s/o - question about thoughts regarding suicide

[StaceyinLA]

I am genuinely curious about this. I will readily admit to having no direct experience with suicide other than my ex's 2 attempts (which were more attention seeking than legitimate attempts, and I'm not saying that to be callous; in his case it is the truth).

 

Why do some believe it is a brave thing to do, while others feel it is a cowardly way out? I'm truly not sure where I stand. I can certainly see where someone could suffer illnesses (mental and physical) that would make this seem like the right decision, but I have heard of other situations (and certainly had my ex succeeded I believe it would've been true of his case), where it truly seems like a weakness.

 

What do you think, and what colors your view regarding suicide?

[DawnM]

I haven't had my coffee yet, so this may not be a fully formulated thought.

 

I don't think it is cowardly or brave.  I think it just is.  Normally the person feels there is truly no other way out of the misery they are in.  Deep depression, deep sorrow, whatever the mental chasm is at the time, they see no end.

 

 

[creekland]

I don't know that it's brave or cowardly to the person actually doing it.  I think those are sound bites the rest of us use based upon how we feel in the individual case.

 

Students at school who have committed suicide have usually done so in the heat of the moment rather than giving themselves time to adjust to something new (break up of a relationship or parental divorce, new medical diagnosis, stress from getting a bad grade).  I think in those cases it's merely a lack of experience regarding life.

 

We have not had a bullied student do so, but I expect their situation would be an overwhelming feeling of not fitting in and not seeing how that could be better in the future or with some behavioral therapy, etc.

 

Adults who do so can feel as if they've irreparably messed up their lives or that they don't fit in and see no alternative (whether one exists or not in the former situation).

 

Then there can be medical deals with lack of quality of life as determined by the individual.  That's a biggie that likely is not truly understandable by those who look in from the outside without truly feeling what is going on.  There's the whole physician assisted aspect of this one (pro/con), so it has no easy answer.

 

Coward or brave?  Neither.  Lack of understanding about life or its options or serious life/medical issues and their consequences are the issue - and those vary.

[kroe1]

One should not lump all suicide attempts and suicides into one category. Each is as different as snowflakes.

 

Having said that, there are some clues. For example, if someone swallows a handful of pills and immediately calls an ambulance, then it might be attention seeking.

 

If someone picks an important date in a loved one's life to use a gun on himself, then it might be a "get even" attempt.

 

if someone is relatively happy in life but decides he doesn't want to get old or die of a particular illness, then that is just a preference and doesn't have anything to do with depression.

 

Many suicides are merely accidents.

 

There are innumerable reasons to kill oneself. It is impossible for me to categorize all into one.

[DawnM]

How can they be accidents.

 

The definition of suicide is that it is on purpose:

 

su·i·cide

ˈso͞oiˌsīd/

noun

 

1. 1.

   the action of killing oneself intentionally.

   "he committed suicide at the age of forty"

   synonyms: self-destruction, taking one's own life, killing oneself, self-murder

   "was it suicide or murder?"

   •  
   •  

      
   •  

      

      

verb

 

1. 1.

   intentionally kill oneself.

    

 

One should not lump all suicide attempts and suicides into one category. Each is as different as snowflakes.

Having said that, there are some clues. For example, if someone swallows a handful of pills and immediately calls an ambulance, then it might be attention seeking.

If someone picks an important date in a loved one's life to use a gun on himself, then it might be a "get even" attempt.

if someone is relatively happy in life but decides he doesn't want to get old or die of a particular illness, then that is just a preference and doesn't have anything to do with depression.

Many suicides are merely accidents.

There are innumerable reasons to kill oneself. It is impossible for me to categorize all into one.

 

[creekland]

 

How can they be accidents.

 

 

 

Some tend to only want attention or want to get high by stressing the body.  They don't actually want to die.

 

Some drug users end up dying, but didn't mean to do so.

 

I suppose technically they might not be suicide since the intention wasn't there, but that's what they're still called.

 

It's totally different from "other" causes like medical issues.

[FaithManor]

My aunt attempted suicide and nearly succeeded. She was dangerously depressed and not being treated properly, her GP and husband sloughed it off and told her to "buck up", and she was injured and in tremendous physical pain which was also was being largely ignored under the " suck it up buttercup" philosophy. Days stretched into weeks and she just simply could not go on. She did not have the physical or mental strength to continue. The result was an overdose and they barely saved her.

 

It just simply is. There is no moral or character value that can be placed on it. If you have never lost the will to live, if you have never been in so much pain either physical or mental that you simply can not manage one more day, then you can't really understand it.It is not cowardly, brave, or anything else but tragic.

 

 

My aunt, for what it is worth to those who question it as a spiritual failing, was a devoted Jesus loving, God fearing, church going, Jesus preaching follower. In that physiological state, suffering trumped reason pure and simple. Faith requires one to be able to mentally process doctrine and relationship in a powerfully cognizant manner. She didn't have that ability at the time. It wasn't a "spiritual" issue. Depression damages the brain. It's a disease. Chronic pain has physiological effects on the brain that overrun critical thinking. It is not a spiritual, moral , character problem.

