Rant: To the woman sipping coffee outside Starbucks at 8:30pm . . .

[swellmomma]

I'd like to be thin, smart and have more kids.

I'd like to be thin, smart and have neurotypical kids, a good husband and a ton of money.  If there is an internet stalker equivalent to a genie I'll take it.  Stalk me anytime if you can make those things happen, especially the last 3.  If I had those I could hire a personal trainer and chef to make me thin, and get enough sleep that that brain I have may start wirking fully again making me smarter.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Reading through the laws...

 

 

I really dislike laws that only make something illegal if something goes wrong...

 

You can leave your kid in the car, unless there is a fatality...then it's against the law.  I know it's not quite that simple, but wow.

 

 

[Nestof3]

I agree with you. I'd love to see stats on child abductions when left in vehicle vs from a house vs. while on the way home from school. (Involving strangers -- not custody battles). Then, I'd like to know how many people have their kids sleep in the same room with them in case of home break-in.

 

See, this is why I'm so upset about this whole trend. Are we now saying that second-graders are in constant danger?

 

Kidnappers are NOT around every corner, constantly looking for a child to steal.

 

Even if a potential kidnapper saw my kids alone in the car, he'd have to bust into my car in a public place, risking that I'd be back any second. If someone was that hell-bent on taking my kids, why would it not be MORE dangerous for me to walk them to and from the FedEx store? Much easier to grab and throw in the car and take off with.

 

For that matter, should it be illegal for school-aged kids to walk down the street? Play outside? Go buy themselves an ice cream cone?

 

My kids have been in thousands of situations where, if someone were so disposed, they could have been picked up and carried off. I can't and won't live my life in that mindset. That kind of occurrance is so extremely rare, and kids get hurt and die every day from things we don't obsess about. For example, it's very common for kids to be hit by cars in school drop-off / pickup lines, which exist largely because people are afraid to let their kids walk to school or wait at a bus stop. Irrational fears are causing real problems in our society. Moms like me are NOT the bad guy.

[Nestof3]

Same way with business tax papers. They say only keep them for _ years unless you reported incorrectly, then keep forever.

 

But, I would have to have my papers to prove I reported properly, right??

 

Reading through the laws...

 

 

I really dislike laws that only make something illegal if something goes wrong...

 

You can leave your kid in the car, unless there is a fatality...then it's against the law. I know it's not quite that simple, but wow.

[Danestress]

OK but it was NOT 100 degrees here last night. It was pleasant and it was sunset. If it WAS anywhere near 100 degrees in my car, I would not have left my kids in it. One would think that I'd get the benefit of the doubt on that.

 

Apparently, on this board you don't get the benefit of the doubt on ANYTHING.

 

For the record, we have a Caribou next to a UPS shop nearby. I could easily go in and mail a package in three minutes. There is never a line except at Christmas. I don't think it would be remotely dangerous for a second grader to wait in the car while I did so. I have no Idea how fast it would take a cop to get there, but I am flabbergasted that people just seem to want to catch you in a lie.

[Parrothead]

It appears that SKL would only break the law in CT and MD.  Most states with a law against leaving a child in a car state six years and under.

[Guest submarines]

:iagree:

 

I also gave the caller the benefit of the doubt and assumed she hadn't known how long the kids had been in the car.

 

Now it seems we're going off on the usual "helicopter parent vs free range parent" debate (although the terms haven't been mentioned... yet....) when this isn't what was at issue here. A woman saw two unattended young children alone in a car at night, so she called the police to check and make sure they were OK. Sure, we know that SKL is a good mom and was only gone for a few minutes, but the caller may not have known that.

 

As I have said in previous posts, if the woman saw SKL get out of the car and hurry into FedEx with a package, yet she still rushed to call the police, I would think that was an idiotic and rotten thing to do, but it's hard to imagine anyone doing that. I mean, maybe the woman is a lunatic who lies in wait, hoping to call the police on unsuspecting people in the FedEx parking lot, but I would assume that the vast majority of people wouldn't have made the call under those circumstances.

The caller called within seconds of encountering the situation. That would be an appropriate action if there was a fire.

 

I can't assign any good intentions to the caller. She didn't call to make the situation better or help. She called because of a knee-jerk reaction and utter lack of any capacity to think.

