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The same with PTG. PTG is *liberating*. It affirms the truth that predators give you information that says "predator". It explains *why* back in 1974, you felt weird about that guy at church who became friends with your family. It explains how culturalization puts you (and children) at risk. All kids are told "be polite", "be nice" and this ultimately serves to mute the danger/radar signals.

 

The "be nice" script is especially true for girls.

 

I agree. Girls are *often* afraid to assert themselves for fear of being rude or hurting someone. How often in our lives do we hear, "don't you trust me," when you have no business trusting the person in question. Why should I trust you? I don't know you.

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If your child was showing visible reluctance to a hug or saying no to a hug from you, would you force one? If so, why? Do you think that your need for a hug is more important or takes priority over your child's need to be separate from you or to have their own feelings respected?

 

Sometimes they are busy. Sometimes they are off playing and I'm about to leave for the weekend. So I tell them, 'hey, I'm leaving, come give me a hug!'

They then do so. But according to what I'm seeing here, at could be construed as forcing them to hug me. :confused:

And really? 'My need for a hug?' What a terrible parent I must be.... When you were leaving for a weekend, or for a week long trip, would you not ask your kids to come give you a hug goodbye? Really? :glare: I guess to me, I'd rather leave them with a hug and a reminder of how much I love them, since we never know what could happen when we walk out the front door.

Granted, my kids have never been 'reluctant' to give me a hug. But they have been doing other things at the time, causing me to let them know I'm leaving, etc, and based on what this thread has said, me even asking for a hug (or putting my arm around my 6 year old when he is next to me in line at the store) could be construed as inappropriate. :001_huh:

Maybe I'm misreading, but that just seems bizarre.

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There is a big, big difference between "grandparents aren't allowed to hug the children" and children shouldn't be FORCED to hug grandparents. We are talking about the latter, not the former.

 

I meant, when the children show reluctance, I thought that's what we were talking about. Sometimes kids just have an attitude. I assume we are talking about grandparents who have been "vetted" and parents should ideally be safe, and even in these situations we aren't supposed to "force" our children to give us or them hugs. That does seem a bit overboard to me, although I have rarely had any of my children outright refuse to give hugs (although I can see a couple of my more difficult children doing that when they are just being angry and having an attitude).

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Sometimes they are busy. Sometimes they are off playing and I'm about to leave for the weekend. So I tell them, 'hey, I'm leaving, come give me a hug!'

They then do so. But according to what I'm seeing here, at could be construed as forcing them to hug me. :confused:

And really? 'My need for a hug?' What a terrible parent I must be.... When you were leaving for a weekend, or for a week long trip, would you not ask your kids to come give you a hug goodbye? Really? :glare: I guess to me, I'd rather leave them with a hug and a reminder of how much I love them, since we never know what could happen when we walk out the front door.

Granted, my kids have never been 'reluctant' to give me a hug. But they have been doing other things at the time, causing me to let them know I'm leaving, etc, and based on what this thread has said, me even asking for a hug (or putting my arm around my 6 year old when he is next to me in line at the store) could be construed as inappropriate. :001_huh:

Maybe I'm misreading, but that just seems bizarre.

 

If you asked them to give you a hug, and they replied they really didn't want to, would you force them anyway?

 

I've had my kids say they really didn't want to hug a relative or grandparent, and I respect their wishes and don't force them to. Asking for a hug is not forcing. Demanding they still give a hug when they don't want to is not ok, imo.

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Why do people bother arguing with Bill? It's like arguing with a teenaged girl who just wants to argue.

 

Clearly he has not been molested (not that I'm wishing that upon anyone!) and has not had his feelings about someone being a "tricky person" ignored. I teach my children that they do not have to let anyone touch them (except my husband and I, of course. I'm not going to let them decide not to be escorted to bed if they want to stay up and watch TV :) ) If my child doesn't want to hug someone I won't make them. Because I want them to trust their own instincts and be allowed to say "no."

