Extreme rationality and faith

[Dicentra]

I have been searching, questioning, and doubting my personal belief system for a few years now.  As a bit of background...  I was raised as a Baptist (not terribly strictly or consistently) and attended a fairly modern, charismatic Baptist church while I was a university student.  I have gone through phases in my life where my adherence to the Christian faith was strict and other times where I think I was just paying lip-service.  As I grew up, I never thought to question the existence of God - that was a fundamental given that wasn't up for debate.  Now I'm questioning.

 

For those of you who are familiar with the Myers-Briggs terminology, I am an INTJ.  The I, the N, and the T are very far to those ends of the spectra.  The J is closer to the middle but always comes out as a J.  I don't put a lot of importance into the Myers-Briggs classification system but I find it's handy to quickly give an overview of personality.  I am a very, very rational person.  Emotions and emotional responses and reasons are, for the most part, not terribly useful to me.  I have read books on faith from many different view points.  I have had discussions with close friends.  I feel like I'm further away from an answer than ever.  Maybe I'm just searching for an answer to a question that can't be answered rationally - I don't know.  A very good friend of mine asked what I was searching for.  Proof of God?  I said no - but I am searching for certainty.  Does my differentiating between proof and certainty make sense?  Bleh - I feel like I'm rambling and not making any sense so I'll just cut to the chase...

 

Is anyone out there willing to share how they reconcile their extreme rationality with faith?  Is it possible to reconcile extreme rationality with faith?  If so, which faith?  And how?

 

(I keep re-reading my post and trying to figure out if it's going to come off as offensive to anyone.  I express myself in writing very badly.  I truly, truly mean no offense to anyone.  Really. :))

[Sandragood1]

For myself, I find that faith and rationality are two different animals entirely. Sometimes I have more faith. Sometimes less. Rarely, none. I'm OK with that.

 

The best fitting spiritual home I have found is Unitarian Universalism. Here you are allowed, even encouraged, to ask questions and find your own way. There is even an adult ed class to help you define your own beliefs.

 

Congregations vary widely. There can be pagans, Christians, Jews, atheists, etc. within each church or fellowship. Check the web site for more information. I think it is UUA. Org

 

Also, have you tried the quiz at belief.net ? It has been a few years but I found it really helpful. It is pretty in depth.

 

I hope you find something that works for you.

[AK_Mom4]

I am an extremely rational, black and white kind of person.  At least, I consider myself to be that way, so it seems likely.

 

I have consciously decided that there is room in my life for some not-black-and-white things.  Beauty, Affection, Discord, and Faith - among others.

 

You can choose to carve out space in your being (or soul if you will) for these things.  A separate space apart from the rational mind where you choose to have these things.

 

[Parrothead]

I can tell you that St. Thomas Aquinas did come up with proof of God. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_Theologica

 

You can read it on kindle http://www.amazon.com/Theologica-Secundae-Complete-American-ebook/dp/B0084CE1LK/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374979139&sr=1-3&keywords=summa+theologica

 

The past that lists his Five Ways can be read here: http://web.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasFiveWays.htm

 

A synopsis of the above can be found http://web.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/web%20publishing/aquinasfiveways_argumentanalysis.htm

[LizzyBee]

You could read some Thomas Aquinas and Peter Kreeft. 

 

Here's a blurb about Kreeft's audio book Faith and Reason: The Philosphy of Religion.  (He's written about 70 books in total.)

 

Boston College professor Peter Kreeft's lectures examine the eternal question of faith and present the most compelling arguments for and against God's existence, the seeming conflicts between religion and science, and the different truth-claims of the world's most popular religions.

 

 

[Murphy101]

You sound very much like me. Eventually my questions led me from being raised not Christian to the roman catholic church.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "certainty". Very little about life is certain.

[ElizabethB]

I am an INTP. I found C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity helpful in my faith journey. I also like Francis Schaffer and Nancy Pearcey.

[kentuckymom]

Keep reading and talking. I recommend THE REASON FOR GOD: FAITH IN AN AGE OF SKEPTICISM by Timothy Keller, along with other books that have been recommended. Also do some reading on the historical basis of various world religions. Christianity has a lot more to recommend it historically than many other religions. That might help your rational side. I'm an ISFJ and I'm a polar F, so emotional arguments definitely impact me, but I understand the rational part a bit as well because I'm also an armchair intellectual :). There are two main things that have kept me in the Christian faith outside of my own feelings and experiences: 1) I've studied other world religions, and most of them sound a whole lot more ridiculous than Christianity 2) the people I admire the most, many of whom are smarter and more well educated than I am, are committed Christians. Who am I to say they're wrong?

