Where do boundaries and duty to your parents meet?

[GAPeachie]

I briefly shared in the "Would you change you name" thread that I have a very difficult relationship with my mother. 

 

I believe she is mentally ill from what I've been told in counseling and therapy sessions that I attended to sort out some thoughts in my head (in another state.)  She, of course, will not consider the notion... instead she says that I'm the one with mental illness. 

 

I do struggle with anxiety and some depression but I've recently dealt with two deaths (one my main mother figure, the other my only father figure and he died on my wedding anniversary) and had a miscarriage and we've been moved across the country twice in less than a year by my husband's company. 

 

I'm happily married with five children and can truly say that I'm married to my best friend.  I can't even tell you the last time we argued.  We will be married 12 years this April.  I'm active in church and have several very close long term friendships and am making new friendships in our new location.  During our adoption, I had to get psychological clearance and the doctor was amazed given my history that I am as well adjusted as I am.  Statistics are bleak and yet, I've consciously put supports in place to help me. 

 

I've not seen my mother in 10 years this fall. I created a boundary and told her that she had to tell the truth if she wanted contact with me and my children.  She has twisted this to relatives to tell them that I "stole" her grandchildren and she has NO IDEA why she isn't permitted to see them.  *sigh*

 

We have occasionally spoken over Facebook chat when she finds out that I've called relatives to find any clues about who my father is. She usually tells me to quit digging in her past.  She has retired and moved to be closer to her mother and step or half brother.  (I only found out that they weren't full biological siblings this past fall... it's a long story.) 

 

After a lengthy facebook chat (which is my boundary because she is verbally abusive but manages to control it if she has to write her statements) it is clear that she is never going to attempt to rectify the relationship.  

 

I'm her only child.  And this is where I begin to doubt myself.  What do I do as she gets older?  Do I let her rely on family and/or friends and continue to keep my boundary.... or do I do what it takes to help her as she ages?  If I do what it takes to help her as she ages, how do I keep my boundaries intact?  Does that make sense or is it her guilt trip making me doubt myself?  

 

My husband says he will support my decision no matter what I choose, yet he knows it took many years of deprogramming once I set my boundary.  He has a somewhat similar relationship with his mother although he isn't the only child so he doesn't have the added pressure of "me or no one."  

 

Hitting post before I chicken out. 

 

 

 

[zoobie]

You have zero obligation to her. :grouphug:

[shawthorne44]

I agree with Zoobie totally and completely.   You have zero obligation to her.  She is an adult, it was on her to prepare.  People that help her do so willingly, or they wouldn't be doing it. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Let it go.   :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[fairfarmhand]

No obligation. I'm sorry about it all. It is sad that you don't have the kind of mother that you could take care of. But if you open up that relationship again, you are also opening up the possibility of her transferring her ugliness to your children and husband as well. If you don't do it for yourself, do it for your family too. You've fought too long to get healthy to have her undoing it.

[bolt.]

I think, within the framework of your own values, that you have a duty to attempt to intervene if her actual life and wellbeing begin to be at risk. (Evenif she is still mentally ill, and won't meet your requirement of 'telling the truth')

 

This means things like: making various honest attempts to prevent her from becoming homeless, trying to ensure that she doesn't starve, and making efforts towards seeing her receive adequate medical care that is free from abuse or neglect. These things can be at least *attempted* while still maintaining good boundaries. I reccomend good care for yourself (a therapist?) once it comes down to the nitty gritty.

 

If you make those kinds of efforts, and are able to maintain a demeanor with her that is not actively disrespectful (ie cool and professional), that's the limit of your obligations under the commandment to 'honour your parent'. To be clear, if she resists your honest efforts, attempts to damage you emotionally while you try to help, or refuses to consent to cooperating with your efforts -- you are not obligated to do more than give an honest try (or maybe a few honest tries). If it doesn't work, and you she makes it impossible for you to help, that's her choice not yours.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Zero obligation, but either way cross that bridge when you come to it.  You aren't facing this now right? 

 

 

[GAPeachie]

Zero obligation, but either way cross that bridge when you come to it.  You aren't facing this now right? 

 

Technically, I am not.  Although she brought it up last night in the conversation, that I am "so hateful" that she could die of starvation and I'd never notice.  I ignored the comment in our chat.  She was angry that I had called her mother to check in as I do every now and then.  None of my "family" makes an effort to call me.  I didn't even meet my grandmother until I was 12.  This is a generational thing that I hope to change for my children which is why I attended therapy sessions to break the cycle.  Well, that and I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy like my mother has repeatedly suggested.  

 

I have nothing to suggest she is starving although she has always been financially irresponsible.  She regularly takes my grandmother to the grocery store and is quite social in her area from what other relatives have told me.  So I am trying to chalk that comment up as a guilt trip.