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And, although I am not going to engage with the poster anymore, the fact that I don't support suggesting, encouraging, or forcing children to offer or accept physical affection does not equal support of a cold, unaffectionate family culture. A stand protecting a child's right to autonomy in regard to affection is not synymous with "cold", "unaffectionate", or "standoffish".

 

The point is *choice* and since kids generally respond to social cues, their needs, the needs of others, and have much spontaneous joy to share, they usually do share it, often in the form of affection.

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I live rurally too in a county with a very, very low crime rate and the reality is that women still do just as Martha mentioned. Seriously! I can't imagine NOT doing that. One of the teen girls in this neighborhood was violently minor and she was able to finish walking home. She'd been stranded coming home from a school dance by an overheating car engine...she was one mile from home in a town in which nothing ever happens in a county in which nothing ever happens. She was NOT prepped for self-defense, she didn't have a cell phone, and she had been conditioned to believe it is safe to be 16, female, and walking along the road after dark in this area.

 

Not thanks. I don't live in fear and paranoia. I do live with a healthy sense of not taking unnecessary risks, being alert, following my instincts, and being VERY careful. I refuse to make the life altering assumption that assault is something that only happens to women who live in the city.

 

Of course, I'm probably even more jaded by the fact that dd is a paramedic and some of the situations she has had to deal with, some of the patients she has had to treat....women, teen girls, little boys.....it's sickening and far more prevalent than most would like to admit.

 

Faith

 

I cannot think of the last time I walked by myself anywhere. If I'm in a parking lot at night it is generally with someone. My husband worked nights for years as well I was used to him being gone at night. I don't think assault only happens in the city but crime rates do vary in different places. We live somewhat close to a big city which has a sky high crime rate and I wouldn't go to certain areas there by myself, although dh wouldn't either. The same thing with certain areas in town that are known to be higher drug and crime rate, but then again I don't have any reason to go there. Mostly if we go somewhere it is to places that are very public with good lighting. If going out by myself I try to make sure I have my phone. But then again

 

My life is pretty simple. I am mostly at home and if we are out it is generally with family. I don't have a lot of neighbors, none for a mile on one side and then the in-laws on the others. I don't generally ever travel at night by myself as I just don't have an occasion or reason to do so. So, no I cannot think of the last time I had a reason to feel fear in those situations as I am just usually not in those situations. I would say it the same for most of my good friends.

 

As far as being cautious I don't believe our (my family) takes any unnecessary risk or such. No one is ever completely protected though, no matter your gender or such.

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I meant, when the children show reluctance, I thought that's what we were talking about. Sometimes kids just have an attitude. I assume we are talking about grandparents who have been "vetted" and parents should ideally be safe, and even in these situations we aren't supposed to "force" our children to give us or them hugs. That does seem a bit overboard to me, although I have rarely had any of my children outright refuse to give hugs (although I can see a couple of my more difficult children doing that when they are just being angry and having an attitude).

 

Are you, as an adult, forced to offer physical affection when you don't want to?

 

In the situation described above, I'd go very, very far to protect my child's right to not share their physical space regardless of the safety or vetting of the other person. My child has the right to say "no" to physical affection and it doesn't have to be a big, dramatic deal. It is safe for them to not want to go there. And I would never frame that as "attitude."

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I agree with you about paranoia, but I'm betting you do have fear all the time and don't even recognize it.

 

Women are nervous about walking home ir to their car alone at night in a way that men simply are not.

 

Women get nervous about unlocked doors or open windows at night for reasons men do not.

 

Women worry about their daughters dating for reason they don't about their sons.

 

We hold our keys on those walks to the car differently than men do. (heck they might not even hold their keys ready!)

 

These things are such a part of being a woman that most women don't even think about it until those moments when they feel uncomfortable bc they find themselves feeling unprotected. We all do it. And we all raise our daughters to do it to.

 

Of course that's not to say men and boys don't worry about assault or whatever, but most men don't go for a walk and get nervous when they realize it's getting dark and no others are out walking with them. And if they do, it's usually worry about being mugged, not raped and left for dead.

 

Yet most women would not say they live in fear. And they don't bc these things are just viewed as normal life for women.

 

Yup.

