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Because "well, they were both drunk, so..." comes up so often in discussions about rape...


Xuzi
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Yes, and even if 90% of cars are polite and accepting: that one that gets you is all that matters. 

 

 

 

 

 

I have a hard time with the statement that our culture or society is raising young men like this. When I worked fast food I had quite the educational experience about men but had never ever had an issue before. When I was in college I learned quickly to avoid certain groups. Other groups were great. Considerate, didn't think I owed them anything.  My daughter and I are not treated like I hear women are treated regularly. We go through life being ourselves and doing our thing. I do worry about if she ends up on a large college campus and gets a job where she will encounter these other people.  

 

The truth is that certain sub-cultures breed this stuff not everyone. So when we say what if the good guys influenced the bad guys well, they usually aren't found together and would not like each other so I'm not sure how that would work overall. Maybe in some certain instances but not generally. Obviously, this jerk's Dad's response gives us a good indication of how he was raised, etc. Which is why the justice system should be the one to step in but has failed time and again. 

 

 

Edited to add: I realize there are sneaky (bleeps) everywhere but the truth is in some places they have to be sneakier because what they are doing isn't considered acceptable. 

 

 

What were the groups, specifically?

 

You have to tell us so we all know to avoid them groups of other people.

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I'm having a difficult time buying the culture blame too.

 

This is the SAME supposedly puritanical culture where we have the same culture of binge drinking and hooking up is not unusual. So even if I were to buy that, it seems faulty logic to blame one culture and not the other.

 

I think both get blamed, just by different groups.

 

There's always plenty of finger pointing to go around :(

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Well, when I went to my first college party and a guy literally held a bottle up to my mouth trying to get me to drink I never associated with that person again or the people he hung out with. I learned quickly which people respected me and which didn't. But my study group that I went hiking with and studied with all were respectful young men and mostly didn't associate that much that I know of with the other group. 

 

I am not implying you can only associate with certain groups and be free of it. What I'm trying to say is to tell someone respectful of women to go influence another group across campus is not likely to happen even if he tried his best. Or to tell people that parents ought to raise their sons better. Well, the parents that agree are already trying. Really, what needs to happen is that there needs to be actual consequences. It is really difficult to control other people. 

 

Edited again because I have a huge problem with homonyms. 

Edited by frogger
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I'm having a difficult time buying the culture blame too.

 

This is the SAME supposedly puritanical culture where we have the also have the culture of binge drinking and hooking up as not unusual. So even if I were to buy that, it seems faulty logic to blame one culture and not the other.

Do you think he was born to be a rapist then?

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Do you think he was born to be a rapist then?

 

I have read some theories as to why rape would develop as a biological/evolutionary strategy. 

 

I actually do think that rape is probably a natural thing for some humans to do. I don't think that culture has to create it.

 

I do think that society/culture can and should work against it, because humans have the ability to go beyond pure biological impulse.

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Yes, the OP did bring this up in the context of alcohol, and I assume that's because the rapist tried to make his crime about that, and he apparently has some sleazy support for it. He's trying to use alcohol as a scapegoat, and nobody here is letting him.

 

Some of us are able to separate his issue from the other issue of advising our own kids about sense and safety, yes, even in the same thread.

 

If the OP didn't want people talking about alcohol, she should have titled it differently, e.g., do you think 6 months in jail is enough punishment for a non-repentant jerk who was caught raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster? And everyone would have said, no, it's terrible! And that would have been that. But the OP wanted to talk about the alcohol side of things.

I think you missed the OP's point entirely. And , more sadly , the perspective of that letter writer.

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Do you think he was born to be a rapist then?

He could have been. Maybe he has mommy issues. Maybe he has always been a pathological sicko.

 

But it makes no sense to say a culture of binge drinking and hook it up is not only coexisting within a pervasive puritanical culture and at the same time claim one is the reason these things happen and ignore the contributions of the other to the frequency of it happening.

 

She was not raped because anyone was drinking alcohol.

She also was not raped bc of some puritanical views of women, which frankly I'm not seeing much of in the general public or many college campuses these days.

 

She was raped because this jerk decided he wanted to rape her and then proceeded to try to do so regardless of her desires.

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:cursing: :smash: :smash: :smash: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :cursing:

 

The tiki torches are lit, we've gathered around the fire, I slowly make my way to the parchment and sharpie, and staring intently into the camera I whisper, "I'm voting this one off the island because if he doesn't go, LMD and I are going to give him a lobotomy tomorrow night."

Haha! I was done with this thread (after my long response to JodiSue was eaten) but you pull me back in...

