NOOOOOO!

[Orthodox6]

/

[Word Nerd]

Again, put yourself in her shoes. Your children have been taken and you need to do xyz to get them back. Xyz costs money. There is money but it must be used for a grooming business. Sorry, no, sue me later, I'm getting my kids back ASAP, no matter what! How does a mother sleep at night when she doesn't know where her children are?? How could anything else be a priority?!?

 

Having a real source of income in place is part of what needs to be done to get the kids back, no? By all appearances, they've already spent most of that money. It's not like they suddenly decided to open a dog grooming business after having their kids removed. I think it's a positive step (gasp!) that Nicole is actually following through on a plan that was already well underway when this happened. 

[MrsWeasley]

Do we have any idea of when/why/ or how old the daughter that ran away was?  I've seen it mentioned that it happened, but no info about it. 

 

Ran away beause she didn't want to eat vegetables one night? (My then second grader decided he had had enough veggies for a lifetime so this was his plan.)   That is one thing. 

 

Ran away because of the family, or the situation that is another. 

 

How long was she gone? Was she hiding in the woods?

 

Where is the information that one of the daughters ran away came from?

[FaithManor]

Having a real source of income in place is part of what needs to be done to get the kids back, no? By all appearances, they've already spent most of that money. It's not like they suddenly decided to open a dog grooming business after having their kids removed. I think it's a positive step (gasp!) that Nicole is actually following through on a plan that was already well underway when this happened. 

Wordnerd, it is hard to say since we don't know what the court ordered list of priorities in order to get the kids back is. It is entirely possible that from the court's perspective this is not a priority because they would qualify for all kinds of assistance at their income level. The court is likely concerned with using the GoFundMe money to find a rental home, and doesn't give two hoots about Capistan.

 

It has been speculated that they do not own the land. Were I the landlord holding the lease, these people would not be allowed to build anything else on the land and would be evicted. The liability to the owner is HUGE! If they own it but owe back taxes, it still might end up being lost in the court system. It does not seem feasible for them to continue on this property.

[Xuzi]

It looks like they're finally soliciting for help on their FB page to do actual cleaning on the property.

[mom2scouts]

Their supporters are now calling the neighbor a "selfish old lady" who wouldn't even share water with thirsty children.  This whole story is such a train wreck.

[Word Nerd]

Wordnerd, it is hard to say since we don't know what the court ordered list of priorities in order to get the kids back is. It is entirely possible that from the court's perspective this is not a priority because they would qualify for all kinds of assistance at their income level. The court is likely concerned with using the GoFundMe money to find a rental home, and doesn't give two hoots about Capistan.

 

It has been speculated that they do not own the land. Were I the landlord holding the lease, these people would not be allowed to build anything else on the land and would be evicted. The liability to the owner is HUGE! If they own it but owe back taxes, it still might end up being lost in the court system. It does not seem feasible for them to continue on this property.

 

I agree completely that we don't know what the court ordered, but neither do we know what they have done to improve their living situation. There's quite a lot of speculation in this thread, and I don't personally think it's outlandish to suppose that having a stable income source might be part of the process (to me that's a much less outlandish speculation than suggesting they don't care at all about their kids or getting them back, as other posters have done).

 

Finding a house to rent would seem like the most reasonable option, but it would be difficult for such a large family even if they hadn't brought so much public attention to themselves. Under the circumstances, I sure as heck wouldn't rent any property to this family unless I didn't care if it were destroyed.

[Renthead Mommy]

Where is the information that one of the daughters ran away came from?

 

 

In browsing her site, I saw her mention it in passing as it had happened previously, but that wasn't what they were talking about, but I wasn't searching her whole site for it.  I also saw it mentioned a few times on Nasty Little Homestead site, but no one said why or how old she was.

[gardenmom5]

Their supporters are now calling the neighbor a "selfish old lady" who wouldn't even share water with thirsty children. This whole story is such a train wreck.

Wait - Joe was threatening an old woman? Just gets better and better.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It looks like they're finally soliciting for help on their FB page to do actual cleaning on the property.

I'm glad.  I'm going to speculate (since that is all anyone can do since we aren't privy to what went on in a closed court setting) that they finally realized that they would actually have to improve the living areas in order to get the children back.  I wonder how many of their supporters will actually help them on this work day?  

[idnib]

Wait - Joe was threatening an old woman? Just gets better and better.

 

I think this is the same woman as the neighbor from whom he was stealing water.