 

My other paternal aunt is schizophrenic. When she is on her meds, she is somewhat okay. When she is off, she is a danger to herself and others. She is currently off because she thinks she has been healed. We can't reason with her and she is dangerous again so no one can take her in to their home. The state will not force her into care. The hallucinations and delusions are getting very intense so it is really only a matter of when, not if. My cousins already have funeral plans made. Mental health care in this nation is a joke!

 

[Rosie_0801]

I think ultimately our lives belong to ourselves. Others may "own shares," so to speak, but we are our own major shareholder.

[marbel]

I don't think cowardly or brave are the right words.  I don't know what the right words are, but to me those just don't fit.

 

It takes a certain amount of resolve to kill oneself, I think.  We have a desire for self-preservation.  It cannot be easy to pull the trigger, jump off the bridge, etc.  But I don't think that's bravery. The main thing I think about when someone commits suicide are the people left behind particularly if the person is a parent.  Then the word "selfish" comes to mind but if there is mental illness, that doesn't fit either. 

 

It's just too complicated to categorize.   I think there is a desire to categorize because we think that will help us make sense of it.  I've not known many people who killed themselves but I could never make sense of it.

 

[kiwik]

<p>

 

How can they be accidents.

 

The definition of suicide is that it is on purpose:

su·i·cide

ˈso͞oiˌsīd/

 

noun

 

•  

  1.

   

  the action of killing oneself intentionally.

  "he committed suicide at the age of forty"

  synonyms: self-destruction, taking one's own life, killing oneself, self-murder

   

   

  "was it suicide or murder?"

   

•  

•  

   

•  

   

   

 

 

verb

•  

  1.

  intentionally kill oneself.

   

Sometimes you are just so tired, so weary to the bone with the fight to keep going through depression. You don't want to die you just want a break and to sleep and not to feel. It is easy to take too much. It is also easy to take to much and then panic and call for help. If you die suicide is assumed, if you call the ambulance people say you were attention seeking. In a way that is TRUE but only because you couldn't handle it yourself and needed help.

 

Here it is almost impossible to get help unless you attempt suicide and I bet there are people desperate enough to stage an attempt to get the help they need but accidentally suceed.

 

I have never fallen over the edge but I have got close enough to see the rocks below.

[StaceyinLA]

Depression is a disease.

 

Suicide is a symptom of the disease.

 

Suicide is not selfish, although it feels that way to those left behind.

 

Suicide is not a moral issue any more than dying of cancer is a moral issue.

 

Saying these things does not mean I believe in glamorising suicide.

 

Nor does it mean that there is no hope for those suffering depression. Or no hope or treatment for the person considering suicide.

 

(When I say depression, I mean major depressive episodes - clinical depression - not sadness, grief, the blues, being down.)

 

~

 

Suicide attempts should never be written off as 'attention seeking'. One of the best predictors of suicide is previous suicide attempts, so taking all attempts seriously is a really good idea.

 

~

 

I'm not interested in what the general public think about suicide. I'm interested ONLY in what health professionals - the people who actually study this tragic outcome of depression - can tell us about it.

 

It's one of those things where I'm not sure expressing opinion has an awful lot of use, to be honest.

 

What we need is good information about depression and suicidal ideation, so people can help themselves and others a bit better.

 

Anyway, just my opinion. YMMV.

I agree depression is a disease; many in my family have dealt with depression. Are suicides committed by others who aren't depressed? If so, those suicides wouldn't be able to be considered a symptom of depression, but caused by something else.

 

My question was what people think about it and what colors their views. Obviously I realize this won't necessarily be the same as what health professionals think. I don't necessarily believe the opinions are necessarily useful information either, but it doesn't make me wonder any less what others' opinions are.

 

As far as the attention-seeking comment, I think when you invite your father over to let him find you with a gun to your head, or take 100 pills then walk inside and tell someone you just took 100 pills, you are seeking something, be it attention or help. In my ex's situation, it truly was attention. I realize other scenarios may not be the same.

[creekland]

(When I say depression, I mean major depressive episodes - clinical depression - not sadness, grief, the blues, being down.)

 

 

But... there have been a couple at our school who did commit suicide just due to circumstances at the time - esp relationship issues.  It doesn't always happen without more warning of depression and typical signs, but it sure can.

 

I will never fault those who choose it for non-fixable medical circumstances personally.  I don't feel that's depression or any sort of brain issue of that matter.  That's a personal lifestyle choice/decision.

[StaceyinLA]

I don't know the reality of your situation.

 

'Attention seeking' is a phrase used to minimise what's going on. I'm speaking in general, not in reply to anyone who has posted.