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And for the record, I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. The thread just didn't stay in one place and meandered around about how it might be better if men more quickly judged others it might help along with some other things.

 

Edited to add: actually I let the meandering get to me. 

 

 

 

The excuses people come up with to defend the actual perpetrator are awful and the crime is often downplayed by judges but it seems like a lot of crimes are down played by judges depending on the status of the defendant which is grossly unjust. There are two distinct problems I see. Those people  who downplay rape as though it is a lesser crime and the complete lack of blind justice where socioeconomic status and at times race factors into the equation. 

 

 

 

Edited by frogger
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I will admit I have never been involved in a religion that treats women differently as regards sin.  So I can't speak to those religions.  I can speak to mine where men and women are held to the same standard.  Our young people are being taught to be morally upright and to respect each other and honor God's laws.  And when they miss the mark as all humans do, their behavior is not blamed on anyone else.  

 

What has happened is that it is now taboo to discuss safety measures to protect ourselves from vile predators because hey women should be allowed to be unconscious in the street and not be raped. And while I agree with that, it is pure folly to believe we live in such a world.   And the rapists and the predators of the world will take advantage of the victims of the world who have been taught they should be able to do as they please and be safe.  

 

It is not taboo.  Sometimes on this board, there is a lot of backlash because the discussion around particular rape cases always dissolves into the "if she hadn't drank that, wore that, went there, it wouldn't have happened."  Every blinking discussion. It's usually the same group of posters and they are usually conservative.  We all know what the victim shouldn't have done.  We get it. We've been told it our entire lives.  Talk to enough rape survivors and you'll hear a common thought, "What could I have done differently?"  Often, but not always, the answer is "nothing."  Women are conditioned by our culture and our faiths to believe that they are at fault for so many things happening. Men don't seem to walk that path nearly as often.

 

The problem is that the repeated emphasis on safety measures detracts from the myriad of problems at the root of rape.  It's easy to talk about safety issues; that makes us feel like we are doing something.  It's like repeatedly improving safety belts in cars, but never improving the safety of the cars themselves, the skills and attitudes of the drivers, or changing the laws to be more punitive in dealing with crappy drivers.

 

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It is not taboo.  Sometimes on this board, there is a lot of backlash because the discussion around particular rape cases always dissolves into the "if she hadn't drank that, wore that, went there, it wouldn't have happened."  Every blinking discussion. It's usually the same group of posters and they are usually conservative.  We all know what the victim shouldn't have done.  We get it. We've been told it our entire lives.  Talk to enough rape survivors and you'll hear a common thought, "What could I have done differently?"  Often, but not always, the answer is "nothing."  Women are conditioned by our culture and our faiths to believe that they are at fault for so many things happening. Men don't seem to walk that path nearly as often.

 

The problem is that the repeated emphasis on safety measures detracts from the myriad of problems at the root of rape.  It's easy to talk about safety issues; that makes us feel like we are doing something.  It's like repeatedly improving safety belts in cars, but never improving the safety of the cars themselves, the skills and attitudes of the drivers, or changing the laws to be more punitive in dealing with crappy drivers.

 

 

Here is the thing though.  I can buckle up.  I can decide to not get in the car.   But I can't make a safer car.  And I can't fix the world of (mostly) men who choose to victimize women.  Including the judge who gave too short of a sentence.  

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There's a really fantastic post being shared on FB from a guy calling out this kind of muddled thinking.  It was very well written, but I can't figure out how to link to it the post itself without linking to his page?  Anyone know how to do that, or is it kosher to copy/paste it with attribution?

 

I've been thinking a lot about guy attitudes and guy friendship codes ever since I read that case about the football player who called in his buddies to assault his girlfriend. You know, the one where they dumped her partially clothed (or naked, can't remember) body in the hallway and other guys in the dorm walked on past her.  The guy code is strong and it is part of the issue.

 

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I am not familiar with the concept that my respect for another person depends on whether or not they respect themselves.  That is not how I raise my kids.  It's not how my brothers were raised either.

 

Thinking of my family, I can only imagine how my dad would feel about this swimmer guy and his father.  That family is not the norm.  I would like to think it is way outside the norm.

 

I also wonder what his mom is thinking - but no, I would not want her to be interrogated about it.

 

 

I think you might be surprised at how many father-son duos like this one are out there.

 

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Here is the thing though. I can buckle up. I can decide to not get in the car. But I can't make a safer car. And I can't fix the world of (mostly) men who choose to victimize women. Including the judge who gave too short of a sentence.

