Church youth group, my kids are having to write papers??

[Prairie~Phlox]

Ok, they used to really enjoy youth group, a young couple has taught it for years. Recently they've started making the kids write papers and turn in every week. I don't check that my kids are doing it, but I do know they aren't enjoying it. I'm not sure how I feel, I do think being desciplined in something is good, but I also want my kids to enjoy going to youth group. My boys are not strong writers to start. Does he think this will help the kids grow closer to the Lord? Would you say anything to thd head pastor? They were talking with my friend today, who is the mom of the youth pastor and there is a chance that she would bring it up to her son in a loving way, especially if I asked her to. Any advice? We are talking 8 year olds-~16.

[jewellsmommy]

I would go to the leader/s (young couple) and ask what the plan is, what is the purpose of the papers; not in a snarky or defensive way, just a conversation. I would inform them that your dc are not strong writers but that they are trying and not enjoying the process. Let them know that you want to be supportive but you also don't want your dc to dread church as just some sort of busywork.

 

Hopefully they will be able to bring you in on the big picture in a satisfactory way or they will be enlightened to a potential problem that they didn't know existed. Good luck. :001_smile:

 

 

ETA: I should have mentioned, my advice comes from the perspective of someone who has led both youth and children's ministries for many years. I would completely welcome a conversation, a civil meeting of the minds, with a concerned parent. Sadly, they were few and far between. I either had parents that had no idea what was going on with their kids or I had parents that would simply stop me in the hallway, yell something at me and stomp off. If theses are decent, godly people they will hear you out.

[Whereneverever]

Am I correctly reading that the youth group is a span from 8-16? I think there's a huge disparity between what kids of those ages are capable of. And I have never heard of a youth group requiring weekly papers.

[Starr]

I would want to know what my kids were writing and turning in. Are these faith based writings?

[Prairie~Phlox]

Yes, they are faith based. It's a small church with ~ 15 kids that are 8-16 together for youth group.

[jewellsmommy]

Yes, they are faith based. It's a small church with ~ 15 kids that are 8-16 together for youth group.

 

Are there penalties for not writing the papers or are there rewards for turning them in? Are there length requirements? Are they corrected or graded in some way? Just curious about the details.

[Prairie~Phlox]

I know if they miss, they have to turn it in the next week with what is due. No rewards that I know of. Length requirements yes, used to be just a few paragraphs. They said they have a three page essay due this week. Not sure about grading/corrections.

[jewellsmommy]

I know if they miss, they have to turn it in the next week with what is due. No rewards that I know of. Length requirements yes, used to be just a few paragraphs. They said they have a three page essay due this week. Not sure about grading/corrections.

 

Well, I would say a conversation with the leadership is definitely in order.

[Starr]

I think the parents should always know what's being taught and what is expected. A parent meeting of inquiry would be helpful. I'm not a fan of keeping parents out of things. 3 pages for an 8 year old, really.

[chiguirre]

I know if they miss, they have to turn it in the next week with what is due. No rewards that I know of. Length requirements yes, used to be just a few paragraphs. They said they have a three page essay due this week. Not sure about grading/corrections.

So, is this something like Confirmation prep for Catholics which does have some academic requirements (although nowhere near this stringent) or just something someone thought was a great idea? That seems like a lot of work for something that should be inviting for kids. I'd definitely say something to the leaders or allow my kids to quit something that's turned into a fairly rigorous course that we didn't sign up for.

[kentuckymom]

Yeah, I would say a polite conversation with the leaders about the purpose of the papers and how they're affecting your kids' enjoyment of the youth group is definitely in order. That just seems extremely weird to me. I did have to write one paper on part of the catechism and present it when I was confirmed, but that was a grand total of one paper, and the church I grew up in doesn't even do that anymore. I'm just confused as to why these papers are being required in the first place.

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm surprised the youth group leader didn't feel compelled to explain this to the parents beforehand because that's waaay out of the norm.  Is your youth leader not in the habit of discussing approach, method, philosophy, plans, policies and like with parents before starting the job and regularly doing so after being in the job?  If not, that's where I'd start my conversation with church leadership and then use that as an example. I would also question any biblical precedent for anyone in the Bible having ever taught the gospel this way.

 

Years ago my husband and I, who had young elementary aged kids at the time, were attending a church where parents pressured the youth leader and leadership into a works based mentality.  Only the kids that attended regularly and helped at work days were allowed to do fun youth group stuff.  We found out when they announced it to the church because we weren't at the parent meeting due to the age of our kids.  When we met with the youth pastor privately and pointed out the inconsistency of that approach with the doctrines of grace and agape love to others expecting nothing in return, he was genuinely ashamed and repentant and put an end to it immediately even though other parents were upset their kids weren't going to get their metaphorical gold stars. We were calm and logical even though we were appalled that professing Christians in leadership roles needed something so obvious explained to them.

