not every good idea makes good liturgy (Catholic-wise, that is)

[fdrinca]

Basically what the title says. I'd love to be a fly on the wall on my church's liturgical committee meetings. From tonight's Holy Thursday service: There was no hesitation to use the term "liturgical dancers" in tonight's program. Our visiting priest ad-libbed the Eucharistic prayer. Our altar was replaced with a fully-set banquet table, around which sat 12 "apostles."

 

I'm not, in general, a super-traditional or conservative person. I do, though, think that centuries of serous, prayerful thought about what constitutes a valid liturgy shouldn't be discarded just because someone thinks it would be fun to pirouette the oils up the aisle.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Whoa. Not Catholic, but as EO that would simply be horrifying to observe in my parish on the Liturgy for the Institution of the Eucharist.

[MyLittleWonders]

(Catholic here) Oh that would probably cause us to have to find another parish. I can't even imagine.

[Sugarfoot]

Our parish observes the washing of the feet of 12 parish members during the Holy Thursday service. They're chosen from various ministries in the church. It's a very solemn service, and I guess I assumed that was pretty standard. Yours sounds…interesting.

[JustEm]

Liturgical dance during Mass is not allowed in western cultures. There are places the Vatican allows it because it is part of their culture and is relevant to their religious celebration(it also looks different than what you most likely witnessed.) I would be informing my diocese that this was going on and demand that they deal with it. if the bishop didn't handle the situation i would go to the archbishop that oversees him. The ad libbing as well.

[WishboneDawn]

Uh...Wow. 

 

I'm Anglican, one of the other churches big on liturgy and that would be...something. The liturgical dancers thing I'm sketchy on but ad-libbing the Eucharistic prayer? Sorry but the liturgy is one the community of the church shares as a community, it informs the life of the community, gives us commonality with other Catholics/EO/Anglicans whatever. You don't go messing about making up your own stuff as if you're a disconnected and self-centered congregation. I'm neither here nor there on the 12 apostles thing. It does sound cheesy though.

 

We have changed things a bit in our church. My minister moved the pews to be parallel with the walls of the church and brought the table down into that space. He takes off his stole and each person who does readings or leads a prayer wears it. Sort of radical but informed and deeply rooted in principles of ministry and community. The liturgy however, does not get messed with and I daresay he'd be a little horrified to hear of a priest ad-libbing a eucharistic prayer. 

[PrincessMommy]

Whoa. Not Catholic, but as EO that would simply be horrifying to observe in my parish on the Liturgy for the Institution of the Eucharist.

 

I agree...

 

I agree with the OP that it doesn't seem like a good idea to start messing with major liturgical days such as Holy Thursday or Good Friday and such. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

That would be horrifying.  We have a very "progressive" parish - a little too progressive for my taste (they have used liturgical dancers in the past for special masses like our 50th anniversary) but our Triduum services are done with utmost reverence.  The holy oils are reverently brought in by people who symbolically represent what those oils are used for.  The only liberty they have taken with this is that the foot washing is community-wide - the priests and deacons start the foot washing, but then anyone who wants to participate can do so (in the washing and being washed.)  I have to say that we were doubly blessed last night to find that our cantor for the evening was our local "Irish tenor" - he has the most beautiful voice - and he is from Ireland. 

[KarenNC]

When I was in an Episcopal church (very traditional liturgically though liberal theologically) about 25 years ago , the priest decided it would be nice to hand out wrapped  Easter eggs from the Communion rail one Easter Sunday service. Same guy who at one point started using the filled collection plates to make the sign of the Cross over the congregation during the service (actually moving the plates up/down/side/side). He was.....different. Neither of these went over well with the congregation.

[speedmom4]

I would be mortified.

 

Our priest did do something new last night. He washed the feet of two women as well as several men. He told me that if Pope Francis could do it then there shouldn't be a problem. I thought it was beautiful.

 

Blessings,

 

Elise in NC

[brehon]

I agree with hjffkj. I would go to the diocese over this. In a heartbeat & without reservation.

