Can we talk about anger?

[MyThreeSons]

Have you ever been so angry or frustrated with someone or about something that you felt like you wanted to punch something? Not that you necessarily did, just that you felt like you wanted to? 

 

Do you think most children have experienced that feeling? 

 

Have you ever felt that way as an adult? 

 

Do you think it's possible to say you understand having that level of frustration or anger without condoning or excusing any actual punching?

[Rosie_0801]

Yes, of course.

 

 

And  :grouphug:  to you. People having a good day don't ask questions like these!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes, I've felt that way.

 

I know my kids have felt that way.

 

Yes, I've felt that way as an adult.

 

Yes, it is possible to understand the frustration without telling someone to actually punch someone or saying it's ok.  

[Tanaqui]

 

Have you ever been so angry or frustrated with someone or about something that you felt like you wanted to punch something? Not that you necessarily did, just that you felt like you wanted to? 

 

Do you think most children have experienced that feeling? 

 

Have you ever felt that way as an adult? 

 

Do you think it's possible to say you understand having that level of frustration or anger without condoning or excusing any actual punching?

 

1. Punching, no, but throwing things and kicking yes. And it took me a longer time than most to grow out of automatically doing it, whether I would have wanted to or not if I'd been able to calm down.

 

2. I'm sure most children have experienced that feeling. Anger is a normal human emotion.

 

3. Absolutely, and I regularly pat myself on the back for being grown-up enough to cool down rather than immediately doing just what I want. (Really, it took me a long time to get to that point.)

 

4. Sure. We all have feelings. We all have impulses. But acting on our violent impulses is frequently unhelpful and usually unethical as well. Part of growing up is learning to not do all the dumb things we want to do just because that's what we want to do right now - and another part is learning to sympathize with other people's stupid choices even as you know they were a bad idea. So you can absolutely say "I get that you were really mad when your brother broke your game, and he and I will be having a long talk about using other people's things without permission - and even with permission he was being too careless! - but violence was not the answer in this situation and I think you're old enough to know it" without any hypocrisy.

[LucyStoner]

I am a reformed puncher.

 

I've not only felt that way, until I was, oh maybe twenty, I did punch people. Since then, I can think of times I have been physically intimidating in self defense but not actual punching. I can say that, for the most part it was self defense after age 11-12. But I was definitely willing and able to punch people. PTSD and anger management issues were part of it. Chaos was part of it. Being thrown into a protector role was also part of it. Supposedly the first person I hit was a little boy who called my brother a racial slur, but I don't know how much of that is family lore rather than reality. I do recall throwing punches as a child when my other brother would be picked on about his leg brace. My parents were big into non-violence so I was something of a puzzle.

 

My nickname with a certain set of friends is "the fist".

 

I have used a lot of things to learn to manage anger and maintain calmness. Meditation, exercise, talking myself down are big ones. I redoubled my efforts to be more calm when I became a parent.

[Melissa in Australia]

yes.

 not that I would punch people but I will sometimes go to my room , shut the door and jump up and down. :leaving:  :leaving: I have been known to go in there and scream as well, but that I usually extreme frustration not anger.

 

 

[Guest]

I've never punched someone. I'm very non violent. But I scream and holler and slam doors when I hit my limit, and I admit to seething really hard over some things people have said and done.

 

I'm really grateful the Lord is merciful to me, even when I'm an epic fail on loving thy neighbor :o

[Reflections]

Yes.  I think it's very normal to have some strong feeling once in a while. Every day, all day for years and years. No. Not normal. Get help.

 

Telling someone you understand and trying to help them is not condoning behavior, it's being a compassionate human being.  I'm sorry there's this turmoil in your life right now. :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[marbel]

Yes to every question.

 

I tend to want to throw things rather than punch something.  Anger is natural and sometimes I guess the adrenaline flowing makes physical action seem necessary or maybe even inevitable.  That's why people slam doors, or stomp around.  My kids can tell if I'm mad by the way I bang pans and cupboard doors.  I take my anger out on my kitchen, I guess. 

[MyThreeSons]

Thanks. It's interesting that so many assumed that I was having one of those days. In a nutshell, here is what was actually going on:

 

A friend and I were engaged in one of our Facebook discussions. We often debate serious issues, so this was quite typical for us. 

