When is behind "really" behind?

[shinyhappypeople]

This image seems particularly appropriate to this thread: "Never discourage anyone who makes continual progress, no matter how slow."

 

This.is.not.a.race.

 

We don't expect every 8 year old to have the same shoe size, interests or athletic ability. Why do we expect them all to be at the same place academically?

 

I've had to seriously deschool my thinking in this area with regard to my "behind" older DD.

 

However, I'm learning that slow and steady, step by step, we'll get where we need to go. This isn't a race, this isn't a competition. This is about meeting kids where they are, one child at a time. If I wanted to package and label her like a side of beef (grade B for behind?), I'd just put her in school.

[Dmmetler]

I think it may depend on your definition of "Behind".

 

I have two definitions

 

1) Below the state's expectations for that given age. I consider being "behind" state standards no big deal until about 3rd grade because my state asks a lot in K/1 that many neurotypical kids simply aren't quite ready for yet at age 5/6, but usually pick up on easily at age 7, but after about 3rd grade I would be very concerned about a homeschooled student with no diagnosed disability who couldn't walk in and meet the state's expectations on our state's test in math and reading (I'll give Social Studies and Science a bye because they're so far out of sync with what most homeschool curricula teach, and I consider the sequence done by most homeschoolers to be preferable and better done.)

 

2) When the child is struggling with what THEY want to do. My DD wasn't chronologically behind at age 3 when she wanted to write, but couldn't get the letters to work the way she wanted them to. But she was still frustrated and melting down regularly because she so wanted to do this and couldn't. So, we got Handwriting without tears and worked through it, plus gave her lots of other ways to "write". Not because she really NEEDED to learn to write at age 3-but because she was "behind" where SHE wanted to be. There have been a few other areas, pretty much anything requiring significant motor skills, where DD has been typical or at the low end of normal in her development, but far enough out of sync with what SHE wanted to do-or what the kids she was spending time with were doing, that she was uncomfortable and was struggling. And in those cases, she needs help to get those skills and get over that hump.

[Jenny in GA]

I thought that, by definition, "on grade level" was the 50th percentile?

 

I never understood that. I thought 50th percentile meant [roughly] "average compared to everybody else."

But if a considerable percentage of "everybody else" is performing poorly, I'm not sure if 50th percentile is on grade level ...?

[Susan C.]

I'll just put it all out there like I did my friend. I want to know if I'm messing my kids up!

 

We are 8 and in 3rd grade.

 

My boys both read well. We are in Phonics Road 2 so behind in language arts spelling/composition. This was intentional on my part. I didn't think my boys were ready for the writing intensity of later levels but I wanted the Phonics Road approach so I delayed and went slowly. I know we don't match public school kids in writing or spelling. I have a naturally good speller and a struggler. We have done very little composition beyond sentences and extremely simple guided paragraphs. There has been very little grammar instruction so far in the program. What we have done is quite basic.

 

I have switched math curriculum more than once and went back to the beginning each time I switch. This was because what I used originally wasn't working for one child and finding what would work took some time. I didn't want gaps so I would start at the beginning with a switch.

 

So we are a bit past 1/2 way through 2nd grade math with a Singapore type approach (Math in Focus). They completed through 1/2 of RightStart C so we have a smattering of skills in other ways. They have been exposed to division but one particularly just isn't getting it solidly. I hope that will come in time. I suspect one child would test well ahead of where he really is, textbook wise, in math. The other probably would test 2nd grade. I'm thinking of parking a little and working on multiplication and division concepts with c-rods to see if it helps my struggling one. But then he'll be that much more behind in the text. My inclination in the past has always been quality over quantity so I would have stopped. Now I don't know what to do.

 

The other thing is me. We school year round and often on Saturdays. So I tend to be very flexible with our schedule figuring it will all even out eventually. For example we have something in the morning tomorrow and I know we probably won't get much if any school done. This has never bothered me but maybe it should? Maybe I'm too relaxed.

 

I don't have time to read all the responses, so I may edit when I do. By any chance do the boys have a summer birthday, making them young 3rd graders? We experienced that, in hindsight, it would have been better to repeat a grade. All of what is above screams "they are in 2nd grade" to me. I do have more experience my daughter, she was quite behind in 3rd grade, but was older in her grade. She did catch it all up when her skills came up to speed. But with my son (summer birthday) he kept hitting the wall year after year. He got good grades, but everything was a struggle all the time. I ended up adding a year of high school. It would have been better to have made 3rd grade 2nd, then all of that frustration wouldn't have happened.

 

I'll try to remember to read and post more, but I have to go!

[momto2Cs]

I can't specify a time when it becomes a problem, and I hesitated in even replying to this thread, but thought I would share my experiences.

 

Dd9 does not read well or fluently. This is due to a combination of factors, one being that she had NO interest in reading until recently. Combine that with unschooling, and well, she doesn't read well. However, since she developed a vested interest in reading (park days with game playing pals), she is making steady progress. It helps of course that I am making more of an effort to support that interest, and we do reading practice daily. I have next-to-no doubts that she will catch up on this relatively quickly. She's ahead in comprehension, her vocabulary is excellent, and she does well in science and math, all of which has allowed me to relax a little and NOT freak out that she doesn't read well.

 

Ds11 is technically, by the number of years we have homeschooled, in 6th grade. He's doing mid 5th grade math, and I am remediating him in spelling (he spells very phonetically). He reads a ton though, loves science with a passion, and is starting to write more and more - volume of writing has definitely picked up, and he's writing more complex pieces. In math, I think we'll be "caught up" by the end of the year.

 

I would say, based on personal experience and what I have seen in other homeschooled kids, that if there has to be catch-up work done, I would aim to have everything in place by the end of middle school so that they can approach high school with all the needed skills in place.

[EKS]

I'm assuming you mean in the context of continuing to homeschool, so I voted for middle school, as you would probably want to remediate any weaknesses prior to high school. If there is a possibility of putting the kid in question in school in the near future, then it is an immediate concern.

[FaithManor]

You bet, I'm happy to explain more. But I do want to preface this post by saying that I am NOT in any way referring to anyone in this thread or on this board or passing judgement on the homeschooling methods of anyone on this board. I don't know anybody here well enough to know how you homeschool or how that looks in your home. This post is based on personal experience I've had with people IRL. And since I've been homeschooling since the Stone Age :lol:, I've been lucky enough to see children who've "grown up" homeschooling and are now adults.

 

So, yes, you're right, I do think homeschooling failure is a "dirty little secret". I also say "HA" to all the people who repeat the mantra of "just keeping your kids at home means you're doing a better job", "reading aloud all day is good enough", "the baby IS the lesson", "just let them explore their own interests and they'll learn much more than they would in PS". Baloney. It's a lie, and I'm sorry that so many young homeschooling moms have bought into it.

 

The homeschoolers I've come across who were raised that way are now all adults or in their high school years. Most are struggling. A few are not, because they are exceptionally intelligent (far more than average) and have excelled IN SPITE of educational neglect, not because of it.

 

Family A had children who were all neurotypical, except one who had Down's Syndrome. The family did not believe in formal schoolwork. The children could still not read fluently by the time they were in the fifth grade. In fact, they could barely read at all. They could not do even the four basic math operations by high school age. They are now working in minimum wage jobs (pizza delivery, fast food, etc.), because they do not have the skills necessary to deal with life.

 

Family B embraced an educational philosophy that is very popular here in Utah...Tjed. While it sounds great on the surface, in practice it's an abysmal failure. The children are all behind in their work, and since there seems to be no formal instruction on the part of the mother...kids are supposed to WANT to learn because they see the mother's example of self-education...no learning is taking place. These kids are struggling with trying to catch up in a public high school (mom puts them in there in ninth grade), and with now feeling like failures. They are disillusioned with the entire homeschool way of life and feel like their mother has cheated them out of an education.

 

Another family fully embraced the whole "oh, just read aloud, play, take walks and enjoy being together" philosophy of homeschooling. Guess what? Now the kids are in junior high and nobody is enjoying the frustration, anger, resentment, moodiness and lack of self-esteem that rules their home. Johnny and Suzy have figured out that they know very little compared to their friends in church and in the neighborhood and they are now being teased for it. The mother called me in tears the other day because children were making fun of her son and he is now growing very angry. He wants to go to public middle school and the mother doesn't want him there for two reasons. One, it's a terrible environment (which I agree with) and two...he can't do the work. It breaks my heart.

 

What really makes me sad is that I feel that when these women felt or expressed doubt in what they were doing, or where their children were...education-wise, they were fed that same tired old line by other well meaning homeschooling moms..."Oh, don't worry, you can catch up. You're still doing much better than anything the public schools are doing."

 

I learned my lesson very quickly when my son was in fifth grade. I'd just given birth to my third child and school definitely took a back seat for awhile. Not so much when he was an infant (that was easy), but when he turned one. He was a very busy kid, always into everything, and my oldest son's education suffered because the toddler took all my attention. HUGE mistake!! Thank goodness I had started my son earlier than he would have started in PS (late birthday), because I needed to hold him back a year to get him caught up. I think it's a myth that an entire elementary school education can be caught up in one good seventh grade year.

 

What I have learned over 18 years of homeschooling is that it has to be rigorous. It has to be thorough. It takes time...lots of time. It is inconvenient. It's not always fun. It's expensive. It is mind numbing, physically exhausting, head bangingly frustrating and will suck out every ounce of energy, enthusiasm and joy you have in you at times. It is also the BEST decision I ever made in my life. My oldest two kids are such a joy. They have a zest for life and a love of learning that I know would have been destroyed in an institutional school setting. They are excelling in their university work. Their professors compliment their work ethic, knowledge and communications skills constantly. As my dd's history professor said recently, "How did you learn so much history?" :lol:

 

This makes me happier than you know, because I was always the parent in my homeschooling circle who was "mean". I made my kids work. They had to learn Latin for gosh sake. :D They diagrammed sentences. They did A LOT of math. They had to read a ton of books. They had a real microscope, bunsen burners, and their own disection tools. They worked when their other friends didn't. And it was worth every second. We also did lots of fun activities, field trips and read alouds. They kept nature notebooks and spent hours outside. In spring and fall, we did ALL of our schoolwork out of doors. But we did work.