 

My only consolation is that she was indeed a developmentally or cognitively challenged individual who was taught the safety rules, but who is not able to apply them appropriately. Which, on further thought, is quite likely a possibility. And if true, she did well.

[suzybluecheese]

Oh yeah lets see...what would I be...

 

Thinner, taller, athletic, a math genius, and uhhh Mary Poppins.

And play the violin like Guiseppi Tartini?

[mamajag]

People enjoy drama on the internet. That's all there is to it. Most of these people would not say this stuff to people's faces. They are internet weenies.

I would and I do. In my group of friends I am the one people ask for advice when they want the truth and just don't ask if they don't.

[Parrothead]

I agree with you. I'd love to see stats on child abductions when left in vehicle vs from a house vs. while on the way home from school. (Involving strangers -- not custody battles). Then, I'd like to know how many people have their kids sleep in the same room with them in case of home break-in.

 

 

Page 9 of this PDF gives those stats.

 

[Nestof3]

I just googled attempted child abductions in my city. Top results included a woman driving down the street, stopped in the middle of the road when kids were playing and started grabbing 8 year old to stuff into car. Child fought back.

 

Man walked across the street and started dragging child in front lawn across street to house.

 

Man walked up to woman holding child in line at Dairy Queen. Snatched child from her arms and ran.

 

I haven't found a vehicle incident yet where child was sitting in locked car.

[Mommy22alyns]

I'm going to throw in in support of SKL.  Honestly, I would have done the same thing she did and I'd have been pretty peeved if someone called the cops on me.  There.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

It seems a lot of things work that way.  Here I don't believe there is a law regarding a minimum age to leave kids home alone.  But you can be sure if a kid is left home alone at pretty much any age and something goes wrong the parent is dragged through the mud.  It's very stupid.  There was a case of an 8 year old being left overnight.  Someone who was angry with the mother over something burned the house down (and killed the daughter).  Not saying I'd do it, but the mother worked at night and I can imagine the possible difficulties with childcare.  And under most circumstances probably nothing would happen.  The same outcome could have happened even if the mother was home.

 

 

Yeah there is a law or two here like that about leaving kids home alone.  Sure you can leave them home, but if something goes horribly wrong you will then have broken laws and can go to jail.

[Nestof3]

Page 9 of this PDF gives those stats.

 

They put street and car in the same category. Big difference.

[ThisIsTheDay]

In most states it is against the law to leave children under a certain age unattended in a vehicle, that is the relevant point.  So don't do it. 

 

Why would you state this as a fact when it is not?  SKL's children are 7. In reality, this is NOT illegal in most states.

 

http://www.kidsandcars.org/state-laws.html

 

FACT:  Less than 40% of states have laws regarding unattended children in vehicles.

 

Click through the states to read the laws for yourself.  Most of the ones I clicked pertained to children aged six or younger.

 

Again, what makes you state this when it's flat out not true?

[ThisIsTheDay]

You know what I want to know? What backwater red tape library doesn't allow you to either renew library books online, or call and renew them.

 

Mmm. Mine.  You can call to renew or renew online *only* if they are not already late.  If they are overdue, and you call, written policy says staff cannot renew.  But sometimes you'll find a nice clerk who will anyway.

[Scarlett]

Are you a mandatory reporter in your state? Was she making threats or exhibiting behavior that made you concerned for her safety or the safety of other people? Or was she just sitting outside a coffee shop drinking a coffee? Sitting outside a Starbucks is considered a socially normal behavior in our society. Had you called you would have run the risk of being charged with making a false report, because that is what it would be.

 

You left two young children in an unsupervised automobile. Your behavior is out of the normal for our society. Children have died because their parents did the exact same thing that you did. Not just one random child in a random fluke situation. Many children. Every single year.

Good grief. It is not abnormal to leave a second grader in a car to run in to a store for a few min.

 

And many children do not die in that situation. That is a gross exaggeration .

[Guest]

Mmmmm hmmmm

You are proving my point. I don't even know who you are and you are being sarcastic and rude to me!  I've never done a thing to you.  ???

[elegantlion]

If we're changing stories, I want to be a rock star, but I ain't got what it takes. 