 

The phrase 'cry for help' is probably more accurate in some situations.

Ok I understand. I thought you were more specifically addressing my op. And I agree; I'm sure many are cries for help. Our experience was a bit different with my ex (who was already my ex at the time), but I realize that was probably an exception.

[Vera]

I think ultimately our lives belong to ourselves. Others may "own shares," so to speak, but we are our own major shareholder.

I agree. I don't think that we have the right to judge.

[creekland]

No, you don't always get warnings. Sometimes it hits out of the blue. Terrible.

 

It's definitely always sad and tragic in these situations as one just wishes they could have shown the kids that there's always a future after a relationship ends or a bad grade is given.  My personal thought is that they just don't have the experience to know that the sun will rise again in the morning.  It's not bravery or cowardice.  It's lack of life experience.

 

I've used these experiences to try to remember to encourage kids and realize they do need to know there's hope for tomorrow when life is getting them down - never to assume they know that.  Failure happens (and is good experience according to reports), but we need to be there for kids when it is happening to some extent.

[kiwik]

The traumatic event suffering is a choice. Some people walk away, mentally or physically to escape the trauma. Others cope and keep the mind. Your friend may benefit from meteting other people who have survived trauma and rebuilt their lives.

You don't choose. People who are disposed to depression are less able to walk away or move on - they get depressed. If someone drugs a bunch of people without their knowledge and one of them has a severe reaction and the others don't, that person didn't choose to be more affected than the others. They were more affected because they were more suseptible to the drug. Some people suffer depression or PTDS. It is not because they chose to do so. Many of them fought long and hard but just couldn't do it.

[catz]

I don't think cowardly or brave are meaningful words either but applied when someone feels they must say something.  I had one bout of depression and anxiety after the very difficult pregnancy and birth of my first (that did literally almost kill me - I needed blood transfusions).  I didn't understand at all before that, but now I do understand all too well.  It feels like an inevitable thing.  My depression manifested as a unrelenting physical pain that felt like it was killing me and no doctor would take seriously.  It just felt like dying anyway.  So giving people with a diagnosed physical illness a pass and thinking differently about those who "chose" it due to depression is not meaningful to me.  I believe it does not feel like a choice when people get to that point. 

 

I also think it's extremely unlikely a perfectly happy, well adjusted person has a small incident and would commit suicide due to that.  We had a couple suicides in high school that seemed out of the blue, but if you really stopped and looked at what those kids had really gone through the previous couple of years, it was more understandable.  That doesn't mean the people around them were aware and knew.  It just means that they were probably suffering silently.

[marbel]

A ten year old can walk away from his father who has just had a stroke that nearly killed him and caused permanent brain injury and an extreme personality change ? The 16 year old dealing with the fallout of that and suffering clinical depression triggered by these events can 'just cope and build the mind' ?

 

He should just mentally remove himself from the situation, seeing as he's too young to leave ?

 

I'm not the poster you're responding to.  I don't disagree with you but this make me think:

 

Why is it that some people can come through these things and go on to lead "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives, while others are beset by depression and/or other mental illness?    It is not a character issue, or a moral issue.  But some people can come back from those experiences and some can't.  Is the difference brain chemistry, or ??

 

These are rhetorical questions; I am not really expecting answers. I'm not sure anyone can know. 

[kiwik]

Like everything, a mixture of genetic and environmental factors.

And luck.

[Cera]

I certainly don't think it is brave.  The brave thing to do is to stand up and fight, and continue to do so until you win.  To give up and let mental illness win is not brave.  

 

I don't necessarily see it as cowardly though, just certainly not brave.

 

(and I feel differently about those who choose dr assisted suicide in the midst of certain, very painful, death).

[FaithManor]

Severe anemia, mild concussion (I don't even want to consider the horror show that is a bad one) and PTSD are teaching me a thing or two about what it is like to go from being a a strong person mentally to a much more easily shaken one. Happy day for me an attempt to discuss this with a loved one in my extended family has resulted in being set straight. I apparently am weak willed, possibly "backsliding" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean, and  should "get a grip". So helpful. My guess is that since this is the prevailing attitude in America, these messages only assist people to the cliff.

 

Moral of the story, the fastest way to be written off by friends and family is to admit you aren't well. My guess is that a lot of people who need help do not believe they can say that outloud. They aren't stupid. They know what people will say, the hen pecking, the judgment, the insults.

 

Even the teens mentioned who seem to impulsively kill themselves over something like a break up are probably actually kids who have been in abject internal pain, smiled on the outside and tried to seem fine, while something was very wrong underneath. This is not a kind society in which to ask for help and especially in our education culture.

[creekland]

Severe anemia, mild concussion (I don't even want to consider the horror show that is a bad one) and PTSD are teaching me a thing or two about what it is like to go from being a a strong person mentally to a much more easily shaken one. Happy day for me an attempt to discuss this with a loved one in my extended family has resulted in being set straight. I apparently am weak willed, possibly "backsliding" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean, and  should "get a grip". So helpful. My guess is that since this is the prevailing attitude in America, these messages only assist people to the cliff.