 

I got mocked by my coworkers for requesting an escort to my car. I worked 11-11 shift, but often didn't get off until 12:30 or 1 (not normal shift times when the parking lot was full).

 

But I don't like being sexually assaulted. So I continue to ask that someone walk me to my car.

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Guest submarines
If you asked them to give you a hug, and they replied they really didn't want to, would you force them anyway?

 

I've had my kids say they really didn't want to hug a relative or grandparent, and I respect their wishes and don't force them to. Asking for a hug is not forcing. Demanding they still give a hug when they don't want to is not ok, imo.

 

:iagree:

 

DS loves to hug me before I leave. Yesterday I was running to the bookstore, and called from the door to come and hug me. He was busy reading, so he yelled back, "That's okay, mom, love you!" "Love you too," I yelled back and left.

 

I can't imagine insisting he hugged me if he didn't want to, or was busy with something else. What's the point, really? Surely not affection.

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Are you, as an adult, forced to offer physical affection when you don't want to?

 

In the situation described above, I'd go very, very far to protect my child's right to not share their physical space regardless of the safety or vetting of the other person. My child has the right to say "no" to physical affection and it doesn't have to be a big, dramatic deal. It is safe for them to not want to go there. And I would never frame that as "attitude."

 

I am well aware of what constitutes "attitude." I have honestly never been in the position to "force" my children to give hugs or not to give hugs I just do think it's going a bit overboard to take such a strong stance as to think it is dangerous to say to a child "go give Grandma a hug" or "come give me a hug." If my child refused, I would be having a talk with them later to feel them out WHY they didn't want to give a hug. Most likely, it was because they were angry about not getting the present they wanted from grandma or being interrupted from something, etc. Those are selfishness issues that we would then work through. Is it also wrong to force a child to look an adult in the eye (another thing some children refuse to do)...I see these as manners issues. But again, I have never had to "force" my children to give anyone a hug and like I already mentioned, I am far on the paranoid side of the spectrum here.

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Sometimes they are busy. Sometimes they are off playing and I'm about to leave for the weekend. So I tell them, 'hey, I'm leaving, come give me a hug!'

They then do so. But according to what I'm seeing here, at could be construed as forcing them to hug me. :confused:

And really? 'My need for a hug?' What a terrible parent I must be.... When you were leaving for a weekend, or for a week long trip, would you not ask your kids to come give you a hug goodbye? Really? :glare: I guess to me, I'd rather leave them with a hug and a reminder of how much I love them, since we never know what could happen when we walk out the front door.

Granted, my kids have never been 'reluctant' to give me a hug. But they have been doing other things at the time, causing me to let them know I'm leaving, etc, and based on what this thread has said, me even asking for a hug (or putting my arm around my 6 year old when he is next to me in line at the store) could be construed as inappropriate. :001_huh:

Maybe I'm misreading, but that just seems bizarre.

 

 

I picture more along the lines of grandma or grandpa wanting a hug. The child doesn't respond. Parent says to give the grandparent a hug goodbye. The child says no, backs away or digs in their heels. They obviously do not want to hug the person. What do you do? I haven't had an issue like this, but I wouldn't make a kid hug someone they obviously don't want to. Now, my 6 year old didn't want a hug or kiss from me for over a year, but I still hugged and kissed him occasionally. But - I knew what was going on. My sister made it a game to give him a kiss. He loved this game. He'd say, "I haven't given you a kiss yet!" and then he'd run away. She'd chase and tickle and then she'd get a kiss. He wanted me to do that for every hug or kiss. It was beyond frustrating for me. A month ago, I told him I would not ever do that again. Since then it has been hugs and kisses like normal. If he just didn't want a hug or kiss period, I'd honor that.

 

Edited for clarity: Ds6 not wanting a hug or kiss looked like this: Ds6, can Mama have a kiss? Ds6 backing away with his arms waving, saying "no" while laughing and smiling. He didn't mind the kiss. He wanted the game.

