WWYD? Stick it out or let her quit... (Updated)

[Joker]

This is not a JAWM. Right now I am upset and want to get her out of the class, but I want other opinions and to think it through.

 

Both dds are in public school for middle school and this is regarding my youngest. She is in 6th and is 11 years old (won't turn 12 until the summer).

 

She is in beginning band and is set to receive her first C. She is an A/B student so far and in the Honors program. She has zero discipline issues, is always on time, always prepared, and tries her absolute best. Her C in band is strictly based on what the instructor says are poor performances (verified via email conversations). She does well on all written assignments, so she is learning music but isn't playing it well (or at least up to his standards).

 

This is beginning band so no experience was expected or necessary. She has never played an instrument prior to this or learned about/to read music.

 

Dd hates it. She dreads having to go back to his class and she feels like she isn't good enough. She practices daily and tries her best but he deems it only worthy of a C. This knocks her off the honor roll - and it's for beginning band!

 

My personal feeling is that beginning band should be about learning and not so much about how well you play, but maybe I'm wrong. It seems if she's trying and doing well in every other area of band, that's it's ridiculous to punish her for not executing the instrument so well yet.

 

So, a new semester just started. Is it okay to let her quit and ask for a different elective? I don't even know for sure if there is space for her someplace else but do I push it and ask? Or, do I make her stick it out and just deal with it?

 

Update: She was moved and it was not a big deal at all.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'd do my homework and find out what else is available.  Then, yes, I would allow her to quit.  It doesn't seem worth it for band and I'm a musician!  

[zoobie]

Drop it! He will kill any potential love of music.

[JustEm]

Beginning band should certainly be about learning and not how well you play and if that is truly what she is getting a C for then I say drop it.

[Anne in CA]

I am all for high standards but this seems like a bizarre power play of some sort. Giving a beginning student a C in band???  

[Joker]

Well, depends how you view a C. Here a C means 'sound'.

 

Idk. I actually think it's good for bright children to have a class in which they're not at the top.

 

Could you talk to some of the other parents to find out if he is just the kind of teacher who makes you work your heart out for an A or B or if it's a personality issue with your daughter ?

 

My oldest has been with him for over two years now and has never had trouble keeping a high A. She doesn't even practice as much at home as youngest has been. I'm guessing oldest has more natural ability and maybe he's not so good with those that don't. Or maybe he doesn't like younger. I honestly can't figure it out.

[bettyandbob]

I'd drop it, but only after doing what Jean said. Go to the counselor and ask what courses are open. When my dd was in 8th grade there was a problem in art class. It turned out there was only one elective open--teen living (home economics). Teen living would have compromised dd's health because she has celiac and the class was constant baking, flour everywhere. So, she stuck out Art for the year, but it was unpleasant. Though she generally likes art she refused to consider it as a high school elective because she was sure she'd get a teacher like that again. 

[Erica in OR]

You mention that she practices daily. How long does she practice each day? I know when my DD started private lessons, she was practicing daily, but after a few lessons, her instructor talked to her about how much time she was putting in—it wasn't enough for her to be up to his standards. She adjusted her practice schedule and was able to meet those standards. Is it a more difficult instrument she plays? Is he comparing her with the older sibling? Too many variables. You say she hates it—is it only because of the grade label and not because of the actual classes and concerts? Does she enjoy just doing the music?

 

You say "I honestly can't figure it out." I think the next step would be to talk to the teacher and have a conference. Tell him your concerns and thoughts. You can't read his mind and he can't read yours or your daughter's. After that, if it seems differences can't be overcome and it's going to be a terrible experience, a new elective could be in order. 

 

Erica in OR

[Joker]

Well, I received another email and he bumped her to a B. That was not my intent. He also said he considers her behind performance wise and it's going to become more rigorous. I'm stumped how you get behind in beginning band after only 4 months.  :confused1:  This is strictly her playing of the instrument. On the written portion of the mid-term she made an 81. On the playing part he gave her a 70. Dh wanted her to stick it out but not after the last email. So, I sent an email to the counselor explaining our concerns and asking what else is available.

[Joker]

You mention that she practices daily. How long does she practice each day? I know when my DD started private lessons, she was practicing daily, but after a few lessons, her instructor talked to her about how much time she was putting in—it wasn't enough for her to be up to his standards. She adjusted her practice schedule and was able to meet those standards. Is it a more difficult instrument she plays? Is he comparing her with the older sibling? Too many variables. You say she hates it—is it only because of the grade label and not because of the actual classes and concerts? Does she enjoy just doing the music?