 

When it comes down to it, though, there are some decent arguments for the existence of God, but you're never going to find definite, irrefutable proof. 

[forty-two]

I'm an INTJ, too :). I'm Lutheran, and I appreciate my tradition's openness to personal questions and doubt, while at the same time upholding what we believe to be Truth - we see saving faith (a thing that God creates and maintains) as interwined with but ultimately separate from our beliefs about God and Truth, so doubts, even serious ones, are perfectly compatible with having saving faith - you don't have to choose between using your brain and having faith.

 

I've struggled with the question of how I can know that what I believe to be the truth really *is* capital-T truth, along with the related (to me, anyway) question of whether my faith is falsifiable - is there anything that I would accept as proof that my faith isn't real?

 

Right now my conclusion is that, no, my faith is unfalisfiable - I *believe* it is true, but, as there is no way to prove it false, there is no way to prove it true, either. I admit, this bothers me some, that the very foundation of everything I believe is not intellectually provable - that I will hold to it no matter how illogical it seems or how many elegant proofs are raised against it. But I can more easily accept having unproven beliefs than not having my faith. The world is bigger than my ability to understand it.

 

That's where I am, anyway - my core faith in Christ is for me like an axiom, not a theorem - it underlies everything, and all my other beliefs are only as good as the assumption that God exists, loves us, and sent Christ to die for us, but the axioms underlying the system (in this case, the world) can't themselves be proven from within the system/world. If that analogy makes any sense ;).

[dbmamaz]

while i'm not a person of faith exactly, i have a few places i suspend disbelief.  For me, also, i separate them.  The spiritual and the logical fill different needs.  you dont have to analyze the spiritual.  its kinda like with music - i was classically trained and judged music by its complexity and the skill with which it was played.  it took a boyfriend who was a musician to teach me to enjoy music with the right side of the brain - the big picture, the feeling, the transcendental.  The effect of the music was as important as the logic of it and sometimes more-so.  I like to remember that many studies show that people who go to church tend to be happier, and that people turn to faith because it makes them feel more secure.  So i focus on what it makes me feel, not on whether it makes sense.  i also go to a UU church.  

[Veritaserum]

I'm INTJ as well and have undergone a transformation from the denomination I was raised in (LDS/Mormon) to something else (some kind of generic liberal Christian). I've spent the past couple of years really studying and puzzling out what resonates with me as true. For me that also involves examining how a certain belief or principle impacts my behavior. In my previous religion, the focus on rules, obedience, and a prescribed path led me to judge myself and others harshly because I was preoccupied with how well I and others conformed to the "one right way." Distancing myself from the church has allowed me to be a better person.

 

I enjoy listening to podcasts on religion and I belong to a number of online theological discussion groups. I do still believe in God, but I am no longer worried about a certain set of rules or hell or things like that. I'm now certain that I can't be certain, but I've made peace with that and simply seek to walk a path that makes me a better person. :-)

[ktgrok]

Read Mere Christianity, at least the first part. C.S. Lewis makes faith rational..or exposes how rational it is, anyway.

[Twigs]

What helped me was to actually study the Bible itself.  I used Precept Upon Precept Bible studies, which not only are Bible studies, but they teach you how to study the Bible on your own (especially the New Testament Letters studies). Something like this may help you. Classes are offered in many locations.

Best Wishes.

[milovany]

Extreme rationality (needing to make everything fit) turns me OFF from a faith.  If it all makes sense and is compartmentalized and dogmatized, it makes the think, "So God can be figured out?"  I like the faith our church teaches because it's based on practice and tradition more than reason and rationality.  We know God, we come into communion with God, through practices and traditions and prayers that might not always make sense to the rational mind, but that bring us to a place of abiding in Him and Him in us.  That's what we want -- communion with God, not an understanding of God or a belief system about God. 

 

Good journey. 

[Sisyphus]

I could not rationalize them, and am now an atheist. My oldest is also an atheist, despite my many attempts to give him a faith. I logically find faith and a faith tradition a very comforting thing, and important to the human experience (especially as Americans) but...sometimes it doesn't work out no matter how much we want to believe. I think some of us are just missing the "faith" gene, the ability to suspend logical thought and truly believe. I often feel I am missing out on a large part of the human experience because of this, but it is what it is. 

 

 

[albeto.]

 Is it possible to reconcile extreme rationality with faith? 