Edited by Meriwether
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I picture more along the lines of grandma or grandpa wanting a hug. The child doesn't respond. Parent says to give the grandparent a hug goodbye. The child says no, backs away or digs in their heels. They obviously do not want to hug the person. What do you do?

i've had this happen. Just momentary shyness and feeling put on the spot for my kid, not attitude. Basically I said, "Grandma is telling you goodbye. Tell Grandma goodbye and shake her hand or give her a high five." Usually, the shyness evaporates after the high-five and Grandma gets her hug :)

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Generally when we leave my Inlaws we say give hugs and kisses DD has more then once said nO, normally because she is tired, sometimes just because she doesn't want to. Everyone there, me, DH, and both my Inlaws respect DDs choice to say no. It doesnt happen often, but it happens.

 

On the other hand I have told my Dad to back off sometimes he'll ask for a hug or try to hold one of the three when they are visibly upset and want Mommy or Daddy. It is completely normal for them to scream, cry (as a toddler) and try to get away when my Dad doesn't listen to their words. My dad is its generally clueless, he is completely safe, but he doesn't always get social clues from young children.

Edited by tabrizia
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The point is that pedophiles persuade parents to leave their kids alone with them. In the case I personally know of, he spent literally YEARS persuading them to do this. If the person in question has never tried to make that happen, then you probably have nothing to worry about.

 

You know, the article mentions "insurance" against predators. He said children with vigilant parents were discarded.

 

:iagree: The above are the most salient points to be gained from the article and other analyses of this sort of criminal..

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If you asked them to give you a hug, and they replied they really didn't want to, would you force them anyway?

 

I've had my kids say they really didn't want to hug a relative or grandparent, and I respect their wishes and don't force them to. Asking for a hug is not forcing. Demanding they still give a hug when they don't want to is not ok, imo.

I've never had that happen, so I don't know. My kids always come running to hug me.

I'm specifically asking about even the mention of a hug. I can't imagine a scenario where one of my kids refuses to hug me, so that is NOT what I'm talking about (which I feel I've said repeatedly- that I'm talking about the MERE mention of 'hey, I'm leaving!' Or something along the lines of the scenario of putting an arm over their shoulders when we are standing somewhere. I usually don't even ask for hugs when I go to the store - they insist on them. The ONLY time I've specifically said 'come give me a hug' is when I was leaving for the weekend or a week, in which cases i may not have even asked, i really dont remember. but it is the one time i can imagine making sure to before leaving the house. I guess we do say it at night, 'time for hugs' but that's everyone, and if a kid refuses to participate we don't say anything or make an issue of it, we just move on as usual.)

:iagree:

 

DS loves to hug me before I leave. Yesterday I was running to the bookstore, and called from the door to come and hug me. He was busy reading, so he yelled back, "That's okay, mom, love you!" "Love you too," I yelled back and left.

 

I can't imagine insisting he hugged me if he didn't want to, or was busy with something else. What's the point, really? Surely not affection.

You and I are saying the same thing.

My kids are far more insistent on hugs than I am. I don't hug. I don't like to hug. Outside of them and occasionally dh, I just don't hug people because I like my personal space.

Many of the replies to my post seem to assume I'm some needy mom asking for hugs all the time - I'm asking about theoretical situations and whether it is even considered appropriate to ASK for a hug or initiate physical contact with our children whatsoever. I don't know why people can't read them as such and instead keep badgering about the kid being reluctant. Did I ever say anything that insinuated such?

I'm looking at it a little like this - a kid could always decide they don't want a hug, which is well within their rights. Is it then still within our rights AS PARENTS to ask if there is something wrong? Or is that also a way of forcing the situation?

What I'm trying to get at is that if it is inappropriate to try to initiate physical contact with our children, then we would conclude it would be best to never try to touch them at all. :confused:

I am well aware of what constitutes "attitude." I have honestly never been in the position to "force" my children to give hugs or not to give hugs I just do think it's going a bit overboard to take such a strong stance as to think it is dangerous to say to a child "go give Grandma a hug" or "come give me a hug." If my child refused, I would be having a talk with them later to feel them out WHY they didn't want to give a hug. Most likely, it was because they were angry about not getting the present they wanted from grandma or being interrupted from something, etc. Those are selfishness issues that we would then work through. Is it also wrong to force a child to look an adult in the eye (another thing some children refuse to do)...I see these as manners issues. But again, I have never had to "force" my children to give anyone a hug and like I already mentioned, I am far on the paranoid side of the spectrum here.