 

You say "I honestly can't figure it out." I think the next step would be to talk to the teacher and have a conference. Tell him your concerns and thoughts. You can't read his mind and he can't read yours or your daughter's. After that, if it seems differences can't be overcome and it's going to be a terrible experience, a new elective could be in order. 

 

Erica in OR

 

She practices for at least 30 minutes a day - more on weekends. It's the trombone. On days when she has class (block schedule) that adds another 90 minutes.

 

She hates it because she practices and when she performs the piece for him she feels she did well and then he tells her otherwise. It's getting her down.

[Erica in OR]

She practices for at least 30 minutes a day - more on weekends. It's the trombone. On days when she has class (block schedule) that adds another 90 minutes.

 

She hates it because she practices and when she performs the piece for him she feels she did well and then he tells her otherwise. It's getting her down.

 

Boy, that's disappointing. It seems like plenty of practice. My DD plays trombone as well and that schedule was completely adequate with her private instructor. Does he even have any tips for her on what needs to be better?? Sounds like his "band-side" manner could use some work.

 

Erica in OR

[unsinkable]

She practices for at least 30 minutes a day - more on weekends. It's the trombone. On days when she has class (block schedule) that adds another 90 minutes.

 

She hates it because she practices and when she performs the piece for him she feels she did well and then he tells her otherwise. It's getting her down.

The only other thing I can suggest is private lessons.

[Ali in OR]

This is a situation I would let her quit. I think beginning band should be for beginners and I'm sure ours is not graded on musical performance. I think they're supposed to have all their materials every day, be at all performances, behave and put forth effort, etc. Beginning band also has more kids than intermediate band and advanced band--lots of kids decide it's not for them and drop to try something else instead. Middle school is the time to do that in my opinion. And I know in dd's class kids have dropped throughout the year--they don't necessarily "tough it out" until spring. The semester is a perfect time to make a change.

[Catwoman]

Well, I received another email and he bumped her to a B. That was not my intent. He also said he considers her behind performance wise and it's going to become more rigorous. I'm stumped how you get behind in beginning band after only 4 months.  :confused1:  This is strictly her playing of the instrument. On the written portion of the mid-term she made an 81. On the playing part he gave her a 70. Dh wanted her to stick it out but not after the last email. So, I sent an email to the counselor explaining our concerns and asking what else is available.

I think you are doing the right thing. The teacher seems unreasonable, and there's a limit to how much practice an 11yo should be putting in each day for beginning band, so I am somewhat doubtful that your dd will be able to meet this guy's high standards any time soon. If the meantime, the teacher is going to kill her confidence -- and maybe not just in terms of playing the trombone, but in making her fearful of trying other new things.

[bolt.]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to evaluate students based on their skills and performance in music when it is a course at school for credit.

 

In the case if your DD, you say she is learning. She is learning reasonably well, but is not yet good at performance -- what you said in words, he said in letters. It's exactly the same evaluation of her skill at musical performance.

 

Like any other class, it doesn't matter (for grades) how hard she tries or how much she practices -- if she performs music at a C level (acceptable, but neither good nor excellent) it is what it is. If she "performed" math at a C level, you wouldn't be talking about how hard she is trying, how much she is practicing math at home... It doesn't make sense.

 

In this class, if she continues, she should be able to say, "A 'C' means I am learning reasonably well. That's the truth about my musical skill. I'm not super good at it yet. When I am good at it, I will get the grade that means good (a B). If I get super good, that's what As are for (excellence)." Nobody should percieve an injustice at receiving a 'not good yet' grade -- when they actually aren't good yet.

 

However, if she's not enjoying music the way this class is being taught (too rigorous, high expectations, excessive practice) then there's no reason to continue. I'd certainly not choose that style of musical education. I prefer the recreational approach, because music should be fun, and it's not something I like to see 'graded' at all.

[Χά�ων]

Are you more worried that she is no longer on the honor roll or that she does not seem to be excelling at this subject? If it were math and she was doing her best you with this grade would probably hire a tutor. Since this is an elective I would look into private lessons (not with the band teacher), pulling her out or both. If she wants to learn the instrument private lesson's may be the best options. She may be better suited for a different instrument. 

[Guest submarines]

Ideally, I wouldn't base my decision on how it affects her grades, but would focused on the bigger picture. Does she enjoy music? Does she enjoy her instrument? Is she a child who is normally good at setting goals and practicing towards them? Is she, generally, a quitter? How does she deal with challenges? How does she deal with failure? Is she upset with her results, or with her grade?