[SKL]

Apparently, on this board you don't get the benefit of the doubt on ANYTHING.

 

For the record, we have a Caribou next to a UPS shop nearby. I could easily go in and mail a package in three minutes. There is never a line except at Christmas. I don't think it would be remotely dangerous for a second grader to wait in the car while I did so. I have no Idea how fast it would take a cop to get there, but I am flabbergasted that people just seem to want to catch you in a lie.

 

But to tell the truth, I wouldn't want to believe this could happen to me, if it didn't already happen.  I would be skeptical if someone told me the cops were there after only a 3-minute stop in a storefront.  Up until yesterday, that is.  So I honestly don't blame people for being a little hesitant, and I appreciate those who have chimed in to say that yes, it could happen.

 

[Parrothead]

They put street and car in the same category. Big difference.

 

Nevermind.  I read it sideways and squinty. 

 

[Χά�ων]

I doubt it. But of course you would say you would online.

I formally invite you out for coffee. We can meet at a homeschool convention if you want.

[SKL]

Page 9 of this PDF gives those stats.

 

 

Too bad they combined "street, car, or other vehicle."  I assume that would include all the kids who were walking down the street, waiting at a bus stop, on public transportation, etc., as well as any who may have been snatched from a car (locked or unlocked, running or not).

 

[Parrothead]

If we're changing stories, I want to be a rock star, but I ain't got what it takes. 

Oh, yes.  May I add the ability to sing to my list of alternate personality traits. 

 

[Excelsior! Academy]

Are you a mandatory reporter in your state? Was she making threats or exhibiting behavior that made you concerned for her safety or the safety of other people? Or was she just sitting outside a coffee shop drinking a coffee? Sitting outside a Starbucks is considered a socially normal behavior in our society. Had you called you would have run the risk of being charged with making a false report, because that is what it would be.

 

You left two young children in an unsupervised automobile. Your behavior is out of the normal for our society. Children have died because their parents did the exact same thing that you did. Not just one random child in a random fluke situation. Many children. Every single year.

Behavior out of the normal for our society? Not so much. People leave capable, well behaved children, LEGALLY, in the car for 5 or less minutes all of the time. I have even left elementary aged and older children in the car on a cool day to drop off dry cleaning. It is totally normal, healthy, and fine. Just because you don't agree with the law doesn't mean you should call the op's behavior unacceptable or not normal per society, especially when it is, actually, normal for our society.

[twoxcell]

 

There are regular, active, accepted posters on this forum who have made up entire personalities, opinions, and back stories and yet we freak out that SKL might be exaggerating her experience?

I'm far to boring to make up any interesting story about myself. :tongue_smilie: I don't think SKL is really exaggerating the story all that much or she would have made the encounter with the police officer far more exciting and more like a Cops episode. :lol: Or added in a drag out fight between her and the supposed caller. I believe that a a few minute response time is possible because I have had a police officer on my porch minutes after my 2 year old apparently called 911. How she was able to do that I will never know. ;)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Here is the thing. We are ratting out our neighbors ostensibly for the good of children, right? In the 50s it was all about ratting people out for being communists. For the good of the republic. In totalitarian governments people rat each other out for the good if the regime. Kids rat each other out to make themselves feel like they are better than the rule breaker. It's human nature. The informant feels a giddy sense of power when she alerts the authorities and watches it play out. People are hurt by false calls. Sometimes lives are ruined. Each of us is in considerably more danger of falling down a legal rabbit hole as a result of false alarm than we are of having our children snatched off the streets.

 

After this post I think we need a McCarthy's Law similar to Godwin's Law. Sheesh.

[Luanne]

According to what I can find and after asking a police officer friend of mine, it is not illegal in my state. In fact, only fourteen states actually have any sort of laws about this. My friend said that they do get calls about it and will counsel a parent on safety, but if it is a short period of time(less than half an hour), reasonable temperatures and the child is older than five or six, they don't do anything and aren't concerned about it. If it is a bar or another similar establishment though they do take action regardless. This is my county sheriff dept though and not representative of my state as a whole.

 

I asked him because I do leave my three and one year old alone in the car while I run back in the house to grab something or into the gas station to pay. He said that wouldn't be anything LE would be concerned about. Again, this is my county and not representative of my state.

