Mom28kds Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 or is something like Easy Grammar and Daily Grams just fine as long as they learn the parts of speech. I'm currently doing ABEKA for my 3rd grade LA and think I want to switch for next year because as I do like repetition I think it's a bit overkill at this level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Since it's the only fun part of grammar, you should definitely do it. :D I added diagramming to Shurley, so yes I'd encourage you to add it to your new program. Shurley gave 3 sentences a day to parse, and we just picked the middle one and did it on the whiteboard, easy peasy and fun. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeegal Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Yes, sometimes the children can answer the questions correctly but can't diagram. I've found diagramming is a good indicator of their actual understanding of the grammar. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My3girls Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Yes, I think diagramming is important to understand grammar usage and sentence structure. Plus, it's fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thundersweet Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 We use Easy Grammar and love it! My dd has a good handle on grammar. Sandy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 No. And I completely disagree that it's "fun" for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 No. And I completely disagree that it's "fun" for all. Well see that's why the world goes round, cuz we have all types. :D I took a class on advanced grammar in college where we explored other types of diagramming and discussed the theories behind them. It's really fascinating, trees vs. traditional vs.... PS. It's probably fun in our house because we use a whiteboard, crack jokes, and change all the sentences to include clowns or LotR or whatever seems fun to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Well, you can see in my siggie that I'm a diagramming partisan. LOL. I think it really depends on your child's learning style. My kids all did it happily and liked grammar and diagramming. But I also think some kids, like my youngest, exhibit a considerable gap between what they *think* they understand, and what they can verbalize, describe, and execute. Perhaps because of his processing\dyslexic issues. So diagramming has really helped him bridge the gap between a superficial grasp of grammar and a mastery of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 To clarify, I did find it fun when I was a kid. But I know my boys. They will not. And I don't think it's necessary for all kids. Lots of routes to mastery of the English language. It's one good path, but there are others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I love diagramming, and my oldest DS inherited my unnatural affection for it. He ridiculously loves diagramming. He purposefully seeks out the hardest sentences he can find and especially enjoys the challenge of reading diagrammed sentences. Sister Bernadette's Barking Dog is really giving him a run for his money this week. The sentences in that book are just...WOW! :blink: I do not think everyone enjoys it, but it is a great tool for true understanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helena Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I love diagramming, and my oldest DS inherited my unnatural affection for it. He ridiculously loves diagramming. He purposefully seeks out the hardest sentences he can find and especially enjoys the challenge of reading diagrammed sentences. Sister Bernadette's Barking Dog is really giving him a run for his money this week. The sentences in that book are just...WOW! :blink: I do not think everyone enjoys it, but it is a great tool for true understanding. Thanks for mentioning the Sister Bernadette book! I'm going to run over to the library and get it this morning. My kids just started learning to diagram this year and they like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73349 Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I don't think it's important for its own sake, but some of the kids I've taught found that diagramming made grammar make sense in a way that it hadn't previously for them (despite years of labeling sentences). So I think you should offer it to kids, and if they hate it, you can drop it as long as the basic concepts are there. I am looking forward to letting DS try it in a few years--he likes visual stuff. Kids love silly sentences. Make them alliterative; make them absurd; make them like Mad Libs. And then, for another level of challenge, play Sentence the Diagram. You provide a diagram and let the students make up a sentence that fits it correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 No, I do not think it is important. In my home country, diagramming is not a concept that exists at all. We still manage to learn how to use our native language correctly (some of us, at least, LOL). My kids, DH, and I also learned to write and speak in grammatically correct English without every diagramming a single sentence. Of course, diagramming can be fun - if that is the case for you, do it. But necessary - no, it is not ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grover Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Diagramming is not taught or even known here. I've never seen a sentence diagrammed in real life. So I'd say not necessary, indeed, I've never been clear on the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawz4me Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I showed both of my boys some examples of diagramming, just so they'd recognize the strangeness if they ever saw it in the future. But we didn't "do" it. At that point (middle school) they each already had a very good grasp of grammar. For a child who struggles with grammar, especially a visual learner, I can certainly see where it could be worthwhile. But I don't think it's important or necessary for all kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think understanding grammar completely is important. You could come up with another method to accomplish this, of course, but diagramming has a long track record and is fairly easy to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 or is something like Easy Grammar and Daily Grams just fine as long as they learn the parts of speech. I'm currently doing ABEKA for my 3rd grade LA and think I want to switch for next year because as I do like repetition I think it's a bit overkill at this level. No. It may be useful occasionally, but "important," no. Just...not. I have read that we are the only English-speaking population that does diagramming. I wonder how everyone else manages without it? :D FTR, ABeka beats grammar to death...every.single.year for 12 years. No one needs that much grammar! I'm a big fan of Easy Grammar (Daily Grams...not so much, and not simultaneously with Easy Grammar). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I moved a lot as a kid. Some places diagrammed and some didn't. I never really understood it, but I was not exposed to it consistently. I did great with writing in high school and college. I wrote some after college for various things and did fine. Diagramming wasn't essential for me at all. I just absorbed proper grammar from voracious reading and a lot of writing. Made a near perfect score on the language arts portion of the SAT. That being said, some kids need something like that to make grammar make more sense. Some actually find it fun (though I think that depends on how it is presented by the parent/teacher and the individual child). I don't think it hurts to do diagramming at all, and may be a really good thing to add in to make a well-rounded United States version of Grammar. But I agree with some of the PPs, it isn't mandatory for learning grammar. A great many countries don't use it at all and they seem to do just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 The discussion raised the following question for me: why is diagramming done in English, considering that the English grammar is rather simple, compared to many other languages? There are no genders, no declensions, only very rudimentary conjugations, no perfective/imperfective aspects... So really, not a whole lot going on. So, diagramming despite or because of the grammatical poverty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The discussion raised the following question for me: why is diagramming done in English, considering that the English grammar is rather simple, compared to many other languages? There are no genders, no declensions, only very rudimentary conjugations, no perfective/imperfective aspects... So really, not a whole lot going on. So, diagramming despite or because of the grammatical poverty? Really interesting thought! I wonder if someone out there has done research and has a theory. I will say this. Even though I posted that I didn't need diagramming to do great in reading and writing throughout high school, college, early jobs, now that I am trying to teach grammar to my kids, I realize that teaching it is very different from personally applying it. I KNOW what works and what doesn't but I can't seem to tell them why. Diagramming might have helped with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepatica Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The discussion raised the following question for me: why is diagramming done in English, considering that the English grammar is rather simple, compared to many other languages? There are no genders, no declensions, only very rudimentary conjugations, no perfective/imperfective aspects... So really, not a whole lot going on. So, diagramming despite or because of the grammatical poverty? I don't have much experiences with languages besides latin, but I am going to guess "because of." At least in latin, for the most part, the purpose of the word in the sentence is clear from the ending used. This is not the case in English. The same word can be used in multiple ways. Perhaps that explains the penchant for diagramming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I don't have much experiences with languages besides latin, but I am going to guess "because of." At least in latin, for the most part, the purpose of the word in the sentence is clear from the ending used. This is not the case in English. The same word can be used in multiple ways. Perhaps that explains the penchant for diagramming. OTOH, English has very strong restrictions about the order of words, so often the word order alone clarifies the sentence structure. For example, in the sentence "the child gives the man the book" it is absolutely clear who is subject, direct, and indirect object and who gives what to whom. OTOH, in German, the same sentence can be ordered in six different ways with respect to child-man-book, since all permutations are possible, and only an ending at the article indicates the function of the word; the order of words provides no information. (And compared to Russian, German grammar is quite easy) Interesting stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemota Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Funny, I just asked my MIL this same question the other day. She an English PhD; over the years she's taught a LOT of Freshman English courses, at several different colleges and levels (university and community). In her opinion, diagramming is a method to help a student understand the parts of speech and how they are used in a sentence. But it is not necessary. Recognizing how the English language works as a whole is far more important, particularly in how it is used in students' writing. For some students who need to see the breakdown of a sentence into it's basic parts, it can be helpful. But other students (particularly the ones who are well-read) tend to have a very good grasp of proper structure anyhow, so it's really nothing more than busywork for them. FWIW, I enjoyed diagramming in school. My son never learned it in his school, and I don't plan to teach it to elder DD who has an excellent grasp of grammar already. I prefer to have her focus on applying her grammar knowledge through writing, which is what MIL wished her students had been taught more of. The majority of them could not think outside of the 5 paragraph essay, and their written expression was awful. It's one of the reasons she decided to leave teaching. So..... if your child has a good solid basis in grammar, no, it's not important. But if they don't have that, diagramming can help them to "see" the grammar