 

One of the strategies I learned in therapy was to attempt to make a plan ahead of time, so that I was less likely to be sucked into emotional attacks.  So when I saw her comment last night, I thought, "Oh this is her method of trying to draw me in" and now I'm trying to think through my options when it isn't in the heat of the moment so I can stand firm.    

 

Really, it's like playing Chess with an opponent that isn't held to rules when you don't have all your pieces AND you are held to the rules.  It's impossible to "win."  So I just need to make a decision that *I* can live with.

[zoobie]

I'd stop FB communication too. She's only using it to abuse you, and the contact isn't healthy for either of you. :grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

I encourage you not to make some absolute rule for yourself.  

Except maybe "I will take my time in determining my responses as situations change."

I don't think you have to figure out all of the hypotheticals right now.  Right now you mostly have to figure out how to be healthy, how to take care of your children, your husband and yourself, and how to serve God.  

 

Something that might help is to think of her as a toddler that you like.  Can you do that?

So, for instance, if she says something rude, instead of arguing that she shouldn't talk like that, you could say, "You may not talk to me like that."  But affectionately, not hostilely.  

 

I would absolutely expect honesty in a relationship, but not necessarily complete candor.  So if what you have broken over isn't the verbal meanness but rather the question of your paternity, I'm very sympathetic to your desire to know this, but you do have to realize that in a sense you're asking about her sex life, and that is kind of private.  Just some food for thought.

[GAPeachie]

I'd stop FB communication too. She's only using it to abuse you, and the contact isn't healthy for either of you. :grouphug:

 

 

This is something that my husband and I discussed last night.  Internally, I like to think the best of people and so I've left the door cracked when what I really NEED to do is to slam the door, lock it with multiple locks and put bars on it. 

 

Yet, I hear a small, quiet voice that says, "What if..."  I need to drown it out. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

One of the very wise boardies told me that it's because we've been conditioned since birth to cater to her (our narcissistic mothers), and that's why it's so hard.  This is absolutely true.  When we put our needs before her wants, it feels wrong, even though it's not.  

 

Hugs.

 

I would stop communicating with her completely.  She is a grown woman and will need to figure it out herself.  She made her bed and now must lie in it.  

[Tanaqui]

You have no obligation towards people who harm you. And she is harming you, really.

 

I know what people say - she raised you, she gave birth to you, etc. Well, so what? Children need to be looked after, and somebody has to do it. That's where your obligation lies - to yourself and YOUR children.

 

If I were in your situation, then the very most I would tentatively commit to - and this only if I could afford it - is to help subsidize her care at a facility if she requires that sort of help as she ages.

[Kassia]

We must share a mother.

 

I am permanently estranged from my mother because she is a narcissist and a compulsive liar.  She actually tried to sue me over something just to force me to hire a lawyer to defend myself because she wanted me to spend the money.  I could go on and on about the horrible things she's done.  If she needs help someday, she'll have to find it herself.  She made her bed...

 

I'm sorry about what you've been through with your own mother.  

 

Erica

[GAPeachie]

I encourage you not to make some absolute rule for yourself.  

Except maybe "I will take my time in determining my responses as situations change."

I don't think you have to figure out all of the hypotheticals right now.  Right now you mostly have to figure out how to be healthy, how to take care of your children, your husband and yourself, and how to serve God.  

 

Something that might help is to think of her as a toddler that you like.  Can you do that?

So, for instance, if she says something rude, instead of arguing that she shouldn't talk like that, you could say, "You may not talk to me like that."  But affectionately, not hostilely.  

 

I would absolutely expect honesty in a relationship, but not necessarily complete candor.  So if what you have broken over isn't the verbal meanness but rather the question of your paternity, I'm very sympathetic to your desire to know this, but you do have to realize that in a sense you're asking about her sex life, and that is kind of private.  Just some food for thought.

 

I have started talking to her as if she is one of my toddlers as you suggest.  

 

The verbal meanness comes often in the form of twisting some event to where I am always the evil one.  I'm the problem the has caused every hard thing in her life. I killed her three marriages even though I wasn't born for one and had moved out years before her last one ended.  I caused her cancer.  I caused her hair to fall out.  I killed my step father.  etc, etc, etc.  I probably caused the downturn in the economy that hurt her retirement fund too.  I don't know because I end conversations when she starts down this path. 

 

I've tried to reframe these into truthful statements.  "I did not cause your hair to fall out, that is a side effect of chemo."

 

She cannot have a cordial, surface level polite conversation without lots of blame shifting and bringing up her twisted view of the past.  I've tried... multiple times.  It never ends well.  

