybe, but neither will I so it's hard to see that as a real handicap. Especially relative to what he has done.

[MercyA]

I think the two things that get wrongly conflated are that 1--Everyone wants to feel and BE safe in an unsafe world. So, unfortunately this means that women do frequently have to take measures for their personal safety that they shouldn't have to take.

 

and 2--responsibility.

 

Responsibility is a loaded word. It has no place on the victim side of the aisle in any discussion about rape, ever. In any context, with any addendums.

 

The victim bears NO NONE ZERO responsibility for being raped.....is not negated by what women sometimes feel compelled to do to stay safe out there.

 

Thanks for your well-reasoned response, okbud.

[MrsMommy]

Of course. I didn't say that he didn't have greater responsibility for the crime. He obviously did. That doesn't mean, however, that she had zero responsibility for doing what she knew would lead to impaired judgment.

 

Not buying it. That line of thinking still blames the victim. Unacceptable.

[Guest]

Ravin, I am especially interested in your thoughts. What is the difference between victim blaming, and recognizing that the victim did in fact have some responsibility--in this imperfect world--to retain control of her judgment and functioning in order to keep herself safe? Is there a difference?

 

It's like if a deranged semi driver saw you coming down the freeway and decided to veer over and SMASH into your car with you inside.

 

and then someone came along and said, "Hey Mercy! Obviously it's the trucker's responsibility he mowed you down...but come on now! We've all seen the statistics about how driving is the most dangerous thing you can do. You bear SOME responsibility for getting in your death-box car!"

 

It'd be super wrong, right? It would be THEEE case that the trucker should have stayed in his lane. There'd be no moral question about the horror perpetrated upon you by a jagoff with a violent streak.

[Guest]

Thanks for your well-reasoned response, okbud.

 

I think I *kind of* see what you mean, because you want to be safe...you want your daughters, your friends, your sisters to be safe.

 

But violence is as violence does ykwim, sis?

 

I believe we each have to focus *all* our energies into the hammers we can bring down on rapists. Getting side tracked with what portion of the "responsibility:" lays at the feet of victims is a helpful boon to rapists. They count on society's partial complicity via our partial relegation of blame to other parties!

[Anne in CA]

I agree that it will be too easy for him to move on with his life. So he won't be an Olympian. Big whoop. Billions of people aren't and they survive happily. I called the Santa Clara court to complain about the judge, what do you know, his voicemail is full and you can't send an email. Jerks. I see he has tenure so he felt free to do this.

 

I am glad that Stanford removed him from campus.

 

I believe that when someone gets away with something they do it again. The question is whether or not he feels he is getting away with something. Did the six months in county stop him from feeling entitled to get away with this??? I don't know. But the fact is that I was a bartender for years. Most of the men I saw get drunk and don't rape people or act like they want to. He did it because he IS a rapist and his inhibitions were lowered. Alcohol does not take over a person's moral compass, it relaxes it. He did what he already wanted to do. He may get more stealthy as time goes by, or he may choose to control himself more and not commit the same crime, but a rapist is his real identity.

[MercyA]

It's like if a deranged semi driver saw you coming down the freeway and decided to veer over and SMASH into your car with you inside.

 

and then someone came along and said, "Hey Mercy! Obviously it's the trucker's responsibility he mowed you down...but come on now! We've all seen the statistics about how driving is the most dangerous thing you can do. You bear SOME responsibility for getting in your death-box car!"

 

It'd be super wrong, right? It would be THEEE case that the trucker should have stayed in his lane. There'd be no moral question about the horror perpetrated upon you by a jagoff with a violent streak.

 

Now, see, guys, that's how you make a convincing argument. Shouting "victim blamer" at me is not going to change my mind.  :smash:

 

I guess I would just say that at least I can still control my own driving, if I'm not drunk, and might have a better chance of avoiding said deranged semi driver. You're right that I wouldn't bear responsibility for getting mowed into, regardless, but I would have a greater chance of it not happening if I was not also impaired. Right? Or is that just obvious and not necessary (and/or too offensive) to say?

[MercyA]

I believe we each have to focus *all* our energies into the hammers we can bring down on rapists. Getting side tracked with what portion of the "responsibility:" lays at the feet of victims is a helpful boon to rapists. They count on society's partial complicity via our partial relegation of blame to other parties!

 

Okay, I get what you're saying. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

[Guest]

Now, see, guys, that's how you make a convincing argument. Shouting "victim blamer" at me is not going to change my mind.  :smash:

 

I guess I would just say that at least I can still control my own driving, if I'm not drunk, and might have a better chance of avoiding said deranged semi driver. You're right that I wouldn't bear responsibility for getting mowed into, regardless, but I would have a greater chance of it not happening if I was not also impaired. Right? Or is that just obvious and not necessary (and/or too offensive) to say?

 

Well, in my poorly-executed metaphor, the analogous thing...the "dangerous action'...to getting drunk, is getting in your car.

Edited June 4, 2016 by OKBud