Hikin' Mama Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I know how to tip in restaurants and always tip well, but I'm unsure of what contstitues a proper tip in a hotel. True confession: I never tipped in a hotel until I read the book Nickel and Dimed. I am a very clean hotel guest and I had failed to realize that other people are not so conscientious. :( So how do you determine how much to tip? Do you tip every day or at the end of your stay? Thank you for your input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnIslandGirl Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We tip each day, as the staff could change throughout your vacation. As a family of 3 we typically tip (In local currency, but these are the average US equivalents): $5 for the day maid $5 for the mini-fridge re-stocker if staying all-inclusive (not the same person as the maid) $5 for turn down service maid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We tip daily. Usually $5 a day for the house cleaner. $3-$5 for the concierge lounge attendee. More if she goes out of her way for us. Bellboy- $1 a bag. I think that's it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Valet parking at urban hotels? What is your standard tip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We tip daily - $5 for the maid - and if doing an extended stay, I'll also leave a bag of Lindt assorted truffles on one of the days. We've gotten nice notes back for that one. ;) Bellboy also gets $5 unless we just have backpacks or something. Valet parking? Just $2 as I prefer NOT needing valet, so the tip is more grudgingly offered unless we CHOSE to use it (rare). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 $3-$5 for each - The guy who takes my car and the guy who picks it up for me. It just depends on how much cash I have on hand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We don't use valet parking that often either but there is a hotel that my husband uses for business that only has valet parking. I think we have been behind the times on the amount of our tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I had no idea one was suppossed to tip the maid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We don't use valet parking that often either but there is a hotel that my husband uses for business that only has valet parking. I think we have been behind the times on the amount of our tip. We may be behind the times too, but when it's not a choice we have, I don't really care. ;) When it is a choice, and we choose it we'll go with our standard $5. Ditto that for when we choose to use "free" shuttles or such things (to airports or wherever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I had no idea one was suppossed to tip the maid Me neither. Maybe I'm not staying in the right hotels. We never see the maid. She visits while we're out. Or it could be a he. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I had no idea one was suppossed to tip the maid Most people don't tip hotel maids, and it's optional. It isn't a tips-based position like being a waiter, but it's nice to leave $2-$5 if you choose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Me neither. Maybe I'm not staying in the right hotels. We never see the maid. She visits while we're out. Or it could be a he. :) The tip is left on a table or dresser. Some motels provide envelopes to put the $$ in, but most don't. Most people don't tip hotel maids, and it's optional. It isn't a tips-based position like being a waiter, but it's nice to leave $2-$5 if you choose. Perhaps it's regional, but tips are more the norm than not around here (according to an acquaintance I know who worked as a maid). Even with tips, they are hardly moving into the top wage earners bracket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Even with tips, they are hardly moving into the top wage earners bracket. I did not even remotely suggest otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I did not even remotely suggest otherwise. Agreed - just a comment I made in case people were thinking it is more normal NOT to tip and then thought the maids were being paid enough due to their salaries (unlike waiters). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 As a former hotel maid of 2 1/2 weeks, the tips were appreciated. I cleaned at a tiny motor-lodge. You're not supposed to see the maid unless you call, that's the point really. I made minimum wage with no guarantee of hours, so your pay could vary every week. In our little town $3 if you stayed one night would be a normal tip (most didn't tip). Multiple night $5. If you see a sign that someone cleaned your room, that's the place to leave a tip. Generally, I didn't expect one until you checked out, not a daily tip. However, because tipping is completely optional, other things were appreciated. 