myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I am not sure how to title this, or how to parent this quality. My eldest ds, 13, is a marvelous person. He's bright, enthusiastic, funny, and kind. He's got some amazing leadership qualities. BUT....just this morning.... He told his brother "It's not raining," as they looked out the window at the pouring rain. Then he argued that it wasn't raining because he couldn't see the rain even though we all could. I finally told him to go out onto the porch and stick his hand out so that he could actually feel the rain. And when his little brother shared how he felt about trying something new, ds13 told him that he hadn't really felt that way and started telling ds9 how he'd really felt and what ds9 had really seen. ?????? Then he started giving advice to his brothers about a rope course they'd done yesterday. A rope course that HE hadn't done, and which they had. The advice was...odd. It wouldn't have worked. This is common, a daily experience in our family for quite some time. He'll just start spouting something he's made up in his head and trying to overrun the experiences or knowledge of his brothers, or even his dad and I. I am STUMPED. It's as though his internal experiences are so real that he's not able to even realize that his insistence that incorrect information is correct and that his ideas are more real than the experiences of the people around him makes him sound foolish. Is this a teen boy thing? An older brother thing? More importantly, how do I help him temper this desire to help and share information with some...wisdom? Empathy? Balance? Help! Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Well, I don't have an immediate suggestion but that does seem odd. I have known people to start bragging about their own experiences when someone else talks about a success, but when he genuinely seems to be insisting that something like rain doesn't exist when it is coming down right in front of him, that seems like something more than just being a bit jealous or insecure of others accomplishments...has he ever had an evaluation through a neuropshychologist? Does he show signs of maybe giftedness coupled with something else, something you can't quite put your finger on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 It's as though his internal experiences are so real that he's not able to even realize that his insistence that incorrect information is correct and that his ideas are more real than the experiences of the people around him makes him sound foolish. Do you have reason to believe he's delusional? I ask because honestly, this sounds to me like a kid teasing his siblings, and then his mom when she doesn't recognize a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Is he able to stop? Is he just trying to be "funny"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I have no idea what the cause is but I know a couple adults that do this. They seem to have a deep-seated need to be an expert in all kinds of random things. They can't handle the cognitive dissonance of not being the center of attention or expert of the moment. Is it just a recent phase? Is he insecure and needing to build up his confidence with some kind of activity or skill or passion? Have you tried just asking him why he is saying X or how he things that makes others feel? (obviously in the right moment for a calm discussion). I will say that my 14 year old, who does not generally behave like this, was making a few obnoxious, know it all, I'm a baseball expert kind of comments about something recently at his younger brother's baseball game. In front of other families. After awhile I leaned over and quietly said to him "To others who don't know you and overhear the things you are saying, you're coming off as an a$$". He immediately understood my point (which I confirmed later on in private along with some more encouraging words). I don't necessarily recommend speaking to your child like that, just sharing my experience! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 It's very important to know: is he joking around? Is he serious? Especially about the rain. That sounds like he was joking around. If he's joking around, then joke back. If it's serious, then I don't have advice, but something needs to be done and I hope others have suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 He's not trying to be funny. It seems almost like a control issue with him. It happens most often with his younger brothers, but not always. He is impulsive and would probably have an ADD label were he in school. He's able to navigate homeschooling, even outside classes, successfully because I've been able to tailor his education to his needs. We're working on figuring out how to tell the difference between fact and opinion, and how to respect the experiences of others even when they are different from his own. I just don't want him to grow up to be That Guy. You know, the guy (or gal) who's always got an opinion to share, but hasn't necessarily tempered it with fact-checking or really even any thought, and is still always "right"? I worked with "That Guy" a long time ago and it was so difficult. No one took That Guy seriously, even when he was correct, because he was so often egregiously and loudly wrong. Ds is a good student. He's a good person. Just insufferable right now at times. I'm hoping he'll mostly outgrow it, and that I can help him learn to use his powers for the forces of good and wisdom. :p ETA: Yes, this is mostly recent. Maybe the last 6 months or so that it's gotten like this. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Gah. oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 So it sounds like he has a tendency to be a know-it-all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 But has this been going on for a very long time or has just sort of started? If this has been going on for a very long time, then just hoping he will grow out of it, when you don't even really know what "it" is seems unrealistic to me, TBH. Not sure how you would title it but you might try doing some searches on the internet.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 This could be unrelated, and I'm just throwing this out there because I knew someone who behaved in a similar way to your son, and she also had another problem. She could not tell the difference between her dreams and reality. For real. I can't remember if it was a sleep disorder or what, but she literally had a problem. I only mention this because you said he talks like his experiences are so real. Professional help might be necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Ds10 does similar things. It has come up mostly since we had Babyman. We think it is a dominance issue, and occasionally him trying to be funny. It is not a competency thing as he is in fact the resident expert on several things, both at our house and in his circle of family and friends. We usually deal with it by pointing out that he doesn't know much about that particular area, sometimes nicely and other times not so nicely (usually after he has steamrolled right over several nice attempts). We also talk about how the fact that he is smart doesn't mean he automatically knows things, just that he is able to learn most things quickly, and that every single person that we meet knows more than us about something and true wisdom/intelligence is recognizing that and learning what they can teach. And that just because he says a thing does not necessarily make it so - this sometimes requires independent documentation. For instance, last week I told him to look for something, he glanced and said he didn't see it. I told him to go look because he had not actually looked, and we wound up spending 15 minutes looking up various words in the dictionary before he conceded he had not "ascertained through the use of one's eyes" and therefore had glanced, not looked (yes, it takes forever to get anything done at our house). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Ds10 does similar things. It has come up mostly since we had Babyman. We think it is a dominance issue, and occasionally him trying to be funny. It is not a competency thing as he is in fact the resident expert on several things, both at our house and in his circle of family and friends. We usually deal with it by pointing out that he doesn't know much about that particular area, sometimes nicely and other times not so nicely (usually after he has steamrolled right over several nice attempts). We also talk about how the fact that he is smart doesn't mean he automatically knows things, just that he is able to learn most things quickly, and that every single person that we meet knows more than us about something and true wisdom/intelligence is recognizing that and learning what they can teach. And that just because he says a thing does not necessarily make it so - this sometimes requires independent documentation. For instance, last week I told him to look for something, he glanced and said he didn't see it. I told him to go look because he had not actually looked, and we wound up spending 15 minutes looking up various words in the dictionary before he conceded he had not "ascertained through the use of one's eyes" and therefore had glanced, not looked (yes, it takes forever to get anything done at our house). Yes. This! Thank you, your thoughts have triggered some "Aha!" here. I think you're right, there's a leadership/dominance element to it. As his brothers get older, and therefore more competent, I wonder if he's trying to assert himself as the expert because he's used to knowing more, and he's having a hard time transitioning to treating them like peers. And the dictionary thing would totally happen with my middle son. :lol: Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 If he isn't trying to be funny then I don't think it's a teen boy or older brother thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 We have a family member who still does that even though he's now an adult. He seems to believe that if he imagines it or says it, it must be so. If he doesn't want something to be true, it must therefore be false. I don't have any advice but can offer my sympathy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Maybe a self esteem issue? How is he with being wrong in other areas? Does he argue with you that his math answer cannot possibly be wrong until you prove it? It could be a delicate issue. He comes across as arrogant, but it may be a defense mechanism. He could feel insecure and being wrong, or even admitting