 

And probably find another parish.

[WishboneDawn]

I would be mortified.

 

Our priest did do something new last night. He washed the feet of two women as well as several men. He told me that if Pope Francis could do it then there shouldn't be a problem. I thought it was beautiful.

 

Blessings,

 

Elise in NC

I think there's a lot of room for introducing new things but it has to be thoughtful, intelligent and be accompanied by some education so the congregation understands the changes.

 

My minister's changes seem radical but this is over the course of 20 plus years with a real emphasis on educating people about their role in ministry.

[fdrinca]

I live in Coastal California, where a lot of unusual activity flies as normal. Last night's liturgy was too much, however. I've drafted a letter to our Bishop. The liturgical dancers were from our Filipino community, so at first I'd thought perhaps there were cultural reasons they were included,but a quick Internet search tells me probably not. 

 

We'll be getting a new pastor in the summertime. (Sigh of relief!) 

[Joker]

I would be mortified.

 

Our priest did do something new last night. He washed the feet of two women as well as several men. He told me that if Pope Francis could do it then there shouldn't be a problem. I thought it was beautiful.

 

Blessings,

 

Elise in NC

 

Ours did mostly women last night and I saw online that our Bishop did 6 men and 6 women at a local prison.

 

I've only seen dancing in our parish one time. I can't remember what the day was (we're in RCIA) but the mass was done in several different languages and one Hawaiian family did a very tasteful dance while singing. We thought it was beautiful and I don't recall hearing anyone say anything negative about it. I would not have liked to have seen dancing last night.

[mom2scouts]

 

 

I'm not, in general, a super-traditional or conservative person. I do, though, think that centuries of serous, prayerful thought about what constitutes a valid liturgy shouldn't be discarded just because someone thinks it would be fun to pirouette the oils up the aisle.

 

I'm not Catholic, so I can't really understand why this would be upsetting to you, but your description of the dancers "pirouett(ing) the oil up the aisle" has me :lol: .  Sorry :leaving: .

[momto10blessings]

Oh, that's awful.

 

We once went to a neighboring parish and they had a mariachi band DURING mass... We were quite confused.

[unsinkable]

I'm not Catholic, so I can't really understand why this would be upsetting to you, but your description of the dancers "pirouett(ing) the oil up the aisle" has me :lol: . Sorry :leaving: .

This is from a Catholic document that explains why we don't dance at Mass:

 

"Here <Western cultures> dancing is tied with love, with diversion, with profaneness, with unbridling of the senses. . . . For that reason it cannot be introduced into liturgical celebrations of any kind whatever: That would be to inject into the liturgy one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements, and so it would be equivalent to creating an atmosphere of profaneness which would easily recall to those present and to the participants in the celebration worldly places and situations."

 

HTH

[unsinkable]

I saw a billboard ( not a Catholci church ) announcing that Thursday night was "washing of the hands." :huh:

[TianXiaXueXiao]

This is off topic but tangentially related. I found this little article regarding the Divine Liturgy as a Divine Dance. While it isn't Catholic, I think it could still well apply to East or West.

[Trish]

I saw a billboard ( not a Catholci church ) announcing that Thursday night was "washing of the hands." :huh:

 

That's just SO Pontius Pilate.

[OhanaBee]

I saw a billboard ( not a Catholci church ) announcing that Thursday night was "washing of the hands." :huh:

 

Hands?  Not feet? :blink:

 

Well, that's a service not to miss!

 

Presbyterian, here, and I had a great laugh imagining what an uproar our church would be in if we had liturgical dancers during our Maundy Thursday service.  We go back and forth every year on whether or not the choir should be singing during that service [for the record, we didn't this year].  I must remember to suggest liturgical dance next year to Pastor Liz just to see the look of horror on her face.

[Chris in VA]

FWIW,

is my dd 3 years ago with our liturgical dance troupe. No professionals, but everyone learned a lot and shared it. 

