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Because "well, they were both drunk, so..." comes up so often in discussions about rape...


Xuzi
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I don't know anyone like that at all. No one I know is worried about transgendered assaulting women In restrooms.....and no one I know disbelieved a rape victim. Believing a rape victim and proving her rapist guilty under the law are two very different things.

 

Michelle Duggar, who has a very high profile among conservative Christians.

 

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A significant number of rapes occur in settings where the victim trusts the rapist. She may have known him for a while. He may be a friend.

 

Have you never had a glass of wine with a male friend?

 

Have you never been drunk with a male that you trust?

 

Maybe you haven't.

 

So no drinking with a male ever? Because you have to control yourself to be safe.

 

When I was in college, I worked a graveyard shift and had to walk two blocks from where I parked to my apartment over a grocery store at 2 am. By the standards here, I was an idiot. I did what I did because I had to. It's not the same as drinking to excess, but I sure as heck wasn't following the safety protocol.

 

Stop rapists? Well, maybe we could begin by not elevating athletes to god status and giving them free passes for bad behavior. Maybe we can boycott the hell out of companies that make ads that promote getting your good friend drunk so you can get some action. Maybe country singer Luke Bryan shouldn't make all his songs about getting drunk and getting laid.

 

Maybe we should continue to teach our daughters that sleeping with a guy is not the way to get him to love you. That's still a fairly prevalent attitude in spite of the hook-up culture.

 

I am willing to bet you there are a whole lot of guys who think if they take a girl to the prom, their entitled to "some." Can we work on that?

 

I don't know, Scarlett, but I am willing to try and do more than be safe. I have both a daughter and two sons. I'd like it to go well for all of them.

 

Oh well yes I have had a glass of wine with a male friend. In my home with my husband there and my 2 year old sleeping in his crib. In fact I probably had several glasses of wine. No one was crazy or out of control. I went to bed around midnight..,..I know shocking for a mom of a 2 year old.......and my then husband and his friend and the friends 21 yo son that I had known since he was 4...and my brother and his wife....they all were on the patio still drinking and talking. The 21 yo came in to ' go to the bathroom', it was my brother who noticed he had been gone a while and sent my Xh in to check on him. He found him naked in bed with me.

 

So yeah, I know. I don't know what to do to stop such crap except to be on constant watch. My Xh did not handle it right at all. And I don't judge myself based upon his version of that night.

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If any of you think you can control or stop rapists be my guest.

 

 

There is some hope on that front, actually:  http://www.upworthy.com/kenyas-unique-approach-to-rape-prevention-should-have-the-rest-of-the-world-taking-note?c=ufb3

 

And here's the abstract for the study:  http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/early/2015/06/03/0886260515586367.abstract

 

Perhaps there are other programs like this out there.  I sincerely hope so.  This is the only one I've personally heard of.

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It is not taboo. Sometimes on this board, there is a lot of backlash because the discussion around particular rape cases always dissolves into the "if she hadn't drank that, wore that, went there, it wouldn't have happened." Every blinking discussion. It's usually the same group of posters and they are usually conservative.

Without Carly Simoning this post, it would be helpful if when this happens, people would quote the post directly and respond to it as it's written instead of making these types of general assertions. I saw nothing but acknowledgement on this thread that the rapist was the one resposible for the rape and it was not the victim's fault in any way. In fact, that is one of the few things agreed upon by everyone that I could see.

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Michelle Duggar, who has a very high profile among conservative Christians.

 

Michelle Duggar has been leading attacks on gays and transgender people but believes her own son is entitled to "mistakes". Evidently Michelle Duggar believes that sin is only for gays and transgender people. Real conservative Christians know Michelle Duggar doesn't deserve the time of day. She is a fraud and a kook. She is high profile because she isn't ashamed to show off for the media, not because she speaks for good people. She doesn't.

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Without Carly Simoning this post, it would be helpful if when this happens, people would quote the post directly and respond to it as it's written instead of making these types of general assertions. I saw nothing but acknowledgement on this thread that the rapist was the one resposible for the rape and it was not the victim's fault in any way. In fact, that is one of the few things agreed upon by everyone that I could see.

 

Everyone has said they're not talking about THIS case.

But we all know women shouldn't get drunk near people they don't know.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But it's very important for women to not make themselves vulnerable.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But women need be very careful if you go to certain types of parties.  

etc.

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Everyone has said they're not talking about THIS case.

But we all know women shouldn't get drunk near people they don't know.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But it's very important for women to not make themselves vulnerable.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But women need be very careful if you go to certain types of parties.

etc.

Yes. And the idiot comment, too.

