Rant: To the woman sipping coffee outside Starbucks at 8:30pm . . .

[Χά�ων]

Do you have statistical information for the number of abductions vs. the number of children safely in the car every year? The bolded is pretty general. Children die in beds while sleeping. In fact right down the street it happened, house fire. Didn't burn the house - 3 people died from smoke inhalation. Perhaps we should quit letting our kids sleep in beds. Come one SKL is not 12, she make a judgment call based upon knowing her children and the situation. She vented. People do that here often about much more serious things without getting jumped on. 

 

Her behavior is not out of norm for some in our society, in fact the law is on her side. It is out of the comfort level for some, apparently. 

Children die in cars almost daily and they die fast because of the heat. 8:30 is still hot. Cars are stolen every day, her children were in the car. There is so much that is wrong with leaving young children unattended in a car. I would have called. I have called.

[Scrub Jay]

I admit to being curious how the OP knew who called. She cleared that up. (Thanks!) The more I think about it, the more I think I'd be upset too, to have the police called on me for something like that.

 

I think that's where some posters differ on here. I did not see this instance as someone calling the cops on the OP but calling the cops to do a welfare check on some kids alone in a car at night.

[MedicMom]

By the way, those abduction statistics? Break it down...what percentage is stranger abduction vs parent/family abduction?

[elegantlion]

If I was in that parking lot looking for an easy to grab female I would go for your girls. They are smaller and easier to grab and go.

 

The Starbucks lady is of the age of majority and is assumed by our society to be able to make an informed choice regarding her safety in her current surroundings. She also has had the time in life to learn self defense and learn ways to protect herself. In our country those over the age of majority are assumed to be able to care for themselves.

 

Your daughters are not of that age the burden is on you for their protection. You did something that could have resulted in harm to them. I am happy they are fine.

 

The Starbucks lady acted as an adult and called to report unattended minors.

 

Your life must be rich and full then and probably you have the cops of speed dial if you think that all unattended minors require a visit from the police. How do you know SKL's girls haven't been trained in personal safety? 

 

It's a wonder we let kids out at all. Maybe some of us don't, I guess. 

[SKL]

You left two young children in an unsupervised automobile. Your behavior is out of the normal for our society. Children have died because their parents did the exact same thing that you did. Not just one random child in a random fluke situation. Many children. Every single year.

 

 

There you go again.  NO CHILD EVER DIED FROM BEING IN A LOCKED, STATIONARY CAR FOR A FEW MINUTES AT THAT HOUR OF THE EVENING.  Stop demonizing a reasonable action.  If my choice is "out of the normal for our society," it's because of sensationalism like what I quoted above.

 

I have studied in depth the cases of babies dying in hot cars.  They were ALL left in cars for at least a half hour, when the outside temperature was over 80 and the sun was shining.  None of them were school age.  Most of them were forgotten until hours later.  There were a couple incidences of babies getting themselves strangled by power windows.  Still extremely rare and very unlikely to happen to a school child, even if you didn't know that my car doesn't have power windows.

 

Children are much more likely to die doing things that are not demonized.  Accidents happen.  Just because some grandpa forgot a baby in a carseat on a hot day does not mean my FedEx run at 8:30pm was dangerous.

[ThisIsTheDay]

That aged child would not be hard to grab, throw into the car and take off with. I would have called as well.

 

Based on this comment, you would call the police on any 7yo child who was far enough away from a parent that someone could grab the child.  When you go out in public this week, you might take a look around and see how many times you would (theoretically) call the police. 

 

This is crazy, people!  Bad guys are not lurking around parking lots, waiting to bust out car windows and grab smaller children who are left unattended for three minutes.  Strangers do not represent a great danger to your children, and you are doing your kids a huge disservice to teach them differently.  The odds of your child needing to reach out for help to a stranger, at any age, are far, far, far greater than any imagined risk.  Where does this leave your kid if they need help and you're not there? 

 

These poor kids will grow into adults who are equally paranoid about imagined danger.  There's a reason stranger abduction stories make the news--they are extremely unusual.

 

If you want to protect your kids, watch who you let into their lives.  Don't worry about locking them in the car for three minutes.  (LOCKED IN, come one, ladies!!!)  I am so completely baffled by the responses here and the (thankfully very) few which show such paranoia. 

[8circles]

But it wasn't "nothing".  Once we allow other people to dictate how we raise our children, we lose control.  All it takes is an over zealous police officer and this becomes a nightmare.

 

The media is making us live in fear, and we are policing each other, instead of watching out for each other like we should.

