When is behind "really" behind?

[LucyStoner]

I think your average 5th grader could easily learn the reading and arithmetic from grades K - 4 in about a month, especially if tutored (ie. home-schooled).

I really didn't see this in high school at all. Many of my classmates had been lovingly and interestingly raised by educated parents who did hs or unschooling and eschewed basic academics. I can think of none who entered several grade levels behind or with poor reading skills who rose to the same level as those of us who read fluently and could do math at least at grade level. The divide was stark. There were only a handful who had been really neglected- most had parents doing at least some of the things idealized by delayed academic proponents while the kids were at home. I went to a total hippie high school so there were ALOT of former homeschoolers (including me, essentially unschooled for middle school with mostly self directed reading and a smattering of math and cello and church). Who wants to be playing catch up on basics when your peers are writing plays and doing engineering internships, running radio shows, and building boats?

 

The Sudbury model that you will learn it all at once when you want/need to does not always pan out. I think parents owe kids a groundwork for academic success. They might not need to be top in every subject but they need to be able to read, write and do basic math to really delve into the opportunities and studies of high school.

 

I taught myself much advanced math in high school because my teacher annoyed me to no end. I would not have been able to do that if I was struggling with factoring or decimals or fractions. I wrote a lot and even had some shorts and poems published. Had I been struggling to learn to read or write, again that would not have been possible.

[Spy Car]

I think many valid points have been raised in this thread, but I'd like to point out one that has been missed. Some behind kids are behind because they learn slower, have lds, and struggle. Those kids would be behind in ps, too, but through home schooling can get the attention they need to get at least a better education. This is us.

 

I've spent a lot of time wondering how it can happen that out of 2 kids, I have 2 kids with issues, but by now, it's just life. Still seems mighty unfair thoug.:lol: my oldest has Tourettes and pdd- nos...but neither is enough to get any help at school, because he reads and does math on grade level (and reads slightly above). But his time in ps was a waste, because his issues mean he gets the bare minimum of an education. With focused help for organization, synthesizing ideas (so hard for him!), someone to force him to read something other than science fiction, he can and does learn. Just not as well as many kids his age, though he is and always has been on "grade level", he is not a genius or the academic wunderkind so many think a home schooler should be. He's average, through sheer willpower on my part.

 

Enter Ds 2, with severe add and an ld. But again- school does a remedial reading program, he reads at grade level, viola, he's fixed. :confused: at 11 reading is finally fluent, but still so hard, and honestly, it's always going to be. Schools do make accommodations, but I can do more at home. He is this year finally on level, if the low side.

 

So some of those behind kids- their parents might know. They might even home school for just that reason but not tell others (or their kids!). They might be working incredibly hard to push, pull and drag their children into something resembling a coherent education when the family moves nearly every year, and no one in the ps system seems to care about their child because they are not behavior problems. it's easy to say "well, I'd never!" but the reality can be quite different. By home schooling at least my boys have their self esteem somewhat intact, and that alone has been worth any lost benefit they may have had academically by being home. Believe me, we work very, very hard, and yes, this is just where they are. I am sure it isn't just me with kids like this, and I'm also sure like me, others don't announce it. No one in my real life even knows about my kids learning issues except their doctor and a few kids my son knows who know he takes Meds for add. Perhaps I am the behind home schooler people see?

 

I don't mean this to sound all defensive (it does, reading it!) as I don't mean it to be. I just want to point out that sometimes, what you think you see is not what is real. And the alternative of public school would be even worse for the situation. There are some fantastic private schools my kids could excel at right here where we just moved, but we could never afford them, even if I got 2 jobs, and somehow, it's worse having them available but unreachable! So I guess options do exist...but not any we can access. We're just doing the best we can, and I have a feeling many others are, too.

 

Parents, like you, who see that their children have needs that won't be met by the public schools and take matters into their own hands to give their children a better life and better education than they otherwise would, are heroes in my book!