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Everyone has said they're not talking about THIS case.

But we all know women shouldn't get drunk near people they don't know.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But it's very important for women to not make themselves vulnerable.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But women need be very careful if you go to certain types of parties.  

etc.

 

Maybe because the title of the thread is generalizing based on THIS case, but incorrectly....

 

So yes, if they are both drunk, and esp. both more or less equally drunk, it is an important discussion.  If the only reason you can't legally consent to sex in a particular case is because you are x amount drunk and both the man and the woman are x amount drunk, I don't know how you would know who to charge with rape.

 

In THIS case, that is not the case, so it is not what people are talking about when they say, "well, they were both drunk."

 

I would doubt that many people think someone who is literally unconscious when raped by another person is the same as two people who are drunk having sex, then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent.

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Everyone has said they're not talking about THIS case.

But we all know women shouldn't get drunk near people they don't know.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But it's very important for women to not make themselves vulnerable.

We're not talking about THIS case.

But women need be very careful if you go to certain types of parties.

etc.

I am pretty sure I didn't say I wasn't talking about this case. I did say I wouldn't immediately tell a rape victim what she might have done differently.

 

Not getting drunk near people they don't know?

Don't be vulnerable? I assume with strangers...

Be careful if you go to certain types of parties

 

Are these unreasonable precautions in the world we live in?

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I also wanted to add that it's really helpful not to assume people's backgrounds based on what they post in a thread like this. The person you are lecturing about how they should speak to or about rape/assault victims or cases or circumstances could be a victim themselves or have things in their past you know nothing about. This is a very, very, VERY public forum* and not everyone talks openly about their private lives. So you (general) may well be lecturing a victim to tell them how victims feel or what they do or what they perceive or what they hear or what is best for them. Which would be...condescending at best. Just a thought.

 

*even before I joined or read here I remember finding out about this forum before I even researched homeschooling, because I googled something way unrelated to homeschooling and got search results to this place.

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Maybe because the title of the thread is generalizing based on THIS case, but incorrectly....

 

So yes, if they are both drunk, and esp. both more or less equally drunk, it is an important discussion.  If the only reason you can't legally consent to sex in a particular case is because you are x amount drunk and both the man and the woman are x amount drunk, I don't know how you would know who to charge with rape.

 

In THIS case, that is not the case, so it is not what people are talking about when they say, "well, they were both drunk."

 

I would doubt that many people think someone who is literally unconscious when raped by another person is the same as two people who are drunk having sex, then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent.

 

Two guys riding bikes  just happened to catch Brock Turner in the act of assaulting a woman.   If they hadn't caught him, he could have very easily  claimed it was a case of "two people who are drunk having sex, then one then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent." How could she possibly prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy, with no criminal record and great athletic and academic record, was  a rapist?  It would be like most rape cases: never brought to prosecution.

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Two guys riding bikes just happened to catch Brock Turner in the act of assaulting a woman. If they hadn't caught him, he could have very easily claimed it was a case of "two people who are drunk having sex, then one then one claiming it was rape because they were too drunk to legally consent." How could she possibly prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this guy, with no criminal record and great athletic and academic record, was a rapist? It would be like most rape cases: never brought to prosecution.

So what is your point here? It sounds like my point which is that rape is a crime very difficult to prove. And a situation that would be BESt to avoid if at all possible.

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So what is your point here? It sounds like my point which is that rape is a crime very difficult to prove. And a situation that would be BESt to avoid if at all possible.

 

Wow, OK.  

 

Well, I'll agree with you, it's better to not get raped.   Or beaten, robbed or murdered either.  

 

My point. I was replying to someone who said, this case is very different than cases where the guy says "it's not rape, we were just both drunk".    It's not really different at all. That's exactly what Brock Turner says happened. And he would likely be believed, if he hadn't been stopped, then tackled by a random passer-by.   Reading this thread one might believe there is some huge rush of women running to make fake claims of rape.   Looking at the statistics, plus reading the letter writer's rather horrifying description of the rape kit procedure, contradicts that idea.

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Okay, I can understand that. (And just for the record, I am not anti-drinking. I don't think drunkenness is wise.)

 

 

I think it would be inappropriate to focus on it in front of the victim or berate her for it. It shouldn't affect the sentencing of the rapist. It doesn't lessen the rapist's responsibility.

 

I don't agree that a discussion of locked vs. unlocked windows should be totally off the table, though. Locked windows do, in fact, help keep us safe.

What is gained by keeping such talk on the table? What grace and love does it show the survivor?