 

Nobody dictated to SKL what she should do.  She left her children in the car (I would have done the same) & someone checked on their wellbeing.  There was no overzealous police officer in this situation.  This wasn't a nightmare.  Maybe (I think it was)  this woman calling the police was much ado about nothing.  The OP's original vent was also much ado about nothing. 

 

Nobody is "policing" anybody in this situation, someone was concerned for children.  I wouldn't have been concerned for the children in that situation but not everyone is me.  As to whether or not this is the job of the police to check on our children, I think this probably varies by region/population.  In my city, this would be a valid use of police time.  In the major city near me, probably not.  Not sure which kind of area SKL lives in.

[Galatea]

Some of the people posting in this thread really scare me.  So much paranoia and so much self-righteous judgment going on.  I'm a paranoid mom, but I'm only paranoid for myself and my child.  Other people have the right to worry about different things than I do.  Other people have the right to be more permissive than I am.  This doesn't make them stupid or irresponsible or bad parents.  This is just like all the stupid mommy wars arguments or dumb political arguments.  There are some people in the world who believe that if other people think differently than them, they think there is something wrong with them.  And I feel really sorry for those people, and I avoid people like that in real life, because just reading it here makes me cringe.

 

SKL, I agree with you.  The whole thing is ridiculous.  A waste of your time, a waste of a cop's time, and a step in the erosion of parental authority and responsibility.

[Χά�ων]

There you go again.  NO CHILD EVER DIED FROM BEING IN A LOCKED, STATIONARY CAR FOR A FEW MINUTES AT THAT HOUR OF THE EVENING.  Stop demonizing a reasonable action.  If my choice is "out of the normal for our society," it's because of sensationalism like what I quoted above.

 

I have studied in depth the cases of babies dying in hot cars.  They were ALL left in cars for at least a half hour, when the outside temperature was over 80 and the sun was shining.  None of them were school age.  Most of them were forgotten until hours later.  There were a couple incidences of babies getting themselves strangled by power windows.  Still extremely rare and very unlikely to happen to a school child, even if you didn't know that my car doesn't have power windows.

 

Children are much more likely to die doing things that are not demonized.  Accidents happen.  Just because some grandpa forgot a baby in a carseat on a hot day does not mean my FedEx run at 8:30pm was dangerous.

 

And how was this women to know that they would only be in the car for a few minutes and not hours and hours? Did you stop, make eye contact with her and say, "I will only be in the store for a few minutes." Probably not. I can assure you that Starbucks Lady does not have the ability to read your mind and had no way of knowing the ages of your children or the length of time you would be in the store. She called to report unattended minors in a car. I am sure that the parents of the babies who have died in hot cars would have loved it had someone made that same phone call.

[elegantlion]

I really, really want to see the news articles or police reports about 7 year old children dying in cars at 8:30pm.

 

 

By the way, those abduction statistics? Break it down...what percentage is stranger abduction vs parent/family abduction?

 

As I see it, sweeping generalizations are not a good thing on homeschooling board where we value logic and critical thinking. But then again some people are just here to stir things up, must be no unattended minors in their area, I guess. It's easier to through out random generalities and watch people respond. And on that note, I'm off to teach. 

 

Sorry, SKL, don't let those people get to you. I hope today is much better for you. 

[8circles]

Have you ever had the police or CPS called on you? It's a scary and horrible feeling - even when you know you've done nothing wrong. I vented to anyone who would listen for a long time and was fearful for quite a while.

 

Someone called the police and said I left my baby and toddler home alone. They heard crying and didn't see our car. They never knocked on the door. CPS and two officers showed up to be told we only had one car and dh took it everyday for his five minute drive to work. Yet, they came into my home, woke up my napping kids, and took pictures of them.

 

This just happened to SKL and it made her angry and probably scared her. She's venting. I don't get the big deal with two second graders in a car for a few minutes. I might have kept my eye on them, but I would not have called the police. IMHO, I think that was just too much.

 

I'm sorry that happened to you.  It was wrong.  That isn't the OP's situation.  I understand that she is worried for what could have happened.  So was the woman who called the police.  I happen to disagree with the woman who called the police.  But the reality is NOTHING HAPPENED.

[Χά�ων]

Based on this comment, you would call the police on any 7yo child who was far enough away from a parent that someone could grab the child.  When you go out in public this week, you might take a look around and see how many times you would (theoretically) call the police. 

 

 

Nope. I would call on a 7 year old child being left in a car while the parent left the vicinity which is exactly what SKL did.

[Catwoman]

I think that's where some posters differ on here. I did not see this instance as someone calling the cops on the OP but calling the cops to do a welfare check on some kids alone in a car at night.

:iagree:

 

I also gave the caller the benefit of the doubt and assumed she hadn't known how long the kids had been in the car.