 

I wouldn't necessarily want to "teach her a hard life lesson", (depending on her personality I might even want to protect her from the "harsh life"), but the interplay of the above factors would affect my decision.

 

I think basing the decision on her grade is being too caught up in the culture of grades. It is learning that matters, not the grade. For example, if the teacher kept telling her that she was not playing well, but would give her (and everyone one else) an A, saying that he doesn't expect them to play well in beginner band, would the situation be different? Would you, and her be content with supbar performance, even if there's good effort, if the grade was higher?

 

So that's my ideal, and that's one of the reasons I homeschool. Even then, it is often difficult to attain in real life. I'm well aware that when one is in school the game of grades and honor rolls and GPAs is quite overwhelming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joker]

The most upsetting part is not that she's off the honor roll or not excelling. It is that she is trying so hard for so little. Beginning band is supposed to be more than just learning to play the instrument. She is doing well on the other parts and learning, but feels beat down when those scores can't compete with the low performance scores.

 

I don't know that math is a good comparison. She's been given a solid foundation for that. If she struggles we can help her. We cannot help her play her instrument better. She knows how she is supposed to play it, she reads and understands the music, but she cannot play it the way the instructor wants it at this point.

 

Whether or not she can get out of this class, her music education will continue elsewhere. She needs some positive reinforcement and to continue learning it in a different environment.

[Joker]

She's not at all a quitter elsewhere. Dh often refers to her as a tough cookie. She played in the beginning with an allergy to the mouthpiece. We didn't yet know that her issues were with the mouthpiece and she often played in pain without complaint. That's been worked out and is a non-issue now. She's not usually a complainer or a quitter which is why this has become an issue.

[SJ.]

How much interest does your dd have in pursuing the trombone in band?  Does she hope to be in the high school band?  If she is truly interested in music and wants to participate in band in high school I would encourage her to stick with it.  I highly suggest private lessons and finding out if the band instructor would be willing to meet privately with her (after school? study hall?) on a regular basis to touch base with where she is, what she is doing to his expectations, and where she needs to improve.  Then I would communicate his concerns with her private instructor.  

 

IMO not being on the honor roll in middle school is not that big of a deal.  Pursuing music (or anything that you enjoy) when you are not a natural can teach more worthwhile lessons than quitting to do something easier. 

 

On another note, being graded on your ability in middle school band is a little baffling to me.  I participated in band 4th - 12th grade and our grades were not based off of how well we played.

[bolt.]

I'd like to know why she feels "beat down" for being average and adequate at musical performance -- especially as she is just starting out on her instrument.

 

Did she have a reason to expect herself to be better than average/adequate? Does anyone influential in her life seem to expect her to be better than average/adequate? Does she generally expect herself to be better than average/adequate (within a few months) at most things she attempts?

 

Do you know where these emotionally loaded ideas are coming from?

 

Does she feel "beat down" when you (or others) verbally say that her performance skills are currently around average on her instrument? Or does she only feel beat down when the teacher expresses it? Or only when she sees it as a grade?

 

Maybe this is a good learning experience to help her discern whether she can enjoy something, and continue as a learner -- even if she is "only average/adequate at it" -- whether or not the learning itself can be enjoyable. (Or if her enjoyment is often based on a sense of personal achievement, ambition, competition, or excellence.) (Or if she's actually not that interested in musicality and doesn't want up make a priority out of learning an instrument well because she doesn't enjoy it for its own sake.)

[AmandaVT]

I played in band when I began high school and then switched to Orchestra jr. year. For both classes, I was beginning a new instrument (alto sax and double bass). I did have an extensive piano background but was one of the worst in both band and orchestra for the first semester or two. I did make all state for bass my senior year, but was horrible in the beginning! I got straight A's all 4 years of high school in my music courses.

 

My teachers based grades on work, homework, performing in concerts, football games and the yearly parade. For the performance piece, we were graded on individual progress not comparatively to the rest of the group. As a very beginner bass player, it wouldn't have been fair for him to hold me to the same standard of performance to the students that had played for 10+ years. It was fair to compare our homework, and participation etc. And progress.

 

I would let your DD quit before she gets turned off from music if she's not enjoying band. If she likes trombone, you can always get her in private lessons and maybe she can rejoin band down the line.

[Χά�ων]

 

I don't know that math is a good comparison. She's been given a solid foundation for that. If she struggles we can help her. We cannot help her play her instrument better. She knows how she is supposed to play it, she reads and understands the music, but she cannot play it the way the instructor wants it at this point.