[kwg]

I havent read all the replies but so this may have been said. But she isnt being charged with anything?  So she has potentially ruined 10 little lives and could keep on having children.  

[Mergath]

I'm glad. I'm going to speculate (since that is all anyone can do since we aren't privy to what went on in a closed court setting) that they finally realized that they would actually have to improve the living areas in order to get the children back. I wonder how many of their supporters will actually help them on this work day?

 

I'm guessing not many people are going to show up. It seems like everyone who knows them in real life wants nothing to do with them.

 

I'm also curious to see if they actually pitch in and do some of the work themselves, or if they just kick back and command their minions.

[Orthodox6]

Their supporters are now calling the neighbor a "selfish old lady" who wouldn't even share water with thirsty children.  This whole story is such a train wreck.

 

:confused1:    :nopity:    :confused:

[gardenmom5]

I think this is the same woman as the neighbor from whom he was stealing water.

 

I hadn't read it was an older woman from whom he was stealing the water.

 

if Nicole has any sense - she will dump this man and get lots of therapy.  I don't think she's too far gone to benefit from that.   seems her life started to go downhill when she hooked up with him, and it just gets worse every year.

[Library Momma]

I'm confused about a lot of things with this family, but I really don't understand how they can just build a structure or make any changes to a property without all sorts of outside approval and permits.  If I were to build even a shed I would need the inland wetlands authority to sign off as well as planning and zoning.  If it were a dwelling to live in I would also need the building inspector to make multiple visits and then I would need a certificate of occupancy before anyone could actually move in.  

[Heather in VA]

Their supporters are now calling the neighbor a "selfish old lady" who wouldn't even share water with thirsty children.  This whole story is such a train wreck.

 

Their supporters comments are absolutely terrifying. So many comments about how wonderful it would be to live like that. Do people really think there is nothing wrong with that environment or are they interpreting the pictures differently than we are?

[FaithManor]

I havent read all the replies but so this may have been said. But she isnt being charged with anything?  So she has potentially ruined 10 little lives and could keep on having children.  

These investigations always take a while as the facts are gathered, witnesses are interviewed, psychologists and therapists make their reports on the children, etc. The DA won't be in any rush because he/she will want as many facts as possible. I suspect that when it is all said and done, unless the laws in Kentucky are radically different from those in Michigan, she will be charged with at least reckless endangerment which usually comes with a mandatory jail term though due to being pregnant and what not could possibly be suspended by a merciful job in lieu of something else like court ordered parenting classes, community service, mental health therapy, etc. I think the dad will be charged with the same as well as something related to threatening the neighbor plus stealing water, and then also possible is medical neglect charges as well as abuse particularly in the case of the boy with 3rd degree burns that were not treated from attempting to stoke a fire with gasoline.

 

This is just going to take some time.

[Outdoorsy Type]

Their supporters are now calling the neighbor a "selfish old lady" who wouldn't even share water with thirsty children. This whole story is such a train wreck.

 

You forgot the part where the supporter said the neighbor will "probably claim rape, next. " lovely people.

[Orthodox6]

I'm confused about a lot of things with this family, but I really don't understand how they can just build a structure or make any changes to a property without all sorts of outside approval and permits.  If I were to build even a shed I would need the inland wetlands authority to sign off as well as planning and zoning.  If it were a dwelling to live in I would also need the building inspector to make multiple visits and then I would need a certificate of occupancy before anyone could actually move in.  

 

How rural is Breckinridge, KY?  Regulations likely are not so strict as they are for urban sites. -- [ ? ]

[Changed]

Their supporters comments are absolutely terrifying. So many comments about how wonderful it would be to live like that. Do people really think there is nothing wrong with that environment or are they interpreting the pictures differently than we are?

The mutual friend that I have thinks they are good parents, who live in a "clean, organized" home. I really don't get it.

[Heather in VA]

How rural is Breckinridge, KY?  Regulations likely are not so strict as they are for urban sites. -- [ ? ]

 

This seems probable. I would think if the regulations were too strict that structure would just be condemned.

[Heather in VA]

The mutual friend that I have thinks they are good parents, who live in a "clean, organized" home. I really don't get it.

 

I don't get it either. I'm sure some negative things we are hearing aren't true. The internet is like that. But even if I'd never read anything but what Nicole herself posts and seen her own pictures I would be just as horrified.  I see nothing clean or organized. 

[Mergath]

The mutual friend that I have thinks they are good parents, who live in a "clean, organized" home. I really don't get it.