 

Now it seems we're going off on the usual "helicopter parent vs free range parent" debate (although the terms haven't been mentioned... yet....) when this isn't what was at issue here. A woman saw two unattended young children alone in a car at night, so she called the police to check and make sure they were OK. Sure, we know that SKL is a good mom and was only gone for a few minutes, but the caller may not have known that.

 

As I have said in previous posts, if the woman saw SKL get out of the car and hurry into FedEx with a package, yet she still rushed to call the police, I would think that was an idiotic and rotten thing to do, but it's hard to imagine anyone doing that. I mean, maybe the woman is a lunatic who lies in wait, hoping to call the police on unsuspecting people in the FedEx parking lot, but I would assume that the vast majority of people wouldn't have made the call under those circumstances.

[mrs.m]

I really, really want to see the news articles or police reports about 7 year old children dying in cars at 8:30pm.

 

 

A few years ago in Kansas City, a car was hijacked with a school aged child in it. But I think that child survived. Horrific story though! This isn't the exact story but apparently it has happened again. http://www.kansascity.com/2013/05/01/4212117/woman-charged-with-car-theft-child.html

 

However, I believe that these stories aren't what is likely to happen when a parent leaves a child in a car. But I can understand why others are posting it is not a good idea to ever leave a child in a car.

[twoxcell]

 

Now it seems we're going off on the usual helicopter parent vs free range parent debate (although the terms haven't been mentioned... yet....) when this isn't what was at issue here. A woman saw two unattended young children alone in a car at night, so she called the police to check and make sure they were OK. Sure, we know that SKL is a good mom and was only gone for a few minutes, but the caller may not have known that.

:iagree: This is not the debate I was engaging in last night.

[Galatea]

http://www.nj.com/cumberland/index.ssf/2013/06/vineland_police_8-year-old_gir_2.html

 

And a few years ago in Kansas City, a car was hijacked with a school aged child in it. But I think that child survived. Horrific story though! This isn't the exact story but apparently it has happened again. http://www.kansascity.com/2013/05/01/4212117/woman-charged-with-car-theft-child.html

 

However, I believe that these stories aren't what is likely to happen when a parent leaves a child in a car. But I can understand why others are posting it is not a good idea to ever leave a child in a car.

 

That was not a child dying in a car in the evening, that was a child being struck by a car while crossing a busy road.  What was the point of posting that?

[mrs.m]

oops wrong article....

[SKL]

And how was this women to know that they would only be in the car for a few minutes and not hours and hours? Did you stop, make eye contact with her and say, "I will only be in the store for a few minutes." Probably not. I can assure you that Starbucks Lady does not have the ability to read your mind and had no way of knowing the ages of your children or the length of time you would be in the store. She called to report unattended minors in a car. I am sure that the parents of the babies who have died in hot cars would have loved it had someone made that same phone call.

 

One, because FedEx isn't open for hours and hours after 8:30pm (and there isn't much to do there).  Two, because it was sunset and no parked car ever got hotter and hotter after sunset.  Three, she should have first checked to see if they were babies if that was the basis on which she decided to call the cops.

 

In my world, calling the cops on someone is not a friendly action.  An exception is made if there is a clear danger to a child, which did not exist here.

 

Furthermore, while I appreciate people in the community noticing when someone is in trouble, I do not appreciate people making all kinds of worst-first assumptions or calling the cops because "how do they know I'm NOT an a$$hole."

[Guest]

She is not cc'd on my rant.  

:lol:

[Galatea]

:iagree:

 

I also gave the caller the benefit of the doubt and assumed she hadn't known how long the kids had been in the car.

 

Now it seems we're going off on the usual "helicopter parent vs free range parent" debate (although the terms haven't been mentioned... yet....) when this isn't what was at issue here. A woman saw two unattended young children alone in a car at night, so she called the police to check and make sure they were OK. Sure, we know that SKL is a good mom and was only gone for a few minutes, but the caller may not have known that.

 

It doesn't matter if the caller didn't know she was only gone a couple of minutes.  It is a waste of time to call the police for something other than a crime or accident IN PROGRESS or having occurred, or in a situation where it is LIKELY that a crime or accident would occur.  There was no crime committed since it isn't illegal to leave a child alone, nor alone in vehicle, in her jurisdiction, no crime or accident was in progress, and the chance of an accident or crime being committed on those children wasn't likely either.  It is simple self-righteousness and paranoia that led to a call like that.  And that's not what police are for.

[Χά�ων]

One, because FedEx isn't open for hours and hours after 8:30pm (and there isn't much to do there).  Two, because it was sunset and no parked car ever got hotter and hotter after sunset.  Three, she should have first checked to see if they were babies if that was the basis on which she decided to call the cops.