It was not in the sanctuary, but she did dance during one service--that one (different dance) was not recorded; it is not a performance, exactly, but an offering, IYKWIM. No liturgical practices were harmed in the making of this video.  :lol:

 

I'm with you, OP, on the whole "make it up in the name of creativity" thing--yuck. 

[HSmomof2]

Whoa. Not Catholic, but as EO that would simply be horrifying to observe in my parish on the Liturgy for the Institution of the Eucharist.

 

:iagree:

 

Lutheran here, and this would be horrifying in our church, too.....

 

[Butter]

Once my mom went to church with some extended family (Catholic) and for some reason they decided to have a polka themed mass that day.  The family was a little befuddled because nothing like that had ever happened before.  My mom said the accordion player *was* quite good.

[Alessandra]

Basically what the title says. I'd love to be a fly on the wall on my church's liturgical committee meetings. From tonight's Holy Thursday service: There was no hesitation to use the term "liturgical dancers" in tonight's program. Our visiting priest ad-libbed the Eucharistic prayer. Our altar was replaced with a fully-set banquet table, around which sat 12 "apostles."

 

I'm not, in general, a super-traditional or conservative person. I do, though, think that centuries of serous, prayerful thought about what constitutes a valid liturgy shouldn't be discarded just because someone thinks it would be fun to pirouette the oils up the aisle.

I cannot think of a more appalling scenario. How bizarre!

 

We decided to leave the suburbs for the city this week to treat ourselves to beautiful music. Wednesday Tenebrae at a traditional RC church -- sublime. Friday at an Episcopal church we love -- perfect.

 

Thursday -- what is it about Thursday? The priest asked everyone who wanted to come up for foot washing. Plus all the servers and the choir. So there was a very, very long period of utter silence as barefoot people waddled about. Good liturgy should not have dead spots. Lots of other things were 'off,' but I won't ennumerate them all. Not as bad as op's experience, but still very disheartening.

 

Btw, we are Anglo- Catholic.

[FaithManor]

I'm Methodist and this would NOT go over well!

[JustEm]

Our foot washing always includes everyone who wants to participate. Its not a dead spot.

 

I think most people who complain about these things sound bitter and hateful. Also they typically are under involved and over opinionated. Full of complaining and superiority. And almost always from the ONLINE homeschool community, which in religion as in every other realm, is full of know it alls and sanctimonious women trying to one up everyone around them.

If a parish is not following the rules of the Catholic Church then people should be complaining and it shouldn't be bitter or hateful. I find is disgraceful that a parish would choose to go against the teachings of the Catholic church. There is a reason for everything that is s allowed and not allowed during Mass and it is not acceptable for one parish to decide they know better than the Catholic church.

 

I don't know the rules in regards to washing of the fact feet but if I ever saw a liturgical dancein my Parish I would not silently sit around while it went on.

[chiguirre]

Oh, that's awful.

 

We once went to a neighboring parish and they had a mariachi band DURING mass... We were quite confused.

That's not that unusual in the Southwest. They're a big draw in the San Antonio mission churches. But, they're singing hymns, not El Rey.

[justamouse]

I would be writing and calling the Bishop. 
 

[momto10blessings]

That's not that unusual in the Southwest. They're a big draw in the San Antonio mission churches. But, they're singing hymns, not El Rey.

Hmmm, interesting. Definitely not normal around here

[AK_Mom4]

Episcopal here.... and we have a spot for your liturgical dancers.... and probably all the rest of it.

 

Palm Sunday had the liturgical dancers (including DD12) performing the Palm Dance as we followed someone dressed as Jesus into the sanctuary and sang "All Glory Laud and Honor".  Accompanied by organ at the early service and mandolin/banjo at the later service.  At the Maunday Thursday service (which I always skip), they had a Mediterranean dinner and then the priests and deacons washed everyone's feet who wanted to participate (it takes a while as it's pretty popular).

 

Our priests don't generally go "off book" for the Eucharist, but a couple times a year they branch out and use the New Zealand prayer book to keep things interesting.....