 

Our views of my biological father are vastly different, which I have recently just accepted as something I will never know. I've been told by a reliable source that she once said my father was deceased. Either way, she will take it to the grave, which she also likes to brag about, so I stopped asking her.  Therapy has helped me see that since I am an independent adult in every sense of the word, this is her ONE area that she can continue to control.  

 

My oldest daughter is from my first marriage and while she has never met her biological father, I've been open and honest when she has questions (being developmentally appropriate and without slamming him.)  I've accepted that at some point in the future, she may venture into the realm of wanting to meet him and may even maintain some kind of relationship with him.  It won't be a slight to me or my husband who has adopted her.  

 

I do the same for my oldest son (we adopted him through a private semi-open domestic adoption) and I have the same views if he ever decides he would like to learn more about his biological family. 

[gardenmom5]

there's only so much you can do - and some of that depends upon her cooperation.

 

making sure she has medicare and medicaid if applicable, and a roof over her head is being dutiful.  that roof can be a nursing home within her means that meets health and safety codes.  it doesn't need to be with you - and you don't have to visit if visiting her makes you feel unsafe.

 

My mother was an only child - and a minister (my mother didn't attend a church, neither did my grandmother) convinced my mother to put her mother in a nursing home because to care for her, herself - was making her ill. (when she was still in an apartment, she'd go every saturday.  my mother would be in a fender bender coming or going at least once a month.)

 

My own boundary imposed several years before my grandmother died, was one max of 15 minute phone call once a week.  I'd talk as long as she was polite/civil.  we had lots of phone calls that were less than five minutes.

[mamiof5]

I honestly have no idea, sorry I can't help. I just can't imagine this type of situation... no idea what I would do. Kuddos for you for trying to deal with her the best as you possibly can, and for being able to stay strong amidst the circumstances. Will pray for you!

[IdahoHomeschooler]

You have no 'duty' to provide any care to your abuser. Your 'duty' is to protect your nuclear family (spouse+kids) from your abuser. Your mother sounds like she might be a malignant narcissist. http://www.decision-making-confidence.com/symptoms-of-narcissism.html. It's good that you are limiting contact, but it sounds as though she is still managing to abuse you through the limited channel she has available. You might want to really examine if that is healthy for you.

[gardenmom5]

One of the very wise boardies told me that it's because we've been conditioned since birth to cater to her (our narcissistic mothers), and that's why it's so hard.  This is absolutely true.  When we put our needs before her wants, it feels wrong, even though it's not.  

 

Hugs.

 

I would stop communicating with her completely.  She is a grown woman and will need to figure it out herself.  She made her bed and now must lie in it.  

 

this-

 

OP - you said she's likely mentally ill, though she insists you are the crazy one.  Narcisstic mothers (or grandmother) can often make US think *we* are crazy (even though it really is them.).  they train a defenseless baby from birth to cater to their whims.  think pavlov's dog.  you don't even realize they're doing it.  by the time you are an adult - you have been well and truly conditioned to cater to them.  you are an extention of "them".  and it is all about "them".

 

I would suggest looking at this quiz.  it was written by a pscyhologist who works with children of narcissists.  http://www.willieverbegoodenough.com/narcissistic-mother-survey/

there are some very good sites online.  (I'd link, but I've lost my links.)

just the validation of knowing *we* aren't crazy has great meaning.

Edited February 12, 2016 by gardenmom5

[GAPeachie]

this-

 

OP - you said she's likely mentally ill, though she insists you are the crazy one.  Narcisstic mothers (or grandmother) can often make US think *we* are crazy (even though it really is them.).  they train a defenseless baby from birth to cater to their whims.  think pavlov's dog.  you don't even realize they're doing it.  by the time you are an adult - you have been well and truly conditioned to cater to them.  you are an extention of "them".  and it is all about "them".

 

I would suggest looking at this quiz.  it was written by a pscyhologist who works with children of narcissists.  http://www.willieverbegoodenough.com/narcissistic-mother-survey/

there are some very good sites online.  (I'd link, but I've lost my links.)

just the validation of knowing *we* aren't crazy has great meaning.

 

I read through the questions and nearly every one was yes.  I've never measured up to what she expected.  I graduated 7th with high honors in high school and she told me that she wasn't sending out my invitations because I wasn't the val or sal.  

 

My graduation gift was dinner at a chain steakhouse with her and what became my first husband.  And my driver's license and social security card.  She had kicked me out of the house on Mother's Day with no belongings.  So she gave me what was mine as a present.  Even put it in a beautiful gift bag.  

 

My mother has tried to convince me since I was around 13 that I was the one that was mentally ill.  She doctor shopped.  If the counselor said I had a valid point or that my request/thought was reasonable, we had to find another one.  It was the kiss of death.  