 

In your view, I must assume I would be responsible to some degree for my rapes (yes plural, same perp) because I walked in to go to the bathroom despite knowing he was a creep and also because I was too afraid to speak up and stop it from happening again.

 

Sorry Mercy, that's just.not.ok. It is neither loving, kind or merciful.

 

If the perp breaks a window should we shame the victim for not living in a concrete panic room? No? Why not? How is that any different really than considering if the window was locked or not?

 

I have lived the victim shaming full stop even though I fall into a category of victim that is generally least blamed (children). Anyone who doesn't repudiate this cultural norm (what did she do?) is perpetuating a deeply hurtful cultural environment that almost continuously makes life harder for survivors.

 

ETA- I had a dicey experience when I was backpacking with a female friend when we were both older teens. I can't tell you the number of times I heard "why would you ever hike alone (obviously without a man, we two women were "alone", I guess). Anyways. I hike alone for the same reason I sleep with my window open on hot nights. Because it makes me happy and more comfortable. Because I want to. Because I refuse to live my life in fear despite knowing all too well the conceivable risks. Because I like fresh air.

Edited by LucyStoner
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Wow, OK.

 

Well, I'll agree with you, it's better to not get raped. Or beaten, robbed or murdered either.

 

My point. I was replying to someone who said, this case is very different than cases where the guy says "it's not rape, we were just both drunk". It's not really different at all. That's exactly what Brock Turner says happened. And he would likely be believed, if he hadn't been stopped, then tackled by a random passer-by. Reading this thread one might believe there is some huge rush of women running to make fake claims of rape. Looking at the statistics, plus reading the letter writer's rather horrifying description of the rape kit procedure, contradicts that idea.

It does not matter if anyone ever falsely accused someone of anything.

 

What matters in legal justice is whether there is evidence they can prove someone committed a crime, any crime, because no, we do not and should not be convicting people of crimes just because someone says they were wronged.

 

That IS the difference in this case. She was able to prove her case. I'm glad she was able to prove her case. I'm thrilled there were two good men to come to her aid and stop her rapist.

 

But no, if you are actually advocating that a person should be able to say someone committed a crime, especially such a serious crime, and get a conviction based on their word alone, then I cannot agree with that under any circumstances.

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I also wanted to add that it's really helpful not to assume people's backgrounds based on what they post in a thread like this. The person you are lecturing about how they should speak to or about rape/assault victims or cases or circumstances could be a victim themselves or have things in their past you know nothing about. This is a very, very, VERY public forum* and not everyone talks openly about their private lives. So you (general) may well be lecturing a victim to tell them how victims feel or what they do or what they perceive or what they hear or what is best for them. Which would be...condescending at best. Just a thought.

 

*even before I joined or read here I remember finding out about this forum before I even researched homeschooling, because I googled something way unrelated to homeschooling and got search results to this place.

Wow. Really.

 

I would think that people might be more worried about the actual victims in this very thread who have told you in their own words that it is offensive and incorrect to harp on about the imperfect actions of victims...

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Why are we not talking about our sons?

Why are we so focused on teaching young women to be safe while fully ignoring the social and cultural systems that we are raising our boys in.

 

It starts when we send little girls home to change so they don't distract the boys.

 

It continues with rape being a common plot point for character building in books, TV, and movies.

It starts when we tell girls that the boy hit her because he likes her.

 

It continues when we repeatedly frame the worth of women as Daughters, Mothers, and Wives rather than valuing them as a full human independent of their family role.

This was recently seen with the death of Michelle McNamara, she was a highly talented author, but every headline framed her as the wife of Patton Oswald.

 

It continues when we call the rape of underage children innapropriate relationships. Or prosecute underage victims as prostitues rather than rape victims.

 

Or that we use images of women as objects, often disembodied, to sell products or services.

 

PETA is notoriously bad about this.

This article has good discussion about the need to reframe the narrative

 

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/09/03/2564011/opinion-pieces-rape-apologists/

Edited by jeninok
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It does not matter if anyone ever falsely accused someone of anything.

 

What matters in legal justice is whether there is evidence they can prove someone committed a crime, any crime, because no, we do not and should not be convicting people of crimes just because someone says they were wronged.

 

That IS the difference in this case. She was able to prove her case. I'm glad she was able to prove her case. I'm thrilled there were two good men to come to her aid and stop her rapist.

 

But no, if you are actually advocating that a person should be able to say someone committed a crime, especially such a serious crime, and get a conviction based on their word alone, then I cannot agree with that under any circumstances.