 

Moral of the story, the fastest way to be written off by friends and family is to admit you aren't well. My guess is that a lot of people who need help do not believe they can say that outloud. They aren't stupid. They know what people will say, the hen pecking, the judgment, the insults.

 

Even the teens mentioned who seem to impulsively kill themselves over something like a break up are probably actually kids who have been in abject internal pain, smiled on the outside and tried to seem fine, while something was very wrong underneath. This is not a kind society in which to ask for help and especially in our education culture.

 

Well... I'll offer  :grouphug: and feel free to vent personally in a pm whenever you like.

 

I definitely "get" the medical stuff now.

[Word Nerd]

 

Moral of the story, the fastest way to be written off by friends and family is to admit you aren't well. My guess is that a lot of people who need help do not believe they can say that outloud. They aren't stupid. They know what people will say, the hen pecking, the judgment, the insults.

 

 

Or they wrongly assume that people will judge and insult them and will not be supportive if they share their struggles because the illness skews their perception of reality.

[BrookValley.]

Believing mental illness is some sort of choice sounds so medieval-ish. Ymmv, sure, but some things have actually been proven to be incorrect and outdated....

 

Almost exactly what I was about to post. Not only that, but it just serves to perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness, which only serves a roadblock between those who are suffering and proper mental health care.

[swellmomma]

hmm, interesting so my son's depression is caused by the life choices he has made adding up.  yeah, uh no.  Fortunately he is not contemplating suicide at this point, the last time he vocalized that he was he was 7 and had it planned out.  what life choices could he have had piled up at age 7 to lead to him wanting to die?  That he didn't share the monkey bars at the playground?  

I would like to believe he no longer thinks about it, but it is possible he still does and just doesn't vocalize it.  I know that feeling all too well.  Judgements are made, and held against you if you ask for help so those who could really use it simply don't ask especially when it means risking everything, and it is not just a perceived risk when asking for help in the past resulted in nearly losing the exact reason you keep hanging on.  

When it comes to people who appear to be killing themselves over temporary situations like a relationship ending, job loss etc. I think that even if those people appeared just fine prior to that incident they were not and that incident was just the tipping point towards that decision.  Many many people walk around everyday with a smile on their face, functioning normally, holding jobs, helping others, running their homes etc but still have this constant turmoil, these dark secrets of how they feel deep inside.  They still never feel loved, they don't even know what love feels like to feel it for others however they can put on a good show.  We saw that with Robin Williams and yet he is far from the only one. I believe that those people that seem to be killing themselves over relatively minor situations have actually had those feelings far far longer.  In fact I believe someone could have them for so long that to them that is the normal way of feeling because they have never known anything different.  Depression does not just manifest in that image we picture of the person who spends all day crying unable to properly function etc.  I believe in fact that for most people with depression it does not manifest that way and I believe that there is a large portion of the population that have depression and don't know it because they have never known anything different so those negative feelings are the status quo for them. 

[umsami]

Why do some believe it is a brave thing to do, while others feel it is a cowardly way out? I'm truly not sure where I stand. I can certainly see where someone could suffer illnesses (mental and physical) that would make this seem like the right decision, but I have heard of other situations (and certainly had my ex succeeded I believe it would've been true of his case), where it truly seems like a weakness.

 

What do you think, and what colors your view regarding suicide?

 

Not my personal opinion, but I think for those who view it as a cowardly thing are probably influenced by religious views regarding suicide.  I know that the Catholic church taught that it was a sin.  My best friend's best guy friend committed suicide on her 16th birthday.  The church refused to basically bury him.  That shattered my BF, who loved being Catholic and had gone through 8+ years of Catholic school with her best guy friend.

 

In Islam, suicide is viewed as "haram"/forbidden.  Because of that, people whose family members have committed suicide don't get the community support they need after the death of their loved ones.  Because of that, people who are suicidal often won't seek out help because they are shamed of even wanting to kill themselves, if that makes any sense.

 

I don't remember much teachings about suicide growing up Presbyterian.  I'm pretty sure the church would still give you a funeral and try to support the family.

 

My personal belief is that God is a loving, compassionate God who would only show compassion to somebody who felt so horrible that they ended their life. I think the prohibition on suicide is not meant to shame, but to hopefully encourage people to stick it out, so to speak…to give them a chance to come out of that depressive episode.

 

For those who think it's courageous, I remember when I was suicidal I thought that.  One thing that helps, strangely, when I get suicidal thoughts is to ask myself what would I do if tomorrow I got a call and I had been diagnosed with cancer?  Answer? I'd fight it.  I'd fight it tooth and nail to try and hang on as long as possible for my kids.  So when I have the suicidal thoughts, I ask myself, can I fight those just as hard?  That usually helps, and these days they are rare (thankfully) and don't tend to last like they did.    But I also know that for many suicide is not a planned out, thought out decision.  It's a sudden decision.  It's a rash act.  So one needs to guard against that as well.