No offense, but I'd hate to see the mutual friend's house if she thinks that's good parenting and housekeeping.

[LizzyBee]

I'm curious what the requirements for reunification would be. I've had friends who did foster care, so I kind of know what those bio parents had to do to get their kids back but this case is so strange with the "homestead" issue. I mean I think they'd require a separate bed for each child, and an actual house of some sort.

 

IME, (not in KY), bio kids are allowed to share beds. When we were considering fostering, the foster kids had to each have their own beds, but our bio kids did not.

[Heather in VA]

I'm guessing not many people are going to show up. It seems like everyone who knows them in real life wants nothing to do with them.

 

I'm also curious to see if they actually pitch in and do some of the work themselves, or if they just kick back and command their minions.

 

I would hope at least Joe would be there. Nicole says on her pet grooming FB page that she is taking grooming appointments starting tomorrow so she might not be available. If they split the work, Nicole working at the pet grooming and Joe working on the homestead, they could start making some progress. Praying that is the case.

[Mergath]

I would hope at least Joe would be there. Nicole says on her pet grooming FB page that she is taking grooming appointments starting tomorrow so she might not be available. If they split the work, Nicole working at the pet grooming and Joe working on the homestead, they could start making some progress. Praying that is the case.

From what I've read about his, er, work ethic, I'm not holding my breath.

[Forget-Me-Not]

This seems probable. I would think if the regulations were too strict that structure would just be condemned.

 

I can't imagine this would pass any sort of permit or inspection process (or a bad winter storm for that matter).  It looks like they're making it up as they go.  Cinder blocks with no apparent mortar?  A pallet floor?  They didn't even bother to level the ground or the structure. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/790726694356144/photos/pb.790726694356144.-2207520000.1432068689./790873991008081/?type=3&theater

[FaithManor]

I can't imagine this would pass any sort of permit or inspection process (or a bad winter storm for that matter).  It looks like they're making it up as they go.  Cinder blocks with no apparent mortar?  A pallet floor?  They didn't even bother to level the ground or the structure. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/790726694356144/photos/pb.790726694356144.-2207520000.1432068689./790873991008081/?type=3&theater

On my township, thought the rules are loose, they aren't THAT loose. They would not be allowed to live in that, and frankly I completely agree with the building codes. That place looks like the wolf could huff, and puff, and blow the "house" down!

[Katy]

Again, put yourself in her shoes. Your children have been taken and you need to do xyz to get them back. Xyz costs money. There is money but it must be used for a grooming business. Sorry, no, sue me later, I'm getting my kids back ASAP, no matter what! How does a mother sleep at night when she doesn't know where her children are?? How could anything else be a priority?!?

 

Well, I'm sure if you were in her shoes you never would have let it get that far in the first place.  You would have gotten a job to pay the lease on the shed so your family wouldn't be homeless.  You wouldn't have stayed with a man who reportedly stole your money to pay for his meth habit instead of paying your own rent. You would have picked up every nail on the ground, salvaged wood and built a cabin, even dug an outhouse yourself so your children would have had a safe home by 1850's standards, if not by today's.  She's not making the decisions of a loving and rational mother, she's making the decisions of a woman who cares about absolutely nothing but keeping a worthless man.

 

here's a claim from the article:

On Nicole Naugler's Facebook page, her son Jacob posted a poem Saturday

 

 

riiiiggghhhttt.  her son had access to a computer to go onto his mother's fb page at his foster family's house while still in an evaluation of needs stage.  I call BS.

 

 

It's possible he wrote it for her & gave it to her at their visit.

 

This Pace person is said to have replaced Joe's name on the original GoFundMe request. Someone has also posted on the opposing site that Pace's paypal account is under FBI review. I have no idea how she knows that though, or if it's true. There's some real detectives with no lives on that opposing site, lol!

 

It's also possible Pace is a fake identity they were using to hide assets from the IRS & other people they owed money to.

[Renai]

 

 

 

It's also possible Pace is a fake identity they were using to hide assets from the IRS & other people they owed money to.

 

This has been suggested on the opposing fb page.

[Katy]

This has been suggested on the opposing fb page.

 

Ahh, I hadn't read that much of that page.  It seems a little...  like  bullying to me.