I think it is a good comparison. If she lacked the foundation for math you would help her build that foundation, like you already have. She does not have the foundation and you are unable to give it to her (not judging, I am in the same boat with DS and his instrument). The best thing to look at private lessons to build that foundation.

[Joker]

Her first quarter grade was a 99.5, so her now getting a grade in the 70s was a shock and brought her down.

 

I really do appreciate all the advice and much of it has caused me to think of different things. At this moment we're going to wait to hear from the counselor, and if there is a space for her elsewhere we will allow her to take it. She won't be quitting music, but will get that instruction outside of school (at least for now). If she has to stick it out, she will give it her best.

[SJ.]

I'd like to know why she feels "beat down" for being average and adequate at musical performance -- especially as she is just starting out on her instrument.

 

Did she have a reason to expect herself to be better than average/adequate? Does anyone influential in her life seem to expect her to be better than average/adequate? Does she generally expect herself to be better than average/adequate (within a few months) at most things she attempts?

 

Do you know where these emotionally loaded ideas are coming from?

 

Does she feel "beat down" when you (or others) verbally say that her performance skills are currently around average on her instrument? Or does she only feel beat down when the teacher expresses it? Or only when she sees it as a grade?

 

Maybe this is a good learning experience to help her discern whether she can enjoy something, and continue as a learner -- even if she is "only average/adequate at it" -- whether or not the learning itself can be enjoyable. (Or if her enjoyment is often based on a sense of personal achievement, ambition, competition, or excellence.) (Or if she's actually not that interested in musicality and doesn't want up make a priority out of learning an instrument well because she doesn't enjoy it for its own sake.)

 

I think part of the issue is viewing a grade of "C" as negative, poor, or a low grade versus "average and adequate."

[TrixieB]

She practices for at least 30 minutes a day - more on weekends. It's the trombone. On days when she has class (block schedule) that adds another 90 minutes.

 

She hates it because she practices and when she performs the piece for him she feels she did well and then he tells her otherwise. It's getting her down.

 

Can she ask him WHAT specifically he feels she is not doing well when she performs the piece?

 

Is she not counting correctly?

Is she playing wrong notes?

Is her tone not what he thinks it should be?

Are her dynamics incorrect?

Is she playing at the wrong tempo, or changing tempo as she plays?

 

If he can be specific, it will allow her to make any necessary corrections.

 

In my kids' music experience (band class & private lessons) the teacher has always specified what the kids did correctly, and what needs to be improved upon. 

 

If your dd likes trombone, a private teacher could be the perfect thing.

 

[Chris in VA]

I think you are doing the right thing, letting her pursue music in an ungraded, at-your-own-pace environment, instead of a group lesson/band type atmosphere.

 

If she wants to stick with trombone, give her private lessons. She may need the right kind of practice, not more practice, and more one-on-one guidance can help her get that. It's harder, sometimes much harder, to progress when you just do "band" instead of doing "lessons" and band. 

[Ellie]

I wouldn't let her quit because she isn't getting an A in once class.

 

What the teacher is requiring doesn't sound all that bad to me.

[elfgivas]

we live and breath music.  it sounds troubling to me. 

 

does she like the trombone?  if so, and if she is to continue, then finding a good private teacher will make all the difference. 

at this point, i would be concerned with her and with the music, not with the teacher or the grade. 

if she really is feeling beaten down, then bail... music should lift you up.

 

fwiw,

ann

[datgh]

I think you have been given good advice and I would let her out of band for now so as not to ruin her love for music.  I will just add one thing from my experiences when younger.  Is trombone the right instrument for her?  I believe with the trombone (and anyone who plays it can correct me if I am wrong) you need to really know how far the slide needs to move to get the correct note.  I know with my ear for music I would have a hard time finding the sweet spot for the note.  Is this something she has problems with?  For me the flute was a better instrument because each note on the instrument was a certain fingering so I couldn't mess it up to bad. 

 

I hope your dd can keep her love for music.  It doesn't sound like her current band leader is very helpful in this area. Maybe private lessons for now and then maybe she can try band again in a few years with a different director.

[Catwoman]

I'm surprised at how many people are fine with the teacher giving such a low grade to a student who is working hard.

 

This is an elective. It's beginning band, not algebra. As I have always understood it, introductory school music programs are supposed to be to help students develop a love of music, and to help them learn the basics of playing an instrument. I can't see how this teacher's methods will do anything but discourage average kids who might otherwise learn to love to play their instrument, by giving them low grades instead of rewarding their efforts.

