Honest question about christmas

[Mommy22alyns]

I have three 'Merry Christmas' cards hanging on my wall from atheist relatives.  They obviously don't have a problem with wishing, or being wished, a Merry Christmas.  I know that doesn't prove anything, but in my tiny world it just isn't a big deal.

 

Not only that, they will be at the family sing along singing Christmas songs and hymns, not because they believe any of it, but because they love to sing.

 

 

And that's really what we need, you know?  Just people being decent people.   :001_smile:

[Dmmetler]

I do think it gets kind of silly. I'm the moderator for the social media pages for DD's projects, and one thing she's been doing lately is posting cute photos of reptiles and amphibians dressed up/photoshopped for the holidays, so alligators in Santa hats, a crested gecko in a little sleigh pulled by plastic reindeer, a bearded dragon in front of a menorah and next to a Dredel, etc. All are hashtagged #herpyholidays (since DD's goal is to make snakes (and other less loved animals) more accepted by tween girls, she looks for cute pictures). FWIW, except for the Hanukkah ones, they've all been Santa, stockings, Christmas trees, etc.

 

She has gotten four separate messages complaining that she's not saying "Merry Christmas!" Uh, she's trying to make a herp-pun here. And, as she points out, a lot of Christians are not particularly Ok with snakes, and would probably find it sacraligious if she posted a picture of snakes curled around a manger with a baby snake inside!

[goldberry]

I do think it gets kind of silly. I'm the moderator for the social media pages for DD's projects, and one thing she's been doing lately is posting cute photos of reptiles and amphibians dressed up/photoshopped for the holidays, so alligators in Santa hats, a crested gecko in a little sleigh pulled by plastic reindeer, a bearded dragon in front of a menorah and next to a Dredel, etc. All are hashtagged #herpyholidays (since DD's goal is to make snakes (and other less loved animals) more accepted by tween girls, she looks for cute pictures). FWIW, except for the Hanukkah ones, they've all been Santa, stockings, Christmas trees, etc.

 

She has gotten four separate messages complaining that she's not saying "Merry Christmas!" Uh, she's trying to make a herp-pun here. And, as she points out, a lot of Christians are not particularly Ok with snakes, and would probably find it sacraligious if she posted a picture of snakes curled around a manger with a baby snake inside!

 

 

 

haha.... herpyholidays... very good....

 

Seems like too many people allow themselves to be manipulated by the media into manufactured outrage.

[Scarlett]

So you guys know how *some* people like to turn Christmas into a battleground? Like the whole 'no happy holidays' hoopla?

 

Where did that come from?

 

Like I'm just sitting here and I came across another post on FB about it being 'Christmas' and I'm like but has anyone said it can't be?

 

Was there ever anyone who says, 'no, we aren't going to call it Christmas anymore, including those who celebrate it'?

 

Was there ever an actual occurrence of people being bothered by others saying 'merry Christmas' as opposed to something else?

 

Idk, I'm just thinking here. Like idk why some people make it out to be such a big deal. If someone gives a holiday greeting - any holiday greeting - I just take it at face value, they're doing so with good intentions whether *I* celebrate said holiday or not. So why would I get upset by it? I would just say 'Thanks! You too!'

 

So why isn't that just how everyone thinks? If I work at a store as a cashier and tell people merry Christmas, that's not offensive. If the next cashier over doesn't celebrate Christmas but is Jewish and says happy Hanukkah, that's not offensive. If I love Halloween and say happy Halloween, that's not offensive.

 

So why is offense being created? I don't know which party started it (though I'm assuming it's the one I always see complain about this) but like, why is it even a thing? Why can't people just do what they want (in regards to this) and everyone live and let live?

 

 

Well.  :)

 

It is a new thing.  And believe me there are plenty of people who do not celebrate Christmas who have never made a  big deal out of other people celebrating it unless there is an effort to force US (the non celebrators) to be involved.  My entire life I have heard 'Merry Christmas' as a greeting and my response is 'Thank you.'  

 

Everyone is so quick to be offended.  Really gets old. 

[Laura Corin]

I do think it gets kind of silly. I'm the moderator for the social media pages for DD's projects, and one thing she's been doing lately is posting cute photos of reptiles and amphibians dressed up/photoshopped for the holidays, so alligators in Santa hats, a crested gecko in a little sleigh pulled by plastic reindeer, a bearded dragon in front of a menorah and next to a Dredel, etc. All are hashtagged #herpyholidays (since DD's goal is to make snakes (and other less loved animals) more accepted by tween girls, she looks for cute pictures). FWIW, except for the Hanukkah ones, they've all been Santa, stockings, Christmas trees, etc.