 

 

I think not. At some point you'll decide to either believe anyway (that's what faith is), or accept a secular outlook on life (not such a bad deal, if I do say so myself). 

 

:)

[AdventureMoms]

 

I could not rationalize them, and am now an atheist. My oldest is also an atheist, despite my many attempts to give him a faith. I logically find faith and a faith tradition a very comforting thing, and important to the human experience (especially as Americans) but...sometimes it doesn't work out no matter how much we want to believe. I think some of us are just missing the "faith" gene, the ability to suspend logical thought and truly believe. I often feel I am missing out on a large part of the human experience because of this, but it is what it is.

Yup this is me. Though I don't really feel that I'm missing out. I tried to find faith, but just couldn't make it happen. Studied the bible thoroughly, but could never get past the obvious contradictions and fallacies. Learned fast and hard that one absolutely CANNOT discuss these things with Christians or you just offend everyone and lose friends. Members of other faiths do a little better but still it comes down to "you just have to believe". And I don't. So atheism it is.

 

I'm also INTJ. strong on all four.

[Incognito]

Madeline L'Engle has a number of autobiographical books she has written that speak to this.  I am currently reading Bright Evening Star  http://www.amazon.com/Bright-Evening-Star-Incarnation-Literary/dp/0877880794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374987063&sr=8-1&keywords=madeline+l%27engle+bright+evening+star

by her and it's her journey through these feelings (and what she has ended up with it as she has aged out the other side of them).

 

 

[Anne in CA]

As and INTJ myself, I am a Christian, although I am weak on belief in the theology of man. I am too rational for lots of it, lol. I have read the Bible for myself, multiple times, and, as a story it is cohesive and makes sense. On a spiritual level, it would be irrational of me to believe that there is no spirit world, that there is only what we can see in the physical realm, because I have had too many spiritual experiences. I didn't participate in the paranormal thread because my experiences have not been like that, well not most of them. I have had MANY dreams that happened later, Christians would call that prophesy. I have been led to pray for people and found out later that they were in deep trouble. I have "heard" God tell me to do strange things, and when I obey, amazing things have happened. Clearly God wants me to be a Christian, because he could have made sure I was born a Hindu or Muslim, or not born at all, but I was born into a Christian family to a mother who read me Bible stories.

 

The strangest spiritual experience I have ever had was that my dh was telling me about a coworker who was separating from his wife. That was all he knew, he had not worked with the coworker long and had NO details of the coworker's home life. For some reason I said, without thinking, "she will kill herself if he doesn't pay attention." I do NOT normally say things like that, let me assure you. I knew NOTHING about these people. For all I knew she was moving in with the man of her dreams and about to be wildly happy.  But two months later she did commit suicide even though they had two teen age sons.

 

But I am aware that many aspects if faith are hard to follow. I have had real doubts myself, but I always have to come back to what I know to be true. God chooses to communicate with me as a Christian. He doesn't have to, He is God, lol. I suppose Muslims feel the same way, and have their own encounters, but God did not lead me to be a different religion, and I could not be an atheist, because I have had too many spiritual experiences.  

 

I have a gay New Age friend who I love, who is concerned that my spiritual growth is hampered by Christianity. From his belief system that makes sense, and I respect his opinion, but again, if God wanted me to be New Age I would have had experiences that led up to that. Hope that helps.

[Dicentra]

Thank you to all the respondents so far. :)  It's late here so I'm off to bed but I've taken all your thoughts in and the mulling is commencing. :D  I would love to hear from persons of any and all faith or spiritual view points and also from those whose journey led them away from any faith.

 

Could I ask another question?  How did you (meaning the general "you") decide what belief system (or non-belief system) was right for you?  Was it just a feeling?  Was it by process of elimination?  Was it cultural?  Was it because of history?  Or was it not really a decision?

 

Sorry - I guess that was more than one question... ;)

 

'Night, all. :)

[milovany]

The (Christian) Holy Spirit reached out to a deep-seated need in me 25 or so years ago and I converted to Christianity from nothing.  The facts of history (in addition to some continued deep-seated needs in me in regard to faith) reached out to me about four years ago, and I converted to the ancient Orthodox faith.  I wanted to be a part of the church that was there at the beginning, historically.  I am home, now, and have no plans to leave, please Lord. 

 

Have a good sleep. 

[Erin]

I have been on this planet long enough to have seen things that defy rational explanation.  

For me, it's that knowledge that allows me to accept that there are simply things that exist beyond my comprehension.  