 

She currently tells people that I'm an un-medicated bipolar and that she has no idea where I am.  I just "pop out babies" and she can't believe I act the way I do after how much she sacrificed to raise me.  All that while she has had access to me on Facebook.  

 

That access ended today. It's freeing and scary at the same time.  

[Kassia]

I read through the questions and nearly every one was yes.  I've never measured up to what she expected.  I graduated 7th with high honors in high school and she told me that she wasn't sending out my invitations because I wasn't the val or sal.  

 

My graduation gift was dinner at a chain steakhouse with her and what became my first husband.  And my driver's license and social security card.  She had kicked me out of the house on Mother's Day with no belongings.  So she gave me what was mine as a present.  Even put it in a beautiful gift bag.  

 

My mother has tried to convince me since I was around 13 that I was the one that was mentally ill.  She doctor shopped.  If the counselor said I had a valid point or that my request/thought was reasonable, we had to find another one.  It was the kiss of death.  

 

She currently tells people that I'm an un-medicated bipolar and that she has no idea where I am.  I just "pop out babies" and she can't believe I act the way I do after how much she sacrificed to raise me.  All that while she has had access to me on Facebook.  

 

That access ended today. It's freeing and scary at the same time.  

 

My mother did the exact same thing with therapy!  She took me to a therapist who told her I was fine, but she should be seen and my mother left and said she didn't like that therapist.  Honestly, being estranged has been such a huge relief.  I never realized how toxic she was to me until she was out of my life (mostly...she stalks me and contacts people we have in common to backstab me, but there's nothing I can do about it).  I have three adult children and she tried to turn them against me, but now they won't have anything to do with her either.  

 

Good luck to you and I'm sorry for what you've been through.  

 

Erica

Edited February 13, 2016 by ebh87

[Tanaqui]

My graduation gift was dinner at a chain steakhouse with her and what became my first husband.  And my driver's license and social security card.  She had kicked me out of the house on Mother's Day with no belongings.  So she gave me what was mine as a present.  Even put it in a beautiful gift bag.

 

You know what? It could be worse. It's not even a little unheard of for these parents to attempt to keep their adult child from accessing their own birth certificate or social security card - or to even GET a driver's license! It's really scary what a low bar some of these parents set for adequate parenting.

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by Tanaqui

[Alicia64]

I read through the questions and nearly every one was yes.  I've never measured up to what she expected.  I graduated 7th with high honors in high school and she told me that she wasn't sending out my invitations because I wasn't the val or sal.  

 

My graduation gift was dinner at a chain steakhouse with her and what became my first husband.  And my driver's license and social security card.  She had kicked me out of the house on Mother's Day with no belongings.  So she gave me what was mine as a present.  Even put it in a beautiful gift bag.  

 

My mother has tried to convince me since I was around 13 that I was the one that was mentally ill.  She doctor shopped.  If the counselor said I had a valid point or that my request/thought was reasonable, we had to find another one.  It was the kiss of death.  

 

She currently tells people that I'm an un-medicated bipolar and that she has no idea where I am.  I just "pop out babies" and she can't believe I act the way I do after how much she sacrificed to raise me.  All that while she has had access to me on Facebook.  

 

That access ended today. It's freeing and scary at the same time.  

 

((((GAPeachie)))): You are not alone. I'm the mentally ill one in my family who "is not allowing contact" (according to my mom) with the grand kids.  I had to stop all contact when my dad became abusive to one son who had adored his grandfather. My son was appalled and so was I. I had believed the entire story that "everything" was my fault so when my nutty parents started targeting my niece and then my son, I pulled the plug.

 

The sad thing is that these people seem to get worse with age. I heard of one abusive father who mellowed when he got Alzheimers.

 

I think you did the right thing -- for yourself and your family.

 

Take care -- I know it's really painful and hard.

 

Alley

[Pen]

I'm sorry. It sounds like you've been going through a lot.

 

Before you decide you have zero obligation, check out your state law to make sure that in your state you do not have any legal obligation. To me it does not sound like you have a moral obligation.

 

I am not sure if you can emotionally do this, but you might consider writing her (very carefully) and keeping a copy, a letter expressing what you would need from her in terms of rectifying the situation. It would need to be very clear and measurable as to whether or not it has been met or not. She probably won't and can't, but you would then know that you have made your needs clear to her. Rather than having it be a situation where you expect her to know what your needs are, but maybe she doesn't.

 

Personally, at that point, I would cut all ties, no more FB, other than leaving it open for her to rectify the situation should she want to and should she be able to.

 

[Tsuga]

You are in a very tough spot.