 

In my world, calling the cops on someone is not a friendly action.  An exception is made if there is a clear danger to a child, which did not exist here.

 

Furthermore, while I appreciate people in the community noticing when someone is in trouble, I do not appreciate people making all kinds of worst-first assumptions or calling the cops because "how do they know I'm NOT an a$$hole."

 

You assume everyone knows that. Here, well, in the city not my rural town that doesn't even have a fed ex, Fed ex is open 24/7. It is part of another store and they are hopping even at 2am.

 

I would not approach someone else car. For all I know you could be insane and try to accuse me of doing something to your kids.

 

Again, she had no way of knowing they were not in danger.

[SKL]

If I was in that parking lot looking for an easy to grab female I would go for your girls. They are smaller and easier to grab and go.

 

The Starbucks lady is of the age of majority and is assumed by our society to be able to make an informed choice regarding her safety in her current surroundings. She also has had the time in life to learn self defense and learn ways to protect herself. In our country those over the age of majority are assumed to be able to care for themselves.

 

Your daughters are not of that age the burden is on you for their protection. You did something that could have resulted in harm to them. I am happy they are fine.

 

The Starbucks lady acted as an adult and called to report unattended minors.

 

OK, how about this?  I am of the age of majority and [should be] assumed by our society to be able to make an informed choice regarding my children's safety in our current surroundings.  Further, my kids have had karate lessons including self-defense for 3.5 years, and besides, there are two of them, neither of whom is likely to go quietly with a guy who just busted into my car.

 

As for a would-be rapist, people who would want to rape a woman would not usually consider a second-grade girl a good substitute.  It is the extremely rare sicko who preys on prepubescent girls whom they don't even know.  Statistically the kids were in more danger of being hit by a car in the parking lot than being kidnapped by a pedophile.  It is completely unhelpful to force parents into making choices that don't actually make our kids safer.

 

[Scrub Jay]

Also, just as an aside, let's remember that it does not have to be hot to be a safety hazard for children to be left in cars. There are plenty of places in the summer where it can be 70 degrees at 8:30pm. Please see the link as a good safety reminder. http://www.onetoughjob.org/safety/safety/never-leave-a-child-alone-in-a-car-in-warm-weather

[SKL]

You assume everyone knows that. Here, well, in the city not my rural town that doesn't even have a fed ex, Fed ex is open 24/7. It is part of another store and they are hopping even at 2am.

 

I would not approach someone else car. For all I know you could be insane and try to accuse me of doing something to your kids.

 

Again, she had no way of knowing they were not in danger.

 

We are going to have to agree to disagree.  If you think it was remotely possible that the caller thought I was giong into FedEx (the ultimate social hotspot) to make a night of it while my kids languished alone in the car, you are a lot more charitable - to her type, at least - than I am.

 

Again "she had no way of knowing they were NOT in danger" does not fly.  I have no way of knowing your kids are NOT in danger right now.  That is not a reason to call the police.

 

ETA, yes she did have a "way of knowing they were not in danger."  She could have gone up to the car and looked in.  She would have seen two healthy, happy children sitting in the back seat like they were supposed to.

 

The argument that I might be dangerous to her is ridiculous.

 

Apparently you think it is more responsible to call the police on kids left alone momentarily than to actually go up and do a visual check to see if they are OK.  This is not my idea of community.

[vonfirmath]

:iagree:

 

How does one get in and out of fedex in three minutes?  That is an impressive fedex.

 

I guess it depends on the store. I thought three minutes was taking a long time in a Fed Ex store where you just need to hand the package over the counter because the label is preprinted.

[Wendi]

Also, just as an aside, let's remember that it does not have to be hot to be a safety hazard for children to be left in cars. There are plenty of places in the summer where it can be 70 degrees at 8:30pm. Please see the link as a good safety reminder. http://www.onetoughjob.org/safety/safety/never-leave-a-child-alone-in-a-car-in-warm-weather

 

It can still be over 100 degrees here at 8:30pm. I live on the surface of the sun, I mean Arizona. Our nighttime lows are upper 80s, low 90s in the hottest part of the summer. Brr!

[elegantlion]

A few years ago in Kansas City, a car was hijacked with a school aged child in it. But I think that child survived. Horrific story though! This isn't the exact story but apparently it has happened again. http://www.kansascity.com/2013/05/01/4212117/woman-charged-with-car-theft-child.html

 

However, I believe that these stories aren't what is likely to happen when a parent leaves a child in a car. But I can understand why others are posting it is not a good idea to ever leave a child in a car.