 

19 states have laws about this... It isn't illegal in my state, but if I were to walk by a vehicle in a parking lot and there was a small child in there alone, I would still call the police.  Sorry, but it is true.

[Scarlett]

You've left your library books in the car? Seriously, someone should revoke your library card! :001_smile:

 

Honestly, I could see myself doing the same thing as you say you did, and I would be freaked out if someone called the police.

Lol....left your library books in the car. LOL

[Guest]

I formally invite you out for coffee. We can meet at a homeschool convention if you want.

So you can say rude things to me?  LOL.  Let's.   :lol:

[Χά�ων]

So you can say rude things to me?  LOL.  Let's.   :lol:

 

Hey, if it will prove to you that I am not just hiding behind the internet ;)

[Guest]

Hey, if it will prove to you that I am not just hiding behind the internet ;)

 

Technically, it wouldn't prove anything because of course now you have to be rude.  It's like a challenge.  :P

[peachskittles]

I don't care how long the kids were in the car. I don't car if the lady was being a busybody or ridiculous calling the cops so fast. I don't care if it was day or night, hot or cold. I don't car if the kids were in the car 3 minutes or 3 hours.  All of that is irrelevant.   In most states it is against the law to leave children under a certain age unattended in a vehicle, that is the relevant point.  So don't do it. 

 

I had to Google this.  This is the first link, I believe.

 

http://www.kidsandcars.org/state-laws.html

 

Currently only 19 states in the US have laws that specifically make it illegal to leave a child unattended in a vehicle.

 

That isn't a huge number of states with laws.

[Χά�ων]

Technically, it wouldn't prove anything because of course now you have to be rude.  It's like a challenge.   :p

 

Be fun though. :)

[LucyStoner]

It appears that SKL would only break the law in CT and MD.  Most states with a law against leaving a child in a car state six years and under.

 

Yeah.  In my state (which is 1 of the 19 with a law) the law is that it is illegal to leave kids under 16 in a running vehicle.  It is ok to park the car with kids in it unless you are outside of a tavern.  Yet many people incorrectly assume that this means that it is illegal to leave kids under 16 in a parked car.  It is not.  

 

I never left my little kids alone in the car.  It was outside of my comfort range. It is still out of my comfort range to leave kids in the car for more than a very short time.   That said though, I am not dragging my 10 year old away from a book in a safe temp car while I buy milk and eggs.  I am just not going to do it.  At age 10 I was catching the cross town bus.  Seriously, I refuse to live with a level of fear that necessitates my kids being chained to my hip all their waking hours.  

[8circles]

wirking

WIRKING!  Get some sleep chica!  :p

[myfunnybunch]

You're missing my point.  My point is that she did not have any reason to believe my kids were in danger. 

 

 

I really don't think I am missing the point.

 

She believed that it was dangerous for you to leave your children in the car alone. Clearly, you don't. (Neither do I, but that's neither here nor there.) But to this person, leaving young children alone in a car is dangerous. She called the police.

 

My point is that you keep trying to justify your opinion that she was overzealous and clearly in the wrong for calling. What you were carrying, the hours of the store, the ages of your children, that you can trust them, and more have all been brought up to defend your point that she was a meddling busybody and not simply a concerned citizen. (Oh wait. Resident. Concerned resident. :P ) You're bringing all of these things into the conversation to justify why your children were not in danger.

 

But she did not have access to any of this information. She believed that it was dangerous.

 

FWIW, I think calling the police was overkill. I leave my kids in the car sometimes. I don't think you were wrong to do so. And I think she could have handled it differently, but that doesn't place her completely in the wrong, nor does it mean she had unfriendly intentions. You cannot guess at her intentions any better than she could have guessed yours.

 

Cat

[unfrumpable.]

You are proving my point. I don't even know who you are and you are being sarcastic and rude to me!  I've never done a thing to you.  ???

 

You're proving my point and it is rather amusing.

 

I am not being rude or sarcastic. I very simply stated that I felt you were being hypocritical, hence the pot kettle black post. I based my decision on other posts of yours that I have read.

 

You've done nothing to me, I've done nothing to you.