 

I don't know what I would do. My mom is amazing. My dad is less amazing but he's trying. My mom, we would sacrifice to keep her at home and I imagine that at some point I will have to take significant time off for her end of life care. My dad... I would do his papers and make sure he got care.

 

I agree with others who have pointed out that you may have legal obligations.

 

May your mother live a healthy life until it is her time, and then I hope she passes peacefully and quickly.

[applethyme]

Unless your state says you have a legal obligation, I see no obligation on your part.

 

As a hospice nurse I have seen many family dynamics.  We do have patients that have zero contact with their children. 

[8circles]

  :grouphug:  :grouphug: I'm sorry for all the stress you're under.  That's a lot to manage.   :grouphug:

 

You are not obligated to put yourself in a situation where you know you will be hurt in some way.  Your primary obligation is to yourself & your children.  If continued interraction with your mother makes you less able to live your life in a healthy way or to parent your kids in a healthy way, you have a responsibility - not an option, a responsibility - to not interract with her anymore.

[GAPeachie]

You know what? It could be worse. It's not even a little unheard of for these parents to attempt to keep their adult child from accessing their own birth certificate or social security card - or to even GET a driver's license! It's really scary what a low bar some of these parents set for adequate parenting.

 

 

YES!  I'm thankful that my step dad was around.  Without him, I would never have gotten a license.  He taught me to drive and took me to the testing site for both my Learner's permit and my license.  Their very shaky marriage was dying because she had given me a small break and instead turned on him.  My mother had my birth certificate hidden and it appeared the days he took me and then quickly disappeared.  Their marriage was on and off again for the next 5-6 years because neither could agree on who would move out.  She eventually moved out when he was out of state and took almost everything from the house.  Sigh. 

 

I ordered my own birth certificate once I was over 18. My college career was delayed despite having the HOPE scholarship because they wouldn't fill out the FAFSA for me.  I asked my college for a hardship exception and was denied.  Once I married my first husband, I no longer needed my parents for my FAFSA.  My December marriage brought a rain of fury on me when my husband filed joint taxes for 2001.  We supported ourselves from May to December but my mother was infuriated that I *dared* to claim myself.  It was "selfish" and "uncaring about her and her finances." 

 

**I don't recommend marriage to escape FAFSA responsibilities. Just in case anyone is curious. LOL 

 

My mother wouldn't give me any health insurance information or my military dependent ID.  Once I married, I was eligible for affordable health insurance. My employer was a very small company with rates that I couldn't pay and eat too.  

[GAPeachie]

I'm sorry. It sounds like you've been going through a lot.

 

Before you decide you have zero obligation, check out your state law to make sure that in your state you do not have any legal obligation. To me it does not sound like you have a moral obligation.

 

 

I agree with others who have pointed out that you may have legal obligations.

 

 

Unless your state says you have a legal obligation, I see no obligation on your part.

 

Do you know which state I should check?  The state I live in or the state she now lives in?  Or both? 

[gardenmom5]

I read through the questions and nearly every one was yes.  I've never measured up to what she expected.  I graduated 7th with high honors in high school and she told me that she wasn't sending out my invitations because I wasn't the val or sal.  

 

 

That access ended today. It's freeing and scary at the same time.  

 

:grouphug:   it's a big step - NPDs don't like not getting their way, and she's likely to be more determined to maintain what you currently have.  just as a warning of what will probably come, and to be strong. 

 

learning about NPD on the hive was such a turning point for me.  my grandmother had been dead for years - but her shadow was persistent.

 

when I realized what was going on - I felt like a ball and chain had been removed from my ankle.  it was hard, other family members complained and made condemning remarks - but I felt like I had been released from a prison cell.

 

 

 

 

 t you might consider writing her (very carefully) and keeping a copy, a letter expressing what you would need from her in terms of rectifying the situation. It would need to be very clear and measurable as to whether or not it has been met or not. She probably won't and can't, but you would then know that you have made your needs clear to her.

 

 

I would strongly discourage writing to her or any other form of communication about how you feel, or what she can do to rectify the situation..  any of us who've dealt with NPDs will tell you, that will be like waving a red flag in front of an incesnsed bull just begging them to charge you.  nothing you say will be heard, instead she will up her game about how horrible you are.

 

dh has a favorite saying that fits this well:  don't try and teach a pig to sing, it annoys the pig and wastes your time.

Edited February 13, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Amy in NH]

I have a couple of thoughts based on this and the other thread:

 

I agree that you have made a wise choice in setting up boundaries because it does sound like a toxic relationship.

 

I wonder, though, if she cannot give you what you are asking for.  Maybe she doesn't know who your father is?  Maybe it is a trauma from her past that she wants to forget?  Incest?  Rape?  And she is protecting herself, and thinks she is protecting you as well, from the truth?  I understand your desire to know your own history, but is it possible that she is just not able to meet this need you have?