 

Are you familiar with Kansas City? 18th and Parallel is not a neighborhood where anyone should leave their kids in the car. I doubt there is a Starbucks and Fed Ex store near there, however. 

 

Actually I just looked it up, the nearest Starbucks is at Parallel and 109th St. Several miles and a few interstates away. 

 

I am quite sure SKL know her neighborhood enough to asses whether it's a safety issue in general. 

[SKL]

It can still be over 100 degrees here at 8:30pm. I live on the surface of the sun, I mean Arizona. Our nighttime lows are upper 80s, low 90s in the hottest part of the summer. Brr!

 

OK but it was NOT 100 degrees here last night.  It was pleasant and it was sunset.  If it WAS anywhere near 100 degrees in my car, I would not have left my kids in it.  One would think that I'd get the benefit of the doubt on that.

 

[ondreeuh]

A few years ago in Kansas City, a car was hijacked with a school aged child in it. But I think that child survived. Horrific story though! This isn't the exact story but apparently it has happened again. http://www.kansascity.com/2013/05/01/4212117/woman-charged-with-car-theft-child.html

 

However, I believe that these stories aren't what is likely to happen when a parent leaves a child in a car. But I can understand why others are posting it is not a good idea to ever leave a child in a car.

 

In this story, the mom ran into the gas station to pay and someone (a woman!) hopped in the car and drove off - so presumably the doors were unlocked and the key was available - maybe even in the ignition. The kids were dropped off, so I also presume that auto theft was the goal and not abduction. This is not the same thing as someone stealing kids out of a locked car. To the "lunatic" poster - I would be interested to see if you can find ONE report of a child stolen from a LOCKED car. Ever. The only cases I've heard of where a child was "stolen" from a car at a convenience store or gas station turned out to be hoaxes - the parents actually killed the child and staged an abduction.

 

Like a PP, I had the cops arrive at my door one day when someone "turned me in" for leaving my baby alone. I was home (in my 2-room apartment!) the whole time, which is what the busybody would have known if s/he had knocked on my door to see if things were OK. I was very shaken - I knew the person was wrong, but it wasn't like I could just let it roll off my back. I also found out the hard way that people get freaked out if you leave your uber-responsible 8 year old home alone for an hour when she's sick so you don't have to drag her to your appointment. I am just now comfortable leaving my 12 year-old and 5 year-old in the car while I run into the library to drop off books. Not because I fear for their safety AT ALL, but because I am worried about being harassed.

 

SKL, you have a lot of supporters here who agree that you took a completely acceptable risk by leaving your girls in the car how/where/when you did. I don't blame you for being shaken by the LEO investigating.

[Χά�ων]

We are going to have to agree to disagree.  If you think it was remotely possible that the caller thought I was giong into FedEx (the ultimate social hotspot) to make a night of it while my kids languished alone in the car, you are a lot more charitable - to her type, at least - than I am.

 

Again "she had no way of knowing they were NOT in danger" does not fly.  I have no way of knowing your kids are NOT in danger right now.  That is not a reason to call the police.

 

ETA, yes she did have a "way of knowing they were not in danger."  She could have gone up to the car and looked in.  She would have seen two healthy, happy children sitting in the back seat like they were supposed to.

 

The argument that I might shoot her is ridiculous.  I'll leave it at that.

 

Call the local police station. Ask to review the 911 dispatch tape.

 

 

You are right that you do not know if mine are in danger but you also are not watching me engage in an action that could be potentially life threatening to mine. If you did you would be under obligation to call. Saying "I can't see that you are NOT causing possible harm" as a rebuttal for someone reporting you for doing something they witnessed you do that could cause possible harm is not even a remotely reasonable comparison. You have no first hand knowledge of what is happening here. Someone did have first hand knowledge of what you did and they acted on it. If you have first hand knowledge of me doing something that could cause harm to mine, feel free to call 911. You do not have such knowledge and cannot make that call. Here, tell you what, my 9 year old is only on grade level for math, but cannot read. I could meet the guidelines for educational neglect in my state. Cal 911. I dare you. Let me know how that goes. I guarantee they will laugh at you for reporting a random stranger who may or may not even currently be in the US for educational neglect when you do not even have a clue what I am doing with him or where I live. Go for it. I dare you.

[Soror]

Also, just as an aside, let's remember that it does not have to be hot to be a safety hazard for children to be left in cars. There are plenty of places in the summer where it can be 70 degrees at 8:30pm. Please see the link as a good safety reminder. http://www.onetoughjob.org/safety/safety/never-leave-a-child-alone-in-a-car-in-warm-weather

It seems to me that one should respond to the situation based on what it is currently happening not what it could be. Right now it is only in the 70s in the evenings, it is not unusual this time of year for it to be in the 90s. I assume that if it was still blasted hot SKL wouldn't have her kids in the car. Nevermind that according to the law she didn't do anything illegal in her location.