[Rosie_0801]

I find "faith" a funny word to use with regards to my spirituality because I pretty much have faith in what I consider to be blatantly obvious. For the most part, I take the blatantly obvious and organise it to suit my liking, so while I don't think many faults could be found with the furniture, anyone could argue day and night about the arrangement of it.

 

I use the labels I do because I found out there were words to describe me. It was pretty much "Hey! I'm one of them! There's a name for it! Who knew? Uh, probably everyone except me. Hmm. Never mind." I came to the opinions I have because I couldn't really help it. It's the risk one takes by thinking. :p

 

I'm a fan of DIY religion. If who you are turns out to be what a whole lot of other people are too, jolly good. If it doesn't, there are benefits to that too.

[BlsdMama]

You are my daughter. :)  She just took Meyers Briggs a few weeks ago, lol.

 

As an aside, her story is that she grew up with a mother who is an ENFP - practically your opposite in every way. :)

 

She just got done, a few months ago, taking Summit Ministries' program - Understanding the Times.

 

Please understand it is only our CURRENT Christian worldview that says that faith must be all emotional, touchy feely, based in your "heart."  That, frankly, is hogwash.  The Lord commanded us to love Him with our heart, yes, but also our MINDS.  The *choice* to follow Him isn't meant to be because "we're feelin' it" or because "it works for us" but BECAUSE of a very rational CHOICE to follow Him.

 

The current worldview supports faith in energetic, enthusiastic, outwardly passionate people.  However, faith, real faith, is the simple choice to pick up and follow.

 

Have you ever heard Voddie Baucham on Why I Choose to Believe the Bible?

 

You might really love it.

 

And, if after you watch it, you decide you'd like to chit chat, you're welcome to PM me.  My daughter felt her faith was somehow lacking because she had a logical, rational, calm personality.  She chose to love the Lord with her mind and her heart and it looks very different than MY faith, but it isn't less... It's just different.  And hers came from years of reading, researching, and finally a choice.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km4oBJ9GHc8

[NASDAQ]

I know two INTJs who are religious. They are both Catholic. One was born Catholic. The other defected from the Anglican church.

[duckens]

How do I reconcile extreme rationality with faith?

 

It's okay to be on a journey.

 

It's okay to not have all the answers.

 

It's okay to keep seeking, and to change your mind, and change your mind back again 5 years later.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

I am not intending any of the following to be offensive to others. 

 

Currently, I count myself as an atheist, although I am probably more of an agnostic.  I am also constantly reading and seeking, and I am open to moving closer to a Deity (God) if I feel motivated to do so.

 

With a science-oriented mind, I seek evidence.

 

However:

 

In the spiritual realm, I have decided that God (if I felt there was evidence for his existence) mostly asks three things of us:

1) Love God  (self-explanatory)

2) Love One Another (self-explanatory)

and

3 ) Love Yourself.  This doesn't mean to be self-centered, but it means:

--brushing your teeth every day

--getting as much education as you can so you can provide for yourself

--be honest in one's dealings so one has a good reputation

--be frugal with one's money, to save for a rainy day

--eat healthy and exercise

--don't share your body sexually with those who would not value it

--avoid drugs, and use alcohol sparingly or not at all

 

So, did Noah's Ark and the Flood really happen, or is it figurative?

 

Does it matter?  Nowhere in the triad of love listed above should a parade of animals and a great deluge affect how I am living my life for God.

 

Was there really a Garden of Eden, or is it figurative?

 

Does it matter?  Nowhere in the triad of love listed above does a story about a magic tree and a talking snake affect how I am living my life day to day.

 

Did Jesus perform all of those miracles, or is it folk story?

 

Does it matter?  Nowhere in the triad of love listed above should I be doing anything different whether Jesus walked on water or whether he went skiing in the Himalayas.

 

Let me re-emphasize:

I am not intending any of the above to be offensive to others.  I know many take the bible literally, and I'm sure they have strong reason to do so.  I just don't see the point in getting bogged down in Bronze Age details when one either chooses to follow God today, here and now, by living in love, or not.

 

Oh, I am sooooo going to hell, aren't I?

 

[MistyMountain]

I'm an an INTJ and actually not only am I an INTJ I am just like you described strong in the IN always a T and weaker J but I usualy fall in that category. I do look at everything rationally and because of that I did end up an atheist even though I was born a Catholic. I go to a UU church now and members are of all different faiths and very accepting but at my congregation they don't talk religion much at all (I like that)

[WishboneDawn]

Thank you to all the respondents so far. :) It's late here so I'm off to bed but I've taken all your thoughts in and the mulling is commencing. :D I would love to hear from persons of any and all faith or spiritual view points and also from those whose journey led them away from any faith.