 

 

There are many people who have incredible pain, both real physical pain and real emotional pain.  There are many people who feel incredibly alone. Some have families and loved ones around them, others truly are alone.  It takes a lot to kill oneself.  RW had attempted to  slit his wrists first.  I also think that some people admire the living by one's own terms aspects of suicide.

 

Sorry for the rambling. :)

[LizzyBee]

I tend to agree with those who said it's neither.  But why is it perceived that way?

 

For ex, a friend's husband committed suicide, leaving her behind to deal with a farm that was in massive debt and a son with developmental disabilities.  It seemed cowardly of him to leave her to deal with all that alone, although of course he was in despair and not thinking about it rationally.

 

OTOH, when I've been depressed and thought of suicide, I wasn't "brave" enough to go through with it, because I felt that if I failed, it would send me even deeper into the abyss because I would look like a fool who was too stupid to even kill myself properly. It's hard to think of the right words to explain it, but I can see how someone who's been in that place might see suicide as a brave act.

 

I think in part, RW is seen as brave because apparently he did fight depression for many years before his suicide.

[maize]

It's definitely always sad and tragic in these situations as one just wishes they could have shown the kids that there's always a future after a relationship ends or a bad grade is given. My personal thought is that they just don't have the experience to know that the sun will rise again in the morning. It's not bravery or cowardice. It's lack of life experience.

 

I've used these experiences to try to remember to encourage kids and realize they do need to know there's hope for tomorrow when life is getting them down - never to assume they know that. Failure happens (and is good experience according to reports), but we need to be there for kids when it is happening to some extent.

I would wonder though if there might have been underlying depression making these kids more fragile before the precipitating event. Depression and suicidal thoughts are not necessarily obvious from the outside. My sister had suicidal thoughts for years before finally making an attempt, no one ever guessed--she was doing well in school, had friends, etc. but inside she was barely holding herself together. If someone is in that situation, an event that might seem quite trivial to a person with healthy brain function could easily push them over the edge. Unless we've been inside the person's brain, I am not sure we cam ever say there wasn't an underlying mental illness affecting their perceptions and decision making.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

I don't remember much teachings about suicide growing up Presbyterian.  I'm pretty sure the church would still give you a funeral and try to support the family.

 

<snip>

 

Yes, or at least they should.  My experience with this is limited to two instances of suicide, though, at different churches.  In both cases the church stood by them.  The funerals were beautiful, there was no talk of shame or sin. 

[Annie G]

Yes, or at least they should.  My experience with this is limited to two instances of suicide, though, at different churches.  In both cases the church stood by them.  The funerals were beautiful, there was no talk of shame or sin. 

 

My across-the-street neighbor's dh committed suicide about 8 years ago and they were practicing Catholics. The church had no problems with a funeral mass, burial, etc.    

[umsami]

My across-the-street neighbor's dh committed suicide about 8 years ago and they were practicing Catholics. The church had no problems with a funeral mass, burial, etc.    

 

Oh good (regarding the funeral mass, not the suicide).  The case I'm referring to happened 30 years ago, so I really am glad to hear that things have hopefully changed.

[bzymom]

The traumatic event suffering is a choice. Some people walk away, mentally or physically to escape the trauma. Others cope and keep the mind. Your friend may benefit from meteting other people who have survived trauma and rebuilt their lives.

This chafes me so much. People suffering as a result of trauma are choosing to do so?

 

Not in my experience. Ever.

 

I better move on to a cupcake thread before I am in trouble.

[wapiti]

.

 

[maize]

Depression is a disease.

 

Suicide is a symptom of the disease.

 

Suicide is not selfish, although it feels that way to those left behind.

 

Suicide is not a moral issue any more than dying of cancer is a moral issue.

 

Saying these things does not mean I believe in glamorising suicide.

 

Nor does it mean that there is no hope for those suffering depression. Or no hope or treatment for the person considering suicide.

 

(When I say depression, I mean major depressive episodes - clinical depression - not sadness, grief, the blues, being down.)

 

~

 

Suicide attempts should never be written off as 'attention seeking'. One of the best predictors of suicide is previous suicide attempts, so taking all attempts seriously is a really good idea.

 

~

 

 

 

What we need is good information about depression and suicidal ideation, so people can help themselves and others a bit better.

 

Anyway, just my opinion. YMMV.

Sadie, I agree with much of this but I think things are not quite so black and white as depicted here.