 

I don't know if that attitude is underlying in your situation or not.  It may just be a good intentioned attempt to teach doctrine in a more academic way or something perfectly harmless.  But we always have to be on our guard and leadership needs to be reminded that they are accountable not only to God but to their congregations as well.

[elegantlion]

A 3 page essay? Was this for all age groups? Sorry, I think that's out of line for any age unless they're working toward something which requires it. I have a son with writing delays, he couldn't do a 3 page essay last year, this is not something I'd really want to discuss with the youth leader either, you know. 

 

I would have a polite conversation and not require my son to do it. 

[ChristusG]

I'd be chatting with the leader. Youth group isn't supposed to be school.

[ThisIsTheDay]

I would have a polite conversation and not require my son to do it. 

 

This.

[gardenmom5]

a one size fit's all requirement for ages 8 - 16 is a bit much.  That's not even taking into account different ability of same age children.  my 8yo couldn't do a three page paper, nor even a three paragraph paper.  He's uncomfortable enough that his reading ability is different from the kids his age at church because of a learning disability and aspergers - but to have something like that that only reinforces it . . .

 

definitely discuss this.

[LucyStoner]

Weirdness.  In a childhood filled to the breaking point with Sunday school, catechism classes, youth group and church camp, I was never asked to write a single paper, much less a weekly one.  I kept a lot of notes and journals on religion but that was my own doing, not a youth group requirement.  

[Little Nyssa]

I don't think papers belong in youth group.

I would talk to the leader personally-- not rely on a conversation his mom might or might not have with him.

[JessReplanted]

Just ask the leaders about it. They could be doing some kind of project where they want to see what the kids actually believe - so they can direct their teaching in the right way. You won't know what's going on until you ask.

[Cinder]

I know if they miss, they have to turn it in the next week with what is due.

 

What happens if they don't turn in the papers at all? Ever? Are they asked to leave the youth group?

 

I would want to know the purpose for the papers. I don't think it's reasonable to have the kids writing 3-page essays for youth group. A paragraph, a few sentences on a particular topic done during group meetings would be fine. Not to be collected by the leaders, though; just for the individual to be able to think through that topic and refer back to during the discussion. JMHO.

[Tammyla]

I would definitely have a discussion with the leadership.  I can't imagine an 8 y/old writing 3 page essays for youth group, nor can I imagine many older kids enjoying a yg with so much written homework.

[Halftime Hope]

We have a missions study group for the teen girls which is run very, very well.  The leaders put in a tremendous amount of work preparing for it, teaching it, doing hands on with the girls, etc.  Each year they decorate their fabric-covered notebooks and then they have a 4 (or 5?) project completion requirement over the course of the year.  Two of those project require essays.  In order to go on the spring break missions trip, the requirements must be completed by a certain deadline.

 

However, this missions group is optional, it isn't youth group.  And the requirements are clearly spelled out.  And the essays are done at each girls' own ability level.  (Parents were asked to look over the essays and give their stamp of approval before they were turned in.) 

 

(Side note:  surprised me that when my dd was in 8th grade, one of the leaders approached me and commented on the maturity of dd's writing compared with her peers.  I had no idea, because to my eyes, dd's writing still left a lot to be desired.)

[Seasider]

What I really want to know is, who in the heck has time to grade all those papers?

[Harriet Vane]

This isn't a moral issue, but rather a communication issue.

 

I think it's fine to write papers for church. I get frustrated with the lack of expectation for more active participation, for more active intellectual engagement, at church.

 

I also think it's fine not to write papers for church.

 

Sounds like you are unclear about the purpose of the paper or their usefulness. You need to chat with the youth leader. Go in to this conversation assuming that the leader is doing his/her best to teach and guide these kids. Try to understand his/her perspective. Then, and only then, make a decision about whether or not this activity is something beneficial for your own children.

 

Maybe there is a benefit for them, or maybe it's best to not have this requirement. You can only evaluate that question with better information.

 

If you weren't told ahead of time that there would be assignments, it is valid to ask the youth leader to discuss such things with parents first before imposing extra work requirements.

[Prairie~Phlox]

Thanks, I spoke with our pastor today. He's going to talk tonhis kids (5 of them are in youth group), my three, another family that has 2 and then a few extras that usually come. I just wanted to bring it to his attention that the kids were not enjoying it and dreading on going during the week.

[sassenach]

Thanks, I spoke with our pastor today. He's going to talk tonhis kids (5 of them are in youth group), my three, another family that has 2 and then a few extras that usually come. I just wanted to bring it to his attention that the kids were not enjoying it and dreading on going during the week.

