AHHHHHH!!!! Tell me my naughty child will be ok. JAWM

[Desert Strawberry]

So far this morning he has:

 

Unrolled an entire roll of toilet paper.

 

Pulled the baby potty out of the closet and pooped in it.

Sprayed himself with bug repellent (which isn't as bad as I thought. I thought it was wasp spray  :ohmy: )

 

Pulled down the shower curtain.

 

Hosed down the bathroom with water.

Dumped a bowl of trail mix on the playroom floor (technically this was the 3yo, but he's an accessory). 

Not cleaned his room when told to. 

 

Assorted more minor infractions.

 

All of this while I have checked on him every 20 minutes between trying to get events and appointments scheduled.

Yes, we are having him evaluated/he has been evaluated. He has passed every screening we can think of with flying colors/received/completed treatment for everything. So far the only answer I have is he is very clever and this is his personality. He has food allergies and that is being addressed. 

He is so much like me, but my parents were very punitive and "trained it out of me"-yes. That way. I don't want to do that to him. It didn't really work with me. I just learned not to get caught. 

He will be fine, right? He will probably not kill himself. He will probably not grow up to be a felon. Right? I am doing everything I can to keep him safe. He will grow out of this and his strong self-will will benefit him in the long run. Please tell me this is true. 
 

 

ETA: For the record, we generally keep a chemical free house. We are doing home repairs/remodelling, so there are sometimes things in places they shouldn't be. But otherwise, we are *very* safe. Please don't assume that we are crappy parents don't supervise or seek help for our kids. He is EXTREMELY challenging and there appear to be no answers. 
Surely someone else has had a child like this. 
 

[Pink and Green Mom]

:grouphug:

[trulycrabby]

Sounds like a perfectly normal, bright and active little boy. Chances are he wasn't happy that mom had things to do today and did his absolute best to get your attention one way or another. Little rascal, sounds like he had you running! :)

[maize]

This is your 4 year old?

 

Most of these things would just be par for the course around here. Are most children not like this? I guess two of mine aren't, but the other three are. I just figured it was normal...probably because I use my own childhood as a reference :D

[maize]

FWIW, two of my brothers were particularly good at causing all kinds of mayhem as children. They have both grown into extremely successful and very nice adults. One recently graduated with double masters degrees from MIT and the other is in the top 10% of his class at the Air Force academy. Energetic, bright, and curious little boys just have a tendency to get into things...

[Desert Strawberry]

Sounds like a perfectly normal, bright and active little boy. Chances are he wasn't happy that mom had things to do today and did his absolute best to get your attention one way or another. Little rascal, sounds like he had you running! :)

 

Not really. I found everything at once. He has been interacting with me all day. That's what is crazy making. I AM WATCHING HIM, and he STILL manages to do all of this destruction. 

 

I did know about the spill. The 3 yo told me and I saw it and told them to clean it up, which they didn't. But the entire rest of the destruction was hidden in the bathroom. Argh. Aside from keeping my eyes ON him 100% of the time, I don't know what else I can do. And that isn't practical. I do have other things that need my attention sometimes. 

 

Totally possible I'm overreacting. I have 4 boys. This one is more work than all three of the others combined. 

[Ottakee]

I had one like that.  Part of her issue was ADHD.  I had to LAUGH when the psychologist came out of the room after testing her and looked at me and said "I'm tired".........after about 20 minutes of 1:1 with the child.  YEP, I was tired too.  I used to pay a teen to come and play with her so I could get things done as she needed 1:1 attention.  Now things are MUCH easier (she is on meds as well).

 

Not much help but I can commiserate.

[sassenach]

I had this child.  The stories are legendary.  I took pictures to prove that I didn't make it all up.

 

As an 11 yo, he is seriously my most cautious and thoughtful kid.  I sometimes have trouble reconciling his personality as a preschooler with his personality as a child/adolescent.  All I can say is that energy burning sports are a GOOD thing.  We got him swimming young, and we've continued to keep him physically active over the years.

 

Godspeed.

 

ETA- When I say young, I mean we did infant swim and he was swimming to the bottom of the 6ft pool at 2 years old.  He started swim team at 5.

 

Also, he's my only kid that we put in preschool (at 4).  It was entirely necessary for the survival of our home.