[Corraleno]

Pace Ellsworth is a real person. From things he was saying on the Capistan page, I think that he and a few of the other Capistan "investors" were in some online LDS "anarcho-capitalist" group, and that's where they know the Nauglers from. He and the other investors seem to have some very naive ideals about creating this alternative economy, based on bitcoin, where "anarcho-capitalists" can help each other out. I don't think he has a clue how the Nauglers really lived or what their financial history was (bankruptcy, foreclosure, back taxes and child support owed, Joe's arrests, etc.). He kept saying that this was a great investment because Nicole is "the best there is" at dog grooming, lol.

[Rivka]

From one of their FB supporters: "They get federal money for each adoption so they take as many kids as they can. The better they're raised, they more they want them. Which would you be more likely to adopt? The child who was well raised and healthy or the crack baby who is going to require lots of medical help and therapy?"

 

Now there's a perfect conspiracy theory. Your kids were taken by CPS? That PROVES you were doing an excellent job of parenting!

[Renai]

It looks like they're finally soliciting for help on their FB page to do actual cleaning on the property.

 

Besides it being good that maybe they'll get help cleaning things up, there's another side. Those that do come out will the reality of it all and report back (unless the Nauglers actually clean beforehand then say, "look, it was already great here!"

[idnib]

From one of their FB supporters: "They get federal money for each adoption so they take as many kids as they can. The better they're raised, they more they want them. Which would you be more likely to adopt? The child who was well raised and healthy or the crack baby who is going to require lots of medical help and therapy?"

 

Now there's a perfect conspiracy theory. Your kids were taken by CPS? That PROVES you were doing an excellent job of parenting!

 

S/O thread: Any curriculum for teaching my kids how to smoke crack for self-defense against the gov't? (JAWM)

[Spryte]

From one of their FB supporters: "They get federal money for each adoption so they take as many kids as they can. The better they're raised, they more they want them. Which would you be more likely to adopt? The child who was well raised and healthy or the crack baby who is going to require lots of medical help and therapy?"

 

Now there's a perfect conspiracy theory. Your kids were taken by CPS? That PROVES you were doing an excellent job of parenting!

 

:svengo:

[kwg]

S/O thread: Any curriculum for teaching my kids how to smoke crack for self-defense against the gov't? (JAWM)

 

snort

[Catwoman]

Their supporters comments are absolutely terrifying. So many comments about how wonderful it would be to live like that. Do people really think there is nothing wrong with that environment or are they interpreting the pictures differently than we are?

I can't help but wonder if the Nauglers have multiple FB accounts under different names and are posting as some of their own supporters.

[Heather in VA]

From one of their FB supporters: "They get federal money for each adoption so they take as many kids as they can. The better they're raised, they more they want them. Which would you be more likely to adopt? The child who was well raised and healthy or the crack baby who is going to require lots of medical help and therapy?"

 

Now there's a perfect conspiracy theory. Your kids were taken by CPS? That PROVES you were doing an excellent job of parenting!

 

I'm speechless....

[Renai]

Ahh, I hadn't read that much of that page.  It seems a little...  like  bullying to me.

 

It is also a place where people that have been asking pointed questions or making pointed comments and getting banned from the other site can ask their questions or comments without getting banned. Every "negative" comment is considered judgmental. It's getting to the point where everything even slightly perceived as negative is deleted. There was a question about doing a house-raising for them and someone answered that it might not be possible since the land is leased and they may not be able to have a permanent structure there. That comment was deleted. Why? I have no idea. 

 

The opposing site is getting information out that won't be allowed on the Naugler site. But, I agree, there is bullying going on on both pages.

[Xuzi]

Pace Ellsworth is a real person. From things he was saying on the Capistan page, I think that he and a few of the other Capistan "investors" were in some online LDS "anarcho-capitalist" group, and that's where they know the Nauglers from. He and the other investors seem to have some very naive ideals about creating this alternative economy, based on bitcoin, where "anarcho-capitalists" can help each other out. I don't think he has a clue how the Nauglers really lived or what their financial history was (bankruptcy, foreclosure, back taxes and child support owed, Joe's arrests, etc.). He kept saying that this was a great investment because Nicole is "the best there is" at dog grooming, lol.

That's the second reference I've seen to some kind of LDS anarchy group, and it just baffles me, because it's such an oxymoron. One of our Articles of Faith (the closest thing we have to an official creed, and which we're strongly encouraged to have memorized) states that "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

[Corraleno]

They are still insisting that they spent the weekend with all the kids together in one place, and only said goodbye on Monday.  :confused1: 

 

So this weekend Nicole posted photos of goats taken on their property, and sunsets that appear to have been taken while driving down the highway, while claiming that they were with the kids the whole time but that CPS prohibited them from taking pix of the kids while they were together. 