[GAPeachie]

I have a couple of thoughts based on this and the other thread:

 

I agree that you have made a wise choice in setting up boundaries because it does sound like a toxic relationship.

 

I wonder, though, if she cannot give you what you are asking for.  Maybe she doesn't know who your father is?  Maybe it is a trauma from her past that she wants to forget?  Incest?  Rape?  And she is protecting herself, and thinks she is protecting you as well, from the truth?  I understand your desire to know your own history, but is it possible that she is just not able to meet this need you have?

 

I have considered this.   

 

My knowing my biological father isn't a "requirement" (for lack of a better word) for a relationship with me.  I do admit that as an adoptive parent it does baffle me.  

[gaillardia]

:grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug:  You are the one who is drawing the boundary lines now. There is no duty to someone who drags you through the mud. You can do this. I'm going through something with a family member too. It's hard. It hurts. But it feels better to detach.

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I have considered this.   

 

My knowing my biological father isn't a "requirement" (for lack of a better word) for a relationship with me.  I do admit that as an adoptive parent it does baffle me.  

Adoption is so different now, though.

And it's better now, but still, it's a 180 degree shift.

When I was little it was assumed that people who gave up their children for adoption wouldn't want to know anything about them ever again, ie would move on completely, and that by far the best thing for the kids would be to make a clean break and not necessarily even tell them that they were adopted so that they wouldn't feel different or alien in the family or in society.  There was much more of a tabula rosa view of children that played into this, as did the same of unwed motherhood at the time.  If you want to see that POV, you might dig up a very popular book of the time called "The Family That Nobody Wanted", written by an adoptive mother whose children were mostly mixed ethnicity.

 

I think, having seen both, that what we are doing now in terms of openness is a lot better. 

[Anne in CA]

I am sorry that you do not know who your biological father is. That is more than selfish, it could be a medical benefit to knowing your genetic history. Also, he probably is not a bad person, because she clearly wouldn't have straightened up to be in a healthy relationship with a good man. But that is just my guess.

[barnwife]

You have no obligation towards people who harm you. And she is harming you, really.

 

 

I think I want to frame this on my fridge.

 

OP, my situation is different than yours. However, I can absolutely understand how difficult figuring out boundaries with relatives can be.

 

 

That being said, I agree with other posters. You have no obligation.

 

I need to remember this myself in my own relationships with my family of origin.

[GAPeachie]

Adoption is so different now, though.

And it's better now, but still, it's a 180 degree shift.

When I was little it was assumed that people who gave up their children for adoption wouldn't want to know anything about them ever again, ie would move on completely, and that by far the best thing for the kids would be to make a clean break and not necessarily even tell them that they were adopted so that they wouldn't feel different or alien in the family or in society.  There was much more of a tabula rosa view of children that played into this, as did the same of unwed motherhood at the time.  If you want to see that POV, you might dig up a very popular book of the time called "The Family That Nobody Wanted", written by an adoptive mother whose children were mostly mixed ethnicity.

 

I think, having seen both, that what we are doing now in terms of openness is a lot better. 

 

 

Yes, I know.  My great-aunt was adopted.  In her lifetime, she saw the shift.  

 

I also have a child from my first marriage that my husband has raised since she was 6 weeks old and adopted.  I would not withhold the information from her, as I stated earlier.  She knows his name already.  I've explained this in a developmentally appropriate way to her.  I can't imagine not telling her.  

 

I am sorry that you do not know who your biological father is. That is more than selfish, it could be a medical benefit to knowing your genetic history. Also, he probably is not a bad person, because she clearly wouldn't have straightened up to be in a healthy relationship with a good man. But that is just my guess.

 

I've repeatedly explained this to my mother.  She is relying on 33+ year old information and tells me that there is nothing to be concerned about.  I can't make her understand that as you get older and technology changes you find out more.  I currently am suffering from a host of symptoms, we call it Fibromyalgia.  It could be something else.  This was the best fit for the symptoms I display. 

 

I think I want to frame this on my fridge.

 

I put it on a post-it on my laptop.  

Edited February 14, 2016 by GAPeachie

[Scarlett]

I think, within the framework of your own values, that you have a duty to attempt to intervene if her actual life and wellbeing begin to be at risk. (Evenif she is still mentally ill, and won't meet your requirement of 'telling the truth')

 

This means things like: making various honest attempts to prevent her from becoming homeless, trying to ensure that she doesn't starve, and making efforts towards seeing her receive adequate medical care that is free from abuse or neglect. These things can be at least *attempted* while still maintaining good boundaries. I reccomend good care for yourself (a therapist?) once it comes down to the nitty gritty.