No kidding. Everyone knows the root cause of rape is the there are people who rape others. I'm sure rapists can give lots of blame deflecting excuses to help convince people to reduce their sentence, but the bottom line is they do it bc it's what they want to do and bc they thought they had an opportunity to get away with it.

 

We can't change there are people who rape others in exisitance.

 

So of course we discuss every single time about what we can encourage to reduce chances of becoming victims.

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Here is the thing though.  I can buckle up.  I can decide to not get in the car.   But I can't make a safer car.  And I can't fix the world of (mostly) men who choose to victimize women.  Including the judge who gave too short of a sentence.  

 

She wasn't in an accident.  She was assaulted by a person.

 

This story isn't a story because the sentence was short, it's a story because of the victim's brave, heartbreaking letter. 

 

And for that, good for her.

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Here is the thing though. I can buckle up. I can decide to not get in the car. But I can't make a safer car. And I can't fix the world of (mostly) men who choose to victimize women. Including the judge who gave too short of a sentence.

Why can't you make a safer car?

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He could have been. Maybe he has mommy issues. Maybe he has always been a pathological sicko.

 

But it makes no sense to say a culture of binge drinking and hook it up is not only coexisting within a pervasive puritanical culture and at the same time claim one is the reason these things happen and ignore the contributions of the other to the frequency of it happening.

 

She was not raped because anyone was drinking alcohol.

She also was not raped bc of some puritanical views of women, which frankly I'm not seeing much of in the general public or many college campuses these days.

 

She was raped because this jerk decided he wanted to rape her and then proceeded to try to do so regardless of her desires.

 

Hey M!

 

With regards to the part in bold, I think that the value of a woman (in general, over time and cultures) has nearly always been in relation to a man - as a daughter (property to be exchanged for more property), a wife, a mother of male children, or piece of property to be used. Women who are without a man (spinster or widow) have often been treated poorly and without respect.  

 

A man has his own intrinsic value in society outside of his relationship with a woman. A widower or a single man (as long as he isn't a hell-raising wastrel) isn't going to be looked down on. I know that economics are all convoluted in this equation, but let's leave them alone for now.

 

My thought is that even if women have the right to vote and the right to hold property, we still have so many attitudes that are throwbacks to issues of faith or times gone by.  Maybe the term "puritanical culture" is really not correct.  There is an undercurrent that still demands that a woman's primary goal is to be pleasing to a man. There is a lot we do that continues to encourage this attitude.  However, I think many women struggle with the concept that men are the meat in their diet, while they are the cake in the men's diet. Dessert is sweet and pleasurable, but not essential.  As human beings (male or female), when things don't feel fair, we kind of like to rebel. I don't know if this is at the core of the hook-up culture. It's not something I really get.  To me, the binge drinking and hook-up culture have an air of desperation about them, not freedom and joy.

 

Just writing through my thoughts. I always enjoy your practical responses.

 

 

 

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No kidding. Everyone knows the root cause of rape is the there are people who rape others. I'm sure rapists can give lots of blame deflecting excuses to help convince people to reduce their sentence, but the bottom line is they do it bc it's what they want to do and bc they thought they had an opportunity to get away with it.

 

We can't change there are people who rape others in exisitance.

 

So of course we discuss every single time about what we can encourage to reduce chances of becoming victims.

 

This is what it comes down to, really.   If rapes just happen, then it a woman's responsibility to avoid them.

Except rapes don't just happen.  It's not "anyone who can does".  A whole lot of countries have a whole lot more rape than in US.  Obviously we are doing something they aren't to prevent that.   There are armies that routinely use rape as a weapon of war; the US is most definitely  not one of those countries.  No, we can't stop all crime, but it's not something completely out of our control either.

 

It is important that we as a nation make rape socially unacceptable, the way we've made drunk driving and smoking socially unacceptable.  We have changed our national culture for the better in those cases in just the past few decades.  And I don't think conversations about who women who drink are fools further the conversation of making rape socially unacceptable; quite the opposite. I think it's enabling. It's certainly the position espoused by this guy's dad.  Who, as far as we know, is not a rapist.

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She wasn't in an accident.  She was assaulted by a person.

 

This story isn't a story because the sentence was short, it's a story because of the victim's brave, heartbreaking letter. 

 

And for that, good for her.

 

 

The car analogy wasn't mine.  And I admit I am bad at analogies.....but yes I am aware she was assaulted.  Mostly what I've heard on the news was how short his sentence was.  So I don't know how you are saying that isn't part of the story.

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Here is the thing though.  I can buckle up.  I can decide to not get in the car.   But I can't make a safer car.  And I can't fix the world of (mostly) men who choose to victimize women.  Including the judge who gave too short of a sentence.  

