NOOOOOO!

[mamakelly]

Where did you see that update?

[Guest]

How do they possibly think they will get the kids back when nothing has changed???

[melmichigan]

I found it curious that news agencies are reporting that the children are being kept in four different foster homes across four counties.

[Heather in VA]

I really hope that is typical lawyer public grandstanding and in private they are getting real advice about what needs to be done.

[BrookValley.]

There are plenty of midwives who will attend births in homes without modern conveniences. When I was pregnant with my third, I interviewed a midwife who also attended births for the Amish. These people aren't the Amish. I don't think she could get any trained professional to attend her birth there.

Agree. These people are definitely not the Amish. The Amish can and do have modern conveniences. Have you ever been in an Amish home? Most (at least, the Amish and old-order Mennonites in my area) have lovely homes with indoor plumbing, lights and ceiling fans, stoves, refrigerator...they just use gas and coal to fuel everything. It's plain and simple, but not much different than any other modern home, really. A far cry from the hut the Nauglers where camping in.

[gardenmom5]

I found it curious that news agencies are reporting that the children are being kept in four different foster homes across four counties.

 

why do you find it curious?  cps rules generally won't allow very many children in one home - and certainly not all ten.  besides, the amount of remedial care and evaluations the children would need would be far more than one set of foster parents could possibly handle unless it was their full time job.

the only curious thing to me is each family is in a different county.

 

I don't take anything Nicole says at her word.  she seems completely oblivious to reality.

[gardenmom5]

Agree. These people are definitely not the Amish. The Amish can and do have modern conveniences. Have you ever been in an Amish home? Most (at least, the Amish and old-order Mennonites in my area) have lovely homes with indoor plumbing, lights and ceiling fans, stoves, refrigerator...they just use gas and coal to fuel everything. It's plain and simple, but not much different than any other modern home, really. A far cry from the hut the Nauglers where camping in.

 

 

here's a ranch in texas that is off-grid.  has it's own well, generators, etc.  it could also be a vacation destination.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3080962/Off-grid-Texas-palace-ranch-sets-sales-record-following-China-does-hunting-fishing-spa-paintball-course-driving-range-skeet-range-facilities.html

 

 

iow: off-grid =/= slumming it.

[Heather in VA]

If they really are in 4 different homes across 4 counties, which I tend to believe, then it does show that Nicole was full of it when she said they had them all together all weekend. 

[Heather in VA]

Ok - for this suburbanite - how exactly does a generator work? I know people around here who have one but it's mostly to run the fridge for a short time if we have a prolonged power outage. How does a generator create its own power or create enough to power something like that? I'd live there in a second. UPS still delivers off grid, right? I like Amazon LOL.

[gardenmom5]

Ok - for this suburbanite - how exactly does a generator work? I know people around here who have one but it's mostly to run the fridge for a short time if we have a prolonged power outage. How does a generator create its own power or create enough to power something like that? I'd live there in a second. UPS still delivers off grid, right? I like Amazon LOL.

 

 

depends what's running the generator and how many watts it puts out.  most people are most familiar with emergency generators that don't have that much wattage.

 

generators can run on natural gas, solar, wind, steam, etc.  (in addition to most emergency home generators that run on gasoline.)

 

ups and amazon will deliver to an address.  off-grid means you supply your own utilities - you still have an address.

 

eta: our neighbors have a cell-tower on their property.  during an extended power outage, the phone company brought in a (not sure of size - they had to haul it on a flatbed. it was very *big*) emergency generator to run the thing.  I'm not sure what it ran on - but they weren't constantly babysitting it.  he made a deal with them to hook his house up to it also.  so, we used his generator.

[Halcyon]

Where did you see that update?

 

 

http://www.wdrb.com/story/29089374/off-the-grid-family-expected-in-court-to-fight-for-custody-of-children

[Halcyon]

And here's a weird post from their FB page today. Guess we were all wrong about what "off-the-grid" means.... :confused1:

 

Off grid doesn't mean we don't have electric, water etc.

It means we aren't connected to "the grid."

We live near Fort Knox. Seems they like the off grid idea as well. Of course they had the funds to build it all at once, we had a longer time frame.

We are building an off grid homestead. We didn't buy one. It's from scratch. Baby steps. We have plans for many of the things you all suggested. We just weren't on your time frame.

 

[Orthodox6]

Were I to be building such a home -- (and I do not oppose such a home) -- I would build it first, while living in clean, habitable quarters until the project was far enough along to be safe for my family.  ("safe" as in "clean and habitable")  It is very possible to move in before a homestead building project is complete. "Cart before the horse" applies to this family.  (at best)

[gardenmom5]

If they really are in 4 different homes across 4 counties, which I tend to believe, then it does show that Nicole was full of it when she said they had them all together all weekend. 