[Desert Strawberry]

This is your 4 year old?

 

Most of these things would just be par for the course around here. Are most children not like this? I guess two of mine aren't, but the other three are. I just figured it was normal...probably because I use my own childhood as a reference :D

 

 

FWIW, two of my brothers were particularly good at causing all kinds of mayhem as children. They have both grown into extremely successful and very nice adults. One recently graduated with double masters degrees from MIT and the other is in the top 10% of his class at the Air Force academy. Energetic, bright, and curious little boys just have a tendency to get into things...

He's 5 now. Is it normal? That would be reassuring. I can try to adjust my expectations. Deep breaths.

[albeto.]

Not really. I found everything at once. He has been interacting with me all day. That's what is crazy making. I AM WATCHING HIM, and he STILL manages to do all of this destruction. 

 

I did know about the spill. The 3 yo told me and I saw it and told them to clean it up, which they didn't. But the entire rest of the destruction was hidden in the bathroom. Argh. Aside from keeping my eyes ON him 100% of the time, I don't know what else I can do. And that isn't practical. I do have other things that need my attention sometimes. 

 

Totally possible I'm overreacting. I have 4 boys. This one is more work than all three of the others combined. 

 

I have one who was like 19 Dennis The Mennises rolled up into one.

 

If I believed in heaven, I'd tell myself there's a special place for me. But there is no such place. Carpe Diem. That's why God invented beer.

 

;)

[Alte Veste Academy]

LOL My favorite picture of my youngest, DS8, was taken when he was two years old. All three kids were riding their tricycles on the back patio and I went to the bathroom. When I came out, DS was gone. Went looking for him... He had driven his trike into the house (a big no-no, we had indoor vehicles for that, LOL) all the way into the bathroom, straight up to the potty. I found him squatting on the soaking wet (highly dangerous!) bathroom counter, playing with water in the overfilling sink, having closed the drain to make a play pool (another big no-no, we had a sand and water table AND a baby pool for water play!). In this picture, he has a grin a mile wide. Thought he was hilarious...

 

This was not a terribly unusual morning for us. This kid...my constant companion, for his own safety. There is not a thing "wrong" with him that time, patience, an abundance of strict supervision, and MEANINGFUL HOBBIES couldn't fix.

[Luanne]

"Not cleaned his room when he was told to."  I'm not sure what all this entails in your opinion.  I don't think I have met a 4 year old yet who was capable of being told to go clean their room and could.  That doesn't sound age appropriate at all.

[albeto.]

And who the heck rated this thread a one-star?

 

Who is this Masked Down-Rater who keeps throwing up negativity on otherwise normal conversations???

[Desert Strawberry]

I had one like that.  Part of her issue was ADHD.  I had to LAUGH when the psychologist came out of the room after testing her and looked at me and said "I'm tired".........after about 20 minutes of 1:1 with the child.  YEP, I was tired too.  I used to pay a teen to come and play with her so I could get things done as she needed 1:1 attention.  Now things are MUCH easier (she is on meds as well).

 

Not much help but I can commiserate.

 

 

I had this child.  The stories are legendary.  I took pictures to prove that I didn't make it all up.

 

As an 11 yo, he is seriously my most cautious and thoughtful kid.  I sometimes have trouble reconciling his personality as a preschooler with his personality as a child/adolescent.  All I can say is that energy burning sports are a GOOD thing.  We got him swimming young, and we've continued to keep him physically active over the years.

 

Godspeed.

Thank you. 

Teachers and therapists LOVE this kid. He will follow instructions all day long, asks for chores and begs for schoolwork. But yes, he needs my eyes ON HIM every minute of the day-even for toileting-or he will destroy everything. Including himself. It's exhausting. 

He is clever. He entertains himself in ah creative ways. I feel slightly outmatched. 

[maize]

He's 5 now. Is it normal? That would be reassuring. I can try to adjust my expectations. Deep breaths.

It would be normal for several little boys (and a couple of little girls) I have known...

 

And yes, it is quite normal in my household. It would be very abnormal in my sister's household, but her kids seem to have been born with a much stronger need to follow rules and ask permission than some of mine were! I do not think it is an indication of something wrong, it is just the temperament of some kids.

[Lady Florida.]