 

You can buckle up and  you (and society in general) can boycott companies that make cars with crappy safety records. You can lobby your congressmen to get laws changed. You can advocate for better driver's ed programs. You can put your cell phone away and be a better driver.

 

or

 

You can buckle up and cross your fingers. I am pretty sure this is how women got the right to vote.

 

 

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You can buckle up and  you (and society in general) can boycott companies that make cars with crappy safety records. You can lobby your congressmen to get laws changed. You can advocate for better driver's ed programs. You can put your cell phone away and be a better driver.

 

or

 

You can buckle up and cross your fingers. I am pretty sure this is how women got the right to vote.

 

 

Politics.  No I don't do politics.  

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I don't own a car manufacturer. I don't have a clue about how things are put together.

 

Really, can YOU make a safer car?

Well yes. I could go work for a car manufacturer and design a safer car. You could, too. You would have to learn some things first.

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This is what it comes down to, really. If rapes just happen, then it a woman's responsibility to avoid them.

Except rapes don't just happen. It's not "anyone who can does". A whole lot of countries have a whole lot more rape than in US. Obviously we are doing something they aren't to prevent that. There are armies that routinely use rape as a weapon of war; the US is most definitely not one of those countries. No, we can't stop all crime, but it's not something completely out of our control either.

 

It is important that we as a nation make rape socially unacceptable, the way we've made drunk driving and smoking socially unacceptable. We have changed our national culture for the better in those cases in just the past few decades. And I don't think conversations about who women who drink are fools further the conversation of making rape socially unacceptable; quite the opposite. I think it's enabling. It's certainly the position espoused by this guy's dad. Who, as far as we know, is not a rapist.

I did not say rapes just happen. It's not like rainy days. People are raped because someone decides they want to rape and takes an opportunity to do that.

 

Not a single poster has said rape is or should be socially acceptable. Every poster has said we should have stricter laws and sentences for proven convictions. It's completely possible to believe all of that and discuss how reduce rape opportunity.

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You know what is messed up about our culture?  The way everyone jumps to "blame."  That's crazy.  I mean, yeah, blame the criminal for his crime, but that's where it ends.

 

Hearing about rape is scary.  We hear about it and think "that could be our kid" and think "I'll tell my kid to do xyz and hopefully that will help."  None of that is "blame."  But it always gets recast as "blame" in this kind of discussion.  That's just completely illogical.  And so we have to argue about it for 10 pages when nobody on the thread ever thought the victim was to blame.

 

I'm not going to change my way of thinking (prevention) to accommodate someone else's completely illogical labeling (blame => slut shaming => rape apologist etc.)

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If a drunk driver killed your son, you may be surprised at all the things you can do.

 

This is very presumptive of you. It presumes that all victims must feel and react and want the same thing to feel they are getting justice and that simply is not true.

 

For all you or I know Scarlet could be a person who would instead seek some other way to cope or find healing that doesn't focus on drunks but instead focuses her grief elsewhere.

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I did not say rapes just happen. It's not like rainy days. People are raped because someone decides they want to rape and takes an opportunity to do that.

 

Not a single poster has said rape is or should be socially acceptable. Every poster has said we should have stricter laws and sentences for proven convictions. It's completely possible to believe all of that and discuss how reduce rape opportunity.

 

There has been a conversation about stricter laws and sentences? Every poster?  Really? 

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I did not say rapes just happen. It's not like rainy days. People are raped because someone decides they want to rape and takes an opportunity to do that.

 

Not a single poster has said rape is or should be socially acceptable. Every poster has said we should have stricter laws and sentences for proven convictions. It's completely possible to believe all of that and discuss how reduce rape opportunity.

 

I know this is weird, but I actually believe that rape is still socially acceptable in American culture, just maybe not as much as some other cultures.

 

A black woman raped by a black man - probably didn't happen

A black woman raped by a white, powerful man - never, never happened

A white woman raped by a "promising" white student athlete - there were extenuating circumstances

 

We believe in and abhor "stranger" rapes. We often look the other way for coaches, clergy, and congressmen who assault women. Campus assaults are nearly always written off as drinking students.

 

So long as we aren't the woman raped, we are willing to "buckle up" and accept collateral damage.

 

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Well yes. I could go work for a car manufacturer and design a safer car. You could, too. You would have to learn some things first.

No I don't think I could. so where does that end? There is always a project or a cause that someone thinks is the answer. I have chosen to focus on what is realistically within my control.....my own actions, and raising my children and being the best wife and mother and friend I can be. Part of which includes being as safe as I can be to avoid bad situations and people.