 

Could I ask another question? How did you (meaning the general "you") decide what belief system (or non-belief system) was right for you? Was it just a feeling? Was it by process of elimination? Was it cultural? Was it because of history? Or was it not really a decision?

 

Sorry - I guess that was more than one question... ;)

 

'Night, all. :)

Partly cultural. I'm Anglican and the church my mother grew up in (though I had a mostly secular childhood). Partly because it was what I feel into due to taking a course, EFM, offered by the Anglican church, had a friend who was the local minister,etc.

 

But what made me stay was that the Anglican church holds reason up with scripture and tradition. It's not sola scriptura so that tension Adventuremom described with needing the Bible to be always consistent and inerrant doesn't exist. In fact it was through that EFM course that I learned about textual criticism of the kind Bart Ehrman writes about.

[WishboneDawn]

Yup this is me. Though I don't really feel that I'm missing out. I tried to find faith, but just couldn't make it happen. Studied the bible thoroughly, but could never get past the obvious contradictions and fallacies. Learned fast and hard that one absolutely CANNOT discuss these things with Christians or you just offend everyone and lose friends. Members of other faiths do a little better but still it comes down to "you just have to believe". And I don't. So atheism it is.I'm also INTJ. strong on all four.

You haven't offended this Christian.

 

I spent a couple of years as one the few Christians on the old Internet Infidels atheist forums. That was trial by fire. :D It was a great place for discussion.

[AngelaNYC]

Thank you to all the respondents so far. :)  It's late here so I'm off to bed but I've taken all your thoughts in and the mulling is commencing. :D  I would love to hear from persons of any and all faith or spiritual view points and also from those whose journey led them away from any faith.

 

Could I ask another question?  How did you (meaning the general "you") decide what belief system (or non-belief system) was right for you?  Was it just a feeling?  Was it by process of elimination?  Was it cultural?  Was it because of history?  Or was it not really a decision?

 

Sorry - I guess that was more than one question... ;)

 

'Night, all. :)

 

I'm a cradle Catholic and an INTJ as well.  The older I get the more "into" my faith I get and the more I understand it.  My experiences and feelings all point to this being the right path for me.

[Laura Corin]

I'm also INTJ and I have always assumed that my personality type had a lot to do with my atheism.  

 

I hope you find peace.

 

L

[Parrothead]

 

Could I ask another question?

Sure

 

How did you (meaning the general "you") decide what belief system (or non-belief system) was right for you?

As a child I believed in the trinity. As an adult I was drawn to new age ideas and really looked at that for about 3 years. But I couldn't shake the Trinity. For a few years I tried to mesh the two but ultimately ended up where I started - Catholic

 

Was it just a feeling?

No, more of a logical conclusion

 

Was it by process of elimination?

Not really. I've always loved theology and the study of religion. There was only one place for me -Christianity.

 

Was it cultural?

No, as a military brat we moved a lot so there was no one culture I lived in until mid-teen years. My family culture was nominally Christian. We stopped going to church as a family when I was 7.

 

Was it because of history?

Logic based on historical fact is why I'm both Christian and Catholic

 

Or was it not really a decision?

Yes, I made a conscious decision.

 

I'll say this; for all my knowledge of and faith in the Church, like so many other Catholics, I don't agree 100% with all her teachings. But she is the most logical choice for me. If I didn't or couldn't belong to the RCC, I'd be EO. If neither of those were available I'd just not attend anywhere.

[Greta]

I am in INTJ as well but I never thought about how that might relate to my faith journey before.  Interesting thing to ponder.  My journey has been pretty convoluted but I have found my way home.  I was raised in a, hmmm, I'm trying to think how to say this without sounding like I'm overreacting, and still get the point across....  I was raised in a pseudo-Christian, but spiritually abusive religion.  I rejected it at age 16.  After that, my rational tendencies said that this jerk of a God that I was taught to believe in was an obvious fabrication invented by men for their own purposes, so I became an atheist (yes, it was a baby with the bathwater kind of thing).  I stayed an atheist for many years, and I was very bitter and angry towards Christianity, not understanding that the religion I was raised in really didn't represent Christianity at all.  I pursued Buddhism for several years, because I was drawn to the compassion teachings, and the fact that it didn't require me to believe in God.  But gradually, over the course of years, I started having this nagging feeling that something was missing.

 

And then I started having these experiences of breaking down crying when I would read or hear something that Jesus Christ said.  Rational, logical, atheistic ME would become a blubbering idiot whenever Christ was quoted.  What the heck??? 