that he doesn't know something, makes him feel more insecure, so he tries to project an image of confidence. If he's truly arrogant, then my advice would be to teach humility and that he doesn't always have to inform everyone about what he knows. If it could be a symptom of insecurity, then I'd suggest being more gentle with the humility lessons and focusing instead on building up his confidence and talking about how even the best and brightest are sometimes weak or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Do you have reason to believe he's delusional? I ask because honestly, this sounds to me like a kid teasing his siblings, and then his mom when she doesn't recognize a joke. He was a little upset, not teasing. I don't think he's delusional. Most instances aren't this extreme, and our big picture window makes it little difficult to tell sometimes whether it's raining. It was more that he couldn't accept that the other three people in the room could see the rain that was the problem. I think he'd decided that it wasn't raining, and when the other folks looking out the window said that it was, it was either keep insisting or be WRONG. It's okay to be wrong in our house, by the way. No one would have laughed or put him down. Needing to be "right" is also a recent, and probably related, flare-up that we're working on. I really think Truscifi hit on something with the dominance idea. For his younger brothers to be right and him to be wrong upsets his idea of...I don't know how to describe it, a competence hierarchy, maybe? He's moving into the teen years, and he's accustomed to little brother, especially, not knowing all the things he knows. Maybe this is all just an adjustment to increased competency on their parts. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albeto. Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 He was a little upset, not teasing. I don't think he's delusional. Most instances aren't this extreme, and our big picture window makes it little difficult to tell sometimes whether it's raining. It was more that he couldn't accept that the other three people in the room could see the rain that was the problem. I think he'd decided that it wasn't raining, and when the other folks looking out the window said that it was, it was either keep insisting or be WRONG. It's okay to be wrong in our house, by the way. No one would have laughed or put him down. Needing to be "right" is also a recent, and probably related, flare-up that we're working on. I really think Truscifi hit on something with the dominance idea. For his younger brothers to be right and him to be wrong upsets his idea of...I don't know how to describe it, a competence hierarchy, maybe? He's moving into the teen years, and he's accustomed to little brother, especially, not knowing all the things he knows. Maybe this is all just an adjustment to increased competency on their parts. Cat In that case, I'd let it drop. When issues are analyzed to the umpteenth degree to determine what's really going on, who's right and who's wrong, an environment of bickering is created. So... let it go. Remove the value of being right. Place the value on being nice and cooperative instead. In everything, make that the focus. Not just at times like this, but whenever you spot someone being nice and cooperative, mention it. Start helping your kids see that as a thing. They'll start seeing it themselves. It's nice to be with cooperative, nice people. Go out of your way to be nice and cooperative. Don't make a big deal if they aren't. You've got years to help them see and develop a pattern of behavior. "It's raining!" "No, it's not raining." "Okay, hey who wants chocolate chips in their pancakes this morning?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Does he have a domain that he and no one else in the family is a 'local expert' in? He does. He is a good musician, and can be quite a good leader when all three boys get a song or musical idea in their heads. They'll all sit down by the piano and work together beautifully. When he's in his groove, I can tell when he's giving feedback and directing the session, that he channels his own music teachers. :) So here's a glimmer of hope: At the piano, if he gets overbearing, his brothers will leave and the session is over. So he's learning to temper his desire to control with respect for their work and ideas too. Thanks (to everyone who's contributed so far). Being able to just type this out a bit has helped me get a little more confidence and direction. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 Controlling, manipulative people and crazymakers, like ocpd adults (diff than ocd) like to gaslight and throw people off balance by denying someone else's reality and opinions, or obvious reality, as a way to diminish others and keep the power. This is probably a remote possibity., but if it keeps happenng over and over, I would have him evaluated. or, if I thought he was having a serious break with reality, have it evaluated. if I just thought it was a bullying thing and he was being a typical but annoying big brother, I would make him knock it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I think you end this by refusing to argue about it. When you (or others) engage with him that "you" are in-fact-right, "you" model for him that the right thing to do in this situation is to argue for "your" perspective until the argument has a result. It doesn't matter that "you" actually are in-fact-right, or that you know which child is in-fact-right. Solving the behaviour problem has absolutely nothing to do with which person has the actual facts on his/her side. The behaviour problem is one of him not knowing how to behave in a mannerly, considerate way -- when he thinks he is right. It can't be solved by proving that he isn't right. That (at most) teaches him how to behave once someone proves him wrong, and/or how to seek facts about various topics of disagreement. Buy mostly, it teaches him that during an argument, when you think you are right, "Here is how you prove others wrong." Therefore I suggest, "You are both entitled to an opinion." -- Even when, yes, it's perfectly obvious that one of them is right, and the other is in error. Get them to say, "I understand that your opinion is xyz. I don't agree, but I understand your thoughts." Then vigorously defend each of them from unmannerly attempts to "prove" things. If they want to continue arguing, it should be mannerly and consentual. Guide this, and call the discussion over if it's getting acrimonious. Continue to affirm that it does not need to be settled, that they don't need to agree (with each other, or with you) if they don't want to. Do not provide your own 'authoritative' data, take sides, or settle the argument. Teach them how to argue: how to be a kind, respectful person, while they think they are right... That's the skill that is missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Does he argue with you that his math answer cannot possibly be wrong until you prove it? He used to. He'd insist that the math book was wrong. We'd work through the problem together, I'd gently remind him that the publishers may have a very occasional error but likely there was a mistake in his understanding or work, let's find it together. He doesn't do that any more. He's actually getting quite good at working through to find his mistake and asking for help if he can't figure it out. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 In that case, I'd let it drop. When issues are analyzed to the umpteenth degree to determine what's really going on, who's right and who's wrong, an environment of bickering is created. So... let it go. Remove the value of being right. Place the value on being nice and cooperative instead. In everything, make that the focus. Not just at times like this, but whenever you spot someone being nice and cooperative, mention it. Start helping your kids see that as a thing. They'll start seeing it themselves. It's nice to be with cooperative, nice people. Go out of your way to be nice and cooperative. Don't make a big deal if they aren't. You've got years to help them see and develop a pattern of behavior. Thank you for this. You're right. Trying to figure out who's right/wrong is usually unproductive unless it's a safety or academic issue. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Controlling, manipulative people and crazymakers, like ocpd adults (diff than ocd) like to gaslight and throw people off balance by denying someone else's reality and opinions, or obvious reality, as a way to diminish others and keep the power. This is probably a remote possibity., but if it keeps happenng over and over, I would have him evaluated. or, if I thought he was having a serious break with reality, have it evaluated. if I just thought it was a bullying thing and he was being a typical but annoying big brother, I would make him knock it off. My gut tells me it's more of a big brother thing, and something he needs some guidance on. I don't *think* he's trying to manipulate anyone, or that he's delusional. I'm mostly struggling with how to get him to "knock it off," without making him feel like he shouldn't ever speak out. I want to teach him to fact-check first before getting himself into a situation where he feels he needs to defend his opinion/perception, and to listen to the people around him too. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 That sounds absolutely age appropriate. They are all experts at that age. A quizzical glance is more effective than argument. They grow out of it. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I'm mostly struggling with how to get him to "knock it off," without making him feel like he shouldn't ever speak out. I want to teach him to fact-check first before getting himself into a situation where he feels he needs to defend his opinion/perception, and to listen to the people around him too. Cat That's an excellent paragraph. You have a very clear idea of exactly what you want to see instead if his current behaviour. 1. How to make him stop mid-argument. Easy: step physically between him and his conversation partner and say firmly, "Stop. Stop talking. I'm going to explain something to you." 2. Teach him to fact check first. A good skill. Say something like, "What you are doing is arguing about a topic that can actually be checked instead. Fact checking is good for relationships, and arguing can be upsetting. Whenever you *can* check a fact, you should do that before you go ahead and formulate a verbal argument. You need to practice. What was said first? 