 

I guess I would say that if any mother is concerned that her kids are behind, aren't doing enough work, or need to be more diligent, then she's probably right. If she thinks she's spending too much time on the internet, or on her Kindle, or scrapbooking, crafting, shopping...whatever...then she's probably right. We know what we need to do as homeschooling moms. The trick is doing it. :D

 

 

I HEART YOU! Thanks for saying all of this.

 

I have been the mean one amongst every single homeschool family I've met.

 

Like you I've done schoolwork at the picnic table, on a beach blanket, in the woods, at the farm...seriously, the boys have studied spelling or diagrammed sentences while another brother took his riding lesson or I tossed hay bales, etc. but.it.got.done. and I think that's important. We all have seasons in life; we all have unexpected situations and sometimes we do have to prioritize a family issue for a time...for a season. But, it needs to be the exception, not the rule. At some point, an education needs to happen, but it seems like that is an unpopular thing to say - not here...I've not yet met anyone on the forum that would dispute this - amongst the IRL homeschooling circles in my area.

 

Faith

[In The Great White North]

Quote:

Originally Posted by In The Great White North

I thought that, by definition, "on grade level" was the 50th percentile?

 

I never understood that. I thought 50th percentile meant [roughly] "average compared to everybody else."

But if a considerable percentage of "everybody else" is performing poorly, I'm not sure if 50th percentile is on grade level ...?

They write the test based on the 5th grade "standards", then take everyone's scores (nationally) and graph them on a normal curve, take the mean (ie. the peak of the bell-shaped curve) and call it the 50th percentile.

 

The standardized tests don't measure an absolute ability - just a "compared to everybody else" ability. If you want to measure whether the dc actually learned what he was supposed to learn, you have to use something else.

[kalanamak]

OK, and now really quickly I want to address this. If you are homeschooling and you philosophically fall on the side of "better late than early" and you are easy, breezy but intend to ramp up, I think that can be fine. The moms I know who have dropped the ball never had a philosophy though. :001_huh: They were just making plans upon plans and never getting around to doing anything.

 

Also, regarding 3rd grade. Yes, my instinct was to check the 3rd grade box. I did notice a big change in my oldest at 8, in third grade. More maturity, capabilities, patience, work ethic. It's a good time to kick learning up a notch. :)

 

In WTM, SWB notes that the goal is to be up to speed for 5th grade work.

I didn't push any topic, and made sure there was wide coverage and joy in learnng, up to the second half of 4th grade. Then, in conjunction with a longer attention span and generally growing brain, I started to put extra time on weak subjects, and beefed up math. We don't spend as much time lazing through art history (none this month :001_huh:) but any weaknesses in the 3 Rs is getting an extra coat of paint this year.

[kalanamak]

 

So, yes, you're right, I do think homeschooling failure is a "dirty little secret".

 

I know a very well meaning homeschooling family whose 18 year old went off to CC not understanding the concept of negative numbers.(Both parents are college grads.) Their other grad has some social issues (they call it "Aspie-ish") and has no plans for the future but to live at home and help around the house. THey have never had him evaluated in any way. They aren't rich. Perhaps they plan on the sister sheltering him when they are gone.

 

To this I say: "eek!"

[Kathie in VA]

I fought this for awhile also. *I* would say they were behind but then I was told to just work with them where they were. Okay we did that. I does help. Turns out they know well what they know, which may be better then others their level. ...and not knowing what we didn't cover normally isn't so bad.

 

When is it a problem? It's a big problem when they really can't take the next level in science because they don't have the math required. Sorry son, no you can't move on to physics without having done algebra II, not happening. Bad enough we managed to get through Honors Chem while also first taking Algebra 1. ug. Oh and no, I'm not signing you up for the SATs till after Alg 2 and Geometry.

 

Heads up my younger darlings, you will not fall so behind in math!

[MissKNG]

 

When do you think "behind" becomes more of a problem? At what age do you think being "behind" makes it difficult to catch up--either in content or mastery of an important subject?

 

Being behind would be a concern for me if my girls were headed to public school. I wouldn't want them behind their grade level upon entering ps.

 

OR...if I were going to hs through graduation, I wouldn't want them behind when I have to have them tested (mandatory) for reporting purposes.

[Chelli]

Diane,

 

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for expressing in your two posts things I have been struggling with and worrying about. Most homeschoolers that I know in IRL look at me like I have three heads when they find out how rigorous my dd's home school day is. This past year (2nd) I listened to them and slacked off. Unfortunately now I feel like the OP and am trying to make up ground. We should be able to catch up to where I want to be by the end of this year (3rd grade). I am going to print out your two posts and put them on my fridge. It was just the kind of testimony I needed to hear after a year of listening to my friends instead of my gut. Advice like yours is what makes his board invaluable to me as a home schooling mom!

 

Thank you again. :001_smile:

[happyhomemaker25]

I am really enjoying this thread and I am about half way through. I will say this, my two oldest daughters are REALLY behind. It's been one struggle after another since I started this journey 6 years ago. Honestly, if I did not believe that I was meant to homeschool and that it was a special calling on my life I would have sent them on their merry way a looong time ago.

My oldest has attachment issues. She is very bright, but school has always been a struggle with her. She also went to about 5 different schools between K and 2nd grade AND she failed K and was going to fail 2nd grade. She is/was very stubborn and refused to read in 2nd grade because she did not like the teacher. She read fine here at home, but at school she just would not do it. Our first two years homeschooling were miserable. She hated it and refused to do the work. It was one battle after another. Then we had a year where everything that could go wrong did. The next year I struggled to get us back on track. She fought me every step of the way. Finally I sat her down and told her that I was done. I was going to keep giving her the resources and keep teaching, but what she did with that was her decision. Her choice. She came around about a year and a half ago and has really taken off. That being said she is 15 and still doing elementary work. Granted she will start doing Pre-Algebra in January and by her own mind has a goal to start Algebra or Geometry either over the summer or in the fall. By her goal she should finish Algebra II the summer she turns 18. I'm proud of her for setting goals and working hard. We've also talked about if she gets stuck and has to slow down that, that's ok as well. She is finishing up her 6th grade CLE LA book and then I will look for other grammar. In January I will also move her to a more advanced History and I think Science online. We will also begin working on outlining and summarizing. I have to remember sometimes that she needed to move at her pace and that even if she were in PS she would only be at 7th or 8th grade right now because of failing.

My second daughter learned to read early and did so well. Then we came upon some serious comprehension issues. We had to slow way down and back up some because she was not retaining the information. This last year or two it's really started to click. She should be in 7th grade but is working at a much lower level. While she is far behind she has so much more confidence now and I think will soon be able to catch up.

I moved both girls back to FLL 3 to help supplement CLE (not that I think CLE LA needs it, but I do think it helps reinforce). I also have them working through WWE. The flew through the first book and we are almost to the middle of the 2nd one. They love it and I have seen big improvement in their writing.

My third daughter is only about 1 grade level behind. She was tested and while she does not have a LD she does have delays emotionally that kept her back a little. She struggled to learn to read and I have had to slow down with her. I think though because I was going through it with my older girls I figured out early on what to do with her and I think that has really helped. She is reading a lot better now and at 11 is almost done with her 3rd grade book. By PS standards she would only be in 4th grade so I'm actually ok with where she is working.

At times I felt shame and failure. Looking back though I KNOW I did the right thing for my kids. I think they could have easily just floated through school making mediocre grades and not having a love of learning. We had some rough years where I was afraid they would lose that love of learning, but we have regained it so much just by backing up and letting them work at a pace that has inspired confidence in them.

I am also so grateful for my oldest son. He has been a breeze to teach and might really be gifted. He is already working at a 4th grade level and flying through that. I am grateful that he came along just when I thought I could not teach one more kid. He's given me a bit of a break from all the struggles and that really makes me happy. My youngest son is very bright, but he is wearing me out. LOL I don't see him struggling though, he is just not a bookish kid. He's very active and hands on which I can work with great right now at the 1st grade level, I just hope I can keep it up as he gets older.

My baby is already playing with letter sounds so I'm thinking she might be ok as well. I'm glad I think I've earned a few easier students. :tongue_smilie:

All that being said that yes, I think a kid can be too far behind. Mine by all rights are and if they have college in their future then it will be hard for them because of where they are now. I also don't always think it's slacking on the parents part though I did have that one year I felt like a slacker, but it was a really rough year. Looking back I don't know that we lost that much though.

I want to be that WTM parent who's kid is at the logic stage learning logic and outlining and is advanced in Latin, but I had to give that up (at least for my older girls). I'm working through TWTM, but at a pace that works for our family. I am hoping to introduce more Logic and Foreign Language next year for my two older girls. I do believe we can "catch up" , but I'm also ok if we don't. I still think they are getting the best education for them.

[Parrothead]

You bet, I'm happy to explain more. But I do want to preface this post by saying that I am NOT in any way referring to anyone in this thread or on this board or passing judgement on the homeschooling methods of anyone on this board. I don't know anybody here well enough to know how you homeschool or how that looks in your home. This post is based on personal experience I've had with people IRL. And since I've been homeschooling since the Stone Age :lol:, I've been lucky enough to see children who've "grown up" homeschooling and are now adults.

 

So, yes, you're right, I do think homeschooling failure is a "dirty little secret". I also say "HA" to all the people who repeat the mantra of "just keeping your kids at home means you're doing a better job", "reading aloud all day is good enough", "the baby IS the lesson", "just let them explore their own interests and they'll learn much more than they would in PS". Baloney. It's a lie, and I'm sorry that so many young homeschooling moms have bought into it.