I have to say, it's really too bad you didn't go directly to the leaders. I think you missed an opportunity to both build your relationship by honoring them with a direct conversation AND have your concerns addressed.

 

I agree, the paper writing requirement is a little too gung ho, but at least it's in the direction of discipline. It bums me out that the body never seems to think that Matt 18 applies to youth leaders.

[Harriet Vane]

I, too, am disappointed that you did not speak with the youth pastor. Your post does not indicate that he did anything that requires reporting him to his boss, and you did not give him the courtesy of a direct conversation. You also did not give him the chance to hear your feedback and try to work with you on a good solution.

[Prairie~Phlox]

I am normally very outspoken in our church, but in this case I didn't want to feel like I was trying to rock the boat. I felt that I could only back what my kids felt, but it needed to be what all of the kids felt. really the youth leader is young (23) and I felt it would be better handled by our pastor. He hasn't even said anything yet and I would be surprised if anything is said soon. It may come down to my daughter saying something to the youth pastor. She's 15 and the pastors daughter and her were talking about doing that. Originally I wasn't going to get involved at all.

[Harriet Vane]

I am genuinely not trying to be combative.

 

I am puzzled, though, why you would see your actions as "not rocking the boat?" Talking to the pastor = reporting him to his boss.

 

I still don't see what harm there could be in having a simple conversation with this young youth pastor. I do, however, see lots of harm in reporting him to his supervisor.

[HS Mom in NC]

I am genuinely not trying to be combative.

 

I am puzzled, though, why you would see your actions as "not rocking the boat?" Talking to the pastor = reporting him to his boss.

 

I still don't see what harm there could be in having a simple conversation with this young youth pastor. I do, however, see lots of harm in reporting him to his supervisor.

 

Depending on how a each church operates, it can be perfectly acceptable to talk to the senior pastor first.  Without detailed, first hand knowledge of how authority and policies (church constitutions and culture) are perceived and practiced in a specific congregation or denomination different than yours and the personal nature of the relationships the OP has to the Sr. pastor compared to the youth leaders, it's best not to assume anything-like that talking to the senior pastor is the same as reporting him to his boss.  Best to stick to asking questions about how things are usually handled and why at the OP's church.

 

Christian denominations and individual congregations can be like different planets.  Just read on up long threads here where all variations of Christians respond to the same post.  It's very enlightening and a great reminder that things can be VERY VERY different from one place to another.

[Erin]

This is true, but as with anything else, if you have a question regarding someone's methods, you usually should go right to the source...

[Catwoman]

I thought youth groups were supposed to be fun, not school.

 

I think it's ridiculous to ask the kids to write papers every week -- or even occasionally -- if this group doesn't have a specific educational focus.

 

Personally, I would suspect that quite a few parents will let their kids drop out of the group if this requirement continues. It seems way out of line to me.

[Parrothead]

Yeah, I'd tell my kid not to do it. We don't have time for extra academics. If it was a problem that my kid wasn't doing it, I'd pull her out.

 

My good friend is the youth group leader in our parish. She is also a homeschooling mom of six. It would be fun to watch her twitch if I suggested she require academic 3 page papers from the youth. Especially since she will have three of her own in youth group this fall. LOL.

[Harriet Vane]

Depending on how a each church operates, it can be perfectly acceptable to talk to the senior pastor first.  Without detailed, first hand knowledge of how authority and policies (church constitutions and culture) are perceived and practiced in a specific congregation or denomination different than yours and the personal nature of the relationships the OP has to the Sr. pastor compared to the youth leaders, it's best not to assume anything-like that talking to the senior pastor is the same as reporting him to his boss.  Best to stick to asking questions about how things are usually handled and why at the OP's church.

 

Christian denominations and individual congregations can be like different planets.  Just read on up long threads here where all variations of Christians respond to the same post.  It's very enlightening and a great reminder that things can be VERY VERY different from one place to another.

 

Yes, it is definitely true that there is a wide variety of policies and practices. In my childhood and young adulthood, I moved quite a bit and as a result was involved in quite the cross-section of churches. I grew up in a generic "Bible church." Also, I grew up with a devout, Roman Catholic grandma and went to Mass and various church events with her over many years. In my high school and college years I spent significant amounts of time in churches from the Episcopal, Assemblies of God, and Alliance denominations. As an adult, my most recent church experience has been with Evangelical Free (2 yrs). Also as an adult I spent fourteen years in two African-American churches (one EV Free and one Baptist for seven years each). I served in leadership directing the Sunday School programs in both of the AA churches. I also have close, personal friends who are youth leaders or have been in the past, as well as other friends in other leadership positions. That's just to give you my context.