 

Bill

[Joanne]

I think many valid points have been raised in this thread, but I'd like to point out one that has been missed. Some behind kids are behind because they learn slower, have lds, and struggle. Those kids would be behind in ps, too, but through home schooling can get the attention they need to get at least a better education. This is us.

 

.

 

That hasn't been missed at all. Each page has some caveat about learning disabilities.:confused:

[cloversandlions]

I would say, based on personal experience and what I have seen in other homeschooled kids, that if there has to be catch-up work done, I would aim to have everything in place by the end of middle school so that they can approach high school with all the needed skills in place.

 

I agree.

Edited October 31, 2012 by WorkInProgress

[NASDAQ]

Sisyphus, but you don't think "oh, n/m, it will work itself out." You see issues and you are clearly moving heaven and earth to deal with them. Totally different situation than if I tell myself, gee, my NT kids can do whatever this year before they'll catch on in a few years.

 

Of course no one can look at another family from afar and say that the home schooling mum is slacking just because her kids aren't up-to-date. There could be any number of things going on. But what most people are saying is that it _is_ possible to slack, and slacking is a bad thing. If anything, it's a worse thing when the child has learning difficulties and needs parental intervention that much more.

 

One of the things I've sometimes heard from parents of kids with LDs is that they felt they were sold a bill of goods. Back when their kids were five or six or seven, they were telling school/doctors/homeschool parents that something wasn't progressing well with dc. They got told to wait, they were being unrealistic, the kid will do it when he's ready. Then the child is eight, nine years old, the parent has missed years worth of opportunities for remediation, and now it's obvious that the parent's instinct was right all along.

[FairProspects]

Here there are programs available as early as infancy because it is well understood acting early is in the best interests of children. I am not expert in knowing all the limitations that might exist (there are no doubt some) but the overall push is to start helping children long before they start school whenever possible.

 

Bill

 

Yes, but if you are talking about Early Intervention, you age out at 3 and it only catches the most severe issues, not the subtle ones (which can still cause major problems with learning later). And having been through the school district's evaluation twice after age 3, my ds passed every single section both times. He was in the highest reading group in his PS K class. No teacher or specialist said anything about him needing additional help or possibly having LDs. All our diagnoses came from me pushing for evaluations b/c I felt that something was off. The school district evaluations have kids falling through the cracks all the time.

 

It is completely possible to have a "stealth dyslexic" and not know it before the work load demand ramps up in late elementary or even later.

Edited October 31, 2012 by FairProspects

[razorbackmama]

One of the things I've sometimes heard from parents of kids with LDs is that they felt they were sold a bill of goods. Back when their kids were five or six or seven, they were telling school/doctors/homeschool parents that something wasn't progressing well with dc. They got told to wait, they were being unrealistic, the kid will do it when he's ready. Then the child is eight, nine years old, the parent has missed years worth of opportunities for remediation, and now it's obvious that the parent's instinct was right all along.

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Alte Veste Academy]

People here always seem to know more "bad" homeschoolers than I've ever met though. I know some homeschoolers whose methods I wouldn't personally adopt or who do things in a way that would never work for me, but every single homeschooler I know is doing their best by their kids and working pretty hard at it. And I know a lot of homeschoolers irl.

 

Hmmm. This makes me think a poll is in order. I don't know what the requirements are to homeschool in D.C. (my whisper of a memory hints at fairly strict requirements?), but I have lived in Texas for most of my adult life and worked in or with Texas public schools for years before I became a mom. It is notoriously easy to homeschool there. I wonder if I knew more "bad" homeschoolers because there are actually more of them in states with very little oversight. Makes sense to me. In states with lots of oversight, testing requirements, portfolio review, etc., maybe only the serious sign on?