The problem is that the police sometimes don't bother collecting evidence, or testing the evidence that has been collected. If the victim doesn't act the "right" way or have the "right" kind of story, her allegations don't get taken seriously by the people who swore to protect and serve her, so a proper investigation never happens. I think what poppy was saying was that if it weren't for the two eyewitnesses, the police might have brushed her off, never bothered to find out if there was real evidence. This story is long, but it is well worth reading: https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story

 

The backlog of untested rape kits (hundreds of thousands of them!) is such a serious issue that it has finally gotten national attention. http://www.endthebacklog.org

 

Lack of existing evidence is no doubt a problem in some cases. But lack of collecting and processing available evidence is a huge problem.

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It does not matter if anyone ever falsely accused someone of anything.

 

What matters in legal justice is whether there is evidence they can prove someone committed a crime, any crime, because no, we do not and should not be convicting people of crimes just because someone says they were wronged.

 

That IS the difference in this case. She was able to prove her case. I'm glad she was able to prove her case. I'm thrilled there were two good men to come to her aid and stop her rapist.

 

But no, if you are actually advocating that a person should be able to say someone committed a crime, especially such a serious crime, and get a conviction based on their word alone, then I cannot agree with that under any circumstances.

No. I'm merely saying that handwringing about the possibility of false rape reports is misplaced. It does matter . If that conversation about rape is focused on the victims behavior, if the presence of alcohol makes the situation automatically ambiguous, if we talk as much about false reports (which are very rare) more than rapes left unreported or not prosecuted (very common).... all that adds up to normalizing rape as a standard part of social life. Instead of a crime which should be talked about with disgust for the perpetrators. It's funny , in another thread, someone posted about smoking and there is a united consensus on that thread: smoking is unacceptable, it's terrible, we despise it. Smoking is not ok. It's taboo. We're as rape is.... well there are a whole lot of debate points. Imagine if smoking was the same way. "There are always going to be smokers, so I tell my kids to avoid doorways. "

Edited by poppy
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So what do we do then, Murphy?

 

At least we could give the ones we can prove decent sentences for a start!

I have no problems with giving decent sentences to proven convictions. I've said that repeatedly.

 

I also have no problems with teaching our sons that there's no excuse for them to rape someone and that they should help prevent it if possible. I've also taught my sons that anyways.

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The problem is that the police sometimes don't bother collecting evidence, or testing the evidence that has been collected. If the victim doesn't act the "right" way or have the "right" kind of story, her allegations don't get taken seriously by the people who swore to protect and serve her, so a proper investigation never happens. I think what poppy was saying was that if it weren't for the two eyewitnesses, the police might have brushed her off, never bothered to find out if there was real evidence. This story is long, but it is well worth reading: https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story

 

The backlog of untested rape kits (hundreds of thousands of them!) is such a serious issue that it has finally gotten national attention. http://www.endthebacklog.org

 

Lack of existing evidence is no doubt a problem in some cases. But lack of collecting and processing available evidence is a huge problem.

The backlog of lab tests is deplorable for everything, not just rape. I have a relative who waited nearly 8 months to get the results of blood work taken from a drunk driver to confirm their blood alcohol levels.

 

People are also waiting really long times for autopsies of victims bc there's just not enough state medical coroners or large enough facilities.

 

And I completely agree that people (cops or otherwise) who don't do their job thoroughly should be forced to do it properly or fired.

 

I completely agree our justice system is flawed every direction we look. I'm all for fixing that.

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Wow, OK.

 

Well, I'll agree with you, it's better to not get raped. Or beaten, robbed or murdered either.

 

My point. I was replying to someone who said, this case is very different than cases where the guy says "it's not rape, we were just both drunk". It's not really different at all. That's exactly what Brock Turner says happened. And he would likely be believed, if he hadn't been stopped, then tackled by a random passer-by. Reading this thread one might believe there is some huge rush of women running to make fake claims of rape. Looking at the statistics, plus reading the letter writer's rather horrifying description of the rape kit procedure, contradicts that idea.

Exactly exactly exactly.

Brock Turner was caught inside an unconscious woman, and was not so drunk himself that he couldn't realize he should run.

But still there is an army of people saying all the exact same things about this case that people in this thread say 'not about this case obviously...'

Sadie linked to all of the letters of support which the judge took into account when sentencing.

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I don't think it's been mentioned yet but the two reluctant heroes of the story - the students who saw it & stopped it & who were able to provide information to lead to a conviction - have been identified as PhD students from Sweden.

 

 

Yeah, I just heard about that tonight on an updated column. They're heroes and did the right thing even when the wrong thing might have been easier. Castigating the rapist is one part of the equation, but adequately celebrating the good Samaritans and showing that part of the story to our kids is the other part of this I hope families are discussing.
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Wow. Really.