 

 

all the better to have her supporters freak out when they don't get the kids back . .. .

 

I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt that she's 'just' nuts. (as opposed to malicious)

[gardenmom5]

Were I to be building such a home -- (and I do not oppose such a home) -- I would build it first, while living in clean, habitable quarters until the project was far enough along to be safe for my family.  ("safe" as in "clean and habitable")  It is very possible to move in before a homestead building project is complete. "Cart before the horse" applies to this family.  (at best)

 

 

I think the only reason they were living that way is they were evicted from their rental - because they didn't treat it any better.  there was reportedly human waste on the floor there too. as well as rotten food, etc.  then they had that "mobile shack" which "they gave back" (translation - was repossessed.)

[Orthodox6]

I think the only reason they were living that way is they were evicted from their rental - because they didn't treat it any better.  there was reportedly human waste on the floor there too. as well as rotten food, etc.  then they had that "mobile shack" which "they gave back" (translation - was repossessed.)

 

Agreeing, as this "damning" information has been published.  I just wanted to "go to bat" for folks who have the knowledge and skills base for "doing it right"! 

[Renai]

I found it curious that news agencies are reporting that the children are being kept in four different foster homes across four counties.

 

She doesn't look well in that picture. More than just missing the kids type unwell. I don't want to sound judgmental, but it doesn't look like her hair is even combed. It doesn't look like she's taking care of herself. 

[Mergath]

She doesn't look well in that picture. More than just missing the kids type unwell. I don't want to sound judgmental, but it doesn't look like her hair is even combed. It doesn't look like she's taking care of herself.

Or like she's trying to start dreads and doesn't have any idea what she's doing.

[Acorn]

I saw a photo somewhere on her blog that she is starting dreads.

[Mergath]

Were I to be building such a home -- (and I do not oppose such a home) -- I would build it first, while living in clean, habitable quarters until the project was far enough along to be safe for my family. ("safe" as in "clean and habitable") It is very possible to move in before a homestead building project is complete. "Cart before the horse" applies to this family. (at best)

Exactly. If I'm going to start a garden, it doesn't mean I'm exempt from feeding my kid until the vegetables are ready. I don't get a pass because I'll have food again eventually.

[Ottakee]

why do you find it curious?  cps rules generally won't allow very many children in one home - and certainly not all ten.  besides, the amount of remedial care and evaluations the children would need would be far more than one set of foster parents could possibly handle unless it was their full time job.

the only curious thing to me is each family is in a different county.

 

I don't take anything Nicole says at her word.  she seems completely oblivious to reality.

I agree here.  We are only licensed for 4 and it would be a HUGE deal to try to take even 4 of these kids.  One of the older boys has suspected autism/spectrum stuff, there is a lack of education, need for updating all medical/dental/vision care, along with counseling, court appointments, social worker visits, bio parent visits, and on and on.  Foster care is WAY more work than taking care of your friend's 4 kids for a week or 2 and just imagine how tired you would be doing just that.

[Seasider]

here's a ranch in texas that is off-grid.  has it's own well, generators, etc.  it could also be a vacation destination.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3080962/Off-grid-Texas-palace-ranch-sets-sales-record-following-China-does-hunting-fishing-spa-paintball-course-driving-range-skeet-range-facilities.html

 

 

iow: off-grid =/= slumming it.

 

Nice, but you have to admit that is lottery-winner caliber. Just the leather in that place would cost more than the $48K in the Naugler's go fund me account.

[gardenmom5]

Nice, but you have to admit that is lottery-winner caliber. Just the leather in that place would cost more than the $48K in the Naugler's go fund me account.

 

considering how they live - I shudder to think what it would be like after they were there for a year.  it would be filthy and disgusting too as they wouldn't change their living habits.

 

it's not where you live - it's how you live.  they live they way they do because that's how they live. 

[Tanaqui]

I do know of at least one case (reported in the media) where a foster family had eight siblings living with them, but as I recall it was an adoption case and they had to get an exemption on the grounds that a. the children were biological siblings and b. they had already adopted four of the siblings and intended to adopt the rest. They may have also had to show plans to renovate the house and add another bedroom before the adoption was finalized, bu don't quote me on that.

 

Point being, it's very unlikely that you'll find a foster home for so very many children at once, not just because it's hard to take care of that many children (and harder when you consider children rarely end up taken from families without some abuse or neglect going on), but because the law reasonably restricts how many foster kids you can have in your home at once.