 

At one point, I was saying that one can understand being so frustrated that one feels like punching someone or something, without condoning the actual physical act. My friend said that saying you understand that anger or frustration equates to condoning following up with violence. 

 

I asked him what I asked here: Haven't you ever felt so angry or frustrated that you wanted to hit someone or something? And his answer was that no, he has NEVER felt that way. I find that inconceivable. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I never feel violent when angry.  I'm most likely to just cry. 

 

If you feel like it, but don't act on it, I don't think that's a problem at all.  You feel how you feel.  That does not equate to condoning it.  Utter nonsense. 

[maize]

I rarely get angry, but when I do my fists ball up and I have a desperate urge to start pummeling someone.

 

Yes, you can understand and validate the feeling without condoning the action.

 

I don't however find it inconceivable that your friend has not experienced the desire to hit; people react to things internally in different ways. I have had people disbelieve me when I tell them I feel happy/content 99% of the time; that is not their experience so they assume it cannot really be mine and I must be suppressing a bunch of irritated and unhappy feelings. I'm not, I'm just very mellow by nature. I do get quite angry a couple of times a decade...

[MyThreeSons]

I rarely get angry, but when I do my fists ball up and I have a desperate urge to start pummeling someone.

 

Yes, you can understand and validate the feeling without condoning the action.

 

I don't however find it inconceivable that your friend has not experienced the desire to hit; people react to things internally in different ways. I have had people disbelieve me when I tell them I feel happy/content 99% of the time; that is not their experience so they assume it cannot really be mine and I must be suppressing a bunch of irritated and unhappy feelings. I'm not, I'm just very mellow by nature. I do get quite angry a couple of times a decade...

 

I also tend to reflexively clench my fists. I used to be a yeller and a door-slammer. By the grace of God, those are rare reactions from me these days. 

 

You're right, of course, that people react to things internally in different ways. Thinking about this gave a flash of insight into this man: perhaps he truly cannot understand the concept of "understanding but not condoning". I don't believe he's a liar, so he must really believe he has NEVER (his emphasis) been that frustrated or angry. I wonder if his mother would confirm that even as a child, he never got that angry or frustrated.

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way.  :crying:

[Mimm]

I have a temper that I'm struggled against my entire life, yes to the point of wanting to hit people around me. My oldest has an anger problem. She's very emotional and usually lashes out verbally (and gets very nasty about it) but frequently physically as well. She's been angry since she was very little. My youngest amuses me. At almost 18 months old, she hasn't gotten the hang of tantrums yet. She'll get angry and hit objects near her and lay down carefully on the floor (because she bumped her head pretty hard one time when she recklessly threw herself on the floor) and then is usually over it. At her age, my oldest was throwing tantrums multiple times a day that involved 15+ minutes of screaming red faced on the floor. And at 14, she's still angry, though we try not to ever allow physical violence.

 

A bad temper is just a part of a person. I explain to my daughter that everyone has their flaws they have to work on. After 34 years, I can say I've made a lot of progress, but I'm certainly not perfect yet. I wish for my kids' sake they didn't have the same flaw. It's not fun.

[maize]

I also tend to reflexively clench my fists. I used to be a yeller and a door-slammer. By the grace of God, those are rare reactions from me these days.

 

You're right, of course, that people react to things internally in different ways. Thinking about this gave a flash of insight into this man: perhaps he truly cannot understand the concept of "understanding but not condoning". I don't believe he's a liar, so he must really believe he has NEVER (his emphasis) been that frustrated or angry. I wonder if his mother would confirm that even as a child, he never got that angry or frustrated.

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way. :crying:

Yikes, I cannot imagine that a person who has never been very frustrated or angry could effectively counsel those who experience ordinary anger, unless he were basing his counseling on evidence-driven practices for managing anger.

 

I struggle to understand and cope with anger in those around me, because it feels to me (my personal experience) that there is no reason to be angry over the many things they seem to get angry over. I do however try to focus in counseling my kids on the fact that irritation and anger are normal reactions but they are still responsible for their actions. Yes, you feel angry about little brother bumping you and making you drop your cup. No, it is not OK to express your anger by hitting him.

[luuknam]

At one point, I was saying that one can understand being so frustrated that one feels like punching someone or something, without condoning the actual physical act. My friend said that saying you understand that anger or frustration equates to condoning following up with violence.