 

I would think that people might be more worried about the actual victims in this very thread who have told you in their own words that it is offensive and incorrect to harp on about the imperfect actions of victims...

Yes, okay, wow. Just because someone isn't internet public about it doesn't mean they aren't an "actual victim". Besides the fact that "actual victims" can be advocates for personal safety without making it about blame. I've taken self defense classes from such a person. I never assumed she taught what she did because she thought her "imperfect actions" were to blame for her assault.

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When I was in college I wasn't able to get into a day section of a course that I needed and I was very happy that there was room in the night section. Told a friend this and she said that taking a night class was asking to be raped. It made me feel really bad.

 

Something that I don't understand: I find it really incomprehensible that a young man would want to have sex with an unconscious body. He did not even know her name or know her face enough to recognize her later. He should have had sex with a plastic doll and then he would not have hurt anyone. People keep talking about a sense of entitlement but it can't just be that. When I was that age I wanted sex badly but I wanted it mixed with a feeling of relationship, flirting, staying up all night talking, a feeling of being desired, closeness and love. I have never had any desire to have sex with somebody who is unconscious or somebody who did not want me. I don't steal things from stores but I can relate to how someone might steal something from a store if they wanted it and did not have the money. I would not do it myself on moral grounds and fear of being caught but I understand their actions. I cannot relate at all to wanting to have sex with unconscious people. Where does this come from? I don't think this is just related to growing up in a culture that objectifies women.

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I have a question: Is there a culture anywhere on earth where rape is extremely rare and not remotely tolerated?

Iceland.

 

And in the grand scheme of crime and violence, they almost none. They do not have a prison on the island so in the rare case that they have to incarcerate someone, they contract with Denmark for a prison spot for that person. They are a very sexually open society as well. But whatever cultural coup they have managed, I think it would be difficult here. They are rather isolated so they have been able to maintain their heritage without too much influence and only have about 400,000 people in their borders.

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When I was in college I wasn't able to get into a day section of a course that I needed and I was very happy that there was room in the night section. Told a friend this and she said that taking a night class was asking to be raped. It made me feel really bad.

 

Something that I don't understand: I find it really incomprehensible that a young man would want to have sex with an unconscious body. He did not even know her name or know her face enough to recognize her later. He should have had sex with a plastic doll and then he would not have hurt anyone. People keep talking about a sense of entitlement but it can't just be that. When I was that age I wanted sex badly but I wanted it mixed with a feeling of relationship, flirting, staying up all night talking, a feeling of being desired, closeness and love. I have never had any desire to have sex with somebody who is unconscious or somebody who did not want me. I don't steal things from stores but I can relate to how someone might steal something from a store if they wanted it and did not have the money. I would not do it myself on moral grounds and fear of being caught but I understand their actions. I cannot relate at all to wanting to have sex with unconscious people. Where does this come from? I don't think this is just related to growing up in a culture that objectifies women.

A rapist rapes not for sex but for power and oppression. It is about liking the idea of hurting the other person, about taking from them that which wasn't given, about feeling entitled to taking what he wants by force.

 

You can't relate because you aren't a rapist. It is no different to being unable to relate to a muderer or a kidnapper or child beater. You have chosen not to entertain such thoughts, harbor such feelings, allow such disrespect for another human being to grow. No matter what, you do not see the sex act as something you are entitled to take, something to force on another person.

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Yes, okay, wow. Just because someone isn't internet public about it doesn't mean they aren't an "actual victim". Besides the fact that "actual victims" can be advocates for personal safety without making it about blame. I've taken self defense classes from such a person. I never assumed she taught what she did because she thought her "imperfect actions" were to blame for her assault.

Okay, I miscommunicated my use of the words actual victims. I didn't at all mean to imply that any victims aren't real victims. I would have thought my position on believing victims was clear in this thread, but I'm more than happy to be clear and careful with my language. I simply meant that theorizing about the hurt of hypothetical victims instead of hearing the words of victims right here seems like a distraction.

 

I don't think victims have to be any kind of public at all unless they choose. It takes a lot of courage to share what people in this thread - ktgrok and Scarlett especially - have shared and I thank them.

 

I have said more than once in this thread that teaching safe and respectful behaviours is great. I do/will teach them to all my kids. I have never and will never point out the mistakes of a victim as a teaching tool.

 

Ftr- I do believe that you have no malicious intent to blame victims. I really do. I'm sure you are a nice person who would be a help to them in real life.