 

The homeschoolers I've come across who were raised that way are now all adults or in their high school years. Most are struggling. A few are not, because they are exceptionally intelligent (far more than average) and have excelled IN SPITE of educational neglect, not because of it.

 

Family A had children who were all neurotypical, except one who had Down's Syndrome. The family did not believe in formal schoolwork. The children could still not read fluently by the time they were in the fifth grade. In fact, they could barely read at all. They could not do even the four basic math operations by high school age. They are now working in minimum wage jobs (pizza delivery, fast food, etc.), because they do not have the skills necessary to deal with life.

 

Family B embraced an educational philosophy that is very popular here in Utah...Tjed. While it sounds great on the surface, in practice it's an abysmal failure. The children are all behind in their work, and since there seems to be no formal instruction on the part of the mother...kids are supposed to WANT to learn because they see the mother's example of self-education...no learning is taking place. These kids are struggling with trying to catch up in a public high school (mom puts them in there in ninth grade), and with now feeling like failures. They are disillusioned with the entire homeschool way of life and feel like their mother has cheated them out of an education.

 

Another family fully embraced the whole "oh, just read aloud, play, take walks and enjoy being together" philosophy of homeschooling. Guess what? Now the kids are in junior high and nobody is enjoying the frustration, anger, resentment, moodiness and lack of self-esteem that rules their home. Johnny and Suzy have figured out that they know very little compared to their friends in church and in the neighborhood and they are now being teased for it. The mother called me in tears the other day because children were making fun of her son and he is now growing very angry. He wants to go to public middle school and the mother doesn't want him there for two reasons. One, it's a terrible environment (which I agree with) and two...he can't do the work. It breaks my heart.

 

What really makes me sad is that I feel that when these women felt or expressed doubt in what they were doing, or where their children were...education-wise, they were fed that same tired old line by other well meaning homeschooling moms..."Oh, don't worry, you can catch up. You're still doing much better than anything the public schools are doing."

 

I learned my lesson very quickly when my son was in fifth grade. I'd just given birth to my third child and school definitely took a back seat for awhile. Not so much when he was an infant (that was easy), but when he turned one. He was a very busy kid, always into everything, and my oldest son's education suffered because the toddler took all my attention. HUGE mistake!! Thank goodness I had started my son earlier than he would have started in PS (late birthday), because I needed to hold him back a year to get him caught up. I think it's a myth that an entire elementary school education can be caught up in one good seventh grade year.

 

What I have learned over 18 years of homeschooling is that it has to be rigorous. It has to be thorough. It takes time...lots of time. It is inconvenient. It's not always fun. It's expensive. It is mind numbing, physically exhausting, head bangingly frustrating and will suck out every ounce of energy, enthusiasm and joy you have in you at times. It is also the BEST decision I ever made in my life. My oldest two kids are such a joy. They have a zest for life and a love of learning that I know would have been destroyed in an institutional school setting. They are excelling in their university work. Their professors compliment their work ethic, knowledge and communications skills constantly. As my dd's history professor said recently, "How did you learn so much history?" :lol:

 

This makes me happier than you know, because I was always the parent in my homeschooling circle who was "mean". I made my kids work. They had to learn Latin for gosh sake. :D They diagrammed sentences. They did A LOT of math. They had to read a ton of books. They had a real microscope, bunsen burners, and their own disection tools. They worked when their other friends didn't. And it was worth every second. We also did lots of fun activities, field trips and read alouds. They kept nature notebooks and spent hours outside. In spring and fall, we did ALL of our schoolwork out of doors. But we did work.

 

I guess I would say that if any mother is concerned that her kids are behind, aren't doing enough work, or need to be more diligent, then she's probably right. If she thinks she's spending too much time on the internet, or on her Kindle, or scrapbooking, crafting, shopping...whatever...then she's probably right. We know what we need to do as homeschooling moms. The trick is doing it. :D

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

[Farrar]

This image seems particularly appropriate to this thread: "Never discourage anyone who makes continual progress, no matter how slow."

 

This.is.not.a.race.

 

We don't expect every 8 year old to have the same shoe size, interests or athletic ability. Why do we expect them all to be at the same place academically?

 

I've had to seriously deschool my thinking in this area with regard to my "behind" older DD.

 

However, I'm learning that slow and steady, step by step, we'll get where we need to go. This isn't a race, this isn't a competition. This is about meeting kids where they are, one child at a time. If I wanted to package and label her like a side of beef (grade B for behind?), I'd just put her in school.

 

:iagree:

 

I don't ascribe to the idea that there's one right level. Or to the idea that you can fall behind and never catch up. Those things are true in school. But that's one of many reasons I don't send my kids to school.

 

I think there can be homeschool fails. And that some people do their kids a huge disservice by not pushing them or letting them off the hook again and again until they are in a place where their peers are doing much, much more. But I don't think that it's black and white. I think that there's a place in between some struggle to stay on some artificial "grade level" and letting it go and just saying, whatever, we can always catch up whenever.

 

But I think it's really sad that some people think an 8 yo who's behind will never catch up. Good grief. Sure, optimally, it would be great if every 8 yo was reading at a high level, knew their multiplication facts and so forth. And of course we should try to help our kids get there and meet those educational milestones. But it's okay to hit them at different moments, as long as you keep moving forward.

[FaithManor]

Diane did an absolutely excellent job of articulating my thoughts - she must have a little spy inside my head! :001_smile:

 

I do however want to go further into this concept of, "Whatever the ps is doing, you are automatically doing better just because you homeschool." I think this is very dangerous and leads to dire circumstances.

 

Creekland and I agree that my local PS is ABYSMAL, absolutely the pits. Now that said, they are still teaching reading actively, half of their third and fourth graders do know their multiplication tables, most of the 5th graders I've met have a fair to middlin' idea of their parts of speech, most can write a sentence and some of them can construct a decent, coherent, capitalized and punctuated one, and they know some US history. They have studied a LOT of vocabulary in order to bump up those standardized test scores. Now granted, they may not be able to use these words very well in conversation, but they can give you a cursory definition or possibly if they cannot articulate that, they can give you a word with a similar meaning to help indicate that they've encountered the vocab. Paltry nuts and bolts stuff, but it is there.

 

In contrast, we've got some "feral" homeschoolers in our community and their middle school age children cannot read on any appreciable level, they have bizarrely limited vocabularies which indicates not having meaningful conversations with adults, spending too much time in front of the T.V., or not being read to much at all. The 12-14 year olds I've met from these three families do not know any math beyond basic addition and subtraction, and their parents figure "they'll learn to write when they feel like it." But, since everyday is a happy, happy, fun-fun day in which they spend it "exploring" or doing what they want because it's supposed to be "child lead learning" (straight from the mothers' mouths so I'm not making assumptions here) they have not developed a drive to learn anything. Once you give the kid the option to NOT do anything at all, many will become resistant to work.

 

Yet, the mothers keep saying, "Anything we do is better than the PS." Nope, sorry, busted! The PS is actually doing something. Everyday PS kids for 180 days per year get out of bed, go to school, stare at books and worksheets, hear someone talk on a hopefully adult level, often have someone read aloud to them (still common at the elementary level for the teachers to pick a few good books per year - My Side of the Mountain, A Wrinkle in Time, etc. and read aloud everyday after lunch), and at least witness some kind of schoolwork being done or gasp, participate in that. They actually own spelling books and have to work in them. Someone at some point will evaluate their reading skills.

 

So, "anything you do is better" is a myth. You can do worse. Homeschool fail does exist.

 

Now, add to that this wrinkle. There are pockets of education going on in the PS that, despite moral failings and school environment issues, are doing a good job. The IB school in West Bloomfield, Frankenmuth High, The Academy of Math and Science in Grand Rapids (hope I got that name right), to name a few in Michigan. Beyond that we see talented, well educated kids involved in Team America Rocketry Challenge and the bulk of them hail from public schools - Seabrook, Thomas Jefferson High, Madison West, Rockwell Heath, Plantation High, ...granted one might have very real concerns about the environment in these schools, but here is the deal...they offer the academics and someone is able to adequately explain them to at least a portion of the student body. That means that all PS's aren't failing everyone academically. So, given that not all PS's are created equal, I am very concerned about the above "myth" being purported as truth because those that tend to espouse this philosophy also seem to think that every PS is a Highland Park school even though they don't live in Highland Park and would be well advised to find out what their local school district is really doing before making such a sweeping statement.

 

Kids need to learn. Kids need an education. Kids need to grow up to be employable adults and hopefully employable at something that will lead to a living wage and not poverty for all of their hardwork. That doesn't happen in a vacuum. It.never.has. Long before there was public school there were parents, tutors, nannies, governesses, pastors, nuns, monks, priests, schoolmasters, rabbi's.....taking young children and starting from the beginning and teaching. They may have done it one-one, in a small group, or a large environment, but every civilization that has advanced, achieved, and moved forward, has had teaching the younglings as a foundation be it with papyrus, clay tablets, paper, blackboards, or computers....somebody has been teaching. Every society that has had an educated select elite and a largely uneducated populace has had feudalism, oppression, and the like. We'll have it too if the celebration of illiteracy continues and anti-education is considered noble.

 

:D There's my rant! This board, on a lot of levels, is my sanity maker because it keeps me in contact with people who not only homeschool but truly, deeply care about their kids educations and actually look at the bigger picture, the long term goals. I am not surrounded by parents that do this. :glare:

 

Faith

Edited October 30, 2012 by FaithManor

[Alte Veste Academy]

What really makes me sad is that I feel that when these women felt or expressed doubt in what they were doing, or where their children were...education-wise, they were fed that same tired old line by other well meaning homeschooling moms..."Oh, don't worry, you can catch up. You're still doing much better than anything the public schools are doing."

 

...