 

While many might consider it perfectly acceptable to go over the youth pastor's head to talk to the senior pastor, I have never known any youth pastor who liked being talked about behind their back. Even if it is considered acceptable in a church setting to do so (and frankly, in most church settings it is accepted as such), the youth pastor is still left wondering why people cannot just talk as people together. And people do not realize that sometimes those chats with the senior pastor do have direct repercussions on the youth pastor--repercussions that are never, ever public, but hurt all the same.

 

Either way, though--it's really not nice to have a problem with someone and not give them the benefit of a conversation before discussing it with others.

[Garga]

Whenever humanly possible, always go to the actual source of the problem.  I would NOT go to the head pastor.  I would NOT go to the youth leader's mother.  

 

I will try not to take out my frustration on you, OP, but I do not understand why people who have a problem with something in the church will go to every other person in the church except the one they have the problem with!  Ugh!  Personal pet peeve.

 

So with that off my chest, go directly to the youth leaders.  Ask them why the kids have to write and tell them how much your kids detest writing.  Once you have the details from the horse's mouth, then decide how to proceed from there.  We can speculate until the cows come home about what's going on and why they're doing it, but it's much better to just ask them.

 

ETA:  Just read how you went over the youth leader's head to the pastor.  At 23 he's a full grown man who can have a conversation with you about his teaching methods.  You shouldn't have treated him like a child and told on him.  

 

Also, the head pastor isn't you and won't feel/say the exact thing YOU would say, so the issue might not get resolved the way you would expect/hope at all. 

[Renthead Mommy]

I can totally see talking to the main pastor before the youth pastor.  He's one of the parents of the kids in the group. The group only has 15 kids.  5 of them belong to the pastor, so his make up 1/3 of the entire group.  It's a parent to parent thing.

[Erin]

 

 

While many might consider it perfectly acceptable to go over the youth pastor's head to talk to the senior pastor, I have never known any youth pastor who liked being talked about behind their back. Even if it is considered acceptable in a church setting to do so (and frankly, in most church settings it is accepted as such), the youth pastor is still left wondering why people cannot just talk as people together.

I agree. 

This is the kind of thing that creates lasting hard feelings, too.  

 

I'm sure you didn't even consider all of these implications, Prairie, but I'm going to guess many of us have been on the other side of this issue which is why you're seeing this perspective.  

Just talk to the kid.

[sassenach]

I can totally see talking to the main pastor before the youth pastor. He's one of the parents of the kids in the group. The group only has 15 kids. 5 of them belong to the pastor, so his make up 1/3 of the entire group. It's a parent to parent thing.

I think the biblical word for talking about a problem you have with other people (even if they are parents or pastors) before talking to the people themselves is gossip.

 

Forget denominational differences. The Bible, the very word of God, tells us to go directly to the person. I'm not seeing how that's debatable. Nowhere does it say, "Take all of your problems to your pastor." Frankly, this is a fail on the pastor's end, too. When someone complains to my husband about another person, the very first thing he asks is if they have spoken directly to that person. If not, he advises them to do that first.

 

Prairie, I'm sorry if you feel piled on. At this point I'm debating the idea rather than laying into your actions. I do think you have time to correct this by going to the leaders and apologizing for not coming to them first. We all make mistakes.

[Renthead Mommy]

I think the biblical word for talking about a problem you have with other people (even if they are parents or pastors) before talking to the people themselves is gossip.

 

Forget denominational differences. The Bible, the very word of God, tells us to go directly to the person. I'm not seeing how that's debatable. Nowhere does it say, "Take all of your problems to your pastor." Frankly, this is a fail on the pastor's end, too. When someone complains to my husband about another person, the very first thing he asks is if they have spoken directly to that person. If not, he advises them to do that first.

 

Prairie, I'm sorry if you feel piled on. At this point I'm debating the idea rather than laying into your actions. I do think you have time to correct this by going to the leaders and apologizing for not coming to them first. We all make mistakes.

 

 

So your kids, and your friend's kid, are both doing an activity together.  Your kids are having an issue.  You go to your friend to find out if her kids are having the same issue.    That's not gossiping, that is parenting.  The guy is a parent before he's the minister.  

[Murphy101]

So your kids, and your friend's kid, are both doing an activity together. Your kids are having an issue. You go to your friend to find out if her kids are having the same issue. That's not gossiping, that is parenting. The guy is a parent before he's the minister.

I agree. That aside, it's the job of the youth minister to clearly communicate what is going on with the youth to the parents. If he had done that to start with, there likely wouldn't be an issue to begin with.

 

And I don't consider speaking to his boss to be all that awful a thing. Not everyone wants to be stuck out on the limb. I suppose if he was fired over it, that'd be pretty awful. But I think it is perfectly acceptable to keep the shepherd aware if what his flock is doing. It's his job to redirect them, not leave them to direct each other.

[Erin]

And yet, that's not Biblical...