I just know that there is actual damage done, both to victims and young people as they grow, by the hyper focus on drinking/promiscuity/immorality as a protection against sexual assault. In my opinion, it creates a false sense of security, a heightened sense of shame, a tendency to separate ourselves from victims and strengthens the hold on our culture that continues to allow these offenders to offend.

 

 

 

 

 

*Edited to change 'girls' to 'young people ' because upon reflection I think that boys are damaged too.

Edited by LMD
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A rapist rapes not for sex but for power and oppression. It is about liking the idea of hurting the other person, about taking from them that which wasn't given, about feeling entitled to taking what he wants by force.

 

You can't relate because you aren't a rapist. It is no different to being unable to relate to a muderer or a kidnapper or child beater. You have chosen not to entertain such thoughts, harbor such feelings, allow such disrespect for another human being to grow. No matter what, you do not see the sex act as something you are entitled to take, something to force on another person.

You are right. Plain old brute cruelty and desire to oppress. But still... Just the image of a successful college athlete bringing an unconscious stranger behind a dumpster and sticking pine needles(?) up her? It's just ... ?

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re daughters and sons:

Why are we not talking about our sons?
Why are we so focused on teaching young women to be safe while fully ignoring the social and cultural systems that we are raising our boys in.

It starts when we send little girls home to change so they don't distract the boys.

It continues with rape being a common plot point for character building in books, TV, and movies.
It starts when we tell girls that the boy hit her because he likes her.

It continues when we repeatedly frame the worth of women as Daughters, Mothers, and Wives rather than valuing them as a full human independent of their family role.
This was recently seen with the death of Michelle McNamara, she was a highly talented author, but every headline framed her as the wife of Patton Oswald.

It continues when we call the rape of underage children innapropriate relationships. Or prosecute underage victims as prostitues rather than rape victims.

Or that we use images of women as objects, often disembodied, to sell products or services.

PETA is notoriously bad about this.
This article has good discussion about the need to reframe the narrative

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/09/03/2564011/opinion-pieces-rape-apologists/

 

This.

 

And: with our sons as well as with our daughters, there is always a real possibility that they do not hear precisely-exactly what we mean to say.

 

When we say to our daughters: there will always be "evil people" out there who want to rape you, so take every precaution, do not drink, do not dress immodestly, do not leave any drink unattended, do not hike or jog or walk alone, do not take night classes, do not go out late to pick up milk, always lock every window, our intent is to reduce the odds that they are attacked.  When we highlight the precautions that raped women might have taken that might have caused the rapist to choose a different victim, our intent as described by several pp above is to provide a "cautionary tale."  All reasonable.

 

But our daughters may well hear:  if you are raped, well, did you take each and every precaution?  And they may well remember the hundreds of object lessons ingrained into them over the course of their lifetimes where rape victims' behavior is scrutinized with a magnifying glass that simply does not come out, for say burglaries.

 

And the special-scrutiny, it's-so-blurry, shared-blame message our daughters hear could well inhibit them from doing the right thing if -- when -- God forbid, they're in a situation when a friend or they themselves have been harmed. 

 

 

And our sons?

 

When our sons hear, or overhear, the constant ubiquitous drumbeat of how women should not drink, should not dress immodestly, should not leave any drink unattended, should not hike or jog or walk alone, should not take night classes, should not go out late to pick up milk, should always lock every window?  Our intent is to reduce the odds that women are attacked.

 

But our sons may well hear: women who don't do each and every one of these things each and every time... are demonstrating poor judgment, risky behavior, are disrespecting themselves, are something a little less-than.

 

I don't think the chronic ubiquitous social message that boys overhear about what girls are supposed to do to Guard the Gates is sufficient to turn most ordinary sons into rapists.  I'm not suggesting that.  It takes a special something, that I certainly can't begin to fathom, to want to penetrate an unconscious person, or to want to cause immense pain and witness immense suffering.

 

I do believe the messages young men absorb breeds both callousness (walking past the half-naked body dumped outside the frat door) and a sense of male entitlement that is absolutely part of the problem... why so few incidents-in-the-making are stopped by other men, why so few men report against each other, why so many institutions underreport, cover incidents up, and discourage victims from coming forth.

 

 

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I'd just like to point out that our sons can be victimized too.

I'm trying to find an article I read a year or so ago (and not having much luck), about how vulnerable some boys/young men are because the "personal safety" messages are so heavily aimed at women, making men less likely to take those precautions as well. The article mentioned a young man who had his drink drugged by another man while he was on vacation in Europe. He wasn't raped, but the man who drugged him did manage to rob him of his money, ID, etc. Not as heinous a crime as being raped, but a still a violation.