 

I have to disagree with your friend and agree with you. There are a lot of things I've felt like doing that I haven't done and would not condone. But, I can understand where people who do those things are coming from. And I think that if you were talking with someone who actually does those things, you're going to have more luck if you're coming from a "I know how you feel, I feel that way too at times" kind of perspective, than if you say "Wow, I never feel that way, what's wrong with you?".

 

For example, suppose you have another friend who actually is prone to punching things or people when mad. I think it would be more useful to hear something like "I get so mad too at times that I want to punch things/people, but I do x instead", than to hear another friend say "I've never felt that way and punching is wrong". Even more useful might be to hear from someone who used to punch but has stopped that habit.

 

It can also feel very lonely if everybody says that they have never felt a certain way and you must be a bad, evil person for feeling a certain way. That doesn't help; it just tends to make you feel worse and feeling worse makes it more likely you'll do things you shouldn't do.

[KrissiK]

We'll, if course. It's completely natural. And it's ok to admit it! When you start going wrong is when you start punching people and animals and breaking things.

[maize]

We'll, if course. It's completely natural. And it's ok to admit it! When you start going wrong is when you start punching people and animals and breaking things.

Actually, a lot of people start to go wrong when they start yelling at and putting people down. We may instinctively be more horrified by physical violence, but verbal and emotional violence driven by anger are far from harmless.

 

Acknowledge the anger as a valid reaction, but teach that what we do with that anger is within our control and that violence of any sort is rarely justifiable or effective in resolving a perceived problem.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would not want someone counseling me like that.  

 

I would wonder if he has a lot of suppressed anger but I do acknowledge that we all react to things differently.  When ds (an Aspie) was little, he was unable to label his anger as anger and would adamantly insist that he was not angry but was "unhappy".  We worked a lot on being able to express emotions verbally.  In his case he did express it with punching (walls) so expressing it verbally was a form of dealing with it while still controlling it.  

 

I wonder if he says that Jesus was angry towards God when he overturned the tables in the temple?  

[Kerileanne99]

I think it is extremely important to make sure kids know these feelings are normal and teach them to channel their emotions appropriately.

When I was very young, maybe 5? I remember having this almost uncontrollable urge to squeeze something when I got angry. I tried telling my mother, and I guess I happened to be petting my dog when I was talking to her. She FREAKED (later I discovered she thought I meant I wanted to harm small anjmals?!). She scared the pants of me making me feel like there was something very wrong with me. In fact, she specifically told me about how kids with anger issues get locked up. I became terrified that I was secretly bad and violent and couldn't let anyone know...for years😒

Obviously an extreme case, but making sure kids know strong emotion is natural, and so is the DESIRE to react physically...how to channel those emotions into something more appropriate is the way we deal with them.

[sparrow]

Hmmm.  I don't believe I've ever wanted to punch someone or something. Maybe? I'm more of a thrower.

 

As an adult, I have twice emptied the pots and pans cupboard and thrown each item, as hard as I could, out the backdoor. Then I took a deep breath and retrieved them. I recommend this method over hitting something or someone.

[Ellie]

 

I asked him what I asked here: Haven't you ever felt so angry or frustrated that you wanted to hit someone or something? And his answer was that no, he has NEVER felt that way. I find that inconceivable. 

 

No, I have never felt that way. I don't think Mr. Ellie has ever felt that way. Not sure about my dc, but I don't think they have, either. We're just not angry people, I guess. :-)

[VaKim]

I am capable of a very violent temper. And like pp said, I am a thrower. And I have thrown things at people. With the intention of hurting them. Thank God it is pretty much under control in my old age, lol.

[MyThreeSons]

To add further context to the discussion, we were specifically talking about recent events in Baltimore. I had posted a quote from Martin Luther King Jr, wherein he spoke to the idea of understanding that riots and looting erupt out of a frustration of not being heard. I made it clear that neither I nor MLKjr was condoning violence -- we were both simply saying that we understood that level of frustration that led to it. 

 

His response was that MLK's statement assumes that there is an inherent moral deficiency in the black man, that he saw the black man as less evolved than the white man and not made in God's image. He said that MLKjr was saying that blacks were incapable of controlling themselves when confronted with such frustrations. I countered that there are numerous writings and speeches by MLKjr that clearly show that is simply not true. My friend stands by his statement that saying one understands that level of frustration is also condoning the following action. 