'It's raining.' -- instead of, 'No it's not' (to argue), try saying something like, 'I don't think so. I'll check.'" (Then encourage him to actually say that, followed by actual fact-checking and resolution.) 3. Listening skills. Make active listening a point of curriculum. It's easy and fun, contributing to drama, speech & debate, and life skills. It's well worth getting into, even if you weren't having this behaviour issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted August 12, 2014 Author Share Posted August 12, 2014 Do not provide your own 'authoritative' data, take sides, or settle the argument. Teach them how to argue: how to be a kind, respectful person, while they think they are right... That's the skill that is missing. Yes, I agree. I think you've really identified a huge part of the dynamic between the boys (and tendencies I need to be watchful of in my own self) around being right/wrong. This strategy helps with the bickering part. I do coach the boys about being okay with someone else being wrong or having another opinion and not having to convince others that you're right. Typically, I don't step in but will say something to him privately later about, "Did you think it through before saying xyz? Can you see why that might have gotten the response it got?" I am really wanting to help and do some teaching/offer guidance around the ability to determine whether his assertions are reasonable and logical. He just forms an opinion or thought and then asserts that it's correct. Telling him to go step out onto the porch, for example, was more about using his own senses (and common sense) before insisting he's right. I think I even told him, "Before you argue this, you might want to double-check. Why don't you go out and see if you can feel the rain." He's skipping a whole step in the process, which is the ability to gather information and check his opinions against it, and to listen to what others have to say as well. He's 13, so I don't expect him to be able to do this perfectly, but I really want to teach him how to express his ideas in a way that doesn't alienate others. Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 This sort of rigidity of thinking is the biggest visible "symptom" for my ASD son. Part of it for my son is a lack of social understanding. He wants to contribute and be helpful and doesn't realize that being a know-it-all pushes people away instead of bringing them closer. Part of it for my son is an anxiety OCD component once he's committed to an idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wintermom Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 In that case, I'd let it drop. When issues are analyzed to the umpteenth degree to determine what's really going on, who's right and who's wrong, an environment of bickering is created. So... let it go. Remove the value of being right. Place the value on being nice and cooperative instead. In everything, make that the focus. Not just at times like this, but whenever you spot someone being nice and cooperative, mention it. Start helping your kids see that as a thing. They'll start seeing it themselves. It's nice to be with cooperative, nice people. Go out of your way to be nice and cooperative. Don't make a big deal if they aren't. You've got years to help them see and develop a pattern of behavior. Yes. And to reinforce this, perhaps dad can intentionally model appropriate responses, too. Boys this age are learning how to be men, and navigate as men in the world. It's not always enough what mom says that's the key anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I'm not sure from your post how much of his situation is an inability to distinguish reality. But if that inability is a major component of what is going on with him, I'd probably seek professional help. I would want to know that it was just a kid being a kid and not something more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I do think there's something to the older brother thing, and moving from being the big bro in charge to more of a peer in the teen years. I have two boys. We occasionally have to have the "is it kind? Is it necessary? If not, zip it." reminder around here and it's usually directed at big brother. It is also essential to have the ability to work together without insulting the (admittedly often insane) ideas little brother suggests. Diplomacy and agreeing to disagree and all that good stuff. With my older son, I notice that he has absolutely no problem getting along with his friends, classmates and teammates. They can be annoying or crazy or lazy or wrong and it rolls right off his back. It's just little brother who doesn't get the same respect sometimes. So if your son is only directing this behavior at his siblings but has no problem with friends, then I wouldn't be worried about any psychological issues, I would just work on sibling respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 12, 2014 Share Posted August 12, 2014 I am not sure how to title this, or how to parent this quality. My eldest ds, 13, is a marvelous person. He's bright, enthusiastic, funny, and kind. He's got some amazing leadership qualities. BUT....just this morning.... He told his brother "It's not raining," as they looked out the window at the pouring