 

Perhaps we should present personal safety measures to BOTH sexes as "These are some bad things that someone might try to do to you, and here are some preventative measures you can take the lessen the odds of being victimized, and here's what you can do to help others that you see about to be victimized, but nothing is 100% successful, unfortunately."

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And people saying you can't stop rapists from raping, well, we can try. The article I linked above showed that a LOT of men, and about 1/3 of boys think that a girl who is flirting is partially or fully responsible for getting raped. Other surveys have shown that many many boys do not understand that consent is needed. We need to teach young men this, and maybe that WILL help to stop a lot of rapes. 

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I'd just like to point out that our sons can be victimized too.

 

You are absolutely right.  They can.  And the culture-surround for victimized males is quite different than that for females.  Less pervasive, less loud, less scrutiny on victim behavior, but in some dimensions more shaming.

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And if anyone ever does tell you about an incident, even if they aren't sure if it was rape/assault/whatever, the very best thing to say is "I'm sorry. I know you didn't want that to happen."  Everyone else said "oh wow, are you sure?" or "I can't imagine he would have done that" or "Well, you were really drunk....."

 

"I'm sorry,I know you didn't want that to happen." That's what to say. 

 

(or my now husband, then ex boyfriend, offered to come hunt the second guy down with a bat if I wanted. That was sort of helpful too. Not that he was going to do it, or I would have wanted him to, but the offer was nice.)

 

Oh, and maybe suggest the word rape to them, but don't force it. They may be doing mental contortions to avoid applying that word to themselves. 

Edited by ktgrok
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In your view, I must assume I would be responsible to some degree for my rapes (yes plural, same perp) because I walked in to go to the bathroom despite knowing he was a creep and also because I was too afraid to speak up and stop it from happening again.

 

Sorry Mercy, that's just.not.ok. It is neither loving, kind or merciful.

 

...

 

I have lived the victim shaming full stop even though I fall into a category of victim that is generally least blamed (children). Anyone who doesn't repudiate this cultural norm (what did she do?) is perpetuating a deeply hurtful cultural environment that almost continuously makes life harder for survivors.

 

I'd like to blame my word choice solely on sloppy writing (and it was partly that), but to be honest, I also hadn't carefully thought through some of these issues.

 

I'll be more careful of my language, but I'd like to also ask (with no snark) that you consider not using God's name when you castigate me. Feel free to swear at me all you want using any other words.  :)

 

The victim was not responsible for her assault.

 

I'm sorry if I offended or hurt you, Katie. I haven't posted on this thread in several days, but I have been thinking about it quite a lot.

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No. Just no. A man's responsibility not to assault me is greater than my responsibility not to great drunk. Always.

 

This is completely true. I haven't finished reading the thread but read the part about victim blaming. I'm just wondering what you would tell your daughters in response to hearing about something like this happening. Saying that there are things a girl can do to keep herself as safe as she can in no way lessens the perpetrator's guilt. Think about murder. I know that if I want to stay safe, I will not walk alone down an unlit street late at night when no-one is around. I don't think that saying this makes it any more right for someone to murder me, it's just common sense. I want to teach my daughters common sense, so that they can protect themselves. Is this "victim blaming" to do so?

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Absolutely, I do teach my sons the same safety measures. However, society is much more likely to support them if they are victimised than my daughter.

 

Recently our country had a spate of random assaults, where men would randomly punch a stranger in the head, the victims would fall on the curb/sidewalk and many sustained serious brain injuries and died.

 

We changed the laws (mandatory minimum 10 year sentence in my state) and the cultural language (king hit to coward punch) in light speed. No one asked why these male victims were out at night, in trouble spots (bars, clubs), drinking. No one insinuated that maybe it was complicated, maybe they provoked their attackers. No one asked if the victims had a history of drinking or fighting or risky behaviours. The perpetrators were bad guys - the end.

 

http://junkee.com/ten-years-for-one-punch-parole-for-rape-how-the-judicial-system-continues-to-fail-women/54021

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re daughters and sons:

 

This.

 

And: with our sons as well as with our daughters, there is always a real possibility that they do not hear precisely-exactly what we mean to say.

 

When we say to our daughters: there will always be "evil people" out there who want to rape you, so take every precaution, do not drink, do not dress immodestly, do not leave any drink unattended, do not hike or jog or walk alone, do not take night classes, do not go out late to pick up milk, always lock every window, our intent is to reduce the odds that they are attacked. When we highlight the precautions that raped women might have taken that might have caused the rapist to choose a different victim, our intent as described by several pp above is to provide a "cautionary tale." All reasonable.