 

In an effort to make a long story short, I'll skip to the part where I took communion (for the first time in my life, because the religion I was raised in doesn't permit it) at a very liberal, open kind of church.  It was a life-changing experience.  I felt that God was speaking to me through that, extending an invitation, so to speak.  But that church only offers communion once a year, and that felt . . . insufficient, I guess.  So I started reading everything I could find in the Bible about communion, and I asked God to show me what he wanted me to do.

 

Immediately, He answered my prayer.  There was a discussion going on here on these very boards where a couple of Orthodox Christian ladies said something that just zapped me.  Seriously, my only knowledge of the Orthodox Church prior to that was from the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding.   :lol:  But things just started falling into place.  I was scared, but at the same time, I really felt like God was reaching out to me through people here and where I live to welcome me into the church.  And so, that's where I am.

 

You asked how I decided.  I'm not sure that I did.  I think the only part of the decision that was really mine was when I asked Him for help (with the profound feeling that I was lost, and wasn't going to find my way by myself, and desperately needed Him).  After that, it was just a matter of following where He led.

 

I wish I could tell you that I've been totally doubt-free since then, but my doubts and my tendencies toward skepticism still crop up at times.  I don't always "feel it", feel filled with faith, but in obedience I try to keep chugging along.  I am certain this is where God wants me to be.  The rewards are there, but they're not always warm fuzzy feelings, you know?  I find that when I keep pushing through a time of doubt, I emerge a little bit stronger on the other side.

 

Well, I don't know if that's been helpful at all, but your post really spoke to me, so I wanted to say something in reply!  :grouphug:

 

 

[WishboneDawn]

I'm also INTJ and I have always assumed that my personality type had a lot to do with my atheism.

 

I hope you find peace.

 

L

Speaking of the Internet Infidels, there was once a thread asking what personality type people were and it was startling to see how many atheists were exactly your personally type. I think your idea has some validity.

[livetoread]

I am an INTP. After having a Christian faith for most of my life, I started questioning and reading. I'm not sure when I stopped believing, but I chose to keep believing anyway for several years. I tried really hard but finally acknowledged that I couldn't choose to believe when I didn't any more than I could chose to believe the sky is brown. I figure now that if there is some sort of deity that cares whether I acknowledge its presence, it will figure out a way to make that happen that will make sense to me. Right now, rationally, I think it very unlikely that there is a theistic, loving god.

[SailorMom]

For reference - I'm an INFJ.

I searched for years to find a way to make Christianity work for me.  I finally realized that... I'm not a Christian after all :)

But - I do believe in God. Well - I believe in a higher power, or something bigger than us that is universal.  I don't think we can properly comprehend it because our little animal brains aren't capable (reading Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions is great for explaining that idea....)

Read The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine and look into Deism.  Paine can be a little more insulting to Christians than I think is necessary, so take that in to consideration.  Most modern deists believe that most paths are valid ones, everyone needs to find their own path, and as long as your path isn't hurting anyone, it's fine.  Kinda like the Libertarianism of religion, lol.

[Carrie12345]

I'm an INTJ, raised in the Lutheran (ELCA) church, but always an atheist. No advice here!

[HomeschoolMamaOfTwo]

INFJ here, and atheist.  I was raised Lutheran, and really WANTED and tried my hardest to believe but I just can't make myself, it just isn't there and the more I tried the further I got from it.

[amy58103]

It never accrued to me that your personality type might influence whether you have faith or not.  That's really interesting!!

 

By its definition, I don't think you can have "certainty" in faith.  At least, not what you are looking for.  You choose your faith, or you are given your faith, or you accept your faith.  So, no real help, but some questions for you to consider:

 

Why do you want to believe?

 

What happens if you come to the conclusion that you don't believe?

[Laura Corin]

Speaking of the Internet Infidels, there was once a thread asking what personality type people were and it was startling to see how many atheists were exactly your personally type. I think your idea has some validity.

 

An unusual number of home educators on this board are also INTJ - it's a fairly rare group in the population, but much more common here.  I don't know what that means.

 

L

[Parrothead]

An unusual number of home educators on this board are also INTJ - it's a fairly rare group in the population, but much more common here. I don't know what that means.

 

L

I wonder if it the homeschooling or the style of homeschooling. It would be interesting to see what style of homeschooling is most popular with us.