I had one like that.  Part of her issue was ADHD.  I had to LAUGH when the psychologist came out of the room after testing her and looked at me and said "I'm tired".........after about 20 minutes of 1:1 with the child.  YEP, I was tired too.  I used to pay a teen to come and play with her so I could get things done as she needed 1:1 attention.  Now things are MUCH easier (she is on meds as well).

 

Not much help but I can commiserate.

 

Sounds just like mine! After he was diagnosed the doctor told me he's a textbook case. :D We couldn't keep babysitters, though at the time we just thought he was just very "active".

 

He's a teen now with a summer job. He takes his medication regularly because he spent a year not taking it (at his request) and now he truly understands his issues.

 

You likely have an active curious child who will be fine. His behaviors aren't age inappropriate at this time. I'm agreeing with you as per your request. But please do keep an eye on his behavior as he gets older. After ds was diagnosed it was easy to look back and find the signs that I didn't see at the time. 

[T'smom]

My almost 4 year old went through a phase just like that. I could not leave her alone for 5 minutes or something would be destroyed. She was an expert at taking things apart. (Especially that thing at the bottom of a screen door- she was always taking that off) One time she found sunscreen in the bottom of a beach bag and smeared it all over some carpet. Another time she found my make-up and decorated the bathroom....walls, tub, sink, mirror, toilet....everything. The makeup was in a small bag in the back of the linen closet in the bathroom because I only wear makeup a couple times a year. When she did that, I thought she was watching Netflix on the iPad which usually kept her attention. My MIL babysat one time and apologized to me afterwards saying "I thought you just didn't watch her closely enough.....but she's FAST" and my MIL had triplet boys. It was exhausting, but she has mostly grown out of it. Mostly. I think it's normal for some kids to have a phase like that.

 

ETA: someone mentioned swimming. I agree that stuff like that helps. My kids can swim all afternoon and still not be worn out. But it does help a lot!

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I see a positive there...

 

He pooped IN the baby potty, not carpet or anything. Lol

 

We have had powder incidents, gallons of soy milk dumped, peeing while spinning sans pants because "it's fun," washing ferrets in the toilet, toilet paper "ramps" for cars or LEGOs, etc.....

[albeto.]

I see a positive there...

 

He pooped IN the baby potty, not carpet or anything. Lol

 

We have had powder incidents, gallons of soy milk dumped, peeing while spinning sans pants because "it's fun," washing ferrets in the toilet, toilet paper "ramps" for cars or LEGOs, etc.....

 

I read it as he pooped in the closet!

[redsquirrel]

I have so, so many friends who had kids like that. Those kids have all grown up into totally responsible adults. In fact, they are totally delightful and successful and people I very much enjoy spending time with. They are all creative and smart and happy.

 

It will be ok. 

[AimeeM]

"Not cleaned his room when he was told to."  I'm not sure what all this entails in your opinion.  I don't think I have met a 4 year old yet who was capable of being told to go clean their room and could.  That doesn't sound age appropriate at all.

 

My barely 5 year old has been able to do it for some time now - definitely since age 4. I do think that it's entirely kid dependent and varies. This particular child is my least active, very calm, builder boy.

On that note, my 12 year old can't clean her own room :D

 

OP - I have a two year like your son. In fact, a bit ago I gave him an ice cream cone and shut him in their bedroom, so that I could get the dishes done without him pulling things out of the dishwasher and throwing said utensils in the fireplace/behind the tv/wherever. I knew what would happen with the ice cream, but I decided some major mop work for me was worth the 15 minutes of peace.

[Farrar]

It does seem like a little much for a 5 yo, but every kid is entitled to a bad day.  Hugs!

 

When I have a day like that (or, well, now that my kids are older, they look different, but the same gist), I generally shake things up the next day for everyone.  Out of the house, school at Panera if it's during the school year, start the day at the park, assign different chores, etc.

[Luanne]

When I opened the thread, I expected to hear that your child was 18 months or maybe 2.  I worked in child care (have a degree in Early Childhood Education) for over 10 years.  Sorry to disagree with all of you, but that is not normal behavior for a four year old.  Yes, it is normal behavior for a one or two year old.

[BigMamaBird]

On the bright side, he did poop in the potty.  

 

I hope your day gets better.