 

I have had several friends over the years who started homeschooling because it seemed ideal and quit when it was not all fun...or easy. I have been convicted about homeschooling since before I had children. I have made a serious commitment to the endeavor, to my children. Over the years, I have spent enormous amounts of time preparing myself for the task, mostly reading--about philosophy, methods, learning styles, curriculum design. I've read an incredible amount of history, science, poetry, writing supplements, math philosophy... You name it, I think I've read about it. :lol: But my self-education is mostly private and not something I typically chat about with acquaintances or even most homeschoolers I know (heck, I hold back sometimes even here, to be honest) because so many people just think it's crazy or that I'm obsessive or a pusher (so not a pusher) or elitist or (we're talking Texas, mind you) faaancy. :tongue_smilie: None of those things are true but what is true is that I take this seriously. I do not try to sell it to people. Still, my confidence, contentment, and unflagging conviction about my choice to homeschool almost silently sold it to a few of my friends, even though I purposefully spoke to them frankly about the challenges and frustrations inherent to the choice. But, again, in Texas it is a decision that is easy to take lightly, so I wonder if it's possible that it's too easy. I don't know. I don't want more oversight, personally. But I do feel that it might help not a small number of kids. I saw stuff, man. :tongue_smilie:

 

Anyway, if anyone wants to do a poll about the relationship between homeschool laws and how many "bad" homeschoolers we've met, I'm all ears. :D

[ebunny]

Homeschooling is HARD. It's not sitting around on the couch cuddled in a blanket, while everyone drinks cocoa and sits spellbound by the read aloud. Sometimes it can be like that. Sometimes nobody interrupts. Nobody spills the cocoa. Nobody puts their feet on their sibling...repeatedly. Nobody asks mom if she's almost finished. Sometimes mom can even get through an entire chapter without an interruption. Sometimes. :glare:

 

I think if we can really help one another and talk about the hard stuff, a lot of homeschool moms won't suffer in silence, thinking they're all alone in their journey, and that their kids are the only ones who don't approach a page of long division problems with squeals of joy.

 

Because I've seen the fruit of my labors, I can say with 100% certainty that homeschooling can be amazing. But it isn't for the faint of heart. It isn't for moms who aren't willing to take on the Herculean task of being solely responsible for the K-12 education of each of her children. We are doing what an entire school system would normally be responsible for. We are single-handedly doing the job that at least 100 people would normally be doing for your child over the course of his school career. But we do it because we are our children's mothers. We love them with a ferocity and intensity that they will never get from ten school districts combined. We want them to excel in life. We want to give them the best opportunities that the world has to offer them. We want them to make their own opportunities in life and take that world by storm. So we can each be amazing homeschooling moms!!

 

The only problem is we have to get out of our pajamas every morning, step away from the internet, and actually teach them. Reality can be so cruel. :lol:

 

 

BRAVO! Awesome post.:thumbup:

[Soror]

I think the thoughts irt "bad hs'ers" are very apt. Not everyone does a good job. Not all hs'ers do better than ps'ers. Hs'ing by default is not superior. I've posted on here before about concern for a dear friend who was terribly inconsistent and ignoring some huge flashing signs of learning issues. I was chastised by many to mind my own business. I didn't. I was persistent in making suggestions to try and help her with addressing the learning issues and her own inconsistency. They've made huge strides and I'm not sorry in the least I spoke up.

 

I do however think these are a bit out of place in the context of this personal thread on this subject. I've read many posts by the OP, along with her own blog posts. She is not one of those lazy hs moms described earlier. She has not ignored learning issues but has been, from all I can tell, working very hard to help her son through these limitations. I've seen numerous posts of hers describing researching and implementing various curriculum and teaching methods and outside evaluation as well. Besides the fact that depending on what scope and sequence you look at the skills her kids are at and their ages by many standards they wouldn't be considered behind anyway.