 

The news report said they had "a supervised visit on Friday" —no mention whatsoever of them staying in a home with all the kids from Friday through Monday. One would think that if they're lying about the weekend-long visit, then CPS would not be happy about them claiming that they got special treatment. And if they really did have a type of visit that is normally not permitted, then I presume CPS would be pissed off that they blabbed about it! 

[Heather in VA]

As for the other alternate fb page, I agree that it's a bit mean-spirited. It's as if they are rooting for the family's demise. I am not. I truly hope they can get it together so the family can be saved. As it is right now, it seems to be a pipe dream.

 

I agree but I admit I'm not completely innocent of mean-spirited thoughts. I am tired of the families who make the news related to homeschooling or Christian values or home birthing being such horrible representations of these things and/or using them to justify bad behavior. Fortunately here for the most part people are seeing their calls of persecution are a crock of crap but it still irks me. 

 

I want the absolute best for the children. They are innocent victims here. But part of me doesn't want good things for the parents. I'm working on it. 

[Renai]

From one of their FB supporters: "They get federal money for each adoption so they take as many kids as they can. The better they're raised, they more they want them. Which would you be more likely to adopt? The child who was well raised and healthy or the crack baby who is going to require lots of medical help and therapy?"

 

Now there's a perfect conspiracy theory. Your kids were taken by CPS? That PROVES you were doing an excellent job of parenting!

 

Wait, she's saying the kids were taken because they were well-behaved? Oh, then the poster who said they were invited to her house for dinner and they were peeing in the front yard was totally a troll.

[Catwoman]

I would hope at least Joe would be there. Nicole says on her pet grooming FB page that she is taking grooming appointments starting tomorrow so she might not be available. If they split the work, Nicole working at the pet grooming and Joe working on the homestead, they could start making some progress. Praying that is the case.

I'm sure her grooming business will be super-duper-busy from morning until night (because hundreds of people just flock to a new pet grooming business :rolleyes:) so she won't have a single second of free time to work on the property... and at the end of the business day, she will be way too exhausted to do any work at home. You know, from all that constant pet grooming she will be doing all day long.

 

Yeah.

 

Right.

 

She is both lazy and delusional. The parents cry that they want their kids back, but are too lazy to do what it takes to make it happen. But hey, why work when they can get some gullible volunteers to do all the physical labor for them, right? :glare:

[Renai]

I'm sure her grooming business will be super-duper-busy from morning until night (because hundreds of people just flock to a new pet grooming business :rolleyes:) so she won't have a single second of free time to work on the property... and at the end of the business day, she will be way too exhausted to do any work at home. You know, from all that constant pet grooming she will be doing all day long.

 

Yeah.

 

Right.

 

She is both lazy and delusional. The parents cry that they want their kids back, but are too lazy to do what it takes to make it happen. But hey, why work when they can get some gullible volunteers to do all the physical labor for them, right? :glare:

 

Well, there may be at least 3 customers, according to the BLGC fb, so without the kids there, she'll have to do the work.

[Halcyon]

http://www.mormon.org/me/6jw3

 

A bit about Pace.

[mamakelly]

Can anyone post on her homestead FB page? I see all sorts of posts I want to respond to, but it won't let me

[annandatje]

Pace Ellsworth is a real person. From things he was saying on the Capistan page, I think that he and a few of the other Capistan "investors" were in some online LDS "anarcho-capitalist" group, and that's where they know the Nauglers from. He and the other investors seem to have some very naive ideals about creating this alternative economy, based on bitcoin, where "anarcho-capitalists" can help each other out. I don't think he has a clue how the Nauglers really lived or what their financial history was (bankruptcy, foreclosure, back taxes and child support owed, Joe's arrests, etc.). He kept saying that this was a great investment because Nicole is "the best there is" at dog grooming, lol.

 

A legitimate investor would not sink funds into a pet grooming salon to be operated by someone with problematic financial history in a small town where there already is an existing supposedly successful salon. 

 

Per Mrs. Naugler's own words, she had a dispute with her employer who owned a grooming salon.  She felt she was underpaid and taken advantage of, which certainly could be accurate.

 

The photos of salon showed wooden tables.  Wood cannot be effectively sanitized; I was surprised the tables were not stainless steel.