 

I don't know why that is so offensive.

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This is very presumptive of you. It presumes that all victims must feel and react and want the same thing to feel they are getting justice and that simply is not true.

 

For all you or I know Scarlet could be a person who would instead seek some other way to cope or find healing that doesn't focus on drunks but instead focuses her grief elsewhere.

 

I wasn't implying that Scarlet would follow one and only one particular course of action, but she has always struck me as a strong woman and I visualize her as someone would find a way to make a positive difference in the outcome - however she does it.

 

Does that make sense? 

 

When I hear someone say that they could never homeschool, I believe some of them, but then I also know that ten years ago, I was one of them.  If something is important to us, many of us do seek to make changes.

 

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I know this is weird, but I actually believe that rape is still socially acceptable in American culture, just maybe not as much as some other cultures.

 

A black woman raped by a black man - probably didn't happen

A black woman raped by a white, powerful man - never, never happened

A white woman raped by a "promising" white student athlete - there were extenuating circumstances

 

We believe in and abhor "stranger" rapes. We often look the other way for coaches, clergy, and congressmen who assault women. Campus assaults are nearly always written off as drinking students.

 

So long as we aren't the woman raped, we are willing to "buckle up" and accept collateral damage.

 

Rape is very difficult to prove under the judicial system we live under. I think that is why safety measures are discussed so quickly. Because we DO know it can happen to us. We DO know it would be difficult to prove and we could be drug through the mud.

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I know this is weird, but I actually believe that rape is still socially acceptable in American culture, just maybe not as much as some other cultures.

 

A black woman raped by a black man - probably didn't happen

A black woman raped by a white, powerful man - never, never happened

A white woman raped by a "promising" white student athlete - there were extenuating circumstances

 

We believe in and abhor "stranger" rapes. We often look the other way for coaches, clergy, and congressmen who assault women. Campus assaults are nearly always written off as drinking students.

 

So long as we aren't the woman raped, we are willing to "buckle up" and accept collateral damage.

 

Marital rape wasn't a crime in all 50 states until 1993, and many of the laws are still ridiculous.

 

Crime labs are woefully underfunded. Rape test kits often go unprocessed or have years-long backlogs. Some politicians have suggested making victims pay for the processing.

 

Slut shaming and victim blaming are really only part of the warped view of rape in our society.

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I wasn't implying that Scarlet would follow one and only one particular course of action, but she has always struck me as a strong woman and I visualize her as someone would find a way to make a positive difference in the outcome - however she does it.

 

Does that make sense?

 

When I hear someone say that they could never homeschool, I believe some of them, but then I also know that ten years ago, I was one of them. If something is important to us, many of us do seek to make changes.

 

I probably wasn't clear that I am politically neutral. So yes I might feel compelled to DO something but it would not be to get involved in politics.

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It's completely possible to believe all of that and discuss how reduce rape opportunity.

 

Yes. This. Maybe the discussion of how to reduce opportunity would have been better as a separate thread. But it is frustrating to see people talking past each other.

 

As a parent of sons, I'm trying to prep my soon-to-be college freshman for what he will encounter in college culture. One of the things we've discussed is the overabundance of alcohol in campus settings and the variety of risky situations it creates for both men and women. We've talked about the need for him to stay sober for safety reasons. We've also talked about the need for him to be the "good guy"... to watch out for classmates who drink too much... and to take action to help and protect female classmates who may be vulnerable due to inebriation.

 

That's part of reducing the chance for someone to be assaulted and it needs to be discussed.

 

If my soon-to-be-freshman were a girl, she'd get the same "stay sober" advice. Because we live in the real world, failing to have either discussion would be negligent on my part. Will my kids still make mistakes? Yep. I only pray they won't be serious ones. Do they "deserve" to be victimized because of those mistakes? Absolutely not. Does teaching them to do everything "right" guarantee their safety? No, of course not. But I'm still going to try.

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No I don't think I could. so where does that end? There is always a project or a cause that someone thinks is the answer. I have chosen to focus on what is realistically within my control.....my own actions, and raising my children and being the best wife and mother and friend I can be. Part of which includes being as safe as I can be to avoid bad situations and people.

 

I don't know why that is so offensive.

 

Maybe when there is a thread on a particular rape case, it's time to throw up a spin off that lists all of the things you can do to be as safe as you can be in case anyone doesn't know them, maybe like a PSA. 

 

I don't think there is a single poster on this thread that doesn't know all the safety precautions and practice a significant proportion of them.  I also doubt that there is a single poster on this thread who hasn't told their children those precautions at an age appropriate time. 