 

She has gotten four separate messages complaining that she's not saying "Merry Christmas!" Uh, she's trying to make a herp-pun here. And, as she points out, a lot of Christians are not particularly Ok with snakes, and would probably find it sacraligious if she posted a picture of snakes curled around a manger with a baby snake inside!

 

I suspect she'd get even more complaints if it was hashtag (I don't have a hash key, I just discovered) Merry Hissssssmas

[albeto.]

Everyone is so quick to be offended.  Really gets old. 

 

Well that's just the thing. It sounds like everyone is not so quick to be offended, just a few, loud people who can't get over the frustration of watching their beloved religion lose favor in society. 

[Scarlett]

I don't know when it started, or who started it, but yes, there has been anti-Christmas stuff going on, as when a local shopping center decided to have a "Great Tree" lighting...in December...instead of a Christmas tree lighting. And cities taking down Nativity scenes which have been going up every year for longer than most people can remember.

 

 

Here is there thing.  I don't celebrate Christmas because I feel it is wrong to do so.  But someone changing a greeting from 'Merry Christmas' to 'Happy Holidays'  Or Christmas tree lighting to great tree lighting...does not make it any less Christmas to me.  I don't celebrate Christmas in a country where nearly everyone does in one way or another.  And yet I've managed to never one time be offended by a PERSON who made an innocent greeting to me based upon their own beliefs.  

 

I am also not offended by people asking me how my Christmas went.  Depending on the situation (total stranger vs. someone I know who has forgotten I don't celebrate Christmas) I might say, 'oh I enjoyed time off work' or I might say, 'I don't celebrate Christmas' .  People who want to know more will ask more...either way I go about my day.  Not offended.

 

Oh wait.  My XMIL did manage to offend me all. the. time over the holidays.  Because she did this thing where she would buy a gift...let us use it, install it..whatever...and it might be in October...and then after it was well used she would say, 'oh btw, that is your Christmas gift.'  Yeah she was just a trouble maker.  But most people aren't out there trying to force me to celebrate Christmas.  So no worries.

[Scarlett]

Well that's just the thing. It sounds like everyone is not so quick to be offended, just a few, loud people who can't get over the frustration of watching their beloved religion lose favor in society. 

 

 

Interesting.  I see the same thing....a few loud people make a big ruckus....in other areas of societyt.

[Scarlett]

Well that's just the thing. It sounds like everyone is not so quick to be offended, just a few, loud people who can't get over the frustration of watching their beloved religion lose favor in society. 

 

 

Christmas is everywhere.  So how is it losing favor?  

[Guest]

Here is there thing. I don't celebrate Christmas because I feel it is wrong to do so. But someone changing a greeting from 'Merry Christmas' to 'Happy Holidays' Or Christmas tree lighting to great tree lighting...does not make it any less Christmas to me. I don't celebrate Christmas in a country where nearly everyone does in one way or another. And yet I've managed to never one time be offended by a PERSON who made an innocent greeting to me based upon their own beliefs.

 

I am also not offended by people asking me how my Christmas went. Depending on the situation (total stranger vs. someone I know who has forgotten I don't celebrate Christmas) I might say, 'oh I enjoyed time off work' or I might say, 'I don't celebrate Christmas' . People who want to know more will ask more...either way I go about my day. Not offended.

 

Oh wait. My XMIL did manage to offend me all. the. time over the holidays. Because she did this thing where she would buy a gift...let us use it, install it..whatever...and it might be in October...and then after it was well used she would say, 'oh btw, that is your Christmas gift.' Yeah she was just a trouble maker. But most people aren't out there trying to force me to celebrate Christmas. So no worries.

That made me LOL. It makes me think of Hermione in the Harry Potter books, hiding hats for the house elves to accidentally be freed when they cleaned up a mess and inadvertantly received clothing. :D

 

Plus I keep imagining MIL saying, "HA! I made you celebrate Christmas! Wow what a crafty winner I am!" *rolleyes*

[Guest]

Christmas is everywhere. So how is it losing favor?

I'm thinking that's not what Albeto means. She means Christianity losing flavor. People not wanting a nativity in the town square or whatever.

[Scarlett]

I'm thinking that's not what Albeto means. She means Christianity losing flavor. People not wanting a nativity in the town square or whatever.

 

 

Oh I see.  A few very loud people saying they don't want it in the town square.

[Scarlett]

That made me LOL. It makes me think of Hermione in the Harry Potter books, hiding hats for the house elves to accidentally be freed when they cleaned up a mess and inadvertantly received clothing. :D

 

Plus I keep imagining MIL saying, "HA! I made you celebrate Christmas! Wow what a crafty winner I am!" *rolleyes*

 

 

LOL...in hindsite it is hilarious....living it was not.  And if it had been up to me I would have told her to take her gift back and I would have never accepted another one....but there was that whole thing about being married to her son....so I did the best I could.  Every time she would say that I would say, 'Remember, I don't celebrate Christmas.  So I would prefer you not buy me a Christmas gift.'