 

Here is my thinking: many, probably most, suicides result from mental illness, which profoundly affects a person's experience of life including their ability to make rational decisions and see alternative courses. If your perception is that life is utter misery, there is no hope for the future, and the only way to end the agony is death--suicide makes sense. Even deeply suicidal people, however, can sometimes learn therapy techniques to change and redirect their thinking--which introduces an element of choice. Depression is a cause of suicide, but it does not directly cause death the way cancer or a heart attack causes death. In the case of suicide, an actual action must take place for death to result.

 

In addition, I don't think that every suicide is the result of serious mental illness. Sometimes it is more situational in nature. Sometimes the precipitating emotion may be anger more than depression (I'm thinking especially of murder-suicides here). That some degree of mental and emotional compromise exists in maybe all suicide cases may be true, but then most of us live our lives with at least some degree of imperfect mental health. I just think the whole issue is complicated.

 

 

Here's a question: do you think Hitler's suicide, including its timing, was a direct and inevitable result organic mental illness?

[katilac]

My across-the-street neighbor's dh committed suicide about 8 years ago and they were practicing Catholics. The church had no problems with a funeral mass, burial, etc.    

 

There was a papal decree in 1983 that reversed the prohibition against burying those who committed suicide in Catholic cemeteries (side note: many other denominations used to have the same rule). 

 

So, it is no longer forbidden, but an individual priest may still refuse to preside over the funeral mass or allow burial in a church plot attached to his parish. 

[mommymilkies]

I think ultimately our lives belong to ourselves. Others may "own shares," so to speak, but we are our own major shareholder.

:iagree:

 

Depression is a disease.

 

Suicide is a symptom of the disease.

 

Suicide is not selfish, although it feels that way to those left behind.

 

Suicide is not a moral issue any more than dying of cancer is a moral issue.

 

Saying these things does not mean I believe in glamorising suicide.

 

Nor does it mean that there is no hope for those suffering depression. Or no hope or treatment for the person considering suicide.

 

(When I say depression, I mean major depressive episodes - clinical depression - not sadness, grief, the blues, being down.)

 

~

 

Suicide attempts should never be written off as 'attention seeking'. One of the best predictors of suicide is previous suicide attempts, so taking all attempts seriously is a really good idea.

 

~

 

 

 

What we need is good information about depression and suicidal ideation, so people can help themselves and others a bit better.

 

Anyway, just my opinion. YMMV.

 

Edited because I was having a hard time clarifying what I mean and I don't want to hurt people.   

Severe anemia, mild concussion (I don't even want to consider the horror show that is a bad one) and PTSD are teaching me a thing or two about what it is like to go from being a a strong person mentally to a much more easily shaken one. Happy day for me an attempt to discuss this with a loved one in my extended family has resulted in being set straight. I apparently am weak willed, possibly "backsliding" whatever the hell that is supposed to mean, and  should "get a grip". So helpful. My guess is that since this is the prevailing attitude in America, these messages only assist people to the cliff.

 

Moral of the story, the fastest way to be written off by friends and family is to admit you aren't well. My guess is that a lot of people who need help do not believe they can say that outloud. They aren't stupid. They know what people will say, the hen pecking, the judgment, the insults.

 

Even the teens mentioned who seem to impulsively kill themselves over something like a break up are probably actually kids who have been in abject internal pain, smiled on the outside and tried to seem fine, while something was very wrong underneath. This is not a kind society in which to ask for help and especially in our education culture.

:grouphug:

 

My view on suicide changed when I worked adult med/surg and hospice. I had a friend who committed suicide in high school and it made me and group of friends angry and sad.  But it's always easy to judge when you don't know the whole story or aren't terribly empathetic as a person.  When I worked with people who were often dying slow painful deaths, my viewpoint changed.  Why couldn't these people be in charge of how and when they left this world?  Who am I to tell them to suck it up and keep living in soul-wrenching pain? And then a battle with depression in myself has made me more empathetic.  Don't worry-don't call the cops, I'm not committing suicide.  But it has made me more empathetic to those who do. That's such a personal choice and it's not my business.  I can try to help those in need.  I can be there for them, but in the end, it's not up to me. It is neither brave nor cowardly.  It really rubs me wrong when people think those in pain should just "man up" and keep going.  They obviously have no idea what that person is going through. 

[FaithManor]

This chafes me so much. People suffering as a result of trauma are choosing to do so?

 

Not in my experience. Ever.

 

I better move on to a cupcake thread before I am in trouble.

Yep, me too. Apparently, waking up in cold sweats, hearts racing after dreaming about the accident and calling out for help in our sleep, is the result of a monumental character flaw in us to not just SUCK IT UP!

 

Kilts, cupcakes, rum, something different but not entering this discussion again!

[LucyStoner]

The traumatic event suffering is a choice. Some people walk away, mentally or physically to escape the trauma. Others cope and keep the mind. Your friend may benefit from meteting other people who have survived trauma and rebuilt their lives.