 

I guess I would say that if any mother is concerned that her kids are behind, aren't doing enough work, or need to be more diligent, then she's probably right. If she thinks she's spending too much time on the internet, or on her Kindle, or scrapbooking, crafting, shopping...whatever...then she's probably right. We know what we need to do as homeschooling moms. The trick is doing it. :D

 

:iagree: I can't tell you how many times I have cringed reading posts dismissing concerns. Too many :grouphug: and not enough :confused: :toetap05: :gnorsi:. Sometimes I think these very boards could be used against us to build the case for increasing oversight of homeschools.

[Alte Veste Academy]

In WTM, SWB notes that the goal is to be up to speed for 5th grade work.

I didn't push any topic, and made sure there was wide coverage and joy in learnng, up to the second half of 4th grade. Then, in conjunction with a longer attention span and generally growing brain, I started to put extra time on weak subjects, and beefed up math. We don't spend as much time lazing through art history (none this month :001_huh:) but any weaknesses in the 3 Rs is getting an extra coat of paint this year.

 

Yes, we are ramping up here in anticipation of 5th grade. I love the painting analogy.

 

Diane,

 

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for expressing in your two posts things I have been struggling with and worrying about. Most homeschoolers that I know in IRL look at me like I have three heads when they find out how rigorous my dd's home school day is. This past year (2nd) I listened to them and slacked off. Unfortunately now I feel like the OP and am trying to make up ground. We should be able to catch up to where I want to be by the end of this year (3rd grade). I am going to print out your two posts and put them on my fridge. It was just the kind of testimony I needed to hear after a year of listening to my friends instead of my gut. Advice like yours is what makes his board invaluable to me as a home schooling mom!

 

Thank you again. :001_smile:

 

I couldn't even talk about what we do with many of the IRL homeschoolers I met in Texas. They were of the "just buy some workbooks at Wal-Mart and let them play" mentality. Um. No.

 

:iagree:

 

I don't ascribe to the idea that there's one right level. Or to the idea that you can fall behind and never catch up. Those things are true in school. But that's one of many reasons I don't send my kids to school.

 

I think there can be homeschool fails. And that some people do their kids a huge disservice by not pushing them or letting them off the hook again and again until they are in a place where their peers are doing much, much more. But I don't think that it's black and white. I think that there's a place in between some struggle to stay on some artificial "grade level" and letting it go and just saying, whatever, we can always catch up whenever.

 

But I think it's really sad that some people think an 8 yo who's behind will never catch up. Good grief. Sure, optimally, it would be great if every 8 yo was reading at a high level, knew their multiplication facts and so forth. And of course we should try to help our kids get there and meet those educational milestones. But it's okay to hit them at different moments, as long as you keep moving forward.

 

I don't think it's an issue of 8 year olds never catching up. I think it's an issue of something that isn't working needing to be recognized and fixed. Ignoring being behind (however anyone wants to define that) is just digging a bigger hole.

 

And, really, I cannot possibly be the only person who feels responsible for keeping my kids (at least) at grade level in case I get hit by a bus. If I die tomorrow, the kids are going to school (at some point after they recover from their grief, I'm sure :tongue_smilie:). DH cannot work and homeschool three kids. If I had a child with a recognized developmental delay who would be certain to receive services, that's one thing. But if I have just been lazy or negligent or philosophically la-dee-da? Well, I have just royally screwed my kids. :(

 

ETA: I was thinking about this some more. The thing is that what if the HSer is negligent or just a bad teacher? So, if your 8 year old was in school and wasn't learning anything. Was behind? Struggling? And you recognized that the teacher wasn't diligent? Or was merely average and not drawing out the best in your kid? Would you want your child in that teacher's class again the following year? Nuh-uh. No way. And yet that is what kids get with homeschooling. Maybe a homeschooler just plain isn't doing a good job and that is why the kid is behind.

 

OP, I am no longer addressing you. :lol:

Edited October 30, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[Alte Veste Academy]

This image seems particularly appropriate to this thread: "Never discourage anyone who makes continual progress, no matter how slow."

 

This.is.not.a.race.

 

We don't expect every 8 year old to have the same shoe size, interests or athletic ability. Why do we expect them all to be at the same place academically?

 

I've had to seriously deschool my thinking in this area with regard to my "behind" older DD.

 

However, I'm learning that slow and steady, step by step, we'll get where we need to go. This isn't a race, this isn't a competition. This is about meeting kids where they are, one child at a time. If I wanted to package and label her like a side of beef (grade B for behind?), I'd just put her in school.

 

:lol: The Tortoise and the Hare is my avatar. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do believe in slow and steady wins the race. If you start slow and steady (and, really, LOL, I don't even begin formal learning with my kids until 1st grade), you will move steadily forward. I personally even recognize "two steps forward, one step back" as a form of stready progress. Different kids have different rates, of course. But, like you say, continual progress should be recognized.

 

I think there needs to be a distinction made between consciously deciding to educate in a relaxed way (like Waldorf with later introduction of some instruction, for example) and just plain not being able to pull it together. I know people who fall into both categories. I have no problems with the first (although my fear of being hit by a bus has already been brought up :tongue_smilie:) and big problems with the second...if they are not at least working on it.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[Farrar]

And, really, I cannot possibly be the only person who feels responsible for keeping my kids (at least) at grade level in case I get hit by a bus. If I die tomorrow, the kids are going to school (at some point after they recover from their grief, I'm sure :tongue_smilie:). DH cannot work and homeschool three kids. If I had a child with a recognized developmental delay who would be certain to receive services, that's one thing. But if I have just been lazy or negligent or philosophically la-dee-da? Well, I have just royally screwed my kids. :(

 

Yes, horrible things can happen. But I never make my decisions based on things that are so unlikely, especially not when I think it's the right decision.

 

I'm not talking about neglecting teaching a child or even neglecting being rigorous for that child. I'm certainly not talking about being lazy. I'm just saying that I think the idea of exactly where a kid should be according to the ps system is not where I want to peg my expectations. I don't buy into the idea that there's one right scope and sequence of skills and content or that every kid's brain should be ready for the exact same stuff at the exact same age. I think the important stuff is subjective to some extent and there are a lot of right paths to becoming a well-educated adult prepared for college or the world in general. And I refuse to believe that following the path that seems right for us will end up royally screwing my kids, even if I die in a horrible accident today.

 

This is what bothers me. It's like, either you're ahead of what the ps system has defined as the standards, or you're being neglectful and lazy? I don't believe that for a minute.

[shinyhappypeople]

Yes, horrible things can happen. But I never make my decisions based on things that are so unlikely, especially not when I think it's the right decision.

 

I'm not talking about neglecting teaching a child or even neglecting being rigorous for that child. I'm certainly not talking about being lazy. I'm just saying that I think the idea of exactly where a kid should be according to the ps system is not where I want to peg my expectations. I don't buy into the idea that there's one right scope and sequence of skills and content or that every kid's brain should be ready for the exact same stuff at the exact same age. I think the important stuff is subjective to some extent and there are a lot of right paths to becoming a well-educated adult prepared for college or the world in general. And I refuse to believe that following the path that seems right for us will end up royally screwing my kids, even if I die in a horrible accident today.

 

This is what bothers me. It's like, either you're ahead of what the ps system has defined as the standards, or you're being neglectful and lazy? I don't believe that for a minute.

 

I'm going to follow you around with this sign :iagree: today.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Yes, horrible things can happen. But I never make my decisions based on things that are so unlikely, especially not when I think it's the right decision.

 

I'm not talking about neglecting teaching a child or even neglecting being rigorous for that child. I'm certainly not talking about being lazy. I'm just saying that I think the idea of exactly where a kid should be according to the ps system is not where I want to peg my expectations. I don't buy into the idea that there's one right scope and sequence of skills and content or that every kid's brain should be ready for the exact same stuff at the exact same age. I think the important stuff is subjective to some extent and there are a lot of right paths to becoming a well-educated adult prepared for college or the world in general. And I refuse to believe that following the path that seems right for us will end up royally screwing my kids, even if I die in a horrible accident today.

 

This is what bothers me. It's like, either you're ahead of what the ps system has defined as the standards, or you're being neglectful and lazy? I don't believe that for a minute.

 

Well, to be fair the hit by a bus thing is my thing. And I said "being behind (however anyone wants to define that)" not PS standards. Truthfully, I am scarred by the loss of several friends my age. I had a dear friend die in her sleep at the age of 38. It has stuck with me. It's a big deal to me. Again, it's my thing.

 

I don't even look at the PS standards, by the way. :tongue_smilie: Let's see. What do I not do like PS? EVERYTHING! :lol:

 

But, you know, what we're really falling back to here is someone is feeling that something isn't quite right and there are those of us who are saying to respect that feeling and get crackin'. And some who are giving the typical response of, "Yeah, man, but who's to say anyway?" No, it's not always either/or. But sometimes it is.

 

Also, I edited my post that you quoted. You don't have to answer though. I know how everyone would answer that question anyway. :tongue_smilie:

[EKS]

You bet, I'm happy to explain more. But I do want to preface this post by saying that I am NOT in any way referring to anyone in this thread or on this board or passing judgement on the homeschooling methods of anyone on this board. I don't know anybody here well enough to know how you homeschool or how that looks in your home. This post is based on personal experience I've had with people IRL. And since I've been homeschooling since the Stone Age :lol:, I've been lucky enough to see children who've "grown up" homeschooling and are now adults.

 

So, yes, you're right, I do think homeschooling failure is a "dirty little secret". I also say "HA" to all the people who repeat the mantra of "just keeping your kids at home means you're doing a better job", "reading aloud all day is good enough", "the baby IS the lesson", "just let them explore their own interests and they'll learn much more than they would in PS". Baloney. It's a lie, and I'm sorry that so many young homeschooling moms have bought into it.

 

The homeschoolers I've come across who were raised that way are now all adults or in their high school years. Most are struggling. A few are not, because they are exceptionally intelligent (far more than average) and have excelled IN SPITE of educational neglect, not because of it.