[Tanaqui]

Oh I see.  A few very loud people saying they don't want it in the town square.

 

I'm perfectly happy having it in the town square, provided the town square allows other groups to put up their own displays, both during winter and also during other times of the year, without discrimination.

 

Funnily enough, when towns go that route, they often end up discontinuing it after one year and deciding "no more displays". It seems that a few very loud people really can't stand having a single sign up saying "Happy Holidays from the Secular Coalition" or whatever. Some people really aren't interested in sharing the space.

 

The trouble is that those of us in the minority have learned that the majority will never, ever share unless you force the issue. And if today you allow the nativity scene, then tomorrow they say "Well, we've always done it, and nobody ever complained, so tough toenails" and you start hearing presidential candidates declaring openly that members of other religions should not be allowed to immigrate or that atheists should not be allowed to run for office, and so on. And it all starts with this idea that they should get special rights, just because there's more of them than everybody else.

 

So no, no nativity scene, not unless everybody has the same chance to put up a display.

[Scarlett]

I'm perfectly happy having it in the town square, provided the town square allows other groups to put up their own displays, both during winter and also during other times of the year, without discrimination.

 

Funnily enough, when towns go that route, they often end up discontinuing it after one year and deciding "no more displays". It seems that a few very loud people really can't stand having a single sign up saying "Happy Holidays from the Secular Coalition" or whatever. Some people really aren't interested in sharing the space.

 

The trouble is that those of us in the minority have learned that the majority will never, ever share unless you force the issue. And if today you allow the nativity scene, then tomorrow they say "Well, we've always done it, and nobody ever complained, so tough toenails" and you start hearing presidential candidates declaring openly that members of other religions should not be allowed to immigrate or that atheists should not be allowed to run for office, and so on. And it all starts with this idea that they should get special rights, just because there's more of them than everybody else.

 

So no, no nativity scene, not unless everybody has the same chance to put up a display.

 

 

Interesting.  I've have zero desire to insist my own beliefs be on display just because another's is.  And I am mulling that over....

[trulycrabby]

I can't quote right now, but would definitely smile BIG if someone wished me a herpy holiday. :)

Edited December 17, 2015 by trulycrabby

[SporkUK]

We do not celebrate Christmas for several reasons. I typically don't give a holiday greeting unless given one first and then just a  'you too, and a happy new year'. 

 

I've never been bothered by Happy Christmas greetings - except from a certain relative who once spent an entire afternoon with my then one year old eldest trying to get him to say it because he thought it would be funny. The same relative then spent a few years always wrapping one child's birthday presents in wrapping paper that said it and made a big faux-drama about how it was the only paper they had and I surely couldn't mind. I didn't until they made a big deal about it every year, and pointed it out to a child who could not read and had no idea what they were talking about every year - and as the child' birthday is at the end of February and usually they didn't see us until near the end of March the excuse wore thin when used repeatedly [especially when they would ask the small child if they did anything on the 25th of December]. We stopped seeing that relative during the month of December after the first issue and just tried hard being nice when we had to -  we gave them gifts for their holidays and tried including them in our holidays and the kids did stuff for them for our holiday just being warm about it. As this relative is one of the most vocal atheists one could meet, I found his behaviour most frustrating. This relative just gets obsessed and mean when we're not doing something that they think we should even when we are very happy. We now do as little as possible with them. 

[melmichigan]

As much as I'd love to see the pictures, I don't visit my FB feed this time of the year because almost all of my older relatives, say 50+, have this argument and post endlessly about how we are taking "Christ" out of Christmas and wrecking things with Happy Holidays.  The only person who has ever objected to me wishing them a Merry Christmas (which to me is sentimental, not religious) was a woman who went on and on one day in the gas station, until her husband stepped up and asked why she cared!  She was Catholic.  :001_rolleyes:  

 

SporkUK, :grouphug: , that was an awful thing for a relative to do, no matter what their beliefs.  

Edited December 17, 2015 by melmichigan

[Joanne]

I know a lot of people who are secular/atheist and none of them give two hoots if they are wished Merry Christmas. 

 

So the 'offence' and the 'war' didn't come from our side of the pond :)

 

Sadie,

 

In the Texas side of the pond, I do not know ONE person who is offended by any of it who is not a conservative Christian.

 

I also know lots of secular or other faith types and not one would be offended by a Merry Christmas. Some are offended by the **assumption** of Christmas celebrations - but that is an extention of Christian overculture that is present all year long.

 

I do know more than a dozen (conservative) Christians who are offended by Happy Holidays.

 

I also see the most extreme "stories" and "anecdotes" by people who happen to be conservative Christian re: de-Christianization of the U.S.