[melmichigan]

why do you find it curious?  cps rules generally won't allow very many children in one home - and certainly not all ten.  besides, the amount of remedial care and evaluations the children would need would be far more than one set of foster parents could possibly handle unless it was their full time job.

the only curious thing to me is each family is in a different county.

 

I don't take anything Nicole says at her word.  she seems completely oblivious to reality.

I found it "curious" that Nicole and all her supporters are discussing the children as all being in the same home, knowing that the media is reporting otherwise.  (It was a poor word choice, sorry.)  

[gardenmom5]

I do know of at least one case (reported in the media) where a foster family had eight siblings living with them, but as I recall it was an adoption case and they had to get an exemption on the grounds that a. the children were biological siblings and b. they had already adopted four of the siblings and intended to adopt the rest. They may have also had to show plans to renovate the house and add another bedroom before the adoption was finalized, bu don't quote me on that.

 

Point being, it's very unlikely that you'll find a foster home for so very many children at once, not just because it's hard to take care of that many children (and harder when you consider children rarely end up taken from families without some abuse or neglect going on), but because the law reasonably restricts how many foster kids you can have in your home at once.

 

 

I seem to recall that one where the couple were newlyweds and adopted the entire (large) family.  but I can't find it.

 

there is a Nebraska family started with two siblings in foster care - then as each new baby arrived, the baby was placed with them.  (the mother was an addict who couldn't get her life together.)  so they ended up with eight boys (one with downs) over 10 years.

 

there was a family in NV who adopted eight siblings out of foster care -  they had been in the system in different homes for several months before all eight were placed with the family.  their adoption brought the family to 15.  the case worker said she'd never seen the children so happy.  and they did have to buy a larger home - and mom quit her job to be home full-time.

 

not including the couple who adopted 8 siblings from sierra leone. (pretty sure they had to jump through hoops to do that.)

[Forget-Me-Not]

Is it odd that they've taken some of them out of county as well?  I have zero experience beyond knowing a few people who foster, but I thought the kids generally stayed within the county when they were placed in foster care (at least in my area). 

Didn't they also start out claiming that they had a friend who was willing to take in all the kids so the kids wouldn't have to go into foster care? I could swear I read that and that the judge had OK-ed it.  Clearly that didn't pan out.

[Mergath]

Is it odd that they've taken some of them out of county as well? I have zero experience beyond knowing a few people who foster, but I thought the kids generally stayed within the county when they were placed in foster care (at least in my area).

 

Didn't they also start out claiming that they had a friend who was willing to take in all the kids so the kids wouldn't have to go into foster care? I could swear I read that and that the judge had OK-ed it. Clearly that didn't pan out.

I would guess they just didn't have enough openings for the different ages in the same county. That's a lot of kids to have to place at once.

[Whereneverever]

I just saw they're not getting them back presently. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=803971073033300&id=523850267712050&fref=nf

[Forget-Me-Not]

I'm seeing it on Twitter too.  One report says they won't have another hearing until June.

[gardenmom5]

I just saw they're not getting them back presently. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=803971073033300&id=523850267712050&fref=nf

 

 

hu - ray.

 

 

I wonder what it would take to get Nicole and joe to start acting sane?  I wonder if any of their kids will still be under 18 when they start acting sane?

[Guest]

I wonder if this will get them to clean the place up or if they will spend their time Facebooking?

[Ottakee]

Is it odd that they've taken some of them out of county as well?  I have zero experience beyond knowing a few people who foster, but I thought the kids generally stayed within the county when they were placed in foster care (at least in my area). 

 

Didn't they also start out claiming that they had a friend who was willing to take in all the kids so the kids wouldn't have to go into foster care? I could swear I read that and that the judge had OK-ed it.  Clearly that didn't pan out.

Not really.  My current one is one of 5 and they are currently in 3 different counties.  One is with bio father is one county, one is in a county just south of here (only 1 1/2 miles south of the foster care office is the county line so close) and then 3 in our county.  It is a lot of kids with a lot of need to place at once.  You could also possible have 3 or 4 counties that meet and have the kids only a few miles away from each other but in 3 or 4 different counties.

 

The friend would have to first of all really be willing and able and then they would need to pass a home inspection and criminal back ground check AND have room for the kids.

 

If they had a lot of local friends/supporters, I would have hoped that they would have been busting butt to help the parents clean the place up, put up fencing as needed, get sanitation and water in place, etc. but no where are there reports of them working on the place to bring it up to CPS standards.