 

Family A had children who were all neurotypical, except one who had Down's Syndrome. The family did not believe in formal schoolwork. The children could still not read fluently by the time they were in the fifth grade. In fact, they could barely read at all. They could not do even the four basic math operations by high school age. They are now working in minimum wage jobs (pizza delivery, fast food, etc.), because they do not have the skills necessary to deal with life.

 

Family B embraced an educational philosophy that is very popular here in Utah...Tjed. While it sounds great on the surface, in practice it's an abysmal failure. The children are all behind in their work, and since there seems to be no formal instruction on the part of the mother...kids are supposed to WANT to learn because they see the mother's example of self-education...no learning is taking place. These kids are struggling with trying to catch up in a public high school (mom puts them in there in ninth grade), and with now feeling like failures. They are disillusioned with the entire homeschool way of life and feel like their mother has cheated them out of an education.

 

Another family fully embraced the whole "oh, just read aloud, play, take walks and enjoy being together" philosophy of homeschooling. Guess what? Now the kids are in junior high and nobody is enjoying the frustration, anger, resentment, moodiness and lack of self-esteem that rules their home. Johnny and Suzy have figured out that they know very little compared to their friends in church and in the neighborhood and they are now being teased for it. The mother called me in tears the other day because children were making fun of her son and he is now growing very angry. He wants to go to public middle school and the mother doesn't want him there for two reasons. One, it's a terrible environment (which I agree with) and two...he can't do the work. It breaks my heart.

 

What really makes me sad is that I feel that when these women felt or expressed doubt in what they were doing, or where their children were...education-wise, they were fed that same tired old line by other well meaning homeschooling moms..."Oh, don't worry, you can catch up. You're still doing much better than anything the public schools are doing."

 

I learned my lesson very quickly when my son was in fifth grade. I'd just given birth to my third child and school definitely took a back seat for awhile. Not so much when he was an infant (that was easy), but when he turned one. He was a very busy kid, always into everything, and my oldest son's education suffered because the toddler took all my attention. HUGE mistake!! Thank goodness I had started my son earlier than he would have started in PS (late birthday), because I needed to hold him back a year to get him caught up. I think it's a myth that an entire elementary school education can be caught up in one good seventh grade year.

 

What I have learned over 18 years of homeschooling is that it has to be rigorous. It has to be thorough. It takes time...lots of time. It is inconvenient. It's not always fun. It's expensive. It is mind numbing, physically exhausting, head bangingly frustrating and will suck out every ounce of energy, enthusiasm and joy you have in you at times. It is also the BEST decision I ever made in my life. My oldest two kids are such a joy. They have a zest for life and a love of learning that I know would have been destroyed in an institutional school setting. They are excelling in their university work. Their professors compliment their work ethic, knowledge and communications skills constantly. As my dd's history professor said recently, "How did you learn so much history?" :lol:

 

This makes me happier than you know, because I was always the parent in my homeschooling circle who was "mean". I made my kids work. They had to learn Latin for gosh sake. :D They diagrammed sentences. They did A LOT of math. They had to read a ton of books. They had a real microscope, bunsen burners, and their own disection tools. They worked when their other friends didn't. And it was worth every second. We also did lots of fun activities, field trips and read alouds. They kept nature notebooks and spent hours outside. In spring and fall, we did ALL of our schoolwork out of doors. But we did work.

 

I guess I would say that if any mother is concerned that her kids are behind, aren't doing enough work, or need to be more diligent, then she's probably right. If she thinks she's spending too much time on the internet, or on her Kindle, or scrapbooking, crafting, shopping...whatever...then she's probably right. We know what we need to do as homeschooling moms. The trick is doing it. :D

 

This is one of the best posts about the reality of homeschooling I've ever read. Thank you!

[Farrar]

ETA: I was thinking about this some more. The thing is that what if the HSer is negligent or just a bad teacher? Or merely average and isn't drawing out the best in your kid? So, if your 8 year old was in school and wasn't learning anything. Was behind? Struggling? And you recognized that the teacher wasn't diligent? Would you want your child in that teacher's class again the following year? Nuh-uh. No way. And yet that is what kids get with homeschooling. Maybe a homeschooler just plain isn't doing a good job and that is why the kid is behind.

 

See, I also think that kids are resilient. That's one of the central tenants of parenting for me. And that I have to forgive myself, because I'm never a perfect parent. It doesn't mean I would excuse myself from doing a really shoddy job, just that there are always choices and inevitably some of mine will be wrong.

 

And I also look back and feel really grateful for all the parents whose kids I taught over the years who were patient with me when I wasn't perfect and did let me teach their kids a second and third year, even if the first one was rocky. There does come a point at which you have to say, this isn't working (either yourself or another teacher). But I think there has to be room to move. And that means there has to be room for us all to fall behind and then move ahead.

 

I think one thing that helps me in some ways is having identical twins, who I am teaching much the same, who still manage to have different strengths and weaknesses. Why can one spell and the other cannot? Oh well, I'll try something else. If I talk about behind, behind, behind, or beat myself up over it, that doesn't really help him or me.

[Alte Veste Academy]

See, I also think that kids are resilient. That's one of the central tenants of parenting for me. And that I have to forgive myself, because I'm never a perfect parent. It doesn't mean I would excuse myself from doing a really shoddy job, just that there are always choices and inevitably some of mine will be wrong.

 

And I also look back and feel really grateful for all the parents whose kids I taught over the years who were patient with me when I wasn't perfect and did let me teach their kids a second and third year, even if the first one was rocky. There does come a point at which you have to say, this isn't working (either yourself or another teacher). But I think there has to be room to move. And that means there has to be room for us all to fall behind and then move ahead.

 

I think one thing that helps me in some ways is having identical twins, who I am teaching much the same, who still manage to have different strengths and weaknesses. Why can one spell and the other cannot? Oh well, I'll try something else. If I talk about behind, behind, behind, or beat myself up over it, that doesn't really help him or me.

 

I'm a little :lol: because I think you and I would agree about more HS philosophy than we would disagree. I don't think I disagree with you at all. Of course we're going to make some poor choices as teachers/homeschoolers. Of course we're going to have rocky times. Of course we're going to have challenges. Yes...

 

I personally even recognize "two steps forward, one step back" as a form of steady progress.

 

The key is that you course correct. And part of that is...

 

Oh well, I'll try something else

 

Yes, you seek advice where appropriate and you try something else. You don't throw up your hands...but maybe you do take a break to reassess. (I am seriously :lol: because I'm someone who took months off of math with my DS9!) You recognize the strengths and weaknesses and address them. What I'm saying is that some people don't. They either don't recognize them to begin with or put their heads in the sand or don't care... I don't know. But they don't course correct. Of course kids are resilient. But I think it is unfair and irresponsible to ignore concerns and expect (or really, hope for) resilience to make up for year after year after year of sub-par instruction and low expectations.

 

I really think we might be talking past each other. Or maybe you haven't had the pleasure of knowing someone IRL who is royally screwing up at homeschooling. :lol:

 

I have three kids very close in age. In some things, my youngers have surpassed an older. I don't really care. I think it's cool that I can be flexible and play to their strengths. It's one of the most awesome things about homeschooling.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[Tidbits of Learning]

My answer is based on our experience. We started at various ages/grades with our children. I had a 4th, 3rd, and 1st grader. My 1st grader was behind and each year he stayed behind. By behind, I mean he is not where his age/grade peers are with grade level skills. We have schooled through summers and year round. We did go on to the next thing. The thing is once you start off behind unless you suddenly have a huge jump in skills...you are always playing catch up.

This is much more evident in middle school. We will probably repeat 4th grade next year with ds. It will make him finally on track instead of constantly behind and feeling like he has to catch up.

When does it actually matter? It matters in peer groups. It matters when they are with friends. It matters when they are more than a grade level behind in any subject. I think there is a range for these things, but I also think at some point it is time to start massively working to catch up or just hold them back. I mean you can't really call a 4th grader a 4th grader who is still working on phonics or simple addition and subtraction. When a child is working more than one full grade level below their peers in the same grade...well I consider that behind no matter what grade level you are talking about...

[justLisa]

Diane I think a lot of people needed to hear that :001_smile:

 

And I agree.

[DianeW88]

Thanks to everyone who has said nice things about my post! You made my day! :D

 

And to clarify, I am not the type of homeschooling mom who chained my kindy age kids to kitchen chairs and made them memorize math facts. :lol: Although I did contemplate it with a certain third grader at the time. :glare: I think I'm a fun homeschooling mom. We use Konos for goodness sake...I do Medieval feats and build castles out of appliance boxes! :D :D :D I'm also not referring to kids who have special challenges or learning disabilities. That is something entirely different. And I will admit that my standards of what is "behind" are based on my own schooling experience. I do have high expectations, but I know my kids are capable of meeting them. If they weren't...I would adjust to what they were capable of. I'm speaking solely of moms who really aren't giving it the old college try. Who say, "Oh well, that's good enough. Let's stop for the day. We have a busy afternoon. We'll do more school tomorrow." And tomorrow never comes.

 

I guess I'm sort of trying to launch a mini-expose on a certain mindset in homeschool circles. We can fail...spectacularly. I think we need to remember that homeschooling, in and of itself, is no guarantee of academic achievement. The failures/difficulties/struggles/agonies of homeschooling tend to get swept under the rug by so many homeschooling moms. I think we've idealized homeschooling in such a big way that we've become dismissive of just how hard and ugly it can get sometimes. And I think that is a terrible misrepresentation of what homeschooling really is.

 

Of course we all want it to be unicorns, rainbows, and glitter, with our children gathered around the table, beatific smiles on their freshly scrubbed faces, eagerly awaiting whatever tidbits of knowledge we are going to give them that day. We want them to enthusiastically approach every assignment and project with glee, so excited that they can't wait to get started. After all, we spent HOURS planning, buying, deliberating, shopping, etc. for this amazing curriculum...the least they can do is show some enthusiasm. But the reality is that most of the time they don't. In fact, a whole lot of the time, they want no part of it. So poor homeschooling mom thinks it must be some sort of failure on her part. The curriculum isn't a good fit. She's misunderstood Johnny's learning style. She didn't present the material correctly. She's a loser mom. So, because it's hard, homeschool mom decides she's going to skip math for a couple days to give Johnny (and herself) a break. Days turn into weeks. Weeks turn into months, and all of a sudden, Johnny is a full grade level behind. And not because of a lack of ability on his part.