 

I think it's a case of the majority rule dynamic and lack of introspection coupled with Christian culture in which exclusivity and "the right way of faith" being so vehemently defended.

 

I had a discussion today - with staff at a ***secular school***  aft4er I said I'd wait to offer my "Happy Holidays" until tomorrow, because the person would be back tomorrow. Endured a lecture from (conservative Christian) about how she "doesn't do Happy Holidays." Sigh.

 

The war - and the issue - is largely made up and non existent. It's people assuming ill intent, assuming rightness of being, and dishonoring tolerance and diversity. No one is trying to take Christ out of Christmas. People are just trying to do what Christ would have done - include everyone in a season of good will, care, compassion, love, and connection.

 

[zoobie]

It sounds to me like they demand xmas to be the only holiday recognized this month. Surely there's another story to this.

That's pretty much it. Several people are including the claim in stump speeches that stores and everywhere will only say "Merry Christmas" if s/he is elected President of the US. Because freedom. And 'Murica! :rofl:

Edited December 17, 2015 by zoobie

[Tanaqui]

Interesting.  I've have zero desire to insist my own beliefs be on display just because another's is.  And I am mulling that over....

 

It's not really about the display. It's about the message it sends. That message is not "Merry Christmas!" but "This is a Christian place, and if you're not Christian, you don't belong."

 

And I can prove it. Every single time this issue comes up - with the nativity scenes, or the decalog in courthouses, or with crosses in public space, or coerced prayer before school events or government activities - people line up to say "This is a Christian country, and if you don't like it you should leave". They say this! Aloud! To the press! And that's the least of it. It's not unheard of for plaintiffs in these cases to have threats against them, and all sorts of vile comments made about them. You simply have to google to find myriad examples. Consider Jessica Ahlquist.

 

And why do these people do that? Because they're used to seeing their symbols and their ideas respected all over the place, and have grown comfortable with the idea that that's as it should be, that all ideas are equal but theirs are more equal than others. (You also see the phenomenon of hate crimes against religious minorities, such as arson or vandalism of religious space or the assault or murder of people who wear religious garb in public. This is related.)

 

And it starts with these little things.

 

So, again, it's not about the nativity scene. It's about the fact that some people feel entitled to have the government promote their religion on the public dime.  And so long as it keeps happening, they're going to keep feeling that this is the way it should be. And it shouldn't.

[albeto.]

Interesting.  I've have zero desire to insist my own beliefs be on display just because another's is.  And I am mulling that over....

 

In addition to what Tanaqui suggests, I would add that the take-away issue here isn't about what you would or wouldn't do as a person. That really misses the point. The point is about demanding or challenging an unjustified privilege without concern for the law or the rights of all citizens. That you wouldn't engage in an unjustified privilege is hardly noble (or even notable), most especially when that privilege isn't a part of your religious culture.

[Ravin]

I'm not Christian and it doesn't bother me if people say "Merry Christmas" to me at all. I will also take any other holiday greetings people wish to direct my way!

 

I am a bit curious to see what would happen if I wished everyone I met "Eid Mubarak" on our next holiday, but I'm nervous in today's climate. Maybe I should try it, though, "for science" of course. ;)

I'm one of those goofball people who wanted to know when Eid was so I could do this while working retail at Walmart. But the Muslims I worked with kept to themselves, and never put their stuff in other peoples' faces, including holidays.

[Denise in Florida]

Who argues that saying "happy holidays" is offensive?

 

:huh:

 

Sadly there are people who become offended because "happy holidays' is pc and anti-christian.  It puzzles me too.  

 

But I have heard people say they will never shop at xyz again because the clerk said 'happy holidays' instead of 'merry Christmas'.

 

 

They then usually go on to explain the War on Christmas and the War on Christians. 

 

sigh

[Aelwydd]

I don't know when it started, or who started it, but yes, there has been anti-Christmas stuff going on, as when a local shopping center decided to have a "Great Tree" lighting...in December...instead of a Christmas tree lighting. And cities taking down Nativity scenes which have been going up every year for longer than most people can remember.

 

If it was a shopping center, they likely did it as a ploy to appeal to more groups of shoppers, i.e., Jewish, Buddhist, Hindi, Muslim, secular/ non-theist, etc. In that respect, it's not so much "anti-Christmas" but more of a "Christmas-plus-x-y-z" thing to increase their customer base.  The "Great Tree" lighting is probably their lame marketing scheme to be more universal. 

 

To me, being universal isn't "against" Christmas, but I think a "Great Tree" lighting is one of the more transparent examples of crass commercialism.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Aelwydd

[Scarlett]

In addition to what Tanaqui suggests, I would add that the take-away issue here isn't about what you would or wouldn't do as a person. That really misses the point. The point is about demanding or challenging an unjustified privilege without concern for the law or the rights of all citizens. That you wouldn't engage in an unjustified privilege is hardly noble (or even notable), most especially when that privilege isn't a part of your religious culture.