[SproutMamaK]

What a relief for those kids. And the foster parents have a few solid weeks to work with the kids. Hoping the parents don't have too much visitation during that time to try to undermine the foster families, or that if they do it's extremely well supervised.

[Heather in VA]

 

And here's a weird post from their FB page today. Guess we were all wrong about what "off-the-grid" means.... :confused1:

 

Off grid doesn't mean we don't have electric, water etc.

It means we aren't connected to "the grid."

We live near Fort Knox. Seems they like the off grid idea as well. Of course they had the funds to build it all at once, we had a longer time frame.

We are building an off grid homestead. We didn't buy one. It's from scratch. Baby steps. We have plans for many of the things you all suggested. We just weren't on your time frame.

 

 

 

This is a very bizarre post. Just set aside the 2nd comment about baby steps, that was well addressed above by the poster who said you don't get a pass on feeding your kids now because you planted a garden that will have food someday.

 

Just the first part speaks volumes to me. For most people, being "off-the-grid' means to supply your own utilities and can mean growing most or at least a decent amount of your food. But to her she says being off "the grid' is different that that. To me that really shows that this is about anti-government, not homesteading. The "grid" is anything where the government can know who you are or what you are doing. This is why I think they are going to continue to see themselves as persecuted. Anything... absolutely anything someone asked of them is a threat. Any rule is hostile. Any expectation is persecution. If the assumption that the CPS wants a safe, clean living environment with safe food and water as their primary demand to get the kids back I think we would all agree that is not overstepping the bounds of government and they are requesting something reasonable. But I don't think these guys believe it's possible for anyone to ask anything reasonable of them. They believe they have to right to live without anyone, anything or any government telling them anything. What they are missing is that as parents the one right we do not have with our children is to deny them their fundamental rights. Children have the right not to be abused and the overrides the parents' rights to do whatever they want. 

[LucyStoner]

Is it odd that they've taken some of them out of county as well? I have zero experience beyond knowing a few people who foster, but I thought the kids generally stayed within the county when they were placed in foster care (at least in my area).

 

Didn't they also start out claiming that they had a friend who was willing to take in all the kids so the kids wouldn't have to go into foster care? I could swear I read that and that the judge had OK-ed it. Clearly that didn't pan out.

.

 

In rural counties, they might only have a small handful of homes open to new placements at any one time. CPS probably didn't have a choice but to place them in a few different areas.

[gardenmom5]

also, eastern state counties tend to be MUCH smaller than western state counties.

 

the "off-the grid" has made me think of "alone in the wilderness".  the videos of dick proenneke.  you can watch them on youtube - but of course they're out of order.

 

he went to live in the Alaska bush.  brought a film camera to document and kept an extensive diary.  he built his own tools (packed the metal parts, made the handles).  he built his own log cabin over the course of the summer, with the fireplace built from rock before winter arrived.  he later built an elevated food storage house. 

 

it's positively luxurious compared to how these children were forced to live.  but then he was a very hard worker.

[LucyStoner]

also, eastern state counties tend to be MUCH smaller than western state counties.

 

the "off-the grid" has made me think of "alone in the wilderness". the videos of dick proenneke. you can watch them on youtube - but of course they're out of order.

 

he went to live in the Alaska bush. brought a film camera to document and kept an extensive diary. he built his own tools (packed the metal parts, made the handles). he built his own log cabin over the course of the summer, with the fireplace built from rock before winter arrived. he later built an elevated food storage house.

 

it's positively luxurious compared to how these children were forced to live. but then he was a very hard worker.

That's a good point. 4 counties away in the west could be almost clear across the state but it's not like that in Kentucky. Kentucky counties are smaller geographically than our state. http://www.digital-topo-maps.com/county-map/kentucky.shtml

[Heather in VA]

That's a good point. 4 counties away in the west could be almost clear across the state but it's not like that in Kentucky.

 

I do know that a fair number of rural kids here end up in foster care in one of our three most populous counties because that's often where they have homes open right when needed.

 

LOL - that's funny. I was confused about why people thought it was so strange for them to be in 4 different counties. It never occurred to me that would be a huge distance. Here in the DC area we have  5 counties within 45 minutes depending on traffic

[LucyStoner]

LOL - that's funny. I was confused about why people thought it was so strange for them to be in 4 different counties. It never occurred to me that would be a huge distance. Here in the DC area we have 5 counties within 45 minutes depending on traffic

Yup, whereas here three counties north and I'm on the Canadian border, three counties south and I am crossing into Oregon, and three counties west I am at the Pacific Ocean. I can get 4-5 counties away and still be in the state if I head east.