[KarenNC]

Our foot washing always includes everyone who wants to participate.  Its not a dead spot.  

 

I think most people who complain about these things sound bitter and hateful.  Also they typically are under involved and over opinionated.  Full of complaining and superiority.  And almost always from the ONLINE homeschool community, which in religion as in every other realm, is full of know it alls and sanctimonious women trying to one up everyone around them.

 

Wow, bit of a hot button, is it? Out of curiosity, do you belong to a church with a very set liturgy and very hierarchical structure, like the Catholic church? I have found the understanding of and approach to liturgy and its elements to be very different in different denominations, even if they include similar elements. Some highly value freedom of expression and innovation in worship, while some highly value adherence to tradition and having the same predictable structure across all congregations. Things also vary with the culture of the congregation. The behavior of the Episcopal priest I described, for instance, would have been totally acceptable and probably lauded in the Baptist or Assembly of God churches I've been in,and may or may not have raised eyebrows in a different Episcopal congregation (and, to be fair, it's been over a decade since I was in that particular congregation).

 

A deep breath might be helpful.

[MercyA]

I think most people who complain about these things sound bitter and hateful.  Also they typically are under involved and over opinionated.  Full of complaining and superiority.  And almost always from the ONLINE homeschool community, which in religion as in every other realm, is full of know it alls and sanctimonious women trying to one up everyone around them.

 

:eek:  Wow.  That's pretty harsh and judgmental.  I don't see what's wrong in expecting a church to follow its own guidelines.

 

[barnwife]

FWIW, mariachi music during Mass is okay. Also, polka Masses are okay (they are fairly common around here, especially during a church's festival). To be fair, I do not know the exact rules governing them, but I do know it's allowed.

Liturgical dance...well, that'd be something I'd question. And the ad-libbing the Eucharistic prayer would quite possibly make me leave Mass (as in, right then, to find a different Mass to attend). It would certainly cause me to call the diocese. 

Finally, whether or not it's acceptable to wash the feet of everyone who wants or just 12 people varies by location. Also, whether or not women can be included also varies by location. (Here in my diocese, women can participate. In a neighboring diocese, the bishop says it's not okay. I am still interested how that will play out as Pope Francis deems it okay to wash women's feet.)
 

[wintermom]

Before sending out any letters, I'd probably talk with the priest and find out how much was in his control and what his stance on the mass was. Perhaps he cleared everything with the Bishop, or perhaps things happened he wasn't able to stop. You don't really know just by showing up for the mass.

[fdrinca]

If a parish is not following the rules of the Catholic Church then people should be complaining and it shouldn't be bitter or hateful. I find is disgraceful that a parish would choose to go against the teachings of the Catholic church. There is a reason for everything that is s allowed and not allowed during Mass and it is not acceptable for one parish to decide they know better than the Catholic church.

 

I don't know the rules in regards to washing of the fact feet but if I ever saw a liturgical dancein my Parish I would not silently sit around while it went on.

 

Right! It's not the fact that changes were made within the liturgy, but the types of changes that were put into place. The sacred liturgy isn't the place for entertainment. 

[fdrinca]

Before sending out any letters, I'd probably talk with the priest and find out how much was in his control and what his stance on the mass was. Perhaps he cleared everything with the Bishop, or perhaps things happened he wasn't able to stop. You don't really know just by showing up for the mass.

 

Good perspective. I'm pretty involved in the catechetical side of our parish, so I know some of workings and players involved. I'll try to drop a few leading questions our Transitional Deacon's way to see how this transpired. The service is the same as it was last year, but I was bogged down in PPD and transition to a new parish to really feel the disconnect.

[Tiramisu]

Basically what the title says. I'd love to be a fly on the wall on my church's liturgical committee meetings. From tonight's Holy Thursday service: There was no hesitation to use the term "liturgical dancers" in tonight's program. Our visiting priest ad-libbed the Eucharistic prayer. Our altar was replaced with a fully-set banquet table, around which sat 12 "apostles."