I am a little hung up on the phrase unjustified privilege . Some privilege is justified?

[zoobie]

I am a little hung up on the phrase unjustified privilege . Some privilege is justified?

Brain mush. Read Pam in CT's example down thread. :P

Edited December 17, 2015 by zoobie

[Daria]

It varies so much, though.

I have a friend who is Jewish who regards 'Happy Holidays' as coding for 'Merry Christmas' and is equally offended by either one. 

 

The other thing is that Christmas is not per se an utterly religious holiday.  There are tons of secular aspects to it that a lot of people who are not religious or believing at all  or not identifying with Christianity in any way still celebrate for fun.  It's almost to the point in the US where Christmas is secular in the same way as (formerly St.) Valentine's Day is.  It's just awkward all around. 

 

What I hate, and the only thing that actually does offend me as a Christian, is when people have a supposedly inclusive holiday celebration in which most songs off all faith holidays including secular Christmas ones are sung 'straight', except that only parodies of sacred Christian songs are sung.  (Yes this actually was customary in one group I was in.)  So we sang Jingle Bells and other nonChristian Christmas songs and Chanukah and Solstice songs straight, but O Come All Ye Faithful was rewritten sarcastically.  Not cool.

 

Other than that, I'm easy.  I'm good with whatever. 

 

I don't think that sarcastic versions are fine at all, but I've never been at the type of presentation you describe and heard an Chanukah song or a Solstice song that had religious content en par with "Oh come let us adore him" or other verses from traditional Christmas music.  I've heard songs about dreidels, which are about as religious as songs about Christmas trees, or songs that reference lighting a menorah or dancing, but not songs that actually reference Jewish religious beliefs.  

[Tanaqui]

I am a little hung up on the phrase unjustified privilege . Some privilege is justified?

 

Sure. Some jobs require a degree. Applying for those jobs is a privilege that is justified, because you went to school and got the degree.

 

My older kiddo can travel on the train alone, her sister can travel on the train with her sister. That's a justified privilege, because the older kiddo, by virtue of being older, is assumed to be more responsible and also less likely to provoke calls to child services. When her sister is the same age, then barring any sudden outbreak of extreme irresponsibility, she'll have the same privilege. (We reserve the right to say "No, not this year" if it turns out that we feel it wouldn't be safe for her. I don't think that will happen, but we'll see.)

 

I get to set the kids' bedtimes, they don't get to set mine. This is a justified privilege because I'm the adult and it's assumed I'm the responsible party. I AM the responsible party!

 

And so on.

 

They then usually go on to explain the War on Christmas and the War on Christians.

 

You know, quite aside from what I said before, this really upsets me. There are actual Christians who are actually dying for their faith right now. There are others who worship in fear and in secret because it would be dangerous to do so openly.

 

These people have no idea what persecution is, and it's actually offensive for them to claim they do.

 

I don't think that sarcastic versions are fine at all, but I've never been at the type of presentation you describe and heard an Chanukah song or a Solstice song that had religious content en par with "Oh come let us adore him" or other verses from traditional Christmas music.  I've heard songs about dreidels, which are about as religious as songs about Christmas trees, or songs that reference lighting a menorah or dancing, but not songs that actually reference Jewish religious beliefs.

 

I've never heard any sarcastic Christmas songs at all outside of "Jingle bells, Batman smells", and I've surely never heard any sarcastic songs at a winter concert. I'd be very concerned to go to a concert and hear that, especially if it wasn't applied to Hanukkah songs or generically "winter" songs.

 

Like you, I've heard the less religious Hanukkah songs paired with actual Christmas carols with Jesus in them. Well, Hanukkah is a less important holiday on the Jewish calendar than Christmas is to Christians, isn't it? I can see how it shakes out that way, but it does sometimes make me feel uncomfortable, even as somebody who frankly loves Christmas carols and will sing them all the way through, all 96 verses nobody else knows!

Edited December 17, 2015 by Tanaqui

[Danestress]

If someone wished me a "Happy Hanukkah" I would be amused and would assume the person thought I was Jewish.  I would not be offended.  If thirty people a day wished me a "Happy Hanukkah" I would start to find it annoying. I wouldn't post on facebook about it, lol, but it would get tiresome. If thirty people a day wished me "Happy Hanukkah" everyday for six weeks, I think I might get snippy here and there- mostly because I would not know how to respond.  I could say, "Happy Hanukkah" back, but I would feel like I was participating in making questionable assumptions, and it would get very trying.

 

I imagine non-Christians must get very tired of the relentless, "Merry Christmas" thing.  

 

I am a Christian, and every once in a while, I am afraid that I am going to have a breakdown in public and start screaming at someone to stop playing crappy Christmas music and incessantly ringing bells.  