 

I equate it with an art teacher giving a beginning student a low grade simply because she doesn't draw or paint as well as some of the other students, even though she is working hard and enjoying the process of creating art projects. It doesn't make sense.

[Barbara H]

I'm wondering if more information might be helpful in making decision. That might come through meeting with the instructor to get really specific feedback and also maybe through a meeting with a private trombone teacher. Even if private lessons aren't a regular option, it might be good to meet with someone just a couple of times one on one to get another perspective. Sometimes with learning a new skill there can be one or two misunderstandings or challenge areas where a learner just needs more one on one support to get through it and then it really clicks. If it turns out once she/you get more information it is still not a good fit then everyone can feel totally confident in the decision to quit without any lingering feelings of failure or guilt.

[LucyStoner]

I think that there shouldn't be anything wrong with getting a C or B in music. The kids that are doing exceptionally well should get the highest grade. Just because it is an elective doesn't mean it should be an easy A.

 

That said, it does sound like maybe this teacher is being a bit unfair to her in particular for some reason and of that is the case, that is really unacceptable.

[OneStepAtATime]

When I was in band in 6th grade our teacher assessed us on being on time, practicing, taking care of our musical instrument, being a team player, working hard, learning the notes, etc. but he also had a personal evaluation he did for each of us.  Since this was beginning band, he felt that the most important thing he could do was encourage a love of music, get us familiar with being in a band, get us comfortable with our instrument and encourage hard work to improve performance.  His assessments were for comparing what we were achieving ourselves.  In other words, when I started I had never picked up a flute.  After 6 weeks, I had significantly improved.  When all the various factors were added up, including that assessment, I got an A, Same with the second 6 weeks.  I was showing improvement, not compared to other students, but compared to myself.  The third 6 weeks I got cocky and didn't practice as much, but he was expecting more since I was now more familiar with everything.  I barely squeaked out a B, so I worked much harder the next 6 weeks.  Expectations increased with each 6 weeks, but if he saw someone struggling or falling off their potential, he would talk with them and give them support and suggestions for ways to improve BEFORE the final assessment of the 6 week period.  I loved my band director and came away with a love of music and the realization that to get good at anything takes hard work.  He was incredibly encouraging.

 

I really think that a face to face conference with the teacher to try and understand his criteria and expectations would help.  And if the teacher really felt that her performance had dropped from a 98 to a 70, why didn't he give her specific areas that he wanted her to work on and suggestions for how to do that?  This is beginning band.  It just seems that at this level the focus should be on getting familiar with your instrument, continued improvement, hard work and encouraging a love of music.  

[Catwoman]

When I was in band in 6th grade our teacher assessed us on being on time, practicing, taking care of our musical instrument, being a team player, working hard, learning the notes, etc. but he also had a personal evaluation he did for each of us. Since this was beginning band, he felt that the most important thing he could do was encourage a love of music, get us familiar with being in a band, get us comfortable with our instrument and encourage hard work to improve performance. His assessments were for comparing what we were achieving ourselves. In other words, when I started I had never picked up a flute. After 6 weeks, I had significantly improved. When all the various factors were added up, including that assessment, I got an A, Same with the second 6 weeks. I was showing improvement, not compared to other students, but compared to myself. The third 6 weeks I got cocky and didn't practice as much, but he was expecting more since I was now more familiar with everything. I barely squeaked out a B, so I worked much harder the next 6 weeks. Expectations increased with each 6 weeks, but if he saw someone struggling or falling off their potential, he would talk with them and give them support and suggestions for ways to improve BEFORE the final assessment of the 6 week period. I loved my band director and came away with a love of music and the realization that to get good at anything takes hard work. He was incredibly encouraging.

 

I really think that a face to face conference with the teacher to try and understand his criteria and expectations would help. And if the teacher really felt that her performance had dropped from a 98 to a 70, why didn't he give her specific areas that he wanted her to work on and suggestions for how to do that? This is beginning band. It just seems that at this level the focus should be on getting familiar with your instrument, continued improvement, hard work and encouraging a love of music.

:iagree:

 

I think your teacher's approach was very fair, and I agree with you on what should be the focus of the course and how the grades should be determined.

[Plateau Mama]

Her first quarter grade was a 99.5, so her now getting a grade in the 70s was a shock and brought her down.

 

I really do appreciate all the advice and much of it has caused me to think of different things. At this moment we're going to wait to hear from the counselor, and if there is a space for her elsewhere we will allow her to take it. She won't be quitting music, but will get that instruction outside of school (at least for now). If she has to stick it out, she will give it her best.