 

But our daughters may well hear: if you are raped, well, did you take each and every precaution? And they may well remember the hundreds of object lessons ingrained into them over the course of their lifetimes where rape victims' behavior is scrutinized with a magnifying glass that simply does not come out, for say burglaries.

 

And the special-scrutiny, it's-so-blurry, shared-blame message our daughters hear could well inhibit them from doing the right thing if -- when -- God forbid, they're in a situation when a friend or they themselves have been harmed.

 

 

And our sons?

 

When our sons hear, or overhear, the constant ubiquitous drumbeat of how women should not drink, should not dress immodestly, should not leave any drink unattended, should not hike or jog or walk alone, should not take night classes, should not go out late to pick up milk, should always lock every window? Our intent is to reduce the odds that women are attacked.

 

But our sons may well hear: women who don't do each and every one of these things each and every time... are demonstrating poor judgment, risky behavior, are disrespecting themselves, are something a little less-than.

 

I don't think the chronic ubiquitous social message that boys overhear about what girls are supposed to do to Guard the Gates is sufficient to turn most ordinary sons into rapists. I'm not suggesting that. It takes a special something, that I certainly can't begin to fathom, to want to penetrate an unconscious person, or to want to cause immense pain and witness immense suffering.

 

I do believe the messages young men absorb breeds both callousness (walking past the half-naked body dumped outside the frat door) and a sense of male entitlement that is absolutely part of the problem... why so few incidents-in-the-making are stopped by other men, why so few men report against each other, why so many institutions underreport, cover incidents up, and discourage victims from coming forth.

Humans tend to blame themselves when things go wrong. That is when they need people around them to say no, YOU did nothing wrong, the rapist is the one who did you wrong.

 

Tending to blame ourselves is not a a reason to stop taking steps to protect ourselves.

 

And yes as Kinsa pointed out our sons can be victims too. I say all the things to him I would say to a girl. Including what is proper conduct between the sexes or just with humans in general.

 

I don't know who these people are like the father of Brock who clearly helped shape a rapist mentality...no one in my world has any of that thinking. They would be disgusted by it.

 

As someone else mentioned......just stay away from that group of people.....that will help keep our sons from ever developing any of those disgusting ideas.

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I know this is weird, but I actually believe that rape is still socially acceptable in American culture, just maybe not as much as some other cultures.

 

A black woman raped by a black man - probably didn't happen

A black woman raped by a white, powerful man - never, never happened

A white woman raped by a "promising" white student athlete - there were extenuating circumstances

 

We believe in and abhor "stranger" rapes. We often look the other way for coaches, clergy, and congressmen who assault women. Campus assaults are nearly always written off as drinking students.

 

So long as we aren't the woman raped, we are willing to "buckle up" and accept collateral damage.

 

I don't think this is a rape specific problem though. We see evidence of that in ALL level of law enforcement and court sentencing.

 

Robert Downey Jr. has heroine on him and it's "aw, that poor addict, and he's such a talented and nice guy."

 

Black men serve more prison time for lesser offenses.

 

"Student murdered classmate. He was a great kid, from a "good" family, he had good grades and was well liked in the football team." So the eff what? He MURDERED someone.

 

I completely agree that's all BS and perversion of justice.

 

But it's not about rape being okay. Just like it isn't about murderer being okay. Most in general society think both are very wrong. There's something more pervasive than that going on in our perverted justice system keeping it from actually doling the justice the general populace would think right. And it's frustrating because IMO, I see little evidence the general populace can make meaningful actually effective change.

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Absolutely, I do teach my sons the same safety measures. However, society is much more likely to support them if they are victimised than my daughter.

 

Recently our country had a spate of random assaults, where men would randomly punch a stranger in the head, the victims would fall on the curb/sidewalk and many sustained serious brain injuries and died.

 

We changed the laws (mandatory minimum 10 year sentence in my state) and the cultural language (king hit to coward punch) in light speed. No one asked why these male victims were out at night, in trouble spots (bars, clubs), drinking. No one insinuated that maybe it was complicated, maybe they provoked their attackers. No one asked if the victims had a history of drinking or fighting or risky behaviours. The perpetrators were bad guys - the end.

 

http://junkee.com/ten-years-for-one-punch-parole-for-rape-how-the-judicial-system-continues-to-fail-women/54021

I also teach my sons the same things, bc in general they are just good policies regardless of criminal threat.

 

I completely disagree that men are more supported in sexual assault or abuse cases though. It's often considered humiliating and unmanly to complain about it or to not be able to defend themselves.

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