[Scarlett]

Sure. Some jobs require a degree. Applying for those jobs is a privilege that is justified, because you went to school and got the degree.

 

My older kiddo can travel on the train alone, her sister can travel on the train with her sister. That's a justified privilege, because the older kiddo, by virtue of being older, is assumed to be more responsible and also less likely to provoke calls to child services. When her sister is the same age, then barring any sudden outbreak of extreme irresponsibility, she'll have the same privilege. (We reserve the right to say "No, not this year" if it turns out that we feel it wouldn't be safe for her. I don't think that will happen, but we'll see.)

 

I get to set the kids' bedtimes, they don't get to set mine. This is a justified privilege because I'm the adult and it's assumed I'm the responsible party. I AM the responsible party!

 

And so on.

 

 

You know, quite aside from what I said before, this really upsets me. There are actual Christians who are actually dying for their faith right now. There are others who worship in fear and in secret because it would be dangerous to do so openly.

 

These people have no idea what persecution is, and it's actually offensive for them to claim they do.

Interesting. I would say, in general, those are rights not justified privileges...privilege carries a different tone to me.

[Tanaqui]

If someone wished me a "Happy Hanukkah" I would be amused and would assume the person thought I was Jewish.

 

The last person to wish me a Happy Hanukkah did think I was Jewish. It was a guy from Chabad. I just thanked him for the greetings and told him I wasn't. I wouldn't normally bother to be very clear on the subject, as it seems rude to reply to a greeting with "I DO NOT SHARE YOUR RELIGION!", but, you know, Chabad. Though I suppose if I'd lied I could've gotten a free menorah out of it....

[albeto.]

Interesting. I would say, in general, those are rights not justified privileges...privilege carries a different tone to me.

 

What does privilege mean to you?

[aggieamy]

Who is this newscaster that is talking about the war on Christmas that everyone seems to know and I don't?  Can we not say his name?  Is it Voldemort?  Newscaster-who-can't-be-named?

[SeaConquest]

The last person to wish me a Happy Hanukkah did think I was Jewish. It was a guy from Chabad. I just thanked him for the greetings and told him I wasn't. I wouldn't normally bother to be very clear on the subject, as it seems rude to reply to a greeting with "I DO NOT SHARE YOUR RELIGION!", but, you know, Chabad. Though I suppose if I'd lied I could've gotten a free menorah out of it....

 

If you were male and Jewish, you could have gone for a ride on the mitzvah mobile and learned how to put on tefillin. :)

 

http://crownheights.info/assets/media/new%20london%20tank/1.jpg

[Scarlett]

What does privilege mean to you?

Entitlement.

 

Elitism.

[Tanaqui]

Entitlement.

 

Elitism.

 

People who feel they are entitled to privileges that others don't get often suffer from elitism, but that's not, I think, the primary meaning of the word for most people.

 

But thank goodness we all understand each other now :) Your comment makes *much* more sense with this context.

 

[Seeking Squirrels]

I said Happy Holidays half the time when I identified as christian and used it on photo printed christmas cards when that was the one I liked the best. I honestly had no clue at the time that it was potentially controversial. And I sometimes use Merry Christmas now as an atheist. I don't see why it has to matter what someone says, if the intent behind it is just to wish someone well or pass along hopes that they have a good time. I don't typically go out of my way to say anything one way or the other unless it's said to me first (just doesn't cross my mind I suppose). If it's said to me, I'll likely respond with whatever they said. If they say Merry Christmas, I'll probably say Merry Christmas in return. If I were to say it first, I would say Happy Holidays if I don't know the person and what they may or may not celebrate.

 

I see the bs about it on fb all the time and just try to keep my mouth shut because DH doesn't want me to make waves where his family can see. :/

[MistyMountain]

I said Happy Holidays to people when I was working in a grocery store nearly 20 years ago before there were lots of references to the "War on Christmas" I said Happy Holidays because I lived in a very diverse area with a sizeable population of Jewish and Muslim people who did not celebrate Christmas and if I do not know someone I did not know if they celebrated Christmas. I know there are people who do not celebrate any holidays but by saying Merry Christmas I included more people. If I know someone celebrates Christmas I will say Merry Christmas. I don't think people are offended by Merry Christmas but to someone who does not celebrate it can be a little awkward and has no meaning to them. If someone says Merry Christmas I have no problem with it but I do not get why find Happy Holidays so offensive.

Edited December 17, 2015 by MistyMountain

[Peach]

Happy Holidays was common when I was growing up - as a combined  wish for December and the new year and no one thought anything of it. Even things like 'seasons' greetings' were common on christmas cards and again, it was normal. I agree with the above though, these days it seems some groups/people look for things to get offended about. I often wish they would put all that energy into more productive areas. 