 

I did however post that I thought it was worth looking harder at actual time spent schooling to honestly evaluate whether she was working hard enough and consistently enough. Some people self-regulate well, some tend to do too much and some too little. Being that there has been no actual schedule posted I don't think there can be a certain assessment of where the OP lies in this.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I do however think these are a bit out of place in the context of this personal thread on this subject. I've read many posts by the OP, along with her own blog posts. She is not one of those lazy hs moms described earlier. She has not ignored learning issues but has been, from all I can tell, working very hard to help her son through these limitations. I've seen numerous posts of hers describing researching and implementing various curriculum and teaching methods and outside evaluation as well. Besides the fact that depending on what scope and sequence you look at the skills her kids are at and their ages by many standards they wouldn't be considered behind anyway.

 

Yes, the thread has snowballed and morphed into a discussion that is no longer specific too the OP. I think it was about 5 pages back that I made it clear that my posts were no longer about her. She's been around a while and surely knows how threads sometimes take on a life of their own. It's just the nature of the beast sometimes. To be sure, I do not think of the OP as a "bad" HSer. I think her position was thoughtfully considered and that the adjustments she is considering are indicative of a proactive approach.

[Soror]

Yes, I hope that is clear but I thought it good that it was stated in case there was any confusion about those things.

[elegantlion]

I think there are different markers along the way. What may be developmentally okay in 3rd grade, may end up a deficit by 5th grade. I came to this board specifically when I got some of the "it's okay, just keep doing what you're doing" advice on a different board. Well, it wasn't okay. I knew ds was having some delays and I needed help on how to remedy it. This was in 3rd grade when he wasn't reading well.

 

Because he was a delayed reader I knew writing would be delayed. However, I think homeschooling affords us a great opportunity to work around delays and deficits. He was ahead in science and history, he could think and comprehend at a much higher level. So I read a lot to him. A delay in one area doesn't have to turn into a delay in another area. At one point his abilities spanned about 5 grade levels, public school would have been a disaster.

 

I also think there is an illusion that once they catch onto something they will magically catch up. Some kids can. In our case, writing has been a huge slog for the last few years. I can't expect high school writing level out of him because he hasn't built the foundation. He's much better than two years ago, but there hasn't been this huge leap in abilities.

 

In our case we opted not to do testing because most of the delays were mild. I did read a billion pages, books, etc on dyslexia, VSL, and how to remediate and structure proper learning for him. If I had waited much passed 6th grade, there would have been huge deficits and the pressure of preparing for high school. Now that gap is closing. If he didn't make some progress, we would have looked into testing.

 

So, I don't think there is one spot for all markers. I do think you need to be aware of learning ranges and know where your child is on them. Regular personal evaluations of their ability should be happening. Once we realized ds had a reading delay, it made his K year in private school make sense. The teacher would send reading/writing papers home undone. We all thought it was because he was talking, he loves to talk. No, it was because he didn't understand them and wouldn't ask for help. It was easier just to talk with your friend sitting next to you. When I'd help him at home, he got it, so we didn't expect a delay.

[Rivka]

Here there are programs available as early as infancy because it is well understood acting early is in the best interests of children. I am not expert in knowing all the limitations that might exist (there are no doubt some) but the overall push is to start helping children long before they start school whenever possible.

 

Sure, there are some difficulties and disabilities that can be, and are, addressed through 0-3 early intervention programs: things like vision problems, hearing problems, speech problems, autistic spectrum disorders, cerebral palsy, etc.

 

But there are other difficulties that are just not identifiable in very young children, like dyslexia and other specific learning disabilities. There is a very broad range of normal in the development of math and literacy skills, attention/focus, and fine motor development. You can't really sort out a dyslexic three-year-old from a three-year-old who will have perfectly good letter recognition after another year or two of maturation. You also can't necessarily sort out children who haven't had exposure to early learning concepts from children who lack ability in those areas.

[Spy Car]

Sure, there are some difficulties and disabilities that can be, and are, addressed through 0-3 early intervention programs: things like vision problems, hearing problems, speech problems, autistic spectrum disorders, cerebral palsy, etc.