[Soror]

dp

[SKL]

 If you have first hand knowledge of me doing something that could cause harm to mine, feel free to call 911. You do not have such knowledge and cannot make that call. Here, tell you what, my 9 year old is only on grade level for math, but cannot read. I could meet the guidelines for educational neglect in my state. Cal 911. I dare you. Let me know how that goes. I guarantee they will laugh at you for reporting a random stranger who may or may not even currently be in the US for educational neglect when you do not even have a clue what I am doing with him or where I live. Go for it. I dare you.

 

Where's your mellow demeanor when I merely observe that not knowing your child is NOT in danger is NOT a reason for me to call the cops on you?  Could it be that the mere mention of someone calling the cops on your parenting is unsettling?  I would love to see how you react when it happens to you.

 

[Mimmy]

What an annoying situation! I'm sorry. I would feel 100% comfortable leaving my kids in the car in the situation you described.

[Parrothead]

Are you a mandatory reporter in your state? Was she making threats or exhibiting behavior that made you concerned for her safety or the safety of other people? Or was she just sitting outside a coffee shop drinking a coffee? Sitting outside a Starbucks is considered a socially normal behavior in our society. Had you called you would have run the risk of being charged with making a false report, because that is what it would be.

 

You left two young children in an unsupervised automobile. Your behavior is out of the normal for our society. Children have died because their parents did the exact same thing that you did. Not just one random child in a random fluke situation. Many children. Every single year.

It isn't socially unacceptable to leave kids in the vehicle for a short errand. What is socially unacceptable is to lock a child or animal in a hot car for an extended length of time. Or to leave a child locked in a car for an extended length of time while the parent goes into a bar.

 

The only reason many people are trying to make it socially unacceptable is because the fear mongering media and busybodies with too much time on their hands and no life.

 

If the LEO that answered the call on SKL had really bed doing his duty, he would have talked to the person who made the call and told him/her about it not being a crime in the state in which they live and about making a false (he said the called said the kids were alone for an extended period of time) report to authorities. That is actually illegal in all states.

[SKL]

 Saying "I can't see that you are NOT causing possible harm" as a rebuttal for someone reporting you for doing something they witnessed you do that could cause possible harm is not even a remotely reasonable comparison.

 

What possible harm could have been caused by what was witnessed?

 

Keep in mind that the caller was well aware of the fact that the temperature was mild and it was sunset and that I was going into the FedEx storefront with a prepared FedEx envelope.

[Parrothead]

 

 

For that matter, should it be illegal for school-aged kids to walk down the street? Play outside? Go buy themselves an ice cream cone?

 

.

I'm afraid this may actually come to pass at some point in our future.

[renmew]

Also, just as an aside, let's remember that it does not have to be hot to be a safety hazard for children to be left in cars. There are plenty of places in the summer where it can be 70 degrees at 8:30pm. Please see the link as a good safety reminder. http://www.onetoughjob.org/safety/safety/never-leave-a-child-alone-in-a-car-in-warm-weather

 

Okay, I read that site with an open mind, prepared to learn something useful and important, but the information just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I don't believe that a car parked in the sun in 70 or even 80 degree weather gets to be 120 degrees in 20 minutes or 150 degrees in 40 minutes. I call bs. Really.  Because how many times in that kind of weather have we tried to get into the car and felt it was too hot, to be in there, to buckle up, to grasp the steering wheel. My kids tell me when it's too hot to touch the buckles, and those are the days where it is 95 degrees and more, not in the 70's and 80's. One summer I was working at a camp in Northridge, CA, which is in the San Fernando Valley and hot as H377 in the summer. At the peak the temps hit 118, and the days when it was well above 100 I could not touch the steering wheel until I had turned on the engine and run my AC for at least five minutes to cool down the car. Since I was teaching science camp I had a thermometer with me, and was able to see that it was 145 degrees in my car at 4:30 pm, after sitting there for 8 hours in 100+ degree weather.

 

I think that site is trying scare tactics so that stupid people with no common sense will not even leave their kids in the car at all, even when it is perfectly safe and reasonable to leave school-aged children in a car for 5 minutes in evening temperatures.

 

Just to be sure, though, I am going to go sit in my car right now for 20 minutes and see how hot it gets. It's 72 and sunny outside, so I may not survive this experiment if I try to stay any longer than that.

[Tammi K]

In the more northern areas, yes, it can be dark. Remember the further north one goes the closer one gets to the part of the world that is in darkness 24 hours a day by the winter solstice. As we are past the summer solstice for this year is is already getting dark earlier and earlier. i commented to dh two evenings ago that it is dark before 8p now. Where I live it is dark by 4:30p durning the week of Christmas.