[sparrow]

To add further context to the discussion, we were specifically talking about recent events in Baltimore. I had posted a quote from Martin Luther King Jr, wherein he spoke to the idea of understanding that riots and looting erupt out of a frustration of not being heard. I made it clear that neither I nor MLKjr was condoning violence -- we were both simply saying that we understood that level of frustration that led to it. 

 

His response was that MLK's statement assumes that there is an inherent moral deficiency in the black man, that he saw the black man as less evolved than the white man and not made in God's image. He said that MLKjr was saying that blacks were incapable of controlling themselves when confronted with such frustrations. I countered that there are numerous writings and speeches by MLKjr that clearly show that is simply not true. My friend stands by his statement that saying one understands that level of frustration is also condoning the following action. 

 

:huh: I could not be friends with such a person.

[MyThreeSons]

Hmmm.  I don't believe I've ever wanted to punch someone or something. Maybe? I'm more of a thrower.

 

As an adult, I have twice emptied the pots and pans cupboard and thrown each item, as hard as I could, out the backdoor. Then I took a deep breath and retrieved them. I recommend this method over hitting something or someone.

 

Okay -- maybe I should have been broader with my question -- maybe something along the lines of "Have you ever been so frustrated or angry that you felt like you wanted to do something physical, punch someone or something, throw something, slam a door, jump up and down, yell, run, etc.?"

 

I guess some people really are capable of always responding to an extreme frustration with "I know God is in control, even in this situation. He has put this adversity in my life for a reason. I will respond in humble submission and let Him work through this to mature me." I am not yet there, and I can remember being even farther away from there than I am now. 

[maize]

Well now that opens a whole 'nother can of worms...

 

ETA referring to the MLK/racial bit above.

[maize]

Okay -- maybe I should have been broader with my question -- maybe something along the lines of "Have you ever been so frustrated or angry that you felt like you wanted to do something physical, punch someone or something, throw something, slam a door, jump up and down, yell, run, etc.?"

 

I guess some people really are capable of always responding to an extreme frustration with "I know God is in control, even in this situation. He has put this adversity in my life for a reason. I will respond in humble submission and let Him work through this to mature me." I am not yet there, and I can remember being even farther away from there than I am now.

And some people simply don't experience the same level of emotional arousal when confronted with potentially frustrating circumstances. People are born with different temperaments.

 

Things the kids do that my husband experiences frustration and irritation over simply aren't irritating to me. Few things are.

[Joker]

I never feel violent when angry. I'm most likely to just cry.

This is me. When I get seriously angry, I cry. I can't control it and I find it very embarrassing.

[MyThreeSons]

:huh: I could not be friends with such a person.

 

To be clear, the man condemns the conclusion that blacks are in any way inherently inferior. He simply stands by his statement that anyone who says they understand the frustration is giving an excuse to "black rage". 

[MyThreeSons]

And some people simply don't experience the same level of emotional arousal when confronted with potentially frustrating circumstances. People are born with different temperaments.

 

Things the kids do that my husband experiences frustration and irritation over simply aren't irritating to me. Few things are.

 

Absolutely. For example, I really don't get road rage. Not to the extent of ever doing anything more than saying something in the confines of my own car, anyway.

 

As a teacher at Co-op, I have found that there are some hot-button issues for me that really get under my skin when it comes to the students' behavior. Some of them don't bother other teachers as much, and there are some things that I don't even notice that are big deals to others. None of them are big enough to make me even think about wanting to punch someone or something.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is me. When I get seriously angry, I cry. I can't control it and I find it very embarrassing.

 

I'm so past caring.  LOL

 

But yeah it's not always the most ideal thing. 

[creekland]

1. Punching, no, but throwing things and kicking yes. And it took me a longer time than most to grow out of automatically doing it, whether I would have wanted to or not if I'd been able to calm down.

 

2. I'm sure most children have experienced that feeling. Anger is a normal human emotion.

 

3. Absolutely, and I regularly pat myself on the back for being grown-up enough to cool down rather than immediately doing just what I want. (Really, it took me a long time to get to that point.)