1. don't be a freakin' slob, at least get your trash near the can please 2. pile all your towels in one area when you check out, the bathroom floor is good. 3. make sure you flush the toilet and report any issues before you check out - no one likes that kind of surprise 4. If you don't to be disturbed, put out the sign. We're happy to give fresh towels or take your trash if that is all you need, but most maids can't leave until all rooms are checked and if you're sleeping in and don't want to be disturbed say so. 5. If you're in a smoking room, please use the ashtrays and not the sink. 6. If you're drinking in the room, please dump the half empty beers before checking out. 7. If you take the comforter off the bed, don't put it on the floor unless there is no place else. Those don't get washed after every guest and we don't want to know what lurks in the carpet either. I took a trip after I left that job. You can bet I left tips, most were $3 per night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We tip several dollars a day and a little more on checkout. We also try to make life as easy as possible for housekeeping. It's a tough job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 $2 to $3 per bed per night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 It is usually just dh and I, so unless we leave a mess of some kind, I don't really tip the daily maid. I will leave a note saying all we need are towels and toiletries (if needed) and they will usually make the bed while there. I don't need a full room cleaning every day as we don't spend much time in our room on vacation. I make sure the counters are clear of our things, suitcases are in the closet and the room picked up so if the maid is required/compelled to clean more, they aren't having to do it around our things. We have had a few birthday parties for dd15 in a hotel room. For those, I tip $5-10 depending on the mess. I ask for a black garbage bag and take care of the majority of the clean up (cake boxes, decorations, wrapping paper etc) but since there is usually more floor debris, every towel and bed used, the counters are dirtier (teen girls in the bathroom) and they have to take out our black bag(s).... I make sure they get a bit extra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 $5 a night. I don't normally stay at places with valet parking, so I don't know how much to tip there, but I do know what we did last time. My aunt, brother and I took my mom to Boston for her 60th last fall. We stayed at a nice hotel ($400/night) and they had valet parking and took our bags, treated us very well as we arrived. My mom whispered to me "what do we tip? $10? $20?" I said I didn't know, so she grabbed a $20 and handed it to the man helping us. His eyes lit up and we were treated like royalty for the rest of the weekend. So I would say $20 is too much unless you want the royal treatment! :-) My aunt and brother, who had arrived separately, kept wondering why the hotel staff were being so nice to mom and I! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I tip at least $5 a night. I don't get to stay in a hotel very often, so I really appreciate tiny toiletries and fresh towels and someone making my bed. Lots of times I tip $10. When we were in Richmond at the Jefferson, I tipped every $20. It was a blast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 $5 a night. I don't normally stay at places with valet parking, so I don't know how much to tip there, but I do know what we did last time. My aunt, brother and I took my mom to Boston for her 60th last fall. We stayed at a nice hotel ($400/night) and they had valet parking and took our bags, treated us very well as we arrived. My mom whispered to me "what do we tip? $10? $20?" I said I didn't know, so she grabbed a $20 and handed it to the man helping us. His eyes lit up and we were treated like royalty for the rest of the weekend. So I would say $20 is too much unless you want the royal treatment! :-) My aunt and brother, who had arrived separately, kept wondering why the hotel staff were being so nice to mom and I! We commonly tip VERY well at places we frequent fairly often (restaurants or hotels) or expect to. It's worth it to us... and I like to support those working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 $5 a night. I don't normally stay at places with valet parking, so I don't know how much to tip there, but I do know what we did last time. My aunt, brother and I took my mom to Boston for her 60th last fall. We stayed at a nice hotel ($400/night) and they had valet parking and took our bags, treated us very well as we arrived. My mom whispered to me "what do we tip? $10? $20?" I said I didn't know, so she grabbed a $20 and handed it to the man helping us. His eyes lit up and we were treated like royalty for the rest of the weekend. So I would say $20 is too much unless you want the royal treatment! :-) My aunt and brother, who had arrived separately, kept wondering why the hotel staff were being so nice to mom and I! We do this occasionally - especially if we are staying somewhere for a while and will be in the hotel a lot. I love good customer service and I'm willing to pay for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I've never left a tip for a hotel maid. We keep the "Do Not Disturb" sign out the whole time we stay so there is no daily cleaning. When we need towels or anything else we just call, but we rarely need anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Perhaps it's regional, but tips are more the norm than not around here (according to an acquaintance I know who worked as a maid). It's the norm here too, though when I've stayed for multiple days, I left one larger tip at the end of my stay, rather than a smaller daily tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanny Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We leave a very short note for the maid, thanking her and explaining that the money is a tip for her. Sometimes, if they see money, that we have left for a tip, without a note, they will not take the money, thinking that it is a test of their honesty. We do not tip the day we checkout. If we need something (extra towels, etc.) we include that information on the note for the maid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We leave a very short note for the maid, thanking her and explaining that the money is a tip for her. Sometimes, if they see money, that we have left for a tip, without a note, they will not take the money, thinking that it is a test of their honesty. We do not tip the day we checkout. If we need something (extra towels, etc.) we include that information on the note for the maid. Where my acquaintance worked, they were not allowed to take any money left out by people continuing their visit UNLESS there was a note. They'd be fired if they did and it was found out. They were, of course, expected to keep tips from guests who had checked out or from those where there were notes left. They kept the notes too - as proof. She worked in a vacation area. Motels/hotels do their best at keeping customers happy as there is a bit of competition. There can be (and often is) high turnover in maids at pricy places if customers complain. I imagine the tips are lower and/or less common at less pricy places, so those who are working tend to try their best to keep their jobs - if they want them. My acquaintance ended up leaving due to it being "too much work" for her... but that's a different thread as there's a bit of a story to go with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I love leaving tips for the maids when we go to Disney World. We tip $5 per day, and to let our "Mousekeeper" know it's for her, we put the money in a cute envelope, and I make a towel animal and stick the whole thing in the bathroom sink. If you've ever been to Disney, you know towel animals are a big thing for the Mousekeeping staff to leave in your room. When we leave them one...we get several in return. Very creative ones! It's been a really fun thing for my kids to see what kind of towel origami the mousekeeper left for them each night. Here's one site with some Mousekeeping envelope templates for the rest of you mouse junkies out there. There are many others...just google "mousekeeping envelopes". http://wdwprepschool.com/printable-customizable-and-cute-mousekeeping-money-envelopes/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Diane - I love making out those envelopes! We had a wonderful Mousekeeper there one year. She made elaborate towel animals and had them interacting with my dd's stuffed animals. One day, one of the animals was reading a book to the others. Another, they were trying to make an escape out the door. It was VERY sweet! She deserved every bit of her tip!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Diane - I love making out those envelopes! We had a wonderful Mousekeeper there one year. She made elaborate towel animals and had them interacting with my dd's stuffed animals. One day, one of the animals was reading a book to the others. Another, they were trying to make an escape out the door. It was VERY sweet! She deserved every bit of her tip!!! We love Mousekeeping! They do the cutest things. They've set up our stuffed animals in little vignettes, too. It's adorable. I actually invested in a book of towel folding so that I could make cute animals for them. Because I'm insane like that. LOL This is one of my favorites: http://www.amazon.com/Towel-Folding-Discover-Wonderful-Origami/dp/0760779597/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1396115035&sr=8-2&keywords=towel+origami Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 My comment above about "most people" not tipping hotel maids refers to this: "Survey data shows that about 30% of U.S. hotel guests leave tips for hotel housekeepers, according to Michael Lynn, a professor at the Cornell University School of Hotel Administration." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikin' Mama Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Thanks for all the input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 The irony is that the worse the guests leave the room, the lower the probablity of a tip. I leave $5 a day in the AM out when we leave the room along with Thanks! scrawled on the free notepad and any extra requests (like more towels or an extra robe.) honestly, so long as you don't trash the room or make advances on the maid, you are a good guest, tip or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 My comment above about "most people" not tipping hotel maids refers to this: "Survey data shows that about 30% of U.S. hotel guests leave tips for hotel housekeepers, according to Michael Lynn, a professor at the Cornell University School of Hotel Administration." Thanks for the stats! I knew my info could be skewed due to being in a vacation area and her working in a higher class place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 It's the norm here too, though when I've stayed for multiple days, I left one larger tip at the end of my stay, rather than a smaller