It sounds to me like in the beginning he wasn't grading performance, but now your daughter just hasn't kept pace with the class. If she enjoys playing the trombone and you are going to continue music outside of school maybe get her private lessons. Maybe she need a bit of one on one help to jump start her. If she is practicing that much and not keeping up, maybe she's not musically inclined. Totally OK. If that's the case then I'd absolutely let her drop at the quarter and do something else.

[KungFuPanda]

Can you separate how you feel about the grade from how you feel about the class? If your daughter had an A or a B, would either of you be discouraged? If she's unhappy in class, that's one thing. If she was content until she saw the C, that's a completely different issue and isn't really about the class or music.

[City Mouse]

My DD did get performance grades in middle school band. I can remember her getting grades for performing scales and pieces of music. There were a few grading periods where she got "low" grades (Ds I think)in band on her report card. I did talk to the instructor about taking her out because of the grades. The instructor encouraged me to wait.

 

Several years later my DD got scholarship money for college directly due to her music. One was a small private scholarship from a local music festival and one is from her college, and she is not a music major.

 

I will admit that I do not place much emphasis on grades though. If the child is doing the best that they can then I don't care what grade they get. On the otherhand, if they are slacking off and make a low grade then that is a different story.

[AmandaVT]

I think that there shouldn't be anything wrong with getting a C or B in music. The kids that are doing exceptionally well should get the highest grade. Just because it is an elective doesn't mean it should be an easy A.

 

That said, it does sound like maybe this teacher is being a bit unfair to her in particular for some reason and of that is the case, that is really unacceptable.

 

 

I disagree with this. In most classes, yes, the top of the class should get the highest grades and the kids who are doing average or below average should get graded lower. French 1 - all kids should be beginner (or close to) french students. They're all being taught the same material at the same time. Studying harder and working harder will in most cases help those kids earn A's and progress quicker than the students that aren't working quite as hard or don't have the potential for A's. 

 

Band - kids will be starting at different levels. I'm betting there are kids that have been taking private flute  or clarinet lessons  since they were 5 and the band music is simple for them. They will be earning their A in band with little to no effort while playing more difficult pieces in their private lessons. A beginner who is practicing daily and doing well on homework and quizzes and improving should also be given the opportunity to earn a good grade. It's, IMO, grossly unfair to grade kids with vastly different experience levels on the same scale. It puts the beginners at such a disadvantage that they will feel they can never catch up to the kids who have been playing since they were little (which is pretty true), get discouraged and not want to play. Music is different from other classes. Her DD can't start practicing 2 hrs a day to try to catch up. You can't work hard enough to catch kids who have been playing forever.

 

And while a C is technically considered an average grade, I don't know too many kids (myself included when I was in school) that consider it so. It was always considered a bad grade. 

[FriedClams]

If I let her, I'd let her quit because she hates it - NOT because of the grade and honor roll.

 

I think letting her quit because she has a harsh teacher or a low grade would be the wrong lesson. The classes where I worked the hardest due to harsh grading, or had to deal with a jerk, were the ones I remember the most and learned the best lessons from.

 

I think rescueing middle school ages kids from discomfort, (obviously not abuse or serious issues), doesn't allow the to grow their own fortitude and climb hard mountains. Learning to work for difficult people is a great life lesson and one, based on the situation, I'd leave her in band to learn.

[FriedClams]

The most upsetting part is not that she's off the honor roll or not excelling. It is that she is trying so hard for so little. Beginning band is supposed to be more than just learning to play the instrument. She is doing well on the other parts and learning, but feels beat down when those scores can't compete with the low performance scores.

 

I don't know that math is a good comparison. She's been given a solid foundation for that. If she struggles we can help her. We cannot help her play her instrument better. She knows how she is supposed to play it, she reads and understands the music, but she cannot play it the way the instructor wants it at this point.

 

Whether or not she can get out of this class, her music education will continue elsewhere. She needs some positive reinforcement and to continue learning it in a different environment.

I disagree that working really hard and failing to see results is upsetting. In the long run she may be a terrible musician - with a deep sense of appreciation for music and the gifts musicians have. She may take up an instrument as an adult and excel. Perhaps I have too much Vince Lombardi in me - but I think the hard lessons are the worthwhile ones.

[elegantlion]

I played trombone in junior high.  

 

Anyway, trombone can be tricky because you're not playing melody most of the time. Practice can be hard because especially in beginning music it's sometimes hard to find the right tempo without the melody to practice with. I loved playing trombone, I was the only girl, it  was a blast. There were days I wanted to play a melody instrument though, I felt like "background" a lot of the time. 