 

If you make those kinds of efforts, and are able to maintain a demeanor with her that is not actively disrespectful (ie cool and professional), that's the limit of your obligations under the commandment to 'honour your parent'. To be clear, if she resists your honest efforts, attempts to damage you emotionally while you try to help, or refuses to consent to cooperating with your efforts -- you are not obligated to do more than give an honest try (or maybe a few honest tries). If it doesn't work, and you she makes it impossible for you to help, that's her choice not yours.

Bolt, sometimes I love you. This post is perfect.

[displace]

I have considered this.

 

My knowing my biological father isn't a "requirement" (for lack of a better word) for a relationship with me. I do admit that as an adoptive parent it does baffle me.

Maybe consider something unconventional like a DNA test or ancestry.com? Even if one person related to your dad on his side of the family has taken one of the tests or does in the future, you may be able to sleuth it out. Long shot probably but you never know. Edited February 14, 2016 by displace

[Scarlett]

I read through the questions and nearly every one was yes. I've never measured up to what she expected. I graduated 7th with high honors in high school and she told me that she wasn't sending out my invitations because I wasn't the val or sal.

 

My graduation gift was dinner at a chain steakhouse with her and what became my first husband. And my driver's license and social security card. She had kicked me out of the house on Mother's Day with no belongings. So she gave me what was mine as a present. Even put it in a beautiful gift bag.

 

My mother has tried to convince me since I was around 13 that I was the one that was mentally ill. She doctor shopped. If the counselor said I had a valid point or that my request/thought was reasonable, we had to find another one. It was the kiss of death.

 

She currently tells people that I'm an un-medicated bipolar and that she has no idea where I am. I just "pop out babies" and she can't believe I act the way I do after how much she sacrificed to raise me. All that while she has had access to me on Facebook.

 

That access ended today. It's freeing and scary at the same time.

 

(((((Hugs))))))

[GAPeachie]

It is this one: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/toys-games-sanctuary-of-knowledge-1000-piece-puzzle-b-n-exclusive/19178153

 

:)

 

Maybe consider something unconventional like a DNA test or ancestry.com? Even if one person related to your dad on his side of the family has taken one of the tests or does in the future, you may be able to sleuth it out. Long shot probably but you never know.

 

I'm looking at options.  I think even a broad answer of where my relatives would have been from would bring me a small amount of peace. 

 

Edited for homonyms.. duh!  LOL 

Edited February 15, 2016 by GAPeachie

[Dulce Domem]

I have the same questions you do. It's hard. Ever watch Tangled? I feel the same way Rapunzel feels for most of the way through the movie toward Mother Gothel (the witch who has put her in the tower and pretended to be her mother). She has trapped and abused me, yet I know how I feel I should act toward a mother figure. It's conflicting to say the least.

 

So no answers, but sympathy.

 

(I BEGGED my mother to put me in therapy in high school and college - she let me go once, sat in the room with me the entire time, then never let me go back for fear I would say something about her. I wish she had let me stay!!!)

[Entropymama]

I haven't read all the posts, so my apologies if this is redundant. 

 

You may not have any obligation to your mother, but you have an obligation to your own well-being, as you clearly know. When the time comes, if your mother is terminally ill, for example, try to consider how you will feel after she's gone and make your decisions based on that. It may be that a farewell visit, while in no way satisfactory to you, will soothe your conscience after she's gone. I had a distant relationship with my dad. When he passed last June I spend his last ten days at his side. We never did have that heart to heart talk, he never said more than five words to me. It hurt that he didn't want to heal our relationship, but I'm glad I was there for him. I feel I did everything I should have and more. (My relationship with my dad wasn't nearly as abusive as yours with your mom sounds, so take that as you will.)

 

And try not to worry too much now.  You can always decide when the time comes. 

[StephanieZ]

I'll just mention that you can keep yourself and your family safe from harm . . . while still being free to send money, order groceries to be delivered, etc, as much as you can afford and want to do. I don't think you are obligated to do anything for someone who has clearly caused you pain and has not been a part of your life for many years. But, that doesn't mean you can't, as an act of charity and/or simple familial duty, contribute to your mother's wellbeing when needed to whatever extent you can afford and feels right to you and your spouse. So, I'd just leave *that* thought on the table for you if it is ever needed.

 

I do know one woman who ended up being the caregiver for her mom for about a decade, even had her in her home and provided intense hands-on care . . . even though the mom had been rather horrible to her in the past. Once dementia sets in, people can change a lot. This friend of mine was also the only child, and she found closure and meaning in her "new" relationship with her mom. Her mom appreciated her and showed her love that she hadn't when she was well. I personally can't imagine having done what my friend did. For a loving parent, yes, I did it, for sure. But I can't imagine doing that for a cold, rejecting, or hurtful parent. I just bring this up to point out that sometimes old age does bring changes that can be game changing. 