better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatHomeschoolDad Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Thumbs up for diagramming. Warriner's has some of it, which is one more reason I like such an old-school program (and why I liked FLL). I don't think it's a cornerstone of grammar, per se, but neither is School House Rock. Writing might be an art, but grammar is engineering, and should be a get-in-there-with-a-hammer sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madteaparty Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Not in my view. I also do not teach formal grammar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbutton Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 My fairly visual son took to diagramming strongly and instinctively. I am glad I tried it. I think MCT four-level analysis is another good way to look at sentences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 No one outside the US (that I know of) has ever learnt or used diagramming. Yet, millions of non-native English speakers use English correctly. So, no. Diagramming is not necessary or important. A good understanding of grammar is important. Diagramming is merely a tool that aids some learners (mainly visual learners) in understanding the grammar. My dd, for example, intuitively gets grammar and can explain verbally what each word does in a sentence. She does not enjoy diagramming. For her, it is just another extra thing to learn, in order to show me what she has already understood. I learnt diagramming for fun over the last few years. I enjoyed it because I am a visual learner (and growing more so with age) and because I already knew the underlying grammar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I enjoy diagramming as much as I like a good crossword or sudoku puzzle. While its *importance* may be debatable, I know where I have found it to be helpful. I remember having English papers returned to me with a sentence underlined, the only comment next to it being that dreaded word: "Awkward!" (I always thought, dang, if *I* thought it was awkward I wouldn't have written it that way to begin with!) Anyway, diagramming can often help a student figure out just what exactly is awkward about a sentence marked so. Or a bit of writing that just doesn't flow like it should. Often there are dangling parts that can be diagnosed via diagramming. Now that I think about it, those doozies in Mom in High Heels' thread last night should have sent us all running to our whiteboards. Those were some truly awkward sentences! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom2scouts Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I liked diagramming when I was a student, but I don't teach it. We use MCT 4 level analysis and I like the way it makes grammar easy to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I consult with a test prep company. A lot of our clients are people coming from other countries to become teachers in America. They need to pass a certification test. On that test is an essay. If they fail the essay portion of the test, they fail the entire test. My job at the test prep company is to give them practice essays and get their writing skills up to date. The practice essays theygive to me are filled with wonderful ideas and these are clearly intelligent people, but the grammar! Oh, the grammar! It's terrible. Often, by the time they come to me they have failed their certification a few times and it's clearly because of their grammar. (No consideration is given if English is a second language. You must have a properly written essay without distracting grammatical errors.) I have often thought that if they knew how to diagram sentences they would be able to pass the certification without problems. Spoken English and recreational writing are different from essay writing. I believe diagramming helps to set a person up to be able to create complex pieces of writing. Oh--and have you ever read the original documents from the Revolutionary time period? Those include some mighty complex sentences! The history certification test involves reading an original document and then writing an essay about it. They often struggle with the complex sentences. Again, if they could diagram the sentences, they could understand what is modifying what and could interpret the sentences much easier. And that's not for ESL students. That's for anyone. As others have said, there may be other methods for understanding the interplay of the words, but diagramming is a great way to demonstrate and apply that knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom28kds Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Thanks everyone!! This gives me a lot to think about. Now I need to figure out my plan for next year LA :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Diagramming is a visual way to represent relationships within a sentence. It is a very useful tool. It is not "important" in and of itself. But I think it is one way to make grammar really make sense to younger kids and older kids alike. My 7 year old can diagram basic sentences really well, and understood the idea of adjective vs adverb well before he had memorized those parts of speech. Same with object of the preposition, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heather124 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 New to homeschool this year, and new to the classical method of education as a whole, so I'm in no way knowledgeable about the subject. However,I downloaded Susan Wise Bauer's mp3 lecture on writing in the middle grades (loved it by the way) and she clearly believes diagraming is a very important tool for helping children fix or find what is wrong in their sentences. She advices to continue with a grammar/writing program that offers it through the middle grades. Not sure if she believes so during the high school years though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonfirmath Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 or is something like Easy Grammar and Daily Grams just fine as long as they learn the parts of speech. I'm currently doing ABEKA for my 3rd grade LA and think I want to switch for next year because as I do like repetition I think it's a bit overkill at this level. Wel... since one way or another I managed to get through school without ever diagramming a sentence and I've never regretted this (I might