 

I'm not, in general, a super-traditional or conservative person. I do, though, think that centuries of serous, prayerful thought about what constitutes a valid liturgy shouldn't be discarded just because someone thinks it would be fun to pirouette the oils up the aisle.

 

You may have to speak up. 

 

As far as the visiting priest goes, who would be his superior? We have the same issue with visiting priests. They tend frequently ad lib and I've wondered if that's why they are floaters in the first place. Don't give up hope. We had one around here who ad libbed a lot. I believe he's more careful now, relying on the missal, and perhaps that's because someone addressed the issue with him. 

 

The liturgical committee may be overstepping their bounds if the pastor isn't standing up to them or doesn't know better himself or is rebellious himself. Some pastors worry about rocking the boat and try to avoid conflict. In which case it could be helpful to go to the diocese.

 

I'm sorry you had to sit through that. Until you are sure which step to take, pray for guidance.

[LMA]

Did the priest ad-lib the words of the Consecration? You may not have a valid consecration.

[Word Nerd]

Our foot washing always includes everyone who wants to participate. Its not a dead spot.

 

I think most people who complain about these things sound bitter and hateful. Also they typically are under involved and over opinionated. Full of complaining and superiority. And almost always from the ONLINE homeschool community, which in religion as in every other realm, is full of know it alls and sanctimonious women trying to one up everyone around them.

Your own words don't exactly sound winsome and loving.

[Cammie]

Just wanted to say...I find this discussion fascinating.  My dad (a pastor) has tried many, many things over his many years leading the church.  Some were hits, some were misses.  Some probably caused people to leave the church.  Of course, he didn't have a set liturgy to follow but even then people like what they know and often times new or different is not comfortable.  I don't understand all the issues about what is "allowed" or "not allowed" but I do hope you found something valuable in the service.  I have been to services that I just didn't connect with and that is never an enjoyable occasion.

 

Happy Easter!

[Alessandra]

 

I'm not, in general, a super-traditional or conservative person. I do, though, think that centuries of serous, prayerful thought about what constitutes a valid liturgy shouldn't be discarded just because someone thinks it would be fun to pirouette the oils up the aisle.

 

:iagree:  I agree that parishes which are part of churches with strong liturgical traditions, like op's, should be respectful of that heritage.

 

I think most people who complain about these things sound bitter and hateful.  Also they typically are under involved and over opinionated.  Full of complaining and superiority.  And almost always from the ONLINE homeschool community, which in religion as in every other realm, is full of know it alls and sanctimonious women trying to one up everyone around them.

 

I wonder if those comments refer to this board or to some other online forum.

 

Personally, I have found the people on WTM to be compassionate, understanding and willing to entertain viewpoints different from their own. Usually, if one poster advocates for a position and another poster has the exact opposite point of view, it is stated without slamming the previous poster. One of the many reasons I like this place is because people are open-minded. Opinionated, yes, which is fine in my book, but not bitter, hateful and sanctimonious. At least that is not how I see it at all.

[PrairieSong]

Our priest would never have allowed what you described, OP. I can't imagine that happening anywhere in our diocese.

[JustEm]

Before sending out any letters, I'd probably talk with the priest and find out how much was in his control and what his stance on the mass was. Perhaps he cleared everything with the Bishop, or perhaps things happened he wasn't able to stop. You don't really know just by showing up for the mass.

 

 

I agree with speaking to the pastor before speaking to the bishop but not with anything else in this comment.  EVERYTHING should be in the pastors control when it comes to the Mass.  If the group that organizes the liturgy is in anyway violating the Church rules then it is the pastors responsibility to stop that before it gets as far as happening during Mass.  And even if it happens in Mass the pastor should have stopped it the second it started.  He knows the rules (I'b be worried if the pastor didn't.)   Now with the ad libbing that is harder for him to control since it was a visiting priest but the liturgical dancers should have never been allowed for him.  The bishop can't even give permission for liturgical dancers.  

[happi duck]

My kids were at a service that included a humorous skit depicting when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac...humorous...weird.