[TracyP]

OP, I am in the same situation, so I have no btdt story to tell. I am also an INTJ, and I think it is very hard to be rational and keep your faith. That is not to say that you (or I) should give up your faith. That is a personal decision, and it is called 'faith' for a reason, right? But I have had to throw out a lot of my former beliefs as I came to a point where I could just not look at the blue sky and call it brown (as pp stated) anymore. I am still holding on to some core beliefs, but as I lose another and another, I wonder where it is going to end. I want to hold on to my faith. It brought me an enormous sense of peace back before I started studying it. I still want to feel that peace so I will keep holding on for now.

[Dicentra]

Thank you again for all the responses and for the willingness to share in a public forum. :)  I've taken note of all the suggestions for books, readings, and videos and will work my way through them.  I've also taken in all the shared stories and experiences and they'll become part of my mulling process. :D  I'm not one to "talk things out" but more to think and think and then a while later come out with my thoughts so if I don't reply to each post, please don't think I didn't like it or it wasn't important to me!

 

I was surprised at how many of you are INTJs - I wasn't expecting that!  I have done some Googling and it seems as though most INTJs are either atheist, agnostic, or UU.  Again - I don't want to place a degree of importance on the MBTI that it doesn't warrant but it does give me something else to add to the mulling.

 

A PP asked if I had taken one of the belief quizzes.  I did take one a little while back.  My results were (if I remember correctly):

1. atheist/agnostic

2. UU

3. Reformed Judaism (which surprised me greatly!)

4. Reformed Quakerism

 

To further clarify, I think what I'm struggling with right now is what I call faith, not with religion.  To me, faith is an internal belief system.  Religion is the external trappings of that belief system.  Does that make sense?  If I don't know whether or not I believe in a deity, it's pretty tough for me to pick a system of how to worship one.  If I don't know whether I believe that Christ existed, was the Son of God, and died for my sins, it's kind of "putting the cart before the horse" to try to decide on a particular Christian denomination.  Once I get my faith (or non-faith) sorted out, then I can think about religion (or non-religion).

 

I tend to solve problems by going back to "square one" and then moving forward from there, so that's what I've done with my faith problem.  If I distill everything down to two questions, then (for me) it comes down to this:

Does a supernatural (meaning outside the natural world) deity exist?  Even if I can't find irrefutable proof one way or the other, can I find enough evidence (whatever that might mean to me) to be fairly certain one way or the other?

 

A PP was wondering what I meant by certainty.  I don't use the word to mean "absolutely sure" (although I'm probably not using the word correctly, in that case ;)) - I guess I meant "fairly certain".  I'm assuming that most people, when asked about what they believe (or don't believe), would say that they're fairly certain that what they believe (or don't believe) is correct - otherwise why would they believe (or not believe) it?  They might not have irrefutable proof that they're correct, but they have a relatively high degree of certainty.  That's what I'm looking for.  For me, I think peace will come if I can get to the point of "fairly certain" about what I choose to believe (or not believe).  I hope I will always still have questions and still want to be reading and searching because I think questions are what makes life interesting but I would like to come to that place of "fairly certain" and then go out a-questioning from there. :)

 

As I said above, I've taken note of everyone's suggestions in the thread.  This is a list of the books that I've either read, are currently reading, or have at home and intend to read soon:

The Evolution of Adam by Peter Enns

The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel

Imagination and Spirit: A Contemporary Quaker Reader edited by J. Brent Bill

The Plain Reader: Essays on Making a Simple Life edited by Scott Savage

Plain Living: A Quaker Path to Simplicity written and collected by Catherine Whitmire

The Quaker Reader selected by Jessamyn West

The Oxford Authorized KJV Bible with Apocrypha

The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

The Dawkins Delusion by Alister and Joanna McGrath

The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan

The God Argument: The Case Against Religion and For Humanism by A. C. Grayling

The Language of God by Francis S. Collins

Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis

The Language of Science and Faith by Karl W. Giberson and Francis S. Collins

 

This is a list of books that I currently have out of the library and have been glancing through.  The only one I've started actually reading is "I Don't Believe in Atheists" by Chris Hedges but if any of the others strike me as helpful, they'll get a read as well.

I Don't Believe in Atheists by Chris Hedges

Divinity of Doubt by Vincent Bugliosi

The Evolution of God by Robert Wright

God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens

Tomorrow's God by Neale Donald Walsch

The World As It Is by Chris Hedges

 

If anyone has any suggestions that I haven't listed above or haven't been mentioned in the thread already, I'd love to hear about them.  In looking at my lists, I realize they do tend to be heavier on the atheist/agnostic side of things but I think that's because I tend to find most theist books very "touchy-feely" (KWIM?) and that turns me off almost immediately.