 

And yes, if you talked to me IRL the way you post on here, I would say the same thing to your face. I've always had this issue of being blunt and honest. Some people seem to take it as being rude, though that is not my intention. *shrugs*

 

[8circles]

I really don't think I am missing the point.

 

She believed that it was dangerous for you to leave your children in the car alone. Clearly, you don't. (Neither do I, but that's neither here nor there.) But to this person, leaving young children alone in a car is dangerous. She called the police.

 

My point is that you keep trying to justify your opinion that she was overzealous and clearly in the wrong for calling. What you were carrying, the hours of the store, the ages of your children, that you can trust them, and more have all been brought up to defend your point that she was a meddling busybody and not simply a concerned citizen. (Oh wait. Resident. Concerned resident. :p ) You're bringing all of these things into the conversation to justify why your children were not in danger.

 

But she did not have access to any of this information. She believed that it was dangerous.

 

FWIW, I think calling the police was overkill. I leave my kids in the car sometimes. I don't think you were wrong to do so. And I think she could have handled it differently, but that doesn't place her completely in the wrong, nor does it mean she had unfriendly intentions. You cannot guess at her intentions any better than she could have guessed yours.

 

Cat

 

This exactly.

[unfrumpable.]

My husband has told me before that his dad would leave him out in the car while he went into the casinos. WTF

 

When I used to work at a gas station, I used to have people who would come it and try to cut in line because they left their kid in the car. I became more sympathetic towards those people after I had a kid, but I still don't think that buys you a right to cut in line or rush other customers.

 

That said, I have left Ethan in the car for very short period of times before. I am not comfortable doing it and it is something I only do rarely, but I have done it.

 

I think I was 9ish the first time my mom left me at home alone with my little brother. And that was only because she was driving to different bars to find my dad.

[unsinkable]

I really don't think I am missing the point.

 

She believed that it was dangerous for you to leave your children in the car alone. Clearly, you don't. (Neither do I, but that's neither here nor there.) But to this person, leaving young children alone in a car is dangerous. She called the police.

 

My point is that you keep trying to justify your opinion that she was overzealous and clearly in the wrong for calling. What you were carrying, the hours of the store, the ages of your children, that you can trust them, and more have all been brought up to defend your point that she was a meddling busybody and not simply a concerned citizen. (Oh wait. Resident. Concerned resident. :P ) You're bringing all of these things into the conversation to justify why your children were not in danger.

 

But she did not have access to any of this information. She believed that it was dangerous.

 

FWIW, I think calling the police was overkill. I leave my kids in the car sometimes. I don't think you were wrong to do so. And I think she could have handled it differently, but that doesn't place her completely in the wrong, nor does it mean she had unfriendly intentions. You cannot guess at her intentions any better than she could have guessed yours.

 

Cat

So it's fine to call the police if you perceive someone is doing something dangerous?

 

More kids get injured and killed falling down stairs every year than get injured and killed being left in cars. So if I see a child whose hand isn't being held going up or down a public stairway, should I call the police? I think it's dangerous NOT to hold a child's hand.

[HRAAB]

Probably all of us - well, most of us - have done something when viewed in retrospect didn't show our best judgment.  Maybe it's not even really poor judgment; just looking back on it you realize it wasn't the best decision.  I've done the same thing the OP did.  They were relatively safe.  The car was locked, I had the keys, I was gone for just a few minutes, and I could see the car.  There was a far greater chance of them being abducted out of my front yard than out of a locked car.  Looking back I can see it probably wasn't the wisest decision I ever made, but it wasn't the worst one, either.  I also can see that someone might only see two girls in the car, get worried, and call the police.  Because I've done it, I would probably wait a few minutes to see if the parent returned rather than immediately calling.  After a certain amount of time, a decision needs to be made, and that decision needs to be the safety of the children first.  I'm sorry the lady called so quickly.  A few minutes later, the OP could have been back to the car.  

 

So, I'm guilty, too.  Just glad I never had to face the police.  That would have been humiliating.

[myfunnybunch]

So it's fine to call the police if you perceive someone is doing something dangerous?

 

 

Only if the parent allows them to climb the stairs alone for longer than three minutes.