 

4. Sure. We all have feelings. We all have impulses. But acting on our violent impulses is frequently unhelpful and usually unethical as well. Part of growing up is learning to not do all the dumb things we want to do just because that's what we want to do right now - and another part is learning to sympathize with other people's stupid choices even as you know they were a bad idea. So you can absolutely say "I get that you were really mad when your brother broke your game, and he and I will be having a long talk about using other people's things without permission - and even with permission he was being too careless! - but violence was not the answer in this situation and I think you're old enough to know it" without any hypocrisy.

 

You and I apparently came from the same mold, or at least, very very similar.

 

It took me a long time to "grow up" to be honest.  I may not always be there, but I'm a bit better than if you had met me as a youngster.  I've mainly trained myself to walk away from situations.

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way.  :crying:

 

Yikes!  I guess I'd be walking away from that situation, but feeling like :cursing: .

[AK_Mom4]

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way. :crying:

The pastor's statement would make me want to punch him.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way.  :crying:

 

Bless his heart?  Seriously, this is just bull.  I would think you an extra strong person to feel that way, but not act on it.  I can't brag about that because I literally don't ever feel that way.  So it's no struggle for me. It's just me being me.

[albeto.]

I asked him what I asked here: Haven't you ever felt so angry or frustrated that you wanted to hit someone or something? And his answer was that no, he has NEVER felt that way. I find that inconceivable. 

 

As I started reading through this thread, the first question that came to my mind was, "Is this person you're talking about a Christian"? I wondered because it seems to draw on that whole idea that if you look at a woman with lust in your heart you've already committed adultery with her. If someone believes this to be a statement of truthiness, then maybe feeling like they want to punch someone would mean they've already committed violence in their heart. Just a guess, though, until I read on...

 

I also tend to reflexively clench my fists. I used to be a yeller and a door-slammer. By the grace of God, those are rare reactions from me these days. 

 

You're right, of course, that people react to things internally in different ways. Thinking about this gave a flash of insight into this man: perhaps he truly cannot understand the concept of "understanding but not condoning". I don't believe he's a liar, so he must really believe he has NEVER (his emphasis) been that frustrated or angry. I wonder if his mother would confirm that even as a child, he never got that angry or frustrated.

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way.   :crying:

 

And lo and behold, he's a pastor to boot. That he counsels people to believe this completely foolish (if not dangerous) idea is frustrating to those of us who are neighbors and coworkers and friends of people who don't know how to accurately identify and solve problems. I'll go out on a limb here and say my gut reaction is to assume this guy is a jerk and a hypocrite. 

 

To add further context to the discussion, we were specifically talking about recent events in Baltimore. I had posted a quote from Martin Luther King Jr, wherein he spoke to the idea of understanding that riots and looting erupt out of a frustration of not being heard. I made it clear that neither I nor MLKjr was condoning violence -- we were both simply saying that we understood that level of frustration that led to it. 

 

His response was that MLK's statement assumes that there is an inherent moral deficiency in the black man, that he saw the black man as less evolved than the white man and not made in God's image. He said that MLKjr was saying that blacks were incapable of controlling themselves when confronted with such frustrations. I countered that there are numerous writings and speeches by MLKjr that clearly show that is simply not true. My friend stands by his statement that saying one understands that level of frustration is also condoning the following action. 

 

Jerk, check. Oh look, and racist, and self-indulgent, too. This guy is responsible for training an entire community about what the Christian faith really is, what Jesus' message really was. He's a Real Christian in his mind, for sure, and probably in the mind of many of his congregants. Great. 

 

I guess some people really are capable of always responding to an extreme frustration with "I know God is in control, even in this situation. He has put this adversity in my life for a reason. I will respond in humble submission and let Him work through this to mature me." I am not yet there, and I can remember being even farther away from there than I am now. 

 

What does that mean to let God take care of it, other than to accept what happens without complaining? The idea that submission to people and circumstances is more valuable that identifying a problem and solving it is problematic in many ways, imo. I wouldn't encourage you to strive for that. I'd hope you learn to not feel guilty for empowering yourself, certainly in such a way that you don't find yourself at the mercy of unethical people and and unjustifiable circumstances. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

At the end of the day, he is a human being like you.  He has the potential to be wrong.