daily tip.I did that before I worked as a hotel and B&B maid. Different staff may be cleaning each day and I would rather each get their tip than one cleaner pocketing the whole amount. yeah, I worked with someone that cheated the rest of us out of our tips of she ever could. So that's my reasoning for tipping each day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 $2-5 is standard, with the quality of the hotel affecting the expectation. Tipping housekeeping is not as common as it once was, and in many hotel chains it is fairly uncommon. One tidbit: always leave a note with the tip so that there is no confusion as o whether the money you have left out is for the housekeeper. Also, if you have the room cleaned daily, it is best to tip daily, not at the end of the stay. Your housekeeper on day 3 may not be who cleaned the room on days 1 and 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excelsior! Academy Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We tip the maid $2-$3 per day per room. (We usually have multiple rooms) We leave a note that says, "Thank you!!" and put it near the sink area or on a pillow with the $. I did not know $5 was standard. We are usually good tippers. Guess we'll have to up it a bit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I had no idea one was "supposed" to tip. I stayed at a hotel this week and probably would not have tipped, anyway. The maids kept trying to enter the room to clean when we were in the room with the tag (Do not Disturb) out. Once we got back from the pool and the maids were entering our room-tag still visible. It got really annoying. Partly because of my sleeping toddler twice when they were trying to enter. I don't live in a touristy area and almost never go to tourist spots, so this is all new to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Having had the pleasure of cleaning motel rooms during high school, tips were much appreciated by me. Sometimes it took hours to clean one room particularly if the occupant threw up everywhere, clogged the toilet and let it overflow or did who-knows-what in the room. We always tip daily and leave the room easy to clean because I know what the cleaning people have to deal with occasionally. They have my sympathy. :ack2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I had no idea one was "supposed" to tip. I stayed at a hotel this week and probably would not have tipped, anyway. The maids kept trying to enter the room to clean when we were in the room with the tag (Do not Disturb) out. Once we got back from the pool and the maids were entering our room-tag still visible. It got really annoying. Partly because of my sleeping toddler twice when they were trying to enter. I don't live in a touristy area and almost never go to tourist spots, so this is all new to me. DH had that happen to him recently on a trip. When he asked why the housekeeper tried to enter with the sign up, she told him that she "was entering to look for signs of damage." Very odd. DH had a discussion with the hotel manager later and let's just say that property is no longer on the list of hotels he will choose from in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabinfl Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I tip $5-10 per night depending on how good the service is & how long we're staying. If there's turndown service, toiletries & coffee are kept well-stocked, or other little niceties or personal service (like setting up the kids' loveys neatly atop the bed or leaving extra towels when they notice how many we use), I will leave $10 / day, each day (esp. for longer stays where staff may change before we leave). For run-of-the-mill bare minimum cleaning, it will be towards the lower end, more likely all at once when we depart. If it's a bad job, I will leave little or nothing, especially for a short stay. Even traveling with kids, we tend to be very neat hotel guests -- our belongings are tidy & out of the way before we leave the room, dirty towels all in one place, toiletries off to one side in the bathroom, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmandaVT Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 We leave a very short note for the maid, thanking her and explaining that the money is a tip for her. Sometimes, if they see money, that we have left for a tip, without a note, they will not take the money, thinking that it is a test of their honesty. We do not tip the day we checkout. If we need something (extra towels, etc.) we include that information on the note for the maid. Yes, I always leave a little note. I usually just write "thank you for taking care of our room!!" with a smiley face. But I want the cleaning staff to know it's for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChocolateReignRemix Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Having had the pleasure of cleaning motel rooms during high school, tips were much appreciated by me. Sometimes it took hours to clean one room particularly if the occupant threw up everywhere, clogged the toilet and let it overflow or did who-knows-what in the room. We always tip daily and leave the room easy to clean because I know what the cleaning people have to deal with occasionally. They have my sympathy. :ack2: Yuck. And I feel bad abut leaving wet towels behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in NH Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I hang a do-not-disturb sign for my entire visit, tidy up after myself before I leave, and make sure to put all the towels and sheets in one easy-to-grab place. But I don't tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoseInABook Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I was a housekeeper for a whopping two weeks and no one ever tipped. I was surprised to learn that people do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hikin' Mama Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 The irony is that the worse the guests leave the room, the lower the probablity of a tip. I leave $5 a day in the AM out when we leave the room along with Thanks! scrawled on the free notepad and any extra requests (like more towels or an extra robe.) honestly, so long as you don't trash the room or make advances on the maid, you are a good guest, tip or not. Well that makes me feel better for all the times I didn't tip. Before we leave our room, I always tidy up. When my daughter was little, she would even make the beds. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in OH Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I have learned a lot about hotel housekeeping since I help create employment opportunities for refugees. As you probably all know, hotel housekeeping is a common entry level job for limited English proficient speakers. Here's what I have learned about housekeeping: It is an incredibly physical job. Lifting many comforters per day (Including wrestling with duvet covers), bending, stooping, and reaching really can take a toll on your back and body. The pay for these jobs is low given the physical demands. In our city, the going rate is about $.50 per hour over minimum wage. Our clients do this job as a primary source of income for their families. Most, but certainly not all, housekeepers are women. Rooms are assigned daily to a housekeeper in a mix of "stayovers" and "checkouts". Housekeepers are given approximately 15 minutes to clean a stayover, 25-30 for a checkout. These time amounts include the time it takes to travel from room to room, including between floors, and to keep checking back to see if rooms have removed their "Do Not Disturb" signs. Housekeepers have to be excellent managers of their time. Most hotels assign between 18-24 rooms to each housekeeper per day based on the mix of stayovers and checkouts. I believe that tipping housekeepers is money well spent. It brings their pay in line with a proper rate for the hard labor they do, and it helps support families who are trying to make ends meet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Staying at a hotel also helps those families make ends meet, as without guests, there would be no job or wage in the first place. People should tip--but not because of a guilt trip. The tone in a few of these posts makes it sound like people should feel bad because their presence at a hotel means more work for the maids, which is odd to me because that's the point of the job. You're paying for that service, whether you tip or not. Wages are the employer's responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 We pay $3 each day for a regular hotel room and a minimum of mess and $5 a day for a suite or if there is excess garbage or clutter to work around because of the kids. If there are bloody towels or sheets (from noses or other issues) or vomit to deal with, we clean up the best we can and leave extra along with a note of explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommymilkies Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 DH had that happen to him recently on a trip. When he asked why the housekeeper tried to enter with the sign up, she told him that she "was entering to look for signs of damage." Very odd. DH had a discussion with the hotel manager later and let's just say that property is no longer on the list of hotels he will choose from in the future. It's frustrating! I'm weird about privacy, and I'm a very neat person. I always clean up the room and leave it easy to clean and don't leave any messes. I totally sympathize for the cleaners. I've seen them stripping some truly awful disasters, and when I worked at one CNA job our work included stripping, disinfecting, and resetting hospital rooms and patient care. But I still find tipping weird, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 We'll be tipping again (unexpectedly) tonight. Freezing rain and snow/slush in the mountains along with seeing more accidents than we were able to count caused us to change plans and return home tomorrow. A $5 tip is less expensive than a tow and replacing the car (or parts). It's also cheaper than the years continuing the drive would take off our life. Already we should be less than an hour from home. Instead we're a little over 3 hours - all due to weather and accidents. Fortunately, youngest is home to take care of the cat and critter needs! (He was on a different trip and returned before we did.) Oh, and our tips ARE voluntary - not "guilt trips" or whatever. I sincerely feel those cleaning deserve it regardless of what their basic wage is (knowing that wage is not high) and would hate to ever stiff them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.