change my mind when it comes time to help my kid diagram)... I'd say it is not important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I haven't read the other replies, but I think diagramming can be very helpful. Perhaps especially so for visual learners? I loved learning to diagram, but then I'm an organizer by nature. Our teacher used to give us long sentences - 3 chalkboards long to do. Colored chalk, competition, stand up and move around - we loved it. Not as fun working individually at a table or desk. Necessary to a good understanding of English grammar and syntax, probably not. Use it if it helps. Don't worry about it if it doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamakelly Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I don't think it's important for its own sake, but some of the kids I've taught found that diagramming made grammar make sense in a way that it hadn't previously for them (despite years of labeling sentences). I few months ago I would have said diagramming isn't important. But....I've spent the past few months doing Analytical Grammar with my 14 yo. Sentence structure is finally sinking in, and I think it's because of the diagramming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsabelC Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Well I managed to get excellent results in a first class honors degree majoring in English, as well as high distinctions for every essay when I started another degree, and I have never diagrammed a sentence in my life. However, I might be like the one person everyone seems to know who smoked like a chimney and lived to 90. Maybe it's like mind maps, useful to some people but not for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 I was taught diagramming as a child. I found it fun. :) I teach it to my kids, too. My kids are well-read and true bibliophiles, but one has the hardest time knowing how to FIX those awkward sentences. He can identify that something is off, but he's not always able to pinpoint it correctly so as to correct it. He doesn't love diagramming, and some days he actively resists it ... but he's also the first to begrudgingly admit that it's proven useful and has helped him correct his writing errors. So I fall into the camp that it's a great tool, and that most kids will benefit from some exposure to it - particularly kids whose writing (or public speaking!) could use a little tweak or tune-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 OTOH, English has very strong restrictions about the order of words, so often the word order alone clarifies the sentence structure. For example, in the sentence "the child gives the man the book" it is absolutely clear who is subject, direct, and indirect object and who gives what to whom. OTOH, in German, the same sentence can be ordered in six different ways with respect to child-man-book, since all permutations are possible, and only an ending at the article indicates the function of the word; the order of words provides no information. (And compared to Russian, German grammar is quite easy) Interesting stuff. For comparison, Chinese is similar to English, relying heavily on word order. In Chinese, verbs do not change for person, and separate time-signifiers (often omitted) are used to denote tense. Plural signifiers can be added to nouns, but they are also often omitted in speech. Articles are not used. The following sentence in Chinese is, I believe, right (corrections welcome if I've messed up): I, with my child together, yesterday to park go. 'child' could be more than one child. Go represents the perfect tense in this case. L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryanne Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I enjoy diagramming as much as I like a good crossword or sudoku puzzle. While its *importance* may be debatable, I know where I have found it to be helpful. I remember having English papers returned to me with a sentence underlined, the only comment next to it being that dreaded word: "Awkward!" (I always thought, dang, if *I* thought it was awkward I wouldn't have written it that way to begin with!) Anyway, diagramming can often help a student figure out just what exactly is awkward about a sentence marked so. Or a bit of writing that just doesn't flow like it should. Often there are dangling parts that can be diagnosed via diagramming. Now that I think about it, those doozies in Mom in High Heels' thread last night should have sent us all running to our whiteboards. Those were some truly awkward sentences! Yes, I remember the dreaded "awk" label (my teachers always abbreviated). Now when one of my dc has an awk sentence I can usually also find a grammar problem with it and will help them identify and correct the grammar error, rather than label their sentence awk which was distinctly unhelpful when I was in school. I don't think diagramming is mandatory to fully understand grammar; some, maybe even many, students will get a good enough grasp without it. It's a really useful tool to aid in the teaching of grammar, and for some students will make the difference between understanding and not. I liked diagramming when I was in school, but did not like writing and did not learn enough grammar and diagramming to fix my awk sentences. I hope to do better with my dc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laundrycrisis Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 Everyone should have a method of understanding sentence construction that works for them. Diagramming is one way to do that. IMO it is worthwhile for every student to try out diagramming, because you don't know what is going to work best for someone until you try different methods. I remember when I first learned to diagram, in 3rd grade. I loved it and it was very helpful. Later, I switched to my own system involving circling, drawing arrows, underlining and putting phrases in parenthesis, but I first had the understanding that was based on diagramming. Then when I started learning grammar in Spanish, I used diagramming for a while, and then switched over to my other system. It's a good thing to have skill with a tool - then when you need it, you know how to use it. I'm planning to combine diagramming, Easy Grammar, and Spanish for our 6th grader next year. It's going to be fun ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.