 

I see nothing wrong with working on the angry ragey feelings because I think that would be stressful.  But feeling like punching someone is not the same as punching someone.  Big Brother is not going to come and get you.

 

 

[Anne in CA]

I also tend to reflexively clench my fists. I used to be a yeller and a door-slammer. By the grace of God, those are rare reactions from me these days. 

 

You're right, of course, that people react to things internally in different ways. Thinking about this gave a flash of insight into this man: perhaps he truly cannot understand the concept of "understanding but not condoning". I don't believe he's a liar, so he must really believe he has NEVER (his emphasis) been that frustrated or angry. I wonder if his mother would confirm that even as a child, he never got that angry or frustrated.

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way.  :crying:

I think this is EXTREMELY disturbing. I cant imagine how many people he might eventually turn away from the faith altogether with this view. Hopefully is church is really, really tiny. If it isn't, it will be the more he teaches this, lol.

[Heidi]

Oh I remember the last time I was that angry. I kicked a wall, and it happened to be cement. It was memorable.

[jewellsmommy]

I would not want someone counseling me like that.  

 

I would wonder if he has a lot of suppressed anger but I do acknowledge that we all react to things differently.  When ds (an Aspie) was little, he was unable to label his anger as anger and would adamantly insist that he was not angry but was "unhappy".  We worked a lot on being able to express emotions verbally.  In his case he did express it with punching (walls) so expressing it verbally was a form of dealing with it while still controlling it.  

 

I wonder if he says that Jesus was angry towards God when he overturned the tables in the temple?  

 

I immediately thought of this when I read the op's further info. Righteous indignation is certainly a real thing and is not against God. Whenever we learn of a wrong or abuse against a child, for instance, would be this. Sure, getting mad because I was caught speeding is a different matter.

 

Besides, God is holy and loving and can take it even if my anger is directed him. I can't imagine how that pastor effectively ministers to people. :confused1:

[Tanaqui]

Don't take this the wrong way, but your friend is an ignorant jerk who has no business counseling anybody.

[goldberry]

.

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. 

 

Unhealthy. 

 

. I explain to my daughter that everyone has their flaws they have to work on. After 34 years, I can say I've made a lot of progress, but I'm certainly not perfect yet. I wish for my kids' sake they didn't have the same flaw. It's not fun.

 

Healthy.

[Kiara.I]

You're right, of course, that people react to things internally in different ways. Thinking about this gave a flash of insight into this man: perhaps he truly cannot understand the concept of "understanding but not condoning". I don't believe he's a liar, so he must really believe he has NEVER (his emphasis) been that frustrated or angry. I wonder if his mother would confirm that even as a child, he never got that angry or frustrated.

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way.  :crying:

 

Utter dismissal and condemnation of a person's situation is not known to be an effective counselling tool.  A person struggling with anger does not need shame and condemnation heaped on them, but TOOLS.  Maybe prayer.  They need *walking alongside*, not superior judgement. 

 

 

To add further context to the discussion, we were specifically talking about recent events in Baltimore. I had posted a quote from Martin Luther King Jr, wherein he spoke to the idea of understanding that riots and looting erupt out of a frustration of not being heard. I made it clear that neither I nor MLKjr was condoning violence -- we were both simply saying that we understood that level of frustration that led to it. 

 

His response was that MLK's statement assumes that there is an inherent moral deficiency in the black man, that he saw the black man as less evolved than the white man and not made in God's image. He said that MLKjr was saying that blacks were incapable of controlling themselves when confronted with such frustrations. I countered that there are numerous writings and speeches by MLKjr that clearly show that is simply not true. My friend stands by his statement that saying one understands that level of frustration is also condoning the following action. 

 

Er...I think that MLK might have been saying that ANY group of people that was so unheard might feel tempted to lash out.  It's not speaking to a moral failing of one particular group that a *different* group was not, at a similar time, unheard to the same level and equally frustrated.  His argument isn't logical.

[Rosie_0801]

Why make a virtue out of not understanding others?

[SproutMamaK]

Your friend's logic has more holes than Swiss cheese. My heart breaks a little for the people he counsels.