 

:iagree:

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How is it sexist to state that men and women experience their own culture through different lenses? Nobody is suggesting an inherent inability to gain understanding.

 

Exactly so. My dh and I both worry about our daughters differently than we worry about our sons. Dh wouldn't even think to ask for an escort to his car late at night. That doesn't mean my dh is not fully capable of understanding why women think that way. He most certainly is. And he has his own radar for situations that bother him in different ways.

 

I read it to imply that a man isn't aware of these things - that he (general he, any man) doesn't have the radar, so to speak, that women have for predators and such.

What you say makes sense. If that is what that pp meant, I misunderstood.

 

I'm asking, what about US. As the parents. Are we also not allowed to hug our children without express permission?

 

Yes, you very much misunderstood.

 

As a parent, I might insist my kid give me a hug if they are just being turdy.:tongue_smilie: However, I know beyond a doubt if my kid is just being turdy with me bc I know I have never been icky with them. No matter how much I vet others, I can't say that about them. Almost every predator is vetted.

 

I live very rurally and I do think about all of those things. In fact, I've been more weirded out on my deserted road than I ever have in town/

 

:iagree: I feel much safer in an urban environment. Chances are better that if I yell for help, I'm going to be heard!

 

If your child was showing visible reluctance to a hug or saying no to a hug from you, would you force one? If so, why? Do you think that your need for a hug is more important or takes priority over your child's need to be separate from you or to have their own feelings respected?

 

Sure sometimes I might think my kid needs to know that using emotion to manipulate is wrong, so purposely being turdy by withholding affection is not very nice and trumps a rather skewed view of respect. (that's happened once or twice over the many years) Tho most likely they are just being lazy.:tongue_smilie: In that case, yes, I insist they get off their duff and come say goodbye or hello or whatever.

 

And as an adult, yes MANY people expect or demand hugs even though they know for a fact I am not comfortable with it. If you don't, especially as a woman, it is socially unacceptable. So most of the time I suck it up if I can't avoid it. Dh travels frequently and says its viewed as very cold and impolite in some areas of the world to refuse a peck on the cheek or a hug. Those things aren't viewed as intimate, so the refusal seems out of proportion in context. It'd be like refusing a handshake. Sure people do it. But it sure leaves a negative impression in our society.

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I'm specifically asking about even the mention of a hug. I can't imagine a scenario where one of my kids refuses to hug me, so that is NOT what I'm talking about (which I feel I've said repeatedly- that I'm talking about the MERE mention of 'hey, I'm leaving!' Or something along the lines of the scenario of putting an arm over their shoulders when we are standing somewhere.

 

:confused: No one is saying that it is wrong or coercive to mention hugs, suggest hugs, offer hugs, or invite hugs. I don't know where you're getting this.

 

People are talking about scenarios like this:

 

Grandma: Come give me a hug, Bobby.

Bobby: holds back, looking shy.

Grandma: Bobby, come over here! Give Grandma a big hug and a kiss.

Bobby: No, I don't want to.

Mom: Bobby, you go over there right now and hug and kiss Grandma. She hasn't seen you in a year! She wants a kiss!

Bobby: No!

Grandma: Aw, come on. Do you want to make Grandma cry?

Mom: Bobby, I can't believe you're acting this way. You love your Grandma! Hug and kiss her right now, or else no TV for a week!

 

People are NOT talking about this:

 

Grandma: Come give me a hug, Bobby.

Bobby: holds back, looking shy.

Grandma: Okay, maybe later.

Mom: I'll give you a hug! It's so good to have you here. Let me show you the picture Bobby drew for you when I told him you were coming.

Grandma: I'd love to see it!

 

I also don't think there's anything wrong with this:

 

Mom: Come give Grandma a hug - she's leaving.