 

If you want to stick it out, I'd talk with the instructor about what she's actually doing wrong. Wrong slide position, wrong note, not following the music correctly. I would pinpoint it down. If she'd not enjoying it, I'd let her quit. She may be better suited for a different instrument, one that she could do independently or perhaps take lessons and join the band again next year on that different instrument.  

 

 

[In The Great White North]

 

 

Her first quarter grade was a 99.5, so her now getting a grade in the 70s was a shock and brought her down

 And if the teacher really felt that her performance had dropped from a 98 to a 70, why didn't he give her specific areas that he wanted her to work on and suggestions for how to do that?

 

 

Can she ask him WHAT specifically he feels she is not doing well when she performs the piece?

 

Is she not counting correctly?

Is she playing wrong notes?

Is her tone not what he thinks it should be?

Are her dynamics incorrect?

Is she playing at the wrong tempo, or changing tempo as she plays?

 

 

 

It sounds to me like a communication problem.  If I had a 99, and got a 70 the next term, with no warning, I would be upset too.  70 might be a "C", but it is 1 point away from failing, and in no way is it considered "average".  If he hasn't told her specifics of what he wants that she isn't doing, a conference is in order.

 

It is possible that her practice time is not effective, that she is just playing through each song, instead of working on the song phrase by phrase til she gets it right, then putting it all together.  Of course, she has to know exactly where the problem is in order to practice like that.  If she can't hear the problem, or doesn't know how to fix it, it will never get better. A private teacher can help with this.

 

I don't like the idea of quitting, but we ran into a similar problem with a private teacher for whom nothing was ever good enough.  After a year, dd's love of the instrument (and any music besides pop) is gone. I wish we had left while she still liked it.  And there were no grades involved.

[Catwoman]

I just wanted to mention that I don't think Horton should have to go to the effort and expense of hiring a private teacher in this case. This is a 6th grade public school elective course. It is her teacher's job to provide her with the education she needs to do well in his class.

 

I would strongly suggest private lessons if she had auditioned for a selected advanced-level band and hadn't been accepted, but this is the beginner's class and if the teacher isn't up to the task of teaching a hardworking kid who wants to learn, I'm not sure he should be teaching the beginner's class. I think he may mean well, but his standards are too high for a kid who never picked up an instrument until a few months ago -- and the trombone is not an easy instrument to learn to play.

 

I'm sorry, but I still don't think he should give a C to a kid who is trying hard. Maybe some of you view a C as adequate, but I don't know anyone who doesn't think a C is a bad grade, and I can understand why it would be very discouraging to Horton's dd to have received one.

[skimomma]

I just wanted to mention that I don't think Horton should have to go to the effort and expense of hiring a private teacher in this case. This is a 6th grade public school elective course. It is her teacher's job to provide her with the education she needs to do well in his class.

 

 

 

My own band program growing up required that all students have private lessons.  It was an elective but you could only participate if you have lessons as well.  This was required 5th-8th grades.  After that, lessons were no longer required but strongly encouraged.  Lessons and/or instruments were provided for any student whose family could demonstrate financial need.

 

While, I realize that this is not the case for the OP, I do think that any parent with a kid in band should strongly consider it as part of the package.  Otherwise, you have one band teacher trying to teach 15 different instruments.  Trombone, specifically, is a very difficult beginner instrument.  If the band teacher happens to be a woodwind player with only 3 weeks of trombone in that college-instrument-petting-zoo they call "intro to brass," students can flounder.  

 

So, while I agree that the OP "should not" have to go to the effort, she might want to if a successful band experience is the goal.

[Guest submarines]

I just wanted to mention that I don't think Horton should have to go to the effort and expense of hiring a private teacher in this case. This is a 6th grade public school elective course. It is her teacher's job to provide her with the education she needs to do well in his class.

 

I would strongly suggest private lessons if she had auditioned for a selected advanced-level band and hadn't been accepted, but this is the beginner's class and if the teacher isn't up to the task of teaching a hardworking kid who wants to learn, I'm not sure he should be teaching the beginner's class. I think he may mean well, but his standards are too high for a kid who never picked up an instrument until a few months ago -- and the trombone is not an easy instrument to learn to play.

 

I'm sorry, but I still don't think he should give a C to a kid who is trying hard. Maybe some of you view a C as adequate, but I don't know anyone who doesn't think a C is a bad grade, and I can understand why it would be very discouraging to Horton's dd to have received one.

 

Schools have always been giving grades for results, not effort, that's the entire point of grades.