 

No one has said that you can't do the same for your children.

 

Again, where the push back comes from is that the very first comments and majority of the comments from you and similar posters concern the actions of the woman. This always gives the impression that the most important factor is the woman's actions, not the rapist's. That is the part that is offensive. For the victims on the thread, I would imagine that no amount of sugar coating can change that initial punch to the gut that those posts contribute.

 

The other posters on the thread aren't children who need instruction on how to avoid being raped.  It's been drilled into us all from an early age.

 

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Rape is very difficult to prove under the judicial system we live under. I think that is why safety measures are discussed so quickly. Because we DO know it can happen to us. We DO know it would be difficult to prove and we could be drug through the mud.

 

Maybe I am naive, but I do believe that it is worth trying to change the current system.

 

I have to believe we can change it. I recently found out that a young woman very dear to me was assaulted and that the bastard will walk because she is unwilling and unable to navigate the system.  That is wrong on so many levels.

 

How many rapes are acceptable before we get off our hands?

 

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Please read this study about rape from the UN.

 

(sorry if it's already been posted, long thread)

 

Obviously most of us don't live in these countries, but some posters are saying hey rape is a human trait, and I don't necessarily disagree, so that should not be pertinent.

 

According TO 70+% of RAPISTS, they themselves said they raped because of a sense of entitlement to women's bodies. <<<<------- so no need to wonder about rape culture any more. Straight from the donkey's mouth.

 

Rape perpetration committed by men is quite frequent in the general population in the countries studied, as it is in other countries where similar research has been undertaken, such as South Africa. Prevention of rape is essential, and interventions must focus on childhood and adolescence, and address culturally rooted male gender socialisation and power relations, abuse in childhood, and poverty.

 

 

Edited by OKBud
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Maybe when there is a thread on a particular rape case, it's time to throw up a spin off that lists all of the things you can do to be as safe as you can be in case anyone doesn't know them, maybe like a PSA.

 

I don't think there is a single poster on this thread that doesn't know all the safety precautions and practice a significant proportion of them. I also doubt that there is a single poster on this thread who hasn't told their children those precautions at an age appropriate time.

 

No one has said that you can't do the same for your children.

 

Again, where the push back comes from is that the very first comments and majority of the comments from you and similar posters concern the actions of the woman. This always gives the impression that the most important factor is the woman's actions, not the rapist's. That is the part that is offensive. For the victims on the thread, I would imagine that no amount of sugar coating can change that initial punch to the gut that those posts contribute.

 

The other posters on the thread aren't children who need instruction on how to avoid being raped. It's been drilled into us all from an early age.

 

My first post on this thread was 442.

I don't think a woman's actions as a rape victim are more important than a rapist. I do however belive that is the variable that she can control. It isn't perfect of course.....but she can control herself....not a rapist.

 

If any of you think you can control or stop rapists be my guest.

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This is what it comes down to, really.   If rapes just happen, then it a woman's responsibility to avoid them.

Except rapes don't just happen.  It's not "anyone who can does".  A whole lot of countries have a whole lot more rape than in US.  Obviously we are doing something they aren't to prevent that.   There are armies that routinely use rape as a weapon of war; the US is most definitely  not one of those countries.  No, we can't stop all crime, but it's not something completely out of our control either.

 

There are many recent stories of US [and other Western] military members doing such things - the US literally has people around the world protesting to get stations out of their countries with a major reason being sexual assaults rates and those rapists going un/under punished  - and there are many recent reports of high ranking military officers telling women in the US's military services that being raped by their colleagues is simply a 'work hazard' that they have to accept even when most statistics give strong evidence that it far more likely that a woman in military service is more likely to be raped by her colleagues [most recent figures have it around 20%]  than to be killed by enemy fire. Just because it isn't official like with ISIS doesn't mean it isn't happening and being supported by a system and culture that views rape as an acceptable use of power.

 

Until it is out of our cultures, it will be in our military and pointing how it is worse with others doesn't help especially when looking at the most vulnerable who face very high chances of being raped [1 in 3 for American Indigenous women, for disabled people in the US and UK it is well over half] and do not differ as much from other places where we might look in concern. 

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I have a question: Is there a culture anywhere on earth where rape is extremely rare and not remotely tolerated?

 

Of course.

 

 

 

Posting that partisan site because I can't see the study they reference and don't know if others also can not.

 

She looked at 95 band and tribal cultures and found that 47% were rape-free; 33% had rape present but with frequency unknown but not atypical; and 17% were Ă¢â‚¬Å“rape-prone.Ă¢â‚¬  A summary of SandayĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s findings can be found here. The differences between the rape-prone cultures and those in which rape did not occur were clear and statistically significant.