 

Children are injured every day during many different activities. That's not really relevant. It is not illegal in any state that I know of for children to climb stairs without using a handrail or holding hands. What is relevant is that in most states, it is illegal to leave young children alone. I am aware that it varies by age, length of time, etc. but most people don't know their own state statutes. What they do know is what they hear on the news about stranger danger and child abduction, and child accidents.

 

I think I've stated very clearly that I don't think the watcher made the best choice. I am not saying she made the most reasonable choice. However, despite SKL's assertions of the obviousness of her errand, we have no way of knowing what coffee lady saw or was thinking. My point is that we don't know that the call was made maliciously, and that the woman likely genuinely believed that the children might be in danger whether we agree with her or not.

 

The outrage is an overreaction. No real harm was done. Although, thinking about it, I might have reacted the same way. I have the luxury of relative objectivity since I wasn't the one sitting there trying to justify a reasonable (imo) action to a police officer.

 

Cat

[swellmomma]

WIRKING!  Get some sleep chica!  :p

Oh good lord.....stalker....stalker where are you? I could use the magical powers of you now to make my brain wOrk again. 

[Guest]

You're proving my point and it is rather amusing.

 

I am not being rude or sarcastic. I very simply stated that I felt you were being hypocritical, hence the pot kettle black post. I based my decision on other posts of yours that I have read.

 

You've done nothing to me, I've done nothing to you.

 

And yes, if you talked to me IRL the way you post on here, I would say the same thing to your face. I've always had this issue of being blunt and honest. Some people seem to take it as being rude, though that is not my intention. *shrugs*

 

 

If you think me stating my opinions is being a hypocrite, then that is silly!  

 

There is no need for us to continue this.  We aren't going to come to an agreement.  Let's part ways.  

[SKL]

I don't think you get to call the police just because you saw a parent make a choice you would not have made.  Nor does the fact that you let your prejudice lead you to extreme, wrong assumptions justify such a call.  Nor does the fact that you don't know the law (or don't like the law) give you the right to decide what the law should be.

 

What she did is like calling the police to report children playing in their yard for 1 minute, based on an assumption that parents allowing 1 minute of unsupervised outdoor play are also likely to leave their kids out all night long without food.

 

I guess I'm not as charitable as some of you folks.  I don't think it's good enough to be "well-intentioned" if you took a precipitous action that got someone in trouble.  (I realize some of you don't think being in the cops' records for a complaint of child neglect is concerning, but it's concerning to me.)  If an adult is truly well-intentioned, she will consider the impact of her decision and whether there is another course of action that might be more reasonable / kind.  I hope someone tells this lady off sooner rather than later for these shenanigans.

[Parrothead]

So it's fine to call the police if you perceive someone is doing something dangerous?

 

 

 

Lordy, I hope not! 

 

[Catwoman]

(I realize some of you don't think being in the cops' records for a complaint of child neglect is concerning, but it's concerning to me.).

But was there really a formal complaint filed, charging you with child neglect?

 

I was under the impression that a woman called the police to check out two kids being alone in a car in a parking lot at night, but once the officer arrived, he immediately realized that no crime had been committed and he politely sent you and your kids on your way.

 

I would think the call would have been logged into their system, but that the policeman wouldn't have even filed any kind of report about it. You hadn't broken any laws, and obviously the policeman believed that you hadn't done anything wrong, so I honestly don't think you have any reason to be concerned.

[Parrothead]

But was there really a formal complaint filed, charging you with child neglect?

 

I was under the impression that a woman called the police to check out two kids being alone in a car in a parking lot at night, but once the officer arrived, he immediately realized that no crime had been committed and he politely sent you and your kids on your way.

 

I would think the call would have been logged into their system, but that the policeman wouldn't have even filed any kind of report about it. You hadn't broken any laws, and obviously the policeman believed that you hadn't done anything wrong, so I honestly don't think you have any reason to be concerned.

One does not have to have charges filed to have a formal complaint and be entered into, at a minimum, the in house system. Some department send logs to various social services and other departments, as well as the newspaper, as a matter of routine.

 

Yes, there would have been a report. Even if the complaint is unfounded. There is a box to check for that.

 

The person who called it in, or anyone off the street who heard the call go out on a scanner, can go to the department and ask for a copy of the report. They are public record.

[mamajag]

Nm.