 

I somehow don't think that anyone here would be okay if students were given grades for effort in math or spelling. 

 

Getting grades for effort in electives is demeaning to the subject matter and those who teach these classes. To some, music is as important as math. When students start a foreign language in grade 8, they are still graded for results, even if they are all beginners. Some of them find it easier, if they have a private tutor or lived abroad for several years, and they will find it easy and get an easy A. The rest will have to work hard. The OP didn't mention that her DD was graded down in comparison with more experienced players.

 

I personally don't agree with grades, even in homeschooling, but if one starts that journey and starts grading, it isn't fair to make exceptions for electives.

 

The OP's DD is not failing the entire class--she is not doing well in just one aspect of the class.

[Guest submarines]

My own band program growing up required that all students have private lessons.  It was an elective but you could only participate if you have lessons as well.  This was required 5th-8th grades.  After that, lessons were no longer required but strongly encouraged.  Lessons and/or instruments were provided for any student whose family could demonstrate financial need.

 

While, I realize that this is not the case for the OP, I do think that any parent with a kid in band should strongly consider it as part of the package.  Otherwise, you have one band teacher trying to teach 15 different instruments.  Trombone, specifically, is a very difficult beginner instrument.  If the band teacher happens to be a woodwind player with only 3 weeks of trombone in that college-instrument-petting-zoo they call "intro to brass," students can flounder.  

 

So, while I agree that the OP "should not" have to go to the effort, she might want to if a successful band experience is the goal.

I'm not naturally musical, and I can't imagine how anyone could learn to play an instrument in band without private instruction. Maybe someone who is naturally gifted and plays another instrument can pick up another instrument and be decent about it. But an average person? I don't think so. I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the students in band do have private lessons.

 

[MinivanMom]

Is she a smaller girl? I hate to ask this in this day and age, but is it possible that the teacher has a problem with her playing the trombone? I know some band teachers can be very particular about which students they think should be playing which instruments based on physical characteristics.

[LucyStoner]

I disagree with this. In most classes, yes, the top of the class should get the highest grades and the kids who are doing average or below average should get graded lower. French 1 - all kids should be beginner (or close to) french students. They're all being taught the same material at the same time. Studying harder and working harder will in most cases help those kids earn A's and progress quicker than the students that aren't working quite as hard or don't have the potential for A's.

 

Band - kids will be starting at different levels. I'm betting there are kids that have been taking private flute or clarinet lessons since they were 5 and the band music is simple for them. They will be earning their A in band with little to no effort while playing more difficult pieces in their private lessons. A beginner who is practicing daily and doing well on homework and quizzes and improving should also be given the opportunity to earn a good grade. It's, IMO, grossly unfair to grade kids with vastly different experience levels on the same scale. It puts the beginners at such a disadvantage that they will feel they can never catch up to the kids who have been playing since they were little (which is pretty true), get discouraged and not want to play. Music is different from other classes. Her DD can't start practicing 2 hrs a day to try to catch up. You can't work hard enough to catch kids who have been playing forever.

 

And while a C is technically considered an average grade, I don't know too many kids (myself included when I was in school) that consider it so. It was always considered a bad grade.

The kids who have had years and years of practice shouldn't be in beginners, should they? Personally, I would consider a B a good grade for a less than top performance. That is what the girl is getting after her parents contacted the teacher. She got an 80 on the written work, which here is a B and a 70 or C on the performance.

 

If people consider C a low grade then they need to adjust their expectations and perceptions. I think that grade inflation has really devalued the actual A level work.

[bolt.]

I've always been taught...

 

A = Excellent, exceptional, nearly flawless

 

B = Good work, well done, better than average, slightly exceeds the standard expectations

 

C = Average, adequate work, attains the standard but does not exceed it, acceptable, learning appropriatly

 

D = minimal, struggling, intermittently showing acceptable work, but also doing poorly in at least some aspects

 

But my schooling before college was always given out in percentages, and you had to calculate your own letter grade if you wanted to know. Perhaps that would be to avoid the emotionality attached to letters? I was usually a 78 to 88 percent student. That was considered good academic achievement for a smart kid -- but nobody expects a 97% or something unless they actually were that nearly-flawless. I've never met a "straight A student" (a 90% average) who wasn't clearly both highly intelligent and very very driven.

 

Perhaps it is a case of the letters meaning different things in different places. But, real question: if only the "poor" students get C+ and below, how are all the average/good/excellent/amazing students sorted out within only the A/B range? Do "good" students get A's? If so, what do the excellent/amazing students get?