[Desert Strawberry]

I have so, so many friends who had kids like that. Those kids have all grown up into totally responsible adults. In fact, they are totally delightful and successful and people I very much enjoy spending time with. They are all creative and smart and happy.

 

It will be ok. 

These are all encouraging, but this is word-for-word what I needed to hear. Thank you. Creative and smart and happy is exactly what I hope he will be. 

 

 

I'm so relieved reading these. 

[Desert Strawberry]

Mine isn't quite that chaotic, but he has a lot of energy.  Two things that help him is we have some exercise equipment that he can use to burn off some of that extra energy.  He especially likes the exercise trampoline.  He gets on that thing several times a day.  It's helped him be more focused with school work too.

 

He sounds challenging for sure!  I think you are doing the best you can do. 

 

Yes. I want a trampoline for Aries and Gem DESPERATELY but D, the Safety Professional, has expressly forbidden even the little toddler ones. I even found a bounce house we could maybe afford that would fit in our front yard. He vetoed that, too. We NEEEED an outlet. 

 

We do have a swing set and I let Gem jump on a mattress on the floor. He has large balls, and other things. He's in multiple sports, and we get LOTS of active outside time. 

 

P.S. I am cracking up at all the posters praising him for pooping in the potty. That's an excellent point. He did manage that nicely, and I only recently put the potty away. I can see why he didn't think it was a big deal to use it. 

[Desert Strawberry]

"Not cleaned his room when he was told to."  I'm not sure what all this entails in your opinion.  I don't think I have met a 4 year old yet who was capable of being told to go clean their room and could.  That doesn't sound age appropriate at all.

I guess you missed the JAWM tag on the title. but that's cool. Not everyone is good at following instructions. 

 

He has been cleaning his room since he was 3. He started it on his own, and is quite capable. None of my others could do it, and I don't expect them to. That's why this is HIS chore. 

[texasmama]

None of mine were like this at 5, but we have no ADHD here, either.  I think you are right to feel exhausted!  Mine did various bits of naughtiness at 2-3, in particular, but by 5 they were past doing most of that jazz.  I do think that aside from a lot of whining and sibling conflict, I have pretty easy kids.  I do have one that has been more work than the other three combined so I do understand this concept.  He is just very, very sensitive combined with very, very stubborn and very, very smart.  I think he will rule the world one day, though.  :D

[Desert Strawberry]

When I opened the thread, I expected to hear that your child was 18 months or maybe 2.  I worked in child care (have a degree in Early Childhood Education) for over 10 years.  Sorry to disagree with all of you, but that is not normal behavior for a four year old.  Yes, it is normal behavior for a one or two year old.

 

 

I'm not seeing anything supportive or encouraging here. Did you have something helpful to say, or is this just pointless criticism?

 

ETA: FTR I have a BA in Behavioral Sciences and I worked with children in multiple capacities for over 10 years before having my own. I'm not exactly uninformed. 

[Desert Strawberry]

We have a small one with a bar for use indoors.  It can be used by adults too.  So far no accidents at all.  Both kids use it. 

 

I won't get a big backyard type one.  I don't want to pay for the insurance!

 

We could nickname our younger son Crash because he crashes into things constantly.  I think that school would be a very difficult place for him!

 

Yes. That's the one I want. He says no. Well, he says it MUCH more strongly than that...

 

Crash, yes. That's my second child. 

[texasmama]

By the way, at five my "hard" kid was not making messes, but he was so oppositional that I had to threaten to send him to public school because he refused to cooperate with anything.  He did a lot of hiding under the table, throwing tantrums and generally disrupting our days.  I did come close to sending him to public school, both in kindy and in first grades.  He was a real pain in the butt.  I kept telling myself every year that it would get better, but it really did not until he was about seven.  He still cannot easily disrupt the downward spiral when it starts.  For instance, he got mad at his dad the other evening for something minor and stomped in, slammed his door and refused to speak to anyone for the rest of the evening (about 6 hours).  He was rude to me when I tried, and I didn't even do anything wrong to him.  He just needs a long time to cool his jets once he gets heated.  However, he is my most helpful, sweet and compassionate child in every other way.  He is creative and caring of other's feelings and mature beyond his years.  He is the one child I have (including my 19 year old) who will anticipate my needs and offer to help.  "Can I carry your bag to the car, mom?"