 

I think the problem arises when Johnny's mom asks other homeschooling moms what they think about it, and she is told that it's ok. She doesn't need to worry about it. He'll get caught up. The important thing is that her son is home with her. He'll be fine.

 

We are not helping each other when we enable each other in this way.

 

Now, obviously, I'm not talking about berating other moms or scolding them in any way. But I think we need to be real. Homeschooling is HARD. It's not sitting around on the couch cuddled in a blanket, while everyone drinks cocoa and sits spellbound by the read aloud. Sometimes it can be like that. Sometimes nobody interrupts. Nobody spills the cocoa. Nobody puts their feet on their sibling...repeatedly. Nobody asks mom if she's almost finished. Sometimes mom can even get through an entire chapter without an interruption. Sometimes. :glare:

 

I think if we can really help one another and talk about the hard stuff, a lot of homeschool moms won't suffer in silence, thinking they're all alone in their journey, and that their kids are the only ones who don't approach a page of long division problems with squeals of joy.

 

Because I've seen the fruit of my labors, I can say with 100% certainty that homeschooling can be amazing. But it isn't for the faint of heart. It isn't for moms who aren't willing to take on the Herculean task of being solely responsible for the K-12 education of each of her children. We are doing what an entire school system would normally be responsible for. We are single-handedly doing the job that at least 100 people would normally be doing for your child over the course of his school career. But we do it because we are our children's mothers. We love them with a ferocity and intensity that they will never get from ten school districts combined. We want them to excel in life. We want to give them the best opportunities that the world has to offer them. We want them to make their own opportunities in life and take that world by storm. So we can each be amazing homeschooling moms!!

 

The only problem is we have to get out of our pajamas every morning, step away from the internet, and actually teach them. Reality can be so cruel. :lol:

[Farrar]

I'm a little :lol: because I think you and I would agree about more HS philosophy than we would disagree. I don't think I disagree with you at all. Of course we're going to make some poor choices as teachers/homeschoolers. Of course we're going to have rocky times. Of course we're going to have challenges. Yes...

 

 

Oh, I'm sure we do. I think you and I are usually in the same corner, Kristina. :001_smile:

 

You know, I tend to be very, um... Oppositional. So if everyone had some in this thread and said, "Don't worry about!" I probably would have been in here arguing that sometimes you do need to worry. :lol:

[Dicentra]

So, yes, you're right, I do think homeschooling failure is a "dirty little secret". I also say "HA" to all the people who repeat the mantra of "just keeping your kids at home means you're doing a better job", "reading aloud all day is good enough", "the baby IS the lesson", "just let them explore their own interests and they'll learn much more than they would in PS". Baloney. It's a lie, and I'm sorry that so many young homeschooling moms have bought into it.

 

The homeschoolers I've come across who were raised that way are now all adults or in their high school years. Most are struggling. A few are not, because they are exceptionally intelligent (far more than average) and have excelled IN SPITE of educational neglect, not because of it.

 

Family A had children who were all neurotypical, except one who had Down's Syndrome. The family did not believe in formal schoolwork. The children could still not read fluently by the time they were in the fifth grade. In fact, they could barely read at all. They could not do even the four basic math operations by high school age. They are now working in minimum wage jobs (pizza delivery, fast food, etc.), because they do not have the skills necessary to deal with life.

 

Family B embraced an educational philosophy that is very popular here in Utah...Tjed. While it sounds great on the surface, in practice it's an abysmal failure. The children are all behind in their work, and since there seems to be no formal instruction on the part of the mother...kids are supposed to WANT to learn because they see the mother's example of self-education...no learning is taking place. These kids are struggling with trying to catch up in a public high school (mom puts them in there in ninth grade), and with now feeling like failures. They are disillusioned with the entire homeschool way of life and feel like their mother has cheated them out of an education.

 

Another family fully embraced the whole "oh, just read aloud, play, take walks and enjoy being together" philosophy of homeschooling. Guess what? Now the kids are in junior high and nobody is enjoying the frustration, anger, resentment, moodiness and lack of self-esteem that rules their home. Johnny and Suzy have figured out that they know very little compared to their friends in church and in the neighborhood and they are now being teased for it. The mother called me in tears the other day because children were making fun of her son and he is now growing very angry. He wants to go to public middle school and the mother doesn't want him there for two reasons. One, it's a terrible environment (which I agree with) and two...he can't do the work. It breaks my heart.

 

What really makes me sad is that I feel that when these women felt or expressed doubt in what they were doing, or where their children were...education-wise, they were fed that same tired old line by other well meaning homeschooling moms..."Oh, don't worry, you can catch up. You're still doing much better than anything the public schools are doing."

 

What I have learned over 18 years of homeschooling is that it has to be rigorous. It has to be thorough. It takes time...lots of time. It is inconvenient. It's not always fun. It's expensive. It is mind numbing, physically exhausting, head bangingly frustrating and will suck out every ounce of energy, enthusiasm and joy you have in you at times. It is also the BEST decision I ever made in my life. My oldest two kids are such a joy. They have a zest for life and a love of learning that I know would have been destroyed in an institutional school setting. They are excelling in their university work. Their professors compliment their work ethic, knowledge and communications skills constantly. As my dd's history professor said recently, "How did you learn so much history?" :lol:

 

This makes me happier than you know, because I was always the parent in my homeschooling circle who was "mean". I made my kids work. They had to learn Latin for gosh sake. :D They diagrammed sentences. They did A LOT of math. They had to read a ton of books. They had a real microscope, bunsen burners, and their own disection tools. They worked when their other friends didn't. And it was worth every second. We also did lots of fun activities, field trips and read alouds. They kept nature notebooks and spent hours outside. In spring and fall, we did ALL of our schoolwork out of doors. But we did work.

 

I guess I would say that if any mother is concerned that her kids are behind, aren't doing enough work, or need to be more diligent, then she's probably right. If she thinks she's spending too much time on the internet, or on her Kindle, or scrapbooking, crafting, shopping...whatever...then she's probably right. We know what we need to do as homeschooling moms. The trick is doing it. :D

 

 

I'm also not referring to kids who have special challenges or learning disabilities. That is something entirely different. And I will admit that my standards of what is "behind" are based on my own schooling experience. I do have high expectations, but I know my kids are capable of meeting them. If they weren't...I would adjust to what they were capable of. I'm speaking solely of moms who really aren't giving it the old college try. Who say, "Oh well, that's good enough. Let's stop for the day. We have a busy afternoon. We'll do more school tomorrow." And tomorrow never comes.

 

I guess I'm sort of trying to launch a mini-expose on a certain mindset in homeschool circles. We can fail...spectacularly. I think we need to remember that homeschooling, in and of itself, is no guarantee of academic achievement. The failures/difficulties/struggles/agonies of homeschooling tend to get swept under the rug by so many homeschooling moms. I think we've idealized homeschooling in such a big way that we've become dismissive of just how hard and ugly it can get sometimes. And I think that is a terrible misrepresentation of what homeschooling really is.

 

Of course we all want it to be unicorns, rainbows, and glitter, with our children gathered around the table, beatific smiles on their freshly scrubbed faces, eagerly awaiting whatever tidbits of knowledge we are going to give them that day. We want them to enthusiastically approach every assignment and project with glee, so excited that they can't wait to get started. After all, we spent HOURS planning, buying, deliberating, shopping, etc. for this amazing curriculum...the least they can do is show some enthusiasm. But the reality is that most of the time they don't. In fact, a whole lot of the time, they want no part of it. So poor homeschooling mom thinks it must be some sort of failure on her part. The curriculum isn't a good fit. She's misunderstood Johnny's learning style. She didn't present the material correctly. She's a loser mom. So, because it's hard, homeschool mom decides she's going to skip math for a couple days to give Johnny (and herself) a break. Days turn into weeks. Weeks turn into months, and all of a sudden, Johnny is a full grade level behind. And not because of a lack of ability on his part.

 

I think the problem arises when Johnny's mom asks other homeschooling moms what they think about it, and she is told that it's ok. She doesn't need to worry about it. He'll get caught up. The important thing is that her son is home with her. He'll be fine.

 

We are not helping each other when we enable each other in this way.

 

Now, obviously, I'm not talking about berating other moms or scolding them in any way. But I think we need to be real. Homeschooling is HARD. It's not sitting around on the couch cuddled in a blanket, while everyone drinks cocoa and sits spellbound by the read aloud. Sometimes it can be like that. Sometimes nobody interrupts. Nobody spills the cocoa. Nobody puts their feet on their sibling...repeatedly. Nobody asks mom if she's almost finished. Sometimes mom can even get through an entire chapter without an interruption. Sometimes. :glare:

 

I think if we can really help one another and talk about the hard stuff, a lot of homeschool moms won't suffer in silence, thinking they're all alone in their journey, and that their kids are the only ones who don't approach a page of long division problems with squeals of joy.

 

Because I've seen the fruit of my labors, I can say with 100% certainty that homeschooling can be amazing. But it isn't for the faint of heart. It isn't for moms who aren't willing to take on the Herculean task of being solely responsible for the K-12 education of each of her children. We are doing what an entire school system would normally be responsible for. We are single-handedly doing the job that at least 100 people would normally be doing for your child over the course of his school career. But we do it because we are our children's mothers. We love them with a ferocity and intensity that they will never get from ten school districts combined. We want them to excel in life. We want to give them the best opportunities that the world has to offer them. We want them to make their own opportunities in life and take that world by storm. So we can each be amazing homeschooling moms!!