rain. Then he argued that it wasn't raining because he couldn't see the rain even though we all could. I finally told him to go out onto the porch and stick his hand out so that he could actually feel the rain. And when his little brother shared how he felt about trying something new, ds13 told him that he hadn't really felt that way and started telling ds9 how he'd really felt and what ds9 had really seen. ?????? Then he started giving advice to his brothers about a rope course they'd done yesterday. A rope course that HE hadn't done, and which they had. The advice was...odd. It wouldn't have worked. This is common, a daily experience in our family for quite some time. He'll just start spouting something he's made up in his head and trying to overrun the experiences or knowledge of his brothers, or even his dad and I. I am STUMPED. It's as though his internal experiences are so real that he's not able to even realize that his insistence that incorrect information is correct and that his ideas are more real than the experiences of the people around him makes him sound foolish. Is this a teen boy thing? An older brother thing? More importantly, how do I help him temper this desire to help and share information with some...wisdom? Empathy? Balance? Help! Cat I would probably correct him, especially when he's giving grief to his younger brother. Yeah, I know that some people think that it's the responsibility of older siblings to give grief to their younger siblings, but I disagree. It doesn't sound to me like a "desire to help and share information." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwjx2khsmj Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 We use the code phrase "Did you THINK?" to stop this kind of argument or at least slow down the cycle. For years I had this posted in my kitchen and we referred to it frequently. Filtering what you say by true, helpful, inspirational, necessary, kind requires discipline but the attempt can change habits. http://www.mediawebapps.com/picturelike.php?id=277 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I have one similar but we know mostly he's trying to be silly or just seeking attention. I have discussed it with him one-on-one, helping him find other ways to satisfy his needs. It has helped. Sometimes I just have to tell him he's being obnoxious and to knock it off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trilliums Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 If he isn't joking....sounds like time for a logic study! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Can you do some role playing? Perhaps first just between you and the ds in question, so you can privately show him how his denials of that obvious to others makes them feel (for example, you use some of his techniques and be the one to declare that the sky is not blue or the grass not green when he clearly sees that they are). And then later, perhaps work out a reward system privately with him that he will receive a reward if he responds in an acceptable way when his younger sib comes up with something wildly incorrect or impossible. Finally, perhaps you could adjust the reward system to be active when he demonstrates his ability to interact positively with other family members when there is a difference in beliefs or assertions. But don't forget to teach him when and how to politely but firmly contradict something he considers totally wrong. You don't want to turn a bright, intelligent kid into a "yes man". Because the time may come when he absolutely needs to take an unpopular stand. He just needs to know to be judicious in determine when those times are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I can understand the "know-it-all" thing. It's obnoxious, but I don't think it's a big deal, because most kids grow out of that stage. It's the "it's not raining" thing that I find troubling. I can't come up with any plausible reason why he would have said that, except for joking, and you've already said that wasn't the case. How is his vision? I'm only asking because the rain thing may be completely separate from the know-it-all thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 I can understand the "know-it-all" thing. It's obnoxious, but I don't think it's a big deal, because most kids grow out of that stage. It's the "it's not raining" thing that I find troubling. I can't come up with any plausible reason why he would have said that, except for joking, and you've already said that wasn't the case. How is his vision? I'm only asking because the rain thing may be completely separate from the know-it-all thing. Yes, this is my concern, too. It just seemed very different from a standard know-it-all reaction. Hadn't thought about a vision issue, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiMi 4under3 Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Maybe... it's a normal logic-stage developmental phase?? It makes me think of DD12 who's recently become "argumentative" in a know-it-all way. For example, I recently said, "Well, in my house, you must.....xyz" and she said, "It's not your house, it belongs to the bank." And then she began to explain how we pay the bank each month for the loan they gave us, blah blah... She wasn't being disrespectful or rude - it's almost as if she needs/needs us to be, very clear and technical about everything lately.