[bettyandbob]

The intent of the greeting is pleasant. I don't understand people who take offense at the wording. I find people who take offense offensive no matter what the pleasant greeting.

 

I find myself saying Happy New Year most of the time. I have three jobs that take seasonal breaks. I started saying this as I began saying good bye to patrons last week at one job I finished Friday. I won't see them again until January. I live in a culturally diverse, high immigrant community. This is how I include everyone in a friendly manner. People who consciously don't want to be generally pleasant and inclusive are purposely exclusive and rude.

[creekland]

The more I read about people who get upset at these sorts of things ("my way or I'll get insulted") the more I understand why a high percentage of people feel stressed out with life.

[nobeatenpath]

We have never celebrated Christmas. Living in Australia or the UK (where Christmas is huge, almost everyone celebrates it, and it is all about the presents) I was never worried by the 'Merry Xmas' greetings, cards, always went to the end of year staff Xmas parties etc.*

Germany we found Xmas to be a lot more traditional, but again really nice and no offence at being greeted for the season.

 

And it is always funny that so many different Christian groups have problems with Christmas. Some think that people should say Merry Christmas, not Happy Holidays. Some think it is too commercial and we are 'forgetting the reason for the season' (let's just forget the whole point that Christmas is coopting a lot of non-Christian festivals ...) And I know Christians who refuse to celebrate it because it has become so corrupted. And then many Orthodox Christians believe Christmas is not that big a deal because that is Easter, don't you know (which actually makes more sense).

 

 

We now live in Turkey. When it is a bayram (like Eid) we are greeted with  mübarek olsun or something along those lines, and we make sure to say it back to people. We are not Muslims, but culturally it is a nice thing to do. Because we are Westerners we have some Turks already wishing us Happy Christmas/Happy Noel and we take it in the spirit it is intended - people being polite and nice.

 

 

 

* A lot of people would take us to task for denying our child Xmas, but that is a different rant.

[Bluegoat]

So you guys know how *some* people like to turn Christmas into a battleground? Like the whole 'no happy holidays' hoopla?

 

Where did that come from?

 

Like I'm just sitting here and I came across another post on FB about it being 'Christmas' and I'm like but has anyone said it can't be?

 

Was there ever anyone who says, 'no, we aren't going to call it Christmas anymore, including those who celebrate it'?

 

Was there ever an actual occurrence of people being bothered by others saying 'merry Christmas' as opposed to something else?

 

Idk, I'm just thinking here. Like idk why some people make it out to be such a big deal. If someone gives a holiday greeting - any holiday greeting - I just take it at face value, they're doing so with good intentions whether *I* celebrate said holiday or not. So why would I get upset by it? I would just say 'Thanks! You too!'

 

So why isn't that just how everyone thinks? If I work at a store as a cashier and tell people merry Christmas, that's not offensive. If the next cashier over doesn't celebrate Christmas but is Jewish and says happy Hanukkah, that's not offensive. If I love Halloween and say happy Halloween, that's not offensive.

 

So why is offense being created? I don't know which party started it (though I'm assuming it's the one I always see complain about this) but like, why is it even a thing? Why can't people just do what they want (in regards to this) and everyone live and let live?

 

 

So, I think I tend to agree with you.  I don't mind whatever greeting people give to me, and I give them the greeting I would prefer.  I might sometimes wish someone a happy whatever their tradition is, if I know them.

 

I also quite like to participate in different cultural traditions if I am in different places, and its appropriate.  I tend to assume other people like to as well.

 

I think the view that this is offensive came around largely in more institutional settings, as a way of (mistakenly IMO) maintaining a separation of church and state, and because some people felt that it was a kind of colonialism to have some celebrations more dominant than others.

 

it seems to have transferred over in the minds of some to a personal issue as well, that any outward sign of belonging to a particular tradition is potentially offensive to others.

[J-rap]

I've personally never known anyone who is bothered by one form of greeting or another.  The majority of people I know celebrate Christmas, as either a Christian or just as a secular holiday, and Merry Christmas can be appropriate for both.  (Merry Christmas has come to be a generic secular greeting for many people.)  If people want to wish me Happy Hanukkah or any other greeting based on a celebration that is important to them, I don't mind at all;  in fact, I feel pleased that they want to share with me in that split moment.  For my Jewish friends, I do get special Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings cards.

 

That whole Starbucks thing was weird, because I don't think Starbucks ever had cups that said "Merry Christmas," and who cares what a paper coffee cup even says, for goodness sake!  Also, I haven't known of a single person in real life who was really offended by that, except for one or two people who heard an exaggerated version of it.

 

I think the media usually makes a way bigger deal of some of these things than they really are, and then some people for whatever reason latch onto that and run.