 

The only problem is we have to get out of our pajamas every morning, step away from the internet, and actually teach them. Reality can be so cruel. :lol:

 

:iagree:

 

THIS is why this forum continues to be my sanity-saver. :D

 

Brava!!!!!!

[Joanne]

Diane,

 

Thank you. As a former homeschooler, and in my role at a cottage school turned full 3-12, I see homeschooling failures each and every day.

 

I spent many years homeschooling defending against/denying that reality.

 

But it's TRUE. A signficicant and scary and embarassing number of homeschoolers have been failed.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I see the failed homeschoolers.

 

I also know functionally illiterate ps high school graduates, and young adults who can't apply for a job or make change even though they spent a dozen years in public schools. I know too many ps'ed young people who can't pass the ASVAB, can't pass the trades' apprenticeship application tests, or can't go to college. They are in exactly the same predicament as the failed homeschoolers I know. They're all entering adulthood with tremendous disadvantages.

 

I also know mothers who took their children out of school because their children couldn't read or write, and they know they are failing as homeschoolers, but what would be the point of putting them back into a system wherein they failed to learn anything but their own lack of worth? In school their children were untaught, bullied, and abused. At least at home, they can be loved and happy while failing. It's pretty hard to argue with that reasoning.

 

I think the most policing of our own that we can do occurs here on these boards. I agree with those who say WTM is a unique corner of Homeschool World, because we don't give a pass to everyone who wants to be told that not even trying is better than ps. And IRL we can mentor, model, and pray.

 

But we can't make a mother willing or able to do the work of homeschooling. I've tried and failed, and so have many others. It's either in her or it's not.

 

And we can't make the ps be a better option than it is. It's not a better option for everyone. Too many people have taken their kids out of ps in a bid to save their lives. Going back is not an option, even if Mom can't teach.

 

The bullying, low academic standards, gangs, drugs...in some places, the local high school is a hellhole and the kid is NOT better off, because he's not going to learn anything academic there, anyway. That is the reality in some American communities. We have to remember that, even as we face the truth about some homeschooling families.

 

I'm interested in charter schools. Also, in spite of HSLDA's efforts to marginalize virtual academies, I find myself more likely to recommend K12 than homeschooling when I hear of a parent dissatisfied with their local school. I don't tell everyone to homeschool. I've actually come to believe that only a few will really succeed at homeschooling. I don't tell homeschoolers to put their kids in ps, either. We need more options.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Alte Veste Academy]

I also know mothers who took their children out of school because their children couldn't read or write, and they know they are failing as homeschoolers, but what would be the point of putting them back into a system wherein they failed to learn anything but their own lack of worth? In school their children were untaught, bullied, and abused. At least at home, they can be loved and happy while failing. It's pretty hard to argue with that reasoning.

 

But we can't make a mother willing or able to do the work of homeschooling. I've tried and failed, and so have many others. It's either in her or it's not.

 

And we can't make the ps be a better option than it is. It's not a better option for everyone. Too many people have taken their kids out of ps in a bid to save their lives. Going back is not an option, even if Mom can't teach.

 

The bullying, low academic standards, gangs, drugs...in some places, the local high school is a hellhole and the kid is NOT better off, because he's not going to learn anything academic there, anyway. That is the reality in some American communities. We have to remember that, even as we face the truth about some homeschooling families.

 

I see the truth in this too. I think a fair number of "failed" homeschoolers are represented by this situation (although I could, in fact, argue with the reasoning of resigning oneself to failure pretty passionately...if I weren't tired of arguing, that is :tongue_smilie:).

 

I also know that many HS failures are not homeschoolers at all. They are just posers who give us all a bad name. I ran a teen court in a DFW suburb for a couple of years in the mid-90's and sat in on quite a few meetings of the school board and high school staff. The number of parents of kids ticketed for truancy who removed their middle and high schoolers to "homeschool" was staggering. I saw the kids ticketed repeatedly for truancy. I processed their paperwork. I saw them pulled out and "homeschooled." I talked to these kids at teen court. They were trouble-free, and getting better and better at sleeping in and playing video games every day. Those truancy tickets get expensive, and parents just can't keep missing work to make sure Junior gets to school. We all hear how easy it is to homeschool in Texas, with its lack of accountability. Makes it extraordinarily easy to give up the fight against truancy and remove a child from school.

Edited October 31, 2012 by Alte Veste Academy

[Alte Veste Academy]

Oh, I'm sure we do. I think you and I are usually in the same corner, Kristina. :001_smile:

 

You know, I tend to be very, um... Oppositional. So if everyone had some in this thread and said, "Don't worry about!" I probably would have been in here arguing that sometimes you do need to worry. :lol:

 

LOL Me too. Especially today. DS9 made me cranky with math. I thought we were over that hurdle. :glare:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

I also know that many HS failures are not homeschoolers at all. They are just posers who give us all a bad name. I ran a teen court in a DFW suburb for a couple of years in the mid-90's and sat in on quite a few meetings of the school board and high school staff. The number of parents of kids ticketed for truancy who removed their middle and high schoolers to "homeschool" was staggering. I saw the kids ticketed repeatedly for truancy. I processed their paperwork. I saw them pulled out and "homeschooled." I talked to these kids at teen court. They were trouble-free, and getting better and better at sleeping in and playing video games every day. Those truancy tickets get expensive, and parents just can't keep missing work to make sure Junior gets to school. We all hear how easy it is to homeschool in Texas, with its lack of accountability. Makes it extraordinarily easy to give up the fight against truancy and remove a child from school.

 

Oh, that's true. "Pushouts," in Indiana and Texas. I don't personally know any families in this situation, but I know that generally the pushout problem is not helping homeschooling's reputation.

[Farrar]

People here always seem to know more "bad" homeschoolers than I've ever met though. I know some homeschoolers whose methods I wouldn't personally adopt or who do things in a way that would never work for me, but every single homeschooler I know is doing their best by their kids and working pretty hard at it. And I know a lot of homeschoolers irl.

[brownie]

This may have been pointed out in this very long thread but...

SWB says if there is still a nagging issue by middle school that may be a LD, it is time to figure it out once and for all because it isn't going away.

 

But I have to say I spent the entire summer prior to 6th grade trying to figure out what is going on with my ds, and it can take a long time! So, I would start a bit sooner. 6th grade is really when the pedal hits the metal and there's no more time (sadly) for messing around, going on rabbit trails and constant field trips.

[EKS]

Thanks to everyone who has said nice things about my post! You made my day! :D

 

And to clarify, I am not the type of homeschooling mom who chained my kindy age kids to kitchen chairs and made them memorize math facts. :lol: Although I did contemplate it with a certain third grader at the time. :glare: I think I'm a fun homeschooling mom. We use Konos for goodness sake...I do Medieval feats and build castles out of appliance boxes! :D :D :D I'm also not referring to kids who have special challenges or learning disabilities. That is something entirely different. And I will admit that my standards of what is "behind" are based on my own schooling experience. I do have high expectations, but I know my kids are capable of meeting them. If they weren't...I would adjust to what they were capable of. I'm speaking solely of moms who really aren't giving it the old college try. Who say, "Oh well, that's good enough. Let's stop for the day. We have a busy afternoon. We'll do more school tomorrow." And tomorrow never comes.

 

I guess I'm sort of trying to launch a mini-expose on a certain mindset in homeschool circles. We can fail...spectacularly. I think we need to remember that homeschooling, in and of itself, is no guarantee of academic achievement. The failures/difficulties/struggles/agonies of homeschooling tend to get swept under the rug by so many homeschooling moms. I think we've idealized homeschooling in such a big way that we've become dismissive of just how hard and ugly it can get sometimes. And I think that is a terrible misrepresentation of what homeschooling really is.

 

Of course we all want it to be unicorns, rainbows, and glitter, with our children gathered around the table, beatific smiles on their freshly scrubbed faces, eagerly awaiting whatever tidbits of knowledge we are going to give them that day. We want them to enthusiastically approach every assignment and project with glee, so excited that they can't wait to get started. After all, we spent HOURS planning, buying, deliberating, shopping, etc. for this amazing curriculum...the least they can do is show some enthusiasm. But the reality is that most of the time they don't. In fact, a whole lot of the time, they want no part of it. So poor homeschooling mom thinks it must be some sort of failure on her part. The curriculum isn't a good fit. She's misunderstood Johnny's learning style. She didn't present the material correctly. She's a loser mom. So, because it's hard, homeschool mom decides she's going to skip math for a couple days to give Johnny (and herself) a break. Days turn into weeks. Weeks turn into months, and all of a sudden, Johnny is a full grade level behind. And not because of a lack of ability on his part.

 

I think the problem arises when Johnny's mom asks other homeschooling moms what they think about it, and she is told that it's ok. She doesn't need to worry about it. He'll get caught up. The important thing is that her son is home with her. He'll be fine.

 

We are not helping each other when we enable each other in this way.

 

Now, obviously, I'm not talking about berating other moms or scolding them in any way. But I think we need to be real. Homeschooling is HARD. It's not sitting around on the couch cuddled in a blanket, while everyone drinks cocoa and sits spellbound by the read aloud. Sometimes it can be like that. Sometimes nobody interrupts. Nobody spills the cocoa. Nobody puts their feet on their sibling...repeatedly. Nobody asks mom if she's almost finished. Sometimes mom can even get through an entire chapter without an interruption. Sometimes. :glare:

 

I think if we can really help one another and talk about the hard stuff, a lot of homeschool moms won't suffer in silence, thinking they're all alone in their journey, and that their kids are the only ones who don't approach a page of long division problems with squeals of joy.

 

Because I've seen the fruit of my labors, I can say with 100% certainty that homeschooling can be amazing. But it isn't for the faint of heart. It isn't for moms who aren't willing to take on the Herculean task of being solely responsible for the K-12 education of each of her children. We are doing what an entire school system would normally be responsible for. We are single-handedly doing the job that at least 100 people would normally be doing for your child over the course of his school career. But we do it because we are our children's mothers. We love them with a ferocity and intensity that they will never get from ten school districts combined. We want them to excel in life. We want to give them the best opportunities that the world has to offer them. We want them to make their own opportunities in life and take that world by storm. So we can each be amazing homeschooling moms!!