 

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Isn't it sad how some will give it their all to supposedly keep females safe from transgendered males assaulting them in restrooms but we still have a tough time believing women when they actually are raped?

I don't know anyone like that at all. No one I know is worried about transgendered assaulting women In restrooms.....and no one I know disbelieved a rape victim. Believing a rape victim and proving her rapist guilty under the law are two very different things.

Edited by Scarlett
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Maybe I am naive, but I do believe that it is worth trying to change the current system.

 

I have to believe we can change it. I recently found out that a young woman very dear to me was assaulted and that the bastard will walk because she is unwilling and unable to navigate the system. That is wrong on so many levels.

 

How many rapes are acceptable before we get off our hands?

 

We'd have to believe that they 'count' as rape first. Then we'd have to believe that the perpetrator wasn't just confused/tricked/carried away...

 

I need more than a hand to count the number of sexual assault attackers, that I personally know about, who walked free.

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My mom was raped at age 13. That would have been 1958. She told no one until she was 21. She beat into my head that I must always tell if I am ever harmed.....because her rapist told her he would tell everyone she wanted him to do it. She had good parents. They would have believed her. She was a prepubescent girl who had been babysitting this mans children and he gave her a ride home....he stopped on a country isolated road and raped her and her shoe fell out of the truck and he had to,go,back and find it. Sick. I mean what the heck.

 

So I was always super careful with my kid.....and I never had my husband drive the sitter anywhere.....that is how my family dealt with the aftermath of rape. Protect ourselves and our children. Still and yet when I was 37 years old and almost raped in my own bed...stopped by my Xh.....he did not react properly. It was a nightmare. If my brother had not been there my own sanity might have failed me and made me believe I did cause it or ask for it.

 

What he still says to this day is that if I had really almost been raped I would have called the police. Ha. He also threatened to 'tell' everyone what I had done. For years I was controlled by this crap. As a grown adult, with ALOT of experience in life and this kind of stuff. So I KNOW this happens. I am not operating without knowledge or experience.

 

However when a divorce was happening....and he continued to think he would control me with my big secret....I just started telling everyone. The support I received was OVERWHELMING.. The ANGER was toward the almost rapist and my Xh...not me. So that is how I operate. I have no judgement toward women almost raped or raped. I have compassion., I have righteous indignation. And I also have practical suggestions for the future.

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We'd have to believe that they 'count' as rape first. Then we'd have to believe that the perpetrator wasn't just confused/tricked/carried away...

 

I need more than a hand to count the number of sexual assault attackers, that I personally know about, who walked free.

Yes. Because "feeling/believing it is true" or an accusation alone is not usually considered evidence of any crime, rape or otherwise. At best, it starts an investigation that *might* dredge up evidence that can be used in court. Many or most walk free not bc of lack of belief - but because providing legal evidence proving sex wasn't wanted is difficult even if they can prove the sex acts happened, which is also often difficult to prove. Because the not wanting is the only aspect that makes the sex a crime.

 

This is the hazard of a system that presumes innocent until proven guilty.

 

It is frustrating I completely agree, but I'm not sure how we can fix that without tossing due process out the window and I'm unwilling to do that.

 

I would be willing to have mandatory minimum sentencing for sex crimes and for all sex crimes to be treated as violent offender crimes.

 

For example, while everyone is pissy about mentioning she drank, I'm pissy about everyone mentioning how she was behind a dumpster. As though it matters at all where the raped happened? Would it have somehow been a nicer rape (talk about oxymoron) if he had done it in his dorm or car? The ACT itself shows no regard for her person, it's not like rapists who are being considerate by doing it somewhere else. All they care about is opportunity to do what they want to do.

 

I whole heartedly agree there are not enough state crime labs or state coroners. The pay and the job suck, so most aren't eager for it, but better pay and more facilities would be a fine start. It's another area where working for the govt is not the cushy job many people seem to always think it is.

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My first post on this thread was 442.

I don't think a woman's actions as a rape victim are more important than a rapist. I do however belive that is the variable that she can control. It isn't perfect of course.....but she can control herself....not a rapist.

 

If any of you think you can control or stop rapists be my guest.

 

A significant number of rapes occur in settings where the victim trusts the rapist.  She may have known him for a while. He may be a friend.

 

Have you never had a glass of wine with a male friend?

 

Have you never been drunk with a male that you trust?

 

Maybe you haven't.

 

So no drinking with a male ever? Because you have  to control yourself to be safe.