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 Controlling, manipulative people and crazymakers, like ocpd adults (diff than ocd) like to gaslight and throw people off balance by denying someone else's reality and opinions, or obvious reality, as a way to diminish others and keep the power. This is probably a remote possibity., but if it keeps happenng over and over, I would have him evaluated. or, if I thought he was having a serious break with reality, have it evaluated. if I just thought it was a bullying thing and he was being a typical but annoying big brother, I would make him knock it off. This is a worst-case scenario, but insisting upon redefining reality and the control aspect need to be addressed. Things will not go well for him if this pattern continues. My gut tells me it's more of a big brother thing, and something he needs some guidance on. I don't *think* he's trying to manipulate anyone, or that he's delusional. I'm mostly struggling with how to get him to "knock it off," without making him feel like he shouldn't ever speak out. I want to teach him to fact-check first before getting himself into a situation where he feels he needs to defend his opinion/perception, and to listen to the people around him too. Cat If the house isn't burning down, if no one is bleeding, if it doesn't effect you, LET THEM BE WRONG! It's not your job, not your responsibility to correct your brothers. Just let them be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upennmama Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 My 12 year old DD does this and it's maddening. I think it's relatively normal (but correctable) preteen arrogance, argumentativeness, and sibling rivalry as the younger siblings catch up and threaten the older kid's dominance. I correct her and ask her to try listening, being humble, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasmama Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 The rain argument puzzles me. That one is odd. The rest of it seems like it could very well be developmental. My 13 year old son has morphed into a different person altogether in the past year. (He will be 14 this fall.) He can frequently be found stating to his younger brother, "Do not challenge the alpha dog here!", speaking of himself. What the heck? He also challenges me much more frequently than previously. He is usually respectful but not always. And sometimes he is just a royal pain in the butt. He is also not quite neurotypical but has no label so there's that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 It's likely to be a mixture of your son's age, his place in the family hierarchy, and his natural inclination. Your post so resembled my son at that age that I laughed increasingly louder as I read on. My son has always been confident and secure in his assessments, even when they are the clear minority. It's something I admired from the time he was a preschooler arguing with other preschoolers about why Thomas wasn't, in fact, the "best" train despite his being the most popular one. He never went with the party line - not when it was easier, and definitely not once backed into a corner! I didn't want to lose that. When he reached those early teenage years, I knew I was dealing with a few separate issues - 1. being a smart kid accustomed to knowing "it all," entering a stage of increased self-awareness, 2. being a young teenager, finding his place when he's not-yet-a-man-but-no-longer-a-child, 3. being an older brother, learning to lead and inspire once age-dominance loses effectiveness, 4. being a friend/cousin/son, realizing/fearing that people are watching/judging as you experience #1-3. All of those were tied to different levels of his identity (self, family, world). And when he found that identity threatened (by nothing more than maturation - his own AND his siblings') he reacted somewhat defensively. It's a normal reaction to the unknown and to uncertainty, even among adults who perceive their identities to be threatened. Add to it a certain personality type and/or neurological quirks, and you have one recipe of the many for assured hardheadedness! Re: the rain situation ... many mornings my son used a specific mixing bowl to make breakfast for everyone. Then he would rinse it and stack it in the clean pile to dry. It drove me nuts, either actually wash it OR stick it in the dishwasher. There would be dried on pancake batter or egg yolk clearly stuck on the white porcelain bowl, yet he'd be arguing with me that it was clean and he saw nothing. He'd argue so insistently that I thought one or the both of us were blind or insane. I had his vision checked. I had his mental acuity checked. I had his blood levels checked. I had him poked and prodded because he was obviously hosting some exotic parasite that was eating away at his brain LOL. Earlier this summer as my nephew hit 13, my son started commenting on how annoying this cousin was lately. He sees, now, how it looks from the outside. I reminded him that he would argue with me about the mixing bowl, and he said, "Yeah. That was pretty stupid. I don't know what I was thinking trying to convince you I had cleaned it!" Ya think? ;) I was just relieved to learn he wasn't completely