 

But there are other difficulties that are just not identifiable in very young children, like dyslexia and other specific learning disabilities. There is a very broad range of normal in the development of math and literacy skills, attention/focus, and fine motor development. You can't really sort out a dyslexic three-year-old from a three-year-old who will have perfectly good letter recognition after another year or two of maturation. You also can't necessarily sort out children who haven't had exposure to early learning concepts from children who lack ability in those areas.

 

Which is why one would hope those who have problems than can be identified early are identified early, andit reinforces the ideal that children are exposed to appropriate early learning in part to help identify if they have problems that can be helped though intervention.

 

Needless delay is to no ones benefit.

 

Bill

[*Lulu*]

Which is why one would hope those who have problems than can be identified early are identified early, andit reinforces the ideal that children are exposed to appropriate early learning in part to help identify if they have problems that can be helped though intervention.

 

Needless delay is to no ones benefit.

 

Bill

 

I agree especially with the bolded statement. I also know that, with the exception of some specially trained SPED teachers, most teachers are basing their recommendations for referrals mainly on experience. IME, students with glaring educational deficits will likely be referred while students who are marginal will most likely be missed, even if there is evidence that "something" is off, even if the parent is saying their student needs help.

 

I took all the required SPED training/coursework for my degree/certification and worked primarily with students who were behind, many if them due to LDs in the years before I left the workforce. Even with my training and experience DS was almost 8 before we realized "something" was wrong, was 9 before we began to figure out what the problem was, and was 10 before we were able to convince a pediatrician that we needed intervention.

 

I think, as many have pointed out in this thread, there are degrees of behind and it is very easy for something that resembles an ability on the low end of normal to morph into an issue in need of intervention. Early childhood intervention in this country is relatively easy to obtain because it is funded and pushed. Intervention after K is much trickier to obtain both in and out of the public educational system.

[abrightmom]

Diane,

 

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for expressing in your two posts things I have been struggling with and worrying about. Most homeschoolers that I know in IRL look at me like I have three heads when they find out how rigorous my dd's home school day is. This past year (2nd) I listened to them and slacked off. Unfortunately now I feel like the OP and am trying to make up ground. We should be able to catch up to where I want to be by the end of this year (3rd grade). I am going to print out your two posts and put them on my fridge. It was just the kind of testimony I needed to hear after a year of listening to my friends instead of my gut. Advice like yours is what makes his board invaluable to me as a home schooling mom!

 

Thank you again. :001_smile:

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Catching up on this thread. Diane, thank-you. I agree with you and I am so.darn.sick of "feel good platitudes" that fly around home schooling circles and deceive well intentioned but inexperienced Moms who are not pulling their weight. Blech. I KNOW I slacked off in 3rd grade and now I am working HARD to turn a corner with my oldest.

 

Like Chelli, I'm printing and saving these posts. Timely for me.

[Terabith]

I have known my youngest has issues since she was 2.5, and I've known that she has learning disabilities since probably 4.5, definitely before five. I took her to the school system (twice), and each time they tested her and saw big discrepancies, but because her overall achievement was in the average range, there was nothing that they could do. The recommendation was to not work with her, put her in public school, and probably in about two years she would fail enough to qualify for help. I took her to a developmental pediatrician at age five, who dx her with anxiety and medicated her, which did help. They tested her and saw huge discrepancies and said perhaps she might qualify for a dx in a few years, but again, it was labeled a "relative weakness." I have known for yrs that she has issues, but I don't know what those issues are precisely, nor do I have any clue how to help them. It is extremely frustrating. We have a neuropsych eval in December, and I'm praying that he will tell us what we can do, but I feel like I'm stumbling around trying to do the best I can. I'm confident that I'm doing a better job than the public schools would, simply because I can work one on one and due to the fact that she doesn't qualify for anything. But it is so frustrating. I've known forever, and it doesn't seem to help.