 

It makes the rest of the junk worth it.  Hang in there, mama.  :)

[73349]

He is curious. He is productive. He makes life exciting for himself and others. He will be awesome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's what I tell myself, anyway.

[almondbutterandjelly]

((Hugs))  It will be okay.  Sounds completely normal.  As a decades-long Sunday School teacher, I have noticed that most kids calm down by 5th or 6th grade.  :)

 

Applause to you for being a great mom!  

[fairfarmhand]

My dh climbed up the antennae pole to set a campfire on the roof of the house (he was about 8-9). Thankfully, his brother tattled on him before he made a raging inferno.

 

He also did things like paint the fence with mud, create bows and arrows from nails and sticks, and dropped out of kindergarten because he chased the car several blocks after being dropped off.

 

He is now a responsible, normal, guy. Engineer if that makes you feel better. Always mentally engaged in something. I bet your fellow is very bright and curious. 

[NASDAQ]

Ah, the joys of small children in groups. There's always at least one agent of chaos, someone aiding and abetting the agent of chaos, and I'm not supervising the way I did with just my first kid because I'm changing a diaper and teaching someone to read.

 

AFAIK there's no link between being a particularly chaotic kid and a later career as an axe murderer ;) If there is, please don't tell me. I'm already having a rough day.

[mathnerd]

It sounds like he is bored when he is expected to amuse himself and has too much energy. On days that you are busy, maybe you can take him outside for a walk, run, bike trip or playing on a play structure before the start of the day. Or can you sign him up for physically strenuous sports/activities - like swim team, soccer, martial arts or baseball? My child who has extremely high energy level does 2 sports and there is a coach to put him through his paces. Things are so different in our house if his energy is used up than when it is not.

[MercyA]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: , strawberrymamma.

[TeenagerMom]

Sounds just like DS when he waa younger! I can say that at 11 years old, he is still stubborn & spirited but mainly keeps his destructiveness outside on appropriate things!

[Kerileanne99]

Yes. That's the one I want. He says no. Well, he says it MUCH more strongly than that...

 

Crash, yes. That's my second child.

My dd4 can get absolutely crazy without both strenuous physical activity and lots of mental challenge. We DO have one of those trampolines, but here is something similar that we have had great success with that your hubby might be more comfortable with:

Jump roping...but when we started at two, I just slowly twirled the rope in a circle so that she could time it/jump the rope. Something about the physical jumping and the rhythm was very strenuous and calming. Eventually she graduated to regular jump roping.

Also, spinning. One of those swings that are in a disc, or a tire swing are both great. We have them hung on our porch and in the climbing wall/jungle gym/garage. And a hammock as well:).

 

But it IS still rough. She goes to gymnastics 2 days week, swimming 2 days per week, and rock climbs 2 days week, and she never seems to run out of energy!

[rmtzc2009]

I had one like that.  Part of her issue was ADHD.  I had to LAUGH when the psychologist came out of the room after testing her and looked at me and said "I'm tired".........after about 20 minutes of 1:1 with the child.  YEP, I was tired too.  I used to pay a teen to come and play with her so I could get things done as she needed 1:1 attention.  Now things are MUCH easier (she is on meds as well).

 

Not much help but I can commiserate.

 

ADHD was part of our sons issue as well.  I could have written the op.  I don't have much to offer in the way of help...were just hanging on day by day here.  I have been told it gets better!

[itsheresomewhere]

Completely normal. If you haven't yet, make sure the first aid kit is stocked at all times. It is a wonder that I am not a head full of gray hair. DS did some amazing(now) things at the time.

 

DD( my calm child) painted the dog blue is less than 2 minutes.

[Katy]

Well he sounds normal, bright, and active to me (though my family view of normal IS colored strongly by ADHD).  He'll grow up and turn into an amazing person just like you are. He's creative and brave and doing his best to learn everything he can.  He won't be a criminal.

 

Just wondering, have you told him HOW to clean his room?  My mom used to tell me that and I would get overwhelmed and do nothing.  When it was broken down for me- "First make your bed.  Then pick up all the stuff off the floor and put it away.  Then clear the clutter off of surfaces one at a time.  Then clean the surfaces (dust, windex, vacuum)." Well, I can't say I felt that much less overwhelmed, but at least I knew where to start.