 

Not sure what part of 'North' you're living in, but our summer nights are light until 2am around the solstice and now, in mid-August, it is still light until 11:00. Yes, it will get dark by 3:30pm, but that isn't until December - not in the middle of summer.

[Parrothead]

You did something that could have resulted in harm to them. I am happy they are fine.

 

So you never put your children in the car?

 

Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for children of every age from 2 to 14 years old (based on 2001 figures, which are the latest mortality data currently available from the National Center for Health Statistics).

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809762.pdf

 

During the study year, there were an estimated 115 stereotypical kidnappings, defined as abductions per- petrated by a stranger or slight acquaintance and involving a child who was transported 50 or more miles, detained overnight, held for ransom or with the intent to keep the child permanently, or killed

http://www.missingkids.com/en_US/documents/nismart2_nonfamily.pdf

 

Spastically your kids are in more danger in a moving car than they are parked and locked in at Starbucks.

 

Yes, I've always said somebody has to be the 1 in the 1 out of 100, but in this case it is highly unlikely that SKL's girls would be the 1.

 

If most people knew the chances of severe injury or death in putting their kids in a vehicle to go to school, there would be a lot more moms and dads walking their kids to school everyday.

[Parrothead]

Not sure what part of 'North' you're living in, but our summer nights are light until 2am around the solstice and now, in mid-August, it is still light until 11:00. Yes, it will get dark by 3:30pm, but that isn't until December - not in the middle of summer.

You are north of me.

 

Yes, I know the dark happens in winter.

[SKL]

Okay, I read that site with an open mind, prepared to learn something useful and important, but the information just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I don't believe that a car parked in the sun in 70 or even 80 degree weather gets to be 120 degrees in 20 minutes or 150 degrees in 40 minutes. I call bs. Really.  Because how many times in that kind of weather have we tried to get into the car and felt it was too hot, to be in there, to buckle up, to grasp the steering wheel. My kids tell me when it's too hot to touch the buckles, and those are the days where it is 95 degrees and more, not in the 70's and 80's. One summer I was working at a camp in Northridge, CA, which is in the San Fernando Valley and hot as H377 in the summer. At the peak the temps hit 118, and the days when it was well above 100 I could not touch the steering wheel until I had turned on the engine and run my AC for at least five minutes to cool down the car. Since I was teaching science camp I had a thermometer with me, and was able to see that it was 145 degrees in my car at 4:30 pm, after sitting there for 8 hours in 100+ degree weather.

 

I think that site is trying scare tactics so that stupid people with no common sense will not even leave their kids in the car at all, even when it is perfectly safe and reasonable to leave school-aged children in a car for 5 minutes in evening temperatures.

 

Just to be sure, though, I am going to go sit in my car right now for 20 minutes and see how hot it gets. It's 72 and sunny outside, so I may not survive this experiment if I try to stay any longer than that.

 

We'll miss you  . . . .

 

Just kidding!

 

I agree that there is a lot of exaggeration behind the recommendation to *never* leave a child in a car.  If you look at the actual cases where babies have died, you will not see any that occurred in that 10-minute window of time they keep mentioning - not even close.  I think they are trying to "err on the safe side," and I can see why.  I mean, what heartwrenching stories.  But it would be better for them to provide true facts and let parents make a decision.  Almost none of those heat accidents resulted from intentional decisions to leave a child in the car long enough to die.  Most of the time the person had no intention of leaving the child at all, but forgot the child was there.  A few times it was an irresponsible nanny shopping at the mall or similar.  But normally these accidents were caused by forgetfulness, not ignorance of the danger of overheating.  Of course no sane person is going to leave their child in a dangerously hot car on purpose.

[Parrothead]

Children die in cars almost daily and they die fast because of the heat. 8:30 is still hot..

That depends entirely on where one lives. And One's weather. For example, where I live it won't break70*F today and sunset is at 7:45. One would probably be most comfortable in long sleeves when in a vehicle at 8:30p around here.

[myfunnybunch]

One, because FedEx isn't open for hours and hours after 8:30pm (and there isn't much to do there). 

 

It seems to me that you're placing a great deal of responsibility on the caller for knowing exactly what you were doing.

 

You expect her to have noticed that your envelope said FedEx on it. Whether the package is clearly labeled or not, I don't pay that much attention to strangers. I might have noticed you were carrying something. Not only are you expecting her to have known where you were going, you're expecting her to know the hours of the FedEx store and to extrapolate from that information that you only have that one errand, and therefore, you'll only be gone for a few minutes.