 

When I was in college, I worked a graveyard shift and had to walk two blocks from where I parked to my apartment over a grocery store at 2 am.  By the standards here, I was an idiot.  I did what I did because I had to.  It's not the same as drinking to excess, but I sure as heck wasn't following the safety protocol.

 

Stop rapists?  Well, maybe we could begin by not elevating athletes to god status and giving them free passes for bad behavior.  Maybe we can boycott the hell out of companies that make ads that promote getting your good friend drunk so you can get some action.  Maybe country singer Luke Bryan shouldn't make all his songs about getting drunk and getting laid. 

 

Maybe we should continue to teach our daughters that sleeping with a guy is not the way to get him to love you.  That's still a fairly prevalent attitude in spite of the hook-up culture.

 

I am willing to bet you there are a whole lot of guys who think if they take a girl to the prom, their entitled to "some."  Can we work on that?

 

I don't know, Scarlett, but I am willing to try and do more than be safe.  I have both a daughter and two sons.  I'd like it to go well for all of them.

 

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I've been thinking a lot about guy attitudes and guy friendship codes ever since I read that case about the football player who called in his buddies to assault his girlfriend. You know, the one where they dumped her partially clothed (or naked, can't remember) body in the hallway and other guys in the dorm walked on past her.  The guy code is strong and it is part of the issue.

 

 

Okay, I'm just going to post this - this is the thing that guy wrote on FB,.  I think it does a great job explaining why "he was drunk" is never an excuse, and also some ideas how to not raise boys who will not follow that path:

 

Matt Lang

Yesterday at 6:13pm Â· 
 

I've been drunk many times, even in the presence of promiscuous women who were also drunk, and I managed not to rape them, so I don't think drinking and promiscuity are the problems.

This here is the problem: some guys are entitled pricks, and they're entitled pricks because their fathers and coaches and friends taught them to be entitled pricks. Because they are entitled pricks, they think they can have whatever they want, and that their worth is defined by what they have and what they take.

Alcohol has this capacity to unlock what, deep down, we've always wanted to do. For me, that means, occasionally, running naked in places I probably shouldn't, like through libraries or deserts (remember for next time: deserts=cactuses). But even at my most intoxicated, I've never lost sight of the fact that rape is wrong, because I was raised to know it's wrong. No amount of alcohol can depress that value.

Brock Turner and his ilk were never taught that. They were taught that they can have what they want, when they want, including women. And that's called being a man. Brock Turner thought he was entitled to a little "action" any way he could get it, and he thought that long before he got drunk. The alcohol didn't introduce that thought, it unlocked it. That thought: "I can take whatever I want, including her", was planted and watered by a whole, rotten village.

It is right that we shame him, and his father, and the friend that came to his defense, and the judge, and every other entitled prick we meet.

Just as importantly, we need to love our boys, and teach them the dignity of the body, and how to live through disappointment and confusion, and how to navigate confusing feelings, and how to separate feelings from action, and how to communicate and listen. We need to redefine for them what it is to be a man, that their worth doesn't come from that which they have and take.

 

 

And while I'm at it, this is another post talking about the two guys who did not follow the 'guy code' but stopped this jerk instead:

 

Liz de Belcaire

Yesterday at 6:52pm Â· 
 

Like everyone else, I've been bombarded by the story of the Stanford Rapist and Judge RichWhitePeopleGetOffEasy and Big Daddy RapeApologist.

I'd like to offer a few words about two of the men in this story. But not the two men who are getting all the airtime.

I want to say something about the two nameless Swedish guys who interrupted the rape. Now THERE are two guys I'd like to meet. And I'd like to know their parents too.

Because these two young men, upon seeing a motionless mostly naked woman being thrust upon by a guy behind a dumpster, did NOT shrug and keep on biking, willing to let it go as "not their business" or "oh she must have consented 'cause she went to a party."

They apparently didn't feel kinship with the blonde, pale-skinned guy. They didn't worry about their own safety in that moment. (Granted, there were two of them and one rapist.)

Instead of ignoring the situation, they broke it up. And when the rapist ran away, they ran him down, held him, and called the cops.

For all my friends who are parents of sons out there--this story doesn't just have villains. It has heroes. Examples you can hold up to show them who they could grow up to become. Brave, compassionate, willing to put themselves out to help a total stranger. Understanding enough to realize that a motionless woman on the ground behind a dumpster probably didn't "want it" and in fact needed help.

Good men do exist. They even existed in this story. In the midst of sorrow and rage and heartache, I have hope.

ED: I've made this post public--share away.

 

Edited by Matryoshka
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