 

For four year olds I don't say "Clean your room."  I say "Pick up your dirty clothes and put them in the hamper," or "Put your legos in the bin," or whatever else I identify as the biggest mess when I look in a room; one task at a time.  Not that that's easy when you have even younger children around.  It's not.  :grouphug:

 

 

[applethyme]

:grouphug: :grouphug: Sounds like my ds.  One thing that helps him is workbooks.  He can do them while sitting next to me.  I get them at the dollar store and use them when I need him contained. 

[mommymonster]

My DS8 had to *run* starting at age 18 months and continuing until about age 6. And I mean he *ran* for at least a mile a day (to and from the park) and then played for an hour. We also had him run to and from preschool (about a half mile each way). We also bought a house with a "loop" in it --all the rooms connect through a hallway, and he would run around it and we would "chase" him.  We also had a loop in the front yard, which he ran around.

 

Physical exercise was vital (and honestly still is) for everyone's sanity.

 

At 8, though, he's starting to be able to sit still to read and to watch TV occasionally. It's a funny thing, as now I'm missing all the running and signed up to run a marathon with all my extra energy.   :lol:

[sewingmama]

Sounds like normal at my house LOL.

 

I like to think of my kids as creative.... creative people make lots of mess ..yes....lol.

 

We do have a trampoline...it has saved my sanity. When my kids are getting to much for me in the house...out they go.

 

and yes....while being supervised is when my kids make some of their biggest messes. Thank goodness I catch it quickly....would hate to think of the catastrophe if they had excess time to themselves. lol

[Catwoman]

Sounds like a kid whose mom deserves hazard pay and a nice vacation. :grouphug:

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Sounds normal. You deserve hugs and a bit of quiet time just for you!

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Desert Strawberry]

Well he sounds normal, bright, and active to me (though my family view of normal IS colored strongly by ADHD).  He'll grow up and turn into an amazing person just like you are. He's creative and brave and doing his best to learn everything he can.  He won't be a criminal.

 

Just wondering, have you told him HOW to clean his room?  My mom used to tell me that and I would get overwhelmed and do nothing.  When it was broken down for me- "First make your bed.  Then pick up all the stuff off the floor and put it away.  Then clear the clutter off of surfaces one at a time.  Then clean the surfaces (dust, windex, vacuum)." Well, I can't say I felt that much less overwhelmed, but at least I knew where to start.

 

For four year olds I don't say "Clean your room."  I say "Pick up your dirty clothes and put them in the hamper," or "Put your legos in the bin," or whatever else I identify as the biggest mess when I look in a room; one task at a time.  Not that that's easy when you have even younger children around.  It's not.  :grouphug:

First, thank you. That's very kind of you to say. I'm not feeling very amazing today.

 

Second, I didn't need to teach him. He likes things tidy and does it himself. I did teach the others, and everyone has to have their work checked when they are "done". Of all of them, he is by FAR the best cleaner. They all share one small room. It's a dormitory with a triple bunk, clothing shelves, a large dog crate, and very little floor space. It takes 5 minutes to clean. He even vacuums if I help him with the plug.

[jewellsmommy]

My dd was very much like what you describe. I still have to pull teeth to get her to clean her room by the way.

 

I couldn't even turn my back on her between the ages of 3-5 without something happening. On a Sunday, the preacher had no sooner say Amen and I  looked up to see dd had climbed the column in the Sanctuary to the ceiling! We're talking over 14ft!

 

I thought dh had her and he thought I did, nope, she was in the kitchen making a cocktail of bathroom and kitchen cleaner that had been behind baby-locked cabinets. Thank God for non-toxic cleaners!

 

We once took her to the ER because she hadn't slept for over 24 hrs straight and was spastic. She was 4. We had no other idea what to do. She had been in her room, behind a baby gate and she threw stuffed animals to the other side, got something to stand on, and dove head first over the gate to the other side. She was insane! The hospital actually tested her for drugs! She was clean, of course. They gave her benadryl to calm her down. The doc had joked about a little Jack Daniels if it happened again. :huh:  Dh asked if was for her or us. :lol:

 

 

[Doodlebug]

You picked up a phone AND had things to do?!?!?!   :) :) :)

 

Those were the calling cards for kiddie chaos when my DS was that age. Whew do I remember those days!  ((((hugs))))