 

I 

[BlsdMama]

So you guys know how *some* people like to turn Christmas into a battleground? Like the whole 'no happy holidays' hoopla?

 

Where did that come from?

 

Like I'm just sitting here and I came across another post on FB about it being 'Christmas' and I'm like but has anyone said it can't be?

 

Was there ever anyone who says, 'no, we aren't going to call it Christmas anymore, including those who celebrate it'?

 

Was there ever an actual occurrence of people being bothered by others saying 'merry Christmas' as opposed to something else?

 

Idk, I'm just thinking here. Like idk why some people make it out to be such a big deal. If someone gives a holiday greeting - any holiday greeting - I just take it at face value, they're doing so with good intentions whether *I* celebrate said holiday or not. So why would I get upset by it? I would just say 'Thanks! You too!'

 

So why isn't that just how everyone thinks? If I work at a store as a cashier and tell people merry Christmas, that's not offensive. If the next cashier over doesn't celebrate Christmas but is Jewish and says happy Hanukkah, that's not offensive. If I love Halloween and say happy Halloween, that's not offensive.

 

So why is offense being created? I don't know which party started it (though I'm assuming it's the one I always see complain about this) but like, why is it even a thing? Why can't people just do what they want (in regards to this) and everyone live and let live?

 

 

Totally valid question.  

 

I admit I despise Santa.  And I resent having to compete with two types of Christmas - one that is pure commercialism and consumerism and one that is based on celebrating the birth of Christ.  It's a little exhausting.

 

But, no, I'm not offended by someone saying "Happy Holidays" or "Happy Hannukah." 

[Carrie12345]

The entire thing is just. so. stupid!

 

If I'm interacting with people of unknown celebration status, Happy Holidays conveys my overall sentiment with ZERO added effort on my part.  How is this a problem?  What does this cost me?

 

And yet, I see people on FB - not random strangers, actual relatives and people who are in my real life - post about the tragedy of inclusion. @@

[Serenade]

 

I've even felt odd when substitute teaching at the elementary schools because there is so much Christmas stuff going on in the rooms and all other holidays in December are ignored.

 

When my DS was in public school, it was the complete opposite, and that was about 10 years ago now.  Everything was Hanukkah and Kwanzai.  There was pretty much no Christmas. And I live in the South, so even more surprising. 

[Serenade]

 

I think the media usually makes a way bigger deal of some of these things than they really are, and then some people for whatever reason latch onto that and run.

 

I 

 

 

Yes to this.

[Bluegoat]

I'm perfectly happy having it in the town square, provided the town square allows other groups to put up their own displays, both during winter and also during other times of the year, without discrimination.

 

Funnily enough, when towns go that route, they often end up discontinuing it after one year and deciding "no more displays". It seems that a few very loud people really can't stand having a single sign up saying "Happy Holidays from the Secular Coalition" or whatever. Some people really aren't interested in sharing the space.

 

The trouble is that those of us in the minority have learned that the majority will never, ever share unless you force the issue. And if today you allow the nativity scene, then tomorrow they say "Well, we've always done it, and nobody ever complained, so tough toenails" and you start hearing presidential candidates declaring openly that members of other religions should not be allowed to immigrate or that atheists should not be allowed to run for office, and so on. And it all starts with this idea that they should get special rights, just because there's more of them than everybody else.

 

So no, no nativity scene, not unless everybody has the same chance to put up a display.

 

I don't know.  All kinds of groups put up displays here, at various times of year.  Generally it is groups that have enough presence that they actually are, in fact, a group.  And presumably they want to have some sense of it being a public, not just private celebration.  So there are religious groups here that don't do anything, because they don't see themselves as looking for that kind of community aspect of their celebrations.

 

The problem I have with some groups in some places (like the festivus pole guys) is that they are not in fact honestly having a cultural or religious celebration that they are inviting people in some way to participate in.  It's more of an "up yours" to others.  I don't think that's a particularly appropriate use of public space, and its just a kind of shitty attitude to other people.  That is I think a good example of a bad faith way of saying "happy holidays" as if it is a blow to people who have a more specific tradition, rather than just a friendly well-wish.

 

I do think that if people take up an open invitation to public displays in that kind of spirit, its no wonder that the displays generally will go by the wayside.

 

I also don't think people should get their knickers in a twist when various locations do have culturally dominant types of celebrations.  I think its pretty natural that the cultural observances in a place reflect the historical origins and settlement patterns of the place.  I'm in a good sized city so there are a few different types of public celebrations, and even with ones like Christmas there are a few cultural expressions.  If I went to a bigger city, I might see more.  If I go to my dad's village, I'll only see one.  This is precisely what I expect to see if I travel to Germany, or India, or wherever - different places will have different histories, and a lot of people will celebrate in the tradition they come from and that will tend to influence the character of the larger community.