[Jean in Newcastle]

To add further context to the discussion, we were specifically talking about recent events in Baltimore. I had posted a quote from Martin Luther King Jr, wherein he spoke to the idea of understanding that riots and looting erupt out of a frustration of not being heard. I made it clear that neither I nor MLKjr was condoning violence -- we were both simply saying that we understood that level of frustration that led to it. 

 

His response was that MLK's statement assumes that there is an inherent moral deficiency in the black man, that he saw the black man as less evolved than the white man and not made in God's image. He said that MLKjr was saying that blacks were incapable of controlling themselves when confronted with such frustrations. I countered that there are numerous writings and speeches by MLKjr that clearly show that is simply not true. My friend stands by his statement that saying one understands that level of frustration is also condoning the following action. 

OK - here I think we are talking about a couple of different things.  I don't think that rioting and looting are equivalent to planned protests such as what MLK promoted.  

 

Sure frustration and anger can lead to someone wanting to lash out.  But I don't understand putting aside all self control and logic to riot and loot what are often the very neighborhoods that were marginalized to begin with.  I don't think I'm racist for saying that.  I don't understand it when it happens in Europe.  I don't understand it when it happens in the Middle East.  I don't understand it when it happens in Baltimore.  I obviously understand that it does happen and some of the history behind why it has happened in different places.  But I personally do not understand that as any kind of a solution.  

[Mimm]

To be clear, the man condemns the conclusion that blacks are in any way inherently inferior. He simply stands by his statement that anyone who says they understand the frustration is giving an excuse to "black rage". 

 

So the ability to empathize and put yourself in another's shoes is what he's condemning? Charming.

[Mimm]

The fact that someone like this is a spiritual leader is depressing to me.

[elfgivas]

I also tend to reflexively clench my fists. I used to be a yeller and a door-slammer. By the grace of God, those are rare reactions from me these days. 

 

You're right, of course, that people react to things internally in different ways. Thinking about this gave a flash of insight into this man: perhaps he truly cannot understand the concept of "understanding but not condoning". I don't believe he's a liar, so he must really believe he has NEVER (his emphasis) been that frustrated or angry. I wonder if his mother would confirm that even as a child, he never got that angry or frustrated.

 

The man is a pastor. Evidently, he counsels people that if they are angry about anything, they are wrong, because that is ultimately anger against God, since He sovereignly allowed that situation to take place. I think I would be extremely frustrated to be counseled that way.  :crying:

 

in the biblical greek, "blessed are the meek" uses the word "praotes"  which is aristotle's idea of having the right amount of anger at the right things.  ie.  Jesus isn't condemning anger, just irrational/inappropriate anger.  there are times (clearing the temple) when Jesus thought that an expression of anger was appropriate.

 

people express anger differently.  as a child, i had a sibling who hit and kicked.  i threw things.... until the day i thru a music box at him, and as it sailed thru the air, started fervently praying "miss him, please miss him".  and that was the last time i threw something.  from then until this day, when i get angry enough, i just burst into tears, because words aren't enough?  its definitely not that i don't get angry or frustrated, just that hitting has never been how that came out.

 

re his comments about Baltimore.... it sounds a whole lot like racial prejudice to me, and nothing at all to do with anger or the expression of it.

 

fwiw,

ann

[MyThreeSons]

OK - here I think we are talking about a couple of different things.  I don't think that rioting and looting are equivalent to planned protests such as what MLK promoted.  

 

Sure frustration and anger can lead to someone wanting to lash out.  But I don't understand putting aside all self control and logic to riot and loot what are often the very neighborhoods that were marginalized to begin with.  I don't think I'm racist for saying that.  I don't understand it when it happens in Europe.  I don't understand it when it happens in the Middle East.  I don't understand it when it happens in Baltimore.  I obviously understand that it does happen and some of the history behind why it has happened in different places.  But I personally do not understand that as any kind of a solution.  

 

And neither did MLKjr. In fact, he said,  "Now what I'm saying is this: I would like for all of us to believe in non-violence, but I'm here to say tonight that if every Negro in the United States turns against non-violence, I'm going to stand up as a lone voice and say, 'This is the wrong way!' "

 

and 

 

"I will never change in my basic idea that non-violence is the most potent weapon available to the Negro in his struggle for freedom and justice. I think for the Negro to turn to violence would be both impractical and immoral."

 

and

 

 "I would hope that we can avoid riots because riots are self-defeating and socially destructive."