 

The only problem is we have to get out of our pajamas every morning, step away from the internet, and actually teach them. Reality can be so cruel. :lol:

 

This would be yet another of the best posts on homeschooling I've ever read!

[Meriwether]

Oh, that's true. "Pushouts," in Indiana and Texas. I don't personally know any families in this situation, but I know that generally the pushout problem is not helping homeschooling's reputation.

 

 

The first time I heard about something like this, my MIL was telling me about her school district. When kids wanted to drop out as 16yos, they were encouraged to homeschool so that it wouldn't affect the school's dropout rate.

[Mommy22alyns]

Faith, Diane, Tibbie... lots of wisdom here. Thank you for your words of experience!

[EKS]

SWB says if there is still a nagging issue by middle school that may be a LD, it is time to figure it out once and for all because it isn't going away.

 

 

This is true. However, if it is an LD you really want to know well before middle school. For example, first or second grade would be a good time. It takes a long, long time to remediate an LD.

[Joanne]

I also know functionally illiterate ps high school graduates, and young adults who can't apply for a job or make change even though they spent a dozen years in public schools. I know too many ps'ed young people who can't pass the ASVAB, can't pass the trades' apprenticeship application tests, or can't go to college. They are in exactly the same predicament as the failed homeschoolers I know. They're all entering adulthood with tremendous disadvantages.

 

 

I teach a college class to many of these kids. They are seemingly average, normal kids.

 

We are doing a unit on plagiarism. On Monday, I asked how many of them had EVER done a research or any kind of paper that used footnotes or endnotes.

 

Out of 26 students...........care to guess?

[Spy Car]

This may have been pointed out in this very long thread but...

SWB says if there is still a nagging issue by middle school that may be a LD, it is time to figure it out once and for all because it isn't going away.

 

This is true. However, if it is an LD you really want to know well before middle school. For example, first or second grade would be a good time. It takes a long, long time to remediate an LD.

 

:iagree:

 

In fact it strike me as breathtakingly late to "discover" a learning disability in Middle School. It would be far better to pick this up in pre-school and start dealing with it then. Brains can be re-routed when intervention strategies are employed earlier, and the earlier the better.

 

Thinking one will pick up and act on LDs when students are teen-agers strikes me as bizarre.

 

Bill

[swellmomma]

:iagree:

 

In fact it strike me as breathtakingly late to "discover" a learning disability in Middle School. It would be far better to pick this up in pre-school and start dealing with it then. Brains can be re-routed when intervention strategies are employed earlier, and the earlier the better.

 

Thinking one will pick up and act on LDs when students are teen-agers strikes me as bizarre.

 

Bill

 

I don't know what it is like where you live but out here unless a child has profound delays there is no screening beyond speech or basic vision if a parent asks for it before elementary age. If your child is in ps they like to give the child a whole semester or more before even starting testing. Which puts the child at 6-7 years old. Which is certainly not preschool but not a teen either. Homeschoolers have a whole different set of issues. A) Many dr's will not refer you to the proper people to complete assessments if you homeschool because you do not have an impartial 3rd party (aka a teacher) to verify that little johnny is struggling with school work. B) even if you get said referral the "expert" you are sent to tells you to put your child in ps to determine if they are really struggling or not and then you would have that 3rd party assessment before they continue with any formal testing. and C) Even if you manage to finally get the testing done most services available are not available unless you put your kid into ps.

 

My older 2 were in ps when they got assessed and Dx with their issues, so we started hsing knowing they had specific struggles. With ds9 it has been a never ending circling to get help. We know from his PT, OT and Visual assessments a long list of his issues. All 3 have said they can not continue working with him on those issues until his adhd is managed. Person responsibly for Dx and treating adhd out here will not even do a formal assessment for it until either I put him into school and the teacher demands is or his other LD are "cured" and he can prove whether his issues are only those things or adhd as well. The SLP, OT and VT do not count as a 3rd party to set the ball in motion for testing for the adhd, yet none will work with him any more until he is treated for it. They have done all they can do with him until he can focus his attention. So here he is 9 yrs old, and I am having to figure out remediation on my own. Yes I know there is issues there, and in fact given the set of LD he has I suspect it is actually PDD-NOS rather than several individual issues. But he can not be full assessed and treated. However once he is a teen the game changes. Then it is no longer considered a parent looking to Dx their kid, but a teen looking to take charge of their own health and they can get more testing and such available to them without needing that 3rd party anymore. That makes it more likely for a teen to be Dx and remediated formally. The family likely had their suspicions all along but nothing definitely Dx until the child became a teen. It is not because the parent's dropped the ball, but rather because of red tape and "experts" thinking ps is the cure all for what ails you and falsely assume that a child is struggling to learn at home simple because they are at home, not because they have an actual LD.

 

We got as much Dx on ds9 because he has been getting treated for speech delays since 3 years old. when we moved the new SLP we met called in the OT in her office for a consult because she saw bigger issues than just speech(something the old SLP would not do), the 2 together referred us to a dev opthamologist which helped us discover a huge issue ds has. All 3 have individually commented on him having adhd. If we still lived in the city we wouldn't have even gotten these Dx and the help he got up until this point.

[NASDAQ]

I think the trend is towards earlier identification of learning disabilities -- definitely before middle school. Maybe as late as third grade?

 

Also, in nearly every case of LD I've known, the _parent_ knew way, way before middle school. Sometimes the school or medical establishment dragged its feet. But the parents knew something was up, almost always in first or second grade and very often before that.

[AimeeM]

This is true. However, if it is an LD you really want to know well before middle school. For example, first or second grade would be a good time. It takes a long, long time to remediate an LD.

I want to address this for a second. When Autumn was in brick and mortar, her second grade teacher "suspected" an issue, but we were told it was inadvisable to pursue until later in elementary school - first, second, or even third grade is considered too young to address issues that may just be age appropriate *issues*. For example, my dd's teacher was formally employed as a special needs teacher at another school - while she was moderately concerned about dd's writing, she said transposing letters and reversals were still a normal part of development on some level and advised us to just keep an eye out for it and that she wouldn't necessarily agree with a dx being made at that young an age.

[Spy Car]

I don't know what it is like where you live but out here unless a child has profound delays there is no screening beyond speech or basic vision if a parent asks for it before elementary age.

 

Here there are programs available as early as infancy because it is well understood acting early is in the best interests of children. I am not expert in knowing all the limitations that might exist (there are no doubt some) but the overall push is to start helping children long before they start school whenever possible.

 

Bill

[wapiti]

I don't know what it is like where you live but out here unless a child has profound delays there is no screening beyond speech or basic vision if a parent asks for it before elementary age.

FWIW, I'm not sure if any school or state screens for vision. But, as a public service announcement, evaluations for kids under 3 y.o. are available in all states through the state's Early Intervention program, including OT, PT, speech of course, and other services. EI addresses more medical issues, whereas school districts limit their services to academic issues and over 3 y.o. Our district has various levels of evaluations, but even my ds9, whose IEP only includes speech at the moment, gets IQ testing once every three years. He and his twin brother had evaluations at 3 y.o. with the district's full special ed team for pre-K, which included speech, OT, social worker and psych (though that was more preliminary and did not include the IQ testing at that time - too young).

 

Homeschoolers and special ed services, however, are a whole 'nother ball of wax.

Edited October 31, 2012 by wapiti

[Sisyphus]

I think many valid points have been raised in this thread, but I'd like to point out one that has been missed. Some behind kids are behind because they learn slower, have lds, and struggle. Those kids would be behind in ps, too, but through home schooling can get the attention they need to get at least a better education. This is us.

 

I've spent a lot of time wondering how it can happen that out of 2 kids, I have 2 kids with issues, but by now, it's just life. Still seems mighty unfair thoug.:lol: my oldest has Tourettes and pdd- nos...but neither is enough to get any help at school, because he reads and does math on grade level (and reads slightly above). But his time in ps was a waste, because his issues mean he gets the bare minimum of an education. With focused help for organization, synthesizing ideas (so hard for him!), someone to force him to read something other than science fiction, he can and does learn. Just not as well as many kids his age, though he is and always has been on "grade level", he is not a genius or the academic wunderkind so many think a home schooler should be. He's average, through sheer willpower on my part.

 

Enter Ds 2, with severe add and an ld. But again- school does a remedial reading program, he reads at grade level, viola, he's fixed. :confused: at 11 reading is finally fluent, but still so hard, and honestly, it's always going to be. Schools do make accommodations, but I can do more at home. He is this year finally on level, if the low side.

 

So some of those behind kids- their parents might know. They might even home school for just that reason but not tell others (or their kids!). They might be working incredibly hard to push, pull and drag their children into something resembling a coherent education when the family moves nearly every year, and no one in the ps system seems to care about their child because they are not behavior problems. it's easy to say "well, I'd never!" but the reality can be quite different. By home schooling at least my boys have their self esteem somewhat intact, and that alone has been worth any lost benefit they may have had academically by being home. Believe me, we work very, very hard, and yes, this is just where they are. I am sure it isn't just me with kids like this, and I'm also sure like me, others don't announce it. No one in my real life even knows about my kids learning issues except their doctor and a few kids my son knows who know he takes Meds for add. Perhaps I am the behind home schooler people see?

 

I don't mean this to sound all defensive (it does, reading it!) as I don't mean it to be. I just want to point out that sometimes, what you think you see is not what is real. And the alternative of public school would be even worse for the situation. There are some fantastic private schools my kids could excel at right here where we just moved, but we could never afford them, even if I got 2 jobs, and somehow, it's worse having them available but unreachable! So I guess options do exist...but not any we can access. We're just doing the best we can, and I have a feeling many others are, too.