 

It would be interesting to do a poll on the forum that looks at posters' Myers-Briggs type, religious/faith affiliation (or non-affiliation), and their most prominent method of homeschooling just to see how the numbers play out.  I don't know how to do that, though. :(  If someone else does, I think it would be great fun. :)

[MistyMountain]

Could I ask another question? How did you (meaning the general "you") decide what belief system (or non-belief system) was right for you? Was it just a feeling? Was it by process of elimination? Was it cultural? Was it because of history? Or was it not really a decision?

 

Sorry - I guess that was more than one question... ;)

 

'Night, all. :)

 

 

 

I don't have the ability to quote anymore otherwise I would have quoted. I always had questions and doubt but it took a while to make the push to be atheist. What especially was hard was that if you don't believe then you are going to hell. For me that made it hard because I wasn't sure and I rather err on the side of caution. It was just a realization over time and I only became more certain over time. The first push was a long discussion with a friend who was an atheist when I was starting to go that way myself. When I finally identified as one I never changed. I have done research on religion and atheism. It isn't a feeling just a rational conclusion I came to. I think there is some historical stuff that did occur in the bible. It is a mix of history and myth. I don't believe there is a higher power who has the rules set forth in the bible. It is something I just know. I wasn't traumatized by my upbringing. When I was growing up in it there were parts that bothered me but for the most part I am very accepting of others beliefs. Contrary to popular belief I am very moral and think in terms of the greater good for everything. I think humans are the cause of the problems in the world and humans could solve them. Bad things happen because some people are born without a conscious and a lot of people are just neutral and heavily influenced and can be influenced by things like a bad upbringing or bad social or cultural influences. I believe in evolution but that isn't something I think about much.

[Dicentra]

Speaking of the Internet Infidels, there was once a thread asking what personality type people were and it was startling to see how many atheists were exactly your personally type. I think your idea has some validity.

 

Dawn -

Do you happen to know which thread it was or have a link?  I did a forum search for "MBTI" and came up with a number of threads but I didn't know which one was the "main" one.  Or even if there was a "main" one. :)

[albeto.]

 

Could I ask another question?  How did you (meaning the general "you") decide what belief system (or non-belief system) was right for you?  Was it just a feeling?  Was it by process of elimination?  Was it cultural?  Was it because of history?  Or was it not really a decision?

 

For me, it started with the idea of sin. I had already accepted the fact that there was no talking serpent, no Tower of Babel, no 40 years wandering in the desert, and I could accept rejecting other, similar historical claims. However, the more I understood how and why people react the way in which they do, the less the argument of sin made sense. Sin is at the heart of the faith because it's what redemption and salvation are based upon. Looking at the other claims of the faith in the same way, objectively, critically, I saw they all fell short, but still religions encourage belief against all the evidence to the contrary. It was the recognition that I no longer desired to believe for the sake of belief. I thought to myself, what's the worst that could happen if I didn't believe? What was faith doing for me if it wasn't based on real things, and could I get that elsewhere? 

[MistyMountain]

Some book suggestions are Atheism the Case Against God. and The Miracle of Theism: Arguments For and Against the Existence of God and What is Atheism

 

These are obviously one sided but you got a lot of examples from the other side. ;) You have read quite a lot so far on the topic from both sides which is very cool.

[Rosie_0801]

You might like this too: http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Hunger-Integrating-Ritual-Daily/dp/1844095606

It's written by an Englishman who has lived in the US. The English don't do touchy feely. :p

[albeto.]

I tend to solve problems by going back to "square one" and then moving forward from there, so that's what I've done with my faith problem.  If I distill everything down to two questions, then (for me) it comes down to this:

Does a supernatural (meaning outside the natural world) deity exist?  Even if I can't find irrefutable proof one way or the other, can I find enough evidence (whatever that might mean to me) to be fairly certain one way or the other?

If there is no evidence to support such an idea, why would you go ahead and believe such an idea anyway? Why not accept the claims of Scientology, or Jainism, or astrology? If these claims are rejected because there is no evidence, why the double standard with regard to a supernatural entity?

 

 

If anyone has any suggestions that I haven't listed above or haven't been mentioned in the thread already, I'd love to hear about them.

The God Virus

Letter to a Christian Nation

God is Not Great

God is Imaginary

[livetoread]

The Believing Brain by Michael Shermer is interesting. It's not as snarky as the title sounds - just interesting. It looks at all sorts of beliefs and why we hold them, not just religious ones.