Uh, no. Even the most resilient survivors suffer. I've experienced several forms of trauma, including childhood rape. Coping is not a choice, it is not a function of superior strength and it does not mean that I did not suffer. Cause believe me, I was there and it was hell and it wasn't "a choice". Healing and recovering involved some choices but I was fortunate to be able to have those choices on the table at all. Some people don't. It is as much a function of happenstance as anything else.

[Dory]

I haven't read all the responses here, but since I've had a couple attempts, I might as well add my two cents worth. It's neither brave nor cowardly. It's just desperation. Sitting at the bottom of that black hole is hard. Sometimes it feels like the only way out is to kill myself. If I've spent numerous nights in a row with nightmares and flashbacks, sometimes the weight of it all just gets too heavy. I want out, but I have three kids who didn't choose to come into this world, I brought them into it and they deserve to have a mom. I have called help lines before when friends are hard to come by. Sometimes just talking to someone, someone just willing to throw me a line for a bit is helpful. I have in the past, talked about suicide, but I wasn't trying to manipulate or use it, so much as try and tell the other person that I was feeling desperate and hopeless and I needed a hand.

 

The whole suck it up and move on makes me lividly angry. I would walk away from my past if I was capable of doing so. People who talk like that have no idea how the mind works or what is actually going on.

[Mergath]

Neither. I think they have made life choices that have added up to changing their brain physically to the point of no return from depression,, rather like a diabetic that wont control the carb intake ends up with physical changes that mean he cant produce enough insulin. Some kill their body quickly, others slowly as all their choices add up. I think it all goes back to the soul...knowing why you are put on earth, and having the ability to do things that are satisfying to the soul.

 

Well.  That's about the most ignorant view of clinical depression I've heard yet.

 

Depression doesn't come from making bad life choices and not being a Christian.  Bad life choices come from depression because, as has been proven multiple times, people who are depressed basically just can't think clearly.  It's hard to make the right choice when your brain won't work.

 

You might want to reconsider blaming the mentally ill for their illness.   

[Dory]

The traumatic event suffering is a choice. Some people walk away, mentally or physically to escape the trauma. Others cope and keep the mind. Your friend may benefit from meteting other people who have survived trauma and rebuilt their lives.

 

yes because 4yo's are so capable of walking away physically, NOT. Mentally walking away does not negate the damage done on the body and mind, it just tends to put it on a back shelf until the child is older. Coping is just that, coping. Coping is not thriving or living well. I cope, that doesn't mean I don't struggle. Surviving doesn't mean thriving nor does it mean that depression, suicide attempts, extensive counseling, meds, and lots of other things aren't a part of that. Meeting other people doesn't make someone better anymore then me meeting other moms makes me a better mom. Just makes a person sometimes feel less alone. Believe me, meeting others with a background anything like mine made me realize that there is no real thriving after that. It made me feel more hopeless, not less.

[SKL]

What I don't understand is, why do we need to call it cowardly or brave?  It's tragic.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Neither. I think they have made life choices that have added up to changing their brain physically to the point of no return from depression,, rather like a diabetic that wont control the carb intake ends up with physical changes that mean he cant produce enough insulin. Some kill their body quickly, others slowly as all their choices add up. I think it all goes back to the soul...knowing why you are put on earth, and having the ability to do things that are satisfying to the soul.

 

Hmm, life choices changing brain chemistry? Possibly, in some cases. Sometimes brain chemistry is just messed up, just like sometimes people who make all the right food choices end up with Type I diabetes.

 

As for the original question, I agree with others that suicide shouldn't be thought of as brave or cowardly. I think people may assign those descriptors to help make meaning from the incomprehensible. I think people consider it "brave" when the person seems to be making a decision not to let something else take their lives, like the people who jumped on 9/11 or those diagnosed with terminal illnesses. People consider it "cowardly" when someone seems to have a good life, and they leave a family behind. But as I hope it's becoming clear, a person who commits suicide is not thinking rationally. Depression just alters everything to the extent that what is normally unthinkable is a viable option. 

[Word Nerd]

Not my personal opinion, but I think for those who view it as a cowardly thing are probably influenced by religious views regarding suicide. 

 

It's possible, but I think it's more pragmatic than that. Some may view it as cowardly or selfish because they are operating from the assumption that the suicide victim made a rational decision after carefully considering all the pros and cons, who else it would affect, what other options are available to change their outlook—the kind of thought process someone without a mental illness might have. But a mentally ill mind isn't working that way. Suicide isn't based an accurate perception of reality. It's hard for those of us who've never experienced that personally to even imagine what it would be like to reach the point where you would see suicide as the only solution. I would not presume to speak for anyone who has come to that point, but a loved one told me several years after her suicide attempt (and after she thankfully got the help she needed) that her thinking at that time was so skewed that she didn't think anyone would even care if she were gone. In her mind at the time, she wasn't thinking about how much killing herself would hurt her loved ones because she didn't think we loved her.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I'm not the poster you're responding to.  I don't disagree with you but this make me think:

 

Why is it that some people can come through these things and go on to lead "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives, while others are beset by depression and/or other mental illness?    It is not a character issue, or a moral issue.  But some people can come back from those experiences and some can't.  Is the difference brain chemistry, or ??