[LucyStoner]

Odd political geography factoid: Kentucky has 120 counties, the third most of any state despite being geographically smaller than most states. So it may be their counties are especially small.

[Tanaqui]

Given how bad the situation appears to be from photos, I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them is suffering from depression and possibly some other mental illness. One of the hallmarks of depression is "sickness behavior" - which definitely includes difficulty keeping oneself and ones surroundings tidy and... well, and clean and hygienic. The depression can be exacerbated by the squalor, which in turn is caused by the depression.

 

And a lot of things can lead to defensiveness and an inability to see what's wrong, or to see how serious it is, or to have any idea how to fix problems.

 

I'm not saying this to defend the parents - really, the conditions do not appear to be healthy for children, and given the parents anti-government stance I think removing the kids was the right thing to do. (In normal circumstances I'd say that keeping them at home while supporting the parents might be a better bet, but in this particular case I think it wouldn't be surprising if the parents cut and ran with that approach, plus I'm reasonably certain the parents went out of their way to antagonize the cops and social workers, which is stupid. My general rule of thumb is "don't screw with the people who can screw you up", and it's always served me well.)

 

I'm just thinking that as awful as the situation was, it may be hard for some parents in this situation to fix things up right off the bat, even though it seems like what to do ought to be obvious.

 

(Note, this has to do specifically with the one thing we can prove is the case, which is that the household was unsafe and unhygienic. Oh, and the theft. Neighbors talking about how they are awful people and use the kids as unpaid labor is interesting, and might be true, but we don't even know if those "neighbors" are actual neighbors and not trolls, do we?)

 

As far as the weird facebook pictures go, I can see the mindset. By posting pictures of sunsets and animals they may be saying to themselves (and rather less successfully to the rest of us) that everything is normal, this is just a minor blip, there's nothing really wrong and it'll all be cleared up soon without having to make major and difficult changes to how they live. This is not even remotely a healthy attitude, but it's not necessarily a callous one either.

 

Of course, this is all my supposition. I don't know these folks and I certainly am not Deanna Troi! But I know I've definitely been in bad situations where I kept trying to make plans and do things like nothing was wrong. I just had the good sense not to blog about it.

[Heather in VA]

I do think she looks like she's not taking care of herself but part of me wonders if it's an act. She looks overwhelmed with despair and grief but at the very same time she's posting on her FB page for her pet grooming how everything is coming along great and she plans to open today. 

[Tanaqui]

I do think she looks like she's not taking care of herself but part of me wonders if it's an act. She looks overwhelmed with despair and grief but at the very same time she's posting on her FB page for her pet grooming how everything is coming along great and she plans to open today. 

 

I think the point is moot. Being mentally ill won't get you your kids back if you're unable to care for them, and if she's willing to fake illness then in a way that really is its own kind of sickness.

 

It's just as likely that the fantasyland on her facebook page is the act, or that both of them are honest, if incomplete looks into a somewhat disordered mental state.

[melmichigan]

I do think she looks like she's not taking care of herself but part of me wonders if it's an act. She looks overwhelmed with despair and grief but at the very same time she's posting on her FB page for her pet grooming how everything is coming along great and she plans to open today. 

Is this a separate Facebook page?

[LucyStoner]

I think the point is moot. Being mentally ill won't get you your kids back if you're unable to care for them, and if she's willing to fake illness then in a way that really is its own kind of sickness.

 

It's just as likely that the fantasyland on her facebook page is the act, or that both of them are honest, if incomplete looks into a somewhat disordered mental state.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

[LucyStoner]

Is this a separate Facebook page?

The FB page for the grooming company.

 

https://m.facebook.com/BlessedLittleGroomingCompany

[Magnolia Rain]

I'm just going to place this here:

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-NASTY-Little-Homestead/790726694356144

 

Some of the screen shots are ... Disturbing.

[mamakelly]

I'm curious what the requirements for reunification would be. I've had friends who did foster care, so I kind of know what those bio parents had to do to get their kids back but this case is so strange with the "homestead" issue. I mean I think they'd require a separate bed for each child, and an actual house of some sort.

[imagine.more]

I am dying at the cover photo for that Nasty Little Homestead Facebook page, bahaha! 

 

But yes, it seems there's a lot more info there that is worrisome. Of course it is the internet so anyone can say anything but the straight screen shots of her own page and audio recordings and such seem legit. Plus it's the sheer # of people coming forward speaking against them and the total lack of local support that makes me suspicious of their stories. Well, lots of things make me suspicious of this family but that's one thing ;)