 

 

(((hugs))) Sounds like you have a great spouse and five kids. . . I personally think you've got your hands full and will for at least a decade or two . . . and I would NOT take on caring for your mom (or looking for your dad, for that matter) at least until those kids are up and out. They come first, and you don't have time or mental space to handle your parent(s)'s needs right now. 

 

[gardenmom5]

 

 

(I BEGGED my mother to put me in therapy in high school and college - she let me go once, sat in the room with me the entire time, then never let me go back for fear I would say something about her. I wish she had let me stay!!!)

 

but if you stayed - the therapist might have realized your mother was nuts, and that would make her look bad.   if she cared about you more than her own ego, she'd have allowed you to stay.  but appearances are everything to this personality type.

 

 When the time comes, if your mother is terminally ill, for example, try to consider how you will feel after she's gone and make your decisions based on that. It may be that a farewell visit, while in no way satisfactory to you, will soothe your conscience after she's gone. 

 

 

I visited my grandmother once during the last year of her life while she was in a nursing home.  only out of obligation, usually comments from other people's expectations.  I have NO regrets I didn't visit more.  I have NO regrets I put serious limits on contact.  oh - and she's been dead for over 20 years.

 

(My only regret is *now* I know the family history questions to ask - but she's dead so I can't ask her.  sigh.)

[GAPeachie]

I have the same questions you do. It's hard. Ever watch Tangled? I feel the same way Rapunzel feels for most of the way through the movie toward Mother Gothel (the witch who has put her in the tower and pretended to be her mother). She has trapped and abused me, yet I know how I feel I should act toward a mother figure. It's conflicting to say the least.

 

So no answers, but sympathy.

 

(I BEGGED my mother to put me in therapy in high school and college - she let me go once, sat in the room with me the entire time, then never let me go back for fear I would say something about her. I wish she had let me stay!!!)

 

Yes, I've seen Repunzel and this situation is conflicting. 

 

I eventually just sat in therapy crying knowing that either something I said was going to upset my mother and I'd have to deal with her wrath afterwards or that she would find a new counselor... and most likely both.  My mother was present for ALL of my therapy appointments and doctor appointments except once when a military doctor allowed her in and then sent her out to further discuss an issue with me.  And I made one appointment for myself at the health department, one county over.    

 

So they decided back then I was depressed because I withdrew into myself and cried a lot.  Looking back, I was depressed and felt helpless.  

 

When I got old enough and stubborn enough, I turned my helplessness into making better choices for me one at a time.  Eventually, I whittled away her areas of control.  It's taken 13 years and I just made the final break.  So many years of letting her pull my puppet strings made it really hard to learn new moves.  

[gardenmom5]

Yes, I've seen Repunzel and this situation is conflicting. 

 

I eventually just sat in therapy crying knowing that either something I said was going to upset my mother and I'd have to deal with her wrath afterwards or that she would find a new counselor... and most likely both.  My mother was present for ALL of my therapy appointments and doctor appointments except once when a military doctor allowed her in and then sent her out to further discuss an issue with me.  And I made one appointment for myself at the health department, one county over.    

 

So they decided back then I was depressed because I withdrew into myself and cried a lot.  Looking back, I was depressed and felt helpless.  

 

When I got old enough and stubborn enough, I turned my helplessness into making better choices for me one at a time.  Eventually, I whittled away her areas of control.  It's taken 13 years and I just made the final break.  So many years of letting her pull my puppet strings made it really hard to learn new moves.  

 

hugs.

 

my sister was put in therapy.  I don't know if my parents were regularly present or not.  I do recall her saying she didn't know what to say - so she made  stuff up.

[GAPeachie]

She's attempting to send messages through my grandmother.  I'm not shocked at all.  She has my grandmother very upset and has told her VERY personal things about me that I'm not willing to try to explain in depth to my grandmother-- especially not over the phone. 

 

It never ends, does it? She will use anyone as her pawn.  Even a woman on oxygen.  

 

[Tsuga]

I am so sorry. I guess you just have to tell your grandmother that you hear her and she's doing wonderful and that none of this is her fault and that the grandkids are doing great.  :grouphug:  I cannot imagine... well I can, my dad did the same to his parents. Who knows how much he's recovered, and how much he's just planning to use me, but anyway. Sigh.

[kroe1]

Honoring our parents can mean many things.

 

If she raised you, spent her money on you, and changed her life in some way because of you, then, yes, you do owe her something. That does not mean you cannot have boundaries. It may mean you make sure she gets into an adequate nursing home one day and nothing more. That is your decision, not hers.