 

And you're implying that the call was an unfriendly action.

 

It's more likely that she's a well-meaning person who didn't know what to do. She might not have seen you leave at all; if she did, she might not have noticed all of the details you seem to be expecting her to have attended to. So she called the police, or saw a police officer nearby. (In three minutes, it's quite astonishing that she could have made a call, and the police officer could have been dispatched, and he arrived!)

 

You don't have to give her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she's just a meddling jerk. But it's not reasonable to expect a complete stranger to pay that level of attention to you, either. (And I do distinguish between attention paid to a label on an envelope, even a large envelope, and children in a car, so let's not argue that those should/would/could attract equal attention.)

 

Cat

[Parrothead]

I just thought of something else pertaining to this situation. Of all the school aged kids locked in a car so their parent could run an errand last night in SKL's city, SKL's children were the safest of the lot. No self-respecting kidnapper is going to snatch a kid from a parked and locked car with the cops so close by that he got there within moments of receiving the call.

 

I know not every parent who locks the kids in the vehicle can get so lucky, but in this instance it did happen and should be taken into consideration.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I don't care how long the kids were in the car. I don't car if the lady was being a busybody or ridiculous calling the cops so fast. I don't care if it was day or night, hot or cold. I don't car if the kids were in the car 3 minutes or 3 hours.  All of that is irrelevant.   In most states it is against the law to leave children under a certain age unattended in a vehicle, that is the relevant point.  So don't do it. 

[Ravin]

You know what I want to know? What backwater red tape library doesn't allow you to either renew library books online, or call and renew them.

[SKL]

It seems to me that you're placing a great deal of responsibility on the caller for knowing exactly what you were doing.

 

You expect her to have noticed that your envelope said FedEx on it. Whether the package is clearly labeled or not, I don't pay that much attention to strangers. I might have noticed you were carrying something. Not only are you expecting her to have known where you were going, you're expecting her to know the hours of the FedEx store and to extrapolate from that information that you only have that one errand, and therefore, you'll only be gone for a few minutes.

 

And you're implying that the call was an unfriendly action.

 

It's more likely that she's a well-meaning person who didn't know what to do. She might not have seen you leave at all; if she did, she might not have noticed all of the details you seem to be expecting her to have attended to. So she called the police, or saw a police officer nearby. (In three minutes, it's quite astonishing that she could have made a call, and the police officer could have been dispatched, and he arrived!)

 

You don't have to give her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she's just a meddling jerk. But it's not reasonable to expect a complete stranger to pay that level of attention to you, either. (And I do distinguish between attention paid to a label on an envelope, even a large envelope, and children in a car, so let's not argue that those should/would/could attract equal attention.)

 

Cat

 

You're missing my point.  My point is that she did not have any reason to believe my kids were in danger.  You don't call the cops just because you DON'T know someone is NOT in danger.  At least, I don't.  And yes, I think it's mean.  Bad things can happen because cops are unpredictable.

 

There have been times I've seen people leave their babies and tots in the car when it is sunny.  I watch to see where the parent is going and if the parent comes back within what I consider a reasonable time (i.e., before a car has time to get hot).  So far the parent always has come back promptly.  I have never called the cops on a parent who made this choice.  But I would if I felt the child had really been in the car long enough to get hot, AND I could not find the parent quickly.  I would also try to open the car myself if I really thought a child was in danger overheating.  I'd call the cops if I couldn't do anything to help.

 

[MFG]

You know what I want to know? What backwater red tape library doesn't allow you to either renew library books online, or call and renew them.

Ha! I was thinking the same thing!

[SKL]

I don't care how long the kids were in the car. I don't car if the lady was being a busybody or ridiculous calling the cops so fast. I don't care if it was day or night, hot or cold. I don't car if the kids were in the car 3 minutes or 3 hours.  All of that is irrelevant.   In most states it is against the law to leave children under a certain age unattended in a vehicle, that is the relevant point.  So don't do it. 

 

According to kidsandcars.com, only 17 states have such laws.  Mine is not one of them.

 

ETA, I clicked on a few of the state laws, and so far 2 of the 3 would not apply at my kids' age, and 1 of the 3 only applies if the vehicle is in some sort of unsafe situation (e.g., it's hot outside).  No patience to check all the others.

 

ETAA, I got curious and clicked all of them.  Only a couple of states actually prohibit what I did.  The others apply only to younger kids, and/or only where there is danger of overheating etc., and/or only if the car is running or keys are inside, and/or only if the child is left longer than x minutes (more than the time I left mine).  So it seems the law would be on my side almost everywhere, considering there was no actual danger in sitting in the car for a few minutes.