 

These are rhetorical questions; I am not really expecting answers. I'm not sure anyone can know. 

 

I don't think it's black and white, it's not a case that some people come back from something and others don't. It could look like someone is doing just fine after a traumatic event. They go to school or work, function pretty well, etc. They may go home and cry the rest of the night, or just sit in a dark room. Or maybe they go home and they're fine, but at some point down the line it catches up with them. Grief is not a linear thing. It's not like you wake up everyday feeling better than the previous day. You could be going along just fine for months and then something hits you and you're knocked out of commission for a week or two. 

 

But yes, I do believe brain chemistry differs and this will affect someone's response to a situation. If you already have some level of untreated depression and something traumatic happens, that could be the thing that pushes you over the edge, and you go into a much deeper depression. (That happened to me, and looking back it was the best thing that ever happened to me because I FINALLY got help, I could no longer pretend I was fine). 

 

And I'd just like to add that depression is not always in response to an event. Sometimes this terrible, physical feeling washes over you (in my case, it's like a sick feeling from my chest down) out of nowhere and you can't get rid of it. Or maybe there's not some dramatic physical feeling, just the sense that nothing is ever going to be okay again. Brain chemicals are powerful like that.

[LucyStoner]

I'm not the poster you're responding to. I don't disagree with you but this make me think:

 

Why is it that some people can come through these things and go on to lead "normal" (for lack of a better word) lives, while others are beset by depression and/or other mental illness? It is not a character issue, or a moral issue. But some people can come back from those experiences and some can't. Is the difference brain chemistry, or ??

 

These are rhetorical questions; I am not really expecting answers. I'm not sure anyone can know.

Some people smoke their whole lives and never get lung cancer. Some people never smoke and do get lung cancer. Unlike trauma, smoking is, at least initially, a choice. Lung cancers are not all the same or have the same causes. Depression can be triggered by something or by nothing. We have to delve into a person's genes and their gene expression and a whole host of environmental factors to get answers and it's not exactly cut and dry or readily/cheaply accessible information even in the instances where we can/possibly isolate for it already.

 

Brain chemistry, circumstances, how the people around them react.

[Joules]

Hmm, life choices changing brain chemistry? Possibly, in some cases. Sometimes brain chemistry is just messed up, just like sometimes people who make all the right food choices end up with Type I diabetes.

I would say life experiences change brain chemistry. An abused child or other victim does not choose to be a victim, but being a victim definitely changes lives and brains. In the same way, things like FAS can change the brain of a child. Or brain change can come in some random malfunction of the cells (just like cancer). And, of course, some people do also make bad choices, though many of those choices might just be the result of the brain chemistry rather than the cause (i.e. someone ends up deep in drug abuse as a way of dealing with the depression that they can't understand.)

[*Lulu*]

I would say life experiences change brain chemistry. An abused child or other victim does not choose to be a victim, but being a victim definitely changes lives and brains.

Thank you.

 

Exactly this.

[Dory]

I would say life experiences change brain chemistry. An abused child or other victim does not choose to be a victim, but being a victim definitely changes lives and brains. In the same way, things like FAS can change the brain of a child. Or brain change can come in some random malfunction of the cells (just like cancer). And, of course, some people do also make bad choices, though many of those choices might just be the result of the brain chemistry rather than the cause (i.e. someone ends up deep in drug abuse as a way of dealing with the depression that they can't understand.)

 

I could agree with this. My family is very prone to addictive type behaviors. It might be a choice for me to avoid them, but sometimes I will find myself already heading down that path without having noticed how I got there simply because compulsive shopping, alcohol, drugs, and manic type behaviour are soothing. Not that I do all of those, but that's the list I see myself and a couple other individuals in my family struggling with. I have also seen a couple of my brothers constantly doing high risk, adrenaline pumping type behaviour and try to stop, and are unable to because without the constant rush, they end up with depression problems. They have been like that since they were able to move as babies. Their solution, become firemen and paramedics. There are sometimes choices that help a person work with their struggles, but those choices are not always apparent or easy to find.

 

[bibiche]

Neither. I think they have made life choices that have added up to changing their brain physically to the point of no return from depression,, rather like a diabetic that wont control the carb intake ends up with physical changes that mean he cant produce enough insulin. Some kill their body quickly, others slowly as all their choices add up. I think it all goes back to the soul...knowing why you are put on earth, and having the ability to do things that are satisfying to the soul.

I have to say that this is probably the most deeply offensive thing I have every read on this board.

I truly hope no one close to you ever suffers from depression as your pronouncement demonstrates a stunning lack of knowledge and a profound lack of compassion.