clueless about what constituted clean. Because I've held on to that worry and have prayed for his future roommates and wife! Re: the rope course ... some people have difficulty accepting that they truly do not know everything. It's especially true of people whose identity is linked to knowing a lot of information - whether they've self-identified, are considered by others to be quite knowledgeable, or are some combination of both. So it's like they feel a pull to keep up the façade (or farce, if they perceive this reputation was unduly acquired) most likely without even realizing it. They may posture, pretending to know more than they do. They may exaggerate, creating information based on a nugget of related but inconsequential knowledge. They may flat out make up stuff, figuring if they don't know something how could someone they perceive to be less knowledgeable know any differently? It's a bit egotistical but the intent can sometimes be more about deceiving oneself than deceiving the other party. And then there's just the old "I was a great parent before I had kids" thing. Everyone has a great idea about how to do something when they lack familiarity with the nuances. Nobody will be able to convince him his suggestions for the rope course wouldn't work, it's something he'll have to show himself - through action and putting his advice into play. He may say he's not interested in doing the ropes course (which is a small concede, IMO so I accept that) or he may get out there, see the flaws in his idea and be humbled a little bit. And really, I think that's your goal as it was mine. I didn't want to drive away his assuredness and inclination to lead, but those traits were growing wild and needed pruning. I hoped to refine them so they'd remain strengths, not turn into weaknesses that made him obnoxious to be around. When you can, give your son the opportunity to act on his own advice. Right now he's the only one capable of convincing himself of the flaws in it! Bonus if he does come across a useful piece of advice out on the rope course - he'll start gaining cred with his brothers again, plus hopefully realize how much everyone hates a Monday morning quarterback :) My son is a competitive athlete and he HATES the know-it-all commentary from parent on the sideline who never played (his) sport, if any. I point it out as an example of how he might sound to others on some topics. I routinely use people in public or people we know as examples (both positive and negative) because this kid really does need to see it to get it. In the meanwhile, I love that you see your son as more than just his annoying habit. You clearly want to help him through this and not just shut him down because he's being super annoying. In the thick of it, that can be a challenge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plink Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 We have a family joke about one particular boy's passionate defense of www.StuffIknowNothingAbout .com. I feel your pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 My younger boy does something like this. It is obviously an attention getting ploy, which is different than what you think you are dealing with. When he starts in on it, and it annoys the ever loving crap out of me, I just shut it down. I say, "Nope, stop it. I'm not going to talk to you if you are going to be like this." and I flat out walk away and we don't interact with him until he stops. Sometimes I point out that he is just picking an argument with his family and he needs to stop. Or he asks totally obviously wrong or 'silly' questions but insists on having a real conversation about it. Now I just reply 'What do you think the answer is" and when he gives me whatever answer I ask him why he felt the need to ask me in the first place. That would look something like this child: Can I have only chocolate chip cookies for dinner? Me: Yeah, that would be fun wouldn't it? child: No, I am serious. That is what I want Me: No, I am sorry but you can't. You can have a cookie after dinner though child: proceeds to have an actual ridiculous argument with me about not getting cookies for dinner. I should add that child is not 4, child is almost 10. Now: Child: Can I have only chocolate chip cookies for dinnner? Me: what do you think my answer to that will really be? Child: No? Me: Got it in one. Sounds like you already knew the answer to that. With your son, it might be a good idea to talk to him later on, at a later time, and process the situation with him. Ask him why he continues to argue with people about something when it is so clear to everyone else he isn't correct, and more importantly, an argument wasn't necessary. Ask him how he felt, did it feel good? Did he feel happy when it was over or unhappy? How does he think his siblings and you felt? You are looking for some signs of empathy and understanding of how his behaviour is making others feel...and making him feel. When some of these little bumps in the road come up with my kids I find taking the time to sit down later on and process it out. every. single. time. leads to pretty quick change, if only to avoid a 45 min heart to heart with mom and dad every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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