Bobby: I don't want to.

Mom: Well, at least stop what you're doing and come over and say goodbye. That's good manners.

Bobby: Goodbye, Grandma.

Grandma: Goodbye, Bobby. How about a high five? See you next time!

 

I'm asking about theoretical situations and whether it is even considered appropriate to ASK for a hug or initiate physical contact with our children whatsoever. I don't know why people can't read them as such and instead keep badgering about the kid being reluctant. Did I ever say anything that insinuated such?

What I'm trying to get at is that if it is inappropriate to try to initiate physical contact with our children, then we would conclude it would be best to never try to touch them at all. :confused:

I think people keep "badgering about the kid being reluctant" because that is the only situation in which anyone is considering hugs to be problematic or inappropriate. Only if the kid is reluctant. If the kid isn't reluctant, why would there be any problem or issue with it?

 

Of course, as parents, most of us initiate affectionate contact with our kids all the time. I'm always hugging my kids, stroking their hair, encouraging my little guy to climb in my lap or my big girl to lean against me, holding their hands, kissing them, goofing physically with them, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. Why would there be? The question is whether you insist upon it when the kid doesn't want you to do it.

 

If I hold my arms out and say "come give Mama a hug" and my kid hugs me, yay. If I hold my arms out and say "come give Mama a hug" and my kid walks away, I haven't done anything inappropriate. If I follow up with "Okay, buddy, but I'm going to be gone all weekend so this is your last chance for hugs," I still haven't done anything inappropriate. If I walk up and hug my kid, and he stiffens up and turns away, and I let go, that's fine because I am releasing him when he shows me that he doesn't want a hug right now. If I say "You're going to hug and kiss me whether you like it or not" - inappropriate.

 

I don't think it's that complicated.

Edited by Rivka
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:confused: No one is saying that it is wrong or coercive to mention hugs, suggest hugs, offer hugs, or invite hugs. I don't know where you're getting this.

 

People are talking about scenarios like this:

 

Grandma: Come give me a hug, Bobby.

Bobby: holds back, looking shy.

Grandma: Bobby, come over here! Give Grandma a big hug and a kiss.

Bobby: No, I don't want to.

Mom: Bobby, you go over there right now and hug and kiss Grandma. She hasn't seen you in a year! She wants a kiss!

Bobby: No!

Grandma: Aw, come on. Do you want to make Grandma cry?

Mom: Bobby, I can't believe you're acting this way. You love your Grandma! Hug and kiss her right now, or else no TV for a week!

 

People are NOT talking about this:

 

Grandma: Come give me a hug, Bobby.

Bobby: holds back, looking shy.

Grandma: Okay, maybe later.

Mom: I'll give you a hug! It's so good to have you here. Let me show you the picture Bobby drew for you when I told him you were coming.

Grandma: I'd love to see it!

 

I also don't think there's anything wrong with this:

 

Mom: Come give Grandma a hug - she's leaving.

Bobby: I don't want to.

Mom: Well, at least stop what you're doing and come over and say goodbye. That's good manners.

Bobby: Goodbye, Grandma.

Grandma: Goodbye, Bobby. How about a high five? See you next time!

 

I think people keep "badgering about the kid being reluctant" because that is the only situation in which anyone is considering hugs to be problematic or inappropriate. Only if the kid is reluctant. If the kid isn't reluctant, why would there be any problem or issue with it?

 

Of course, as parents, most of us initiate affectionate contact with our kids all the time. I'm always hugging my kids, stroking their hair, encouraging my little guy to climb in my lap or my big girl to lean against me, holding their hands, kissing them, goofing physically with them, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. Why would there be? The question is whether you insist upon it when the kid doesn't want you to do it.

 

If I hold my arms out and say "come give Mama a hug" and my kid hugs me, yay. If I hold my arms out and say "come give Mama a hug" and my kid walks away, I haven't done anything inappropriate. If I follow up with "Okay, buddy, but I'm going to be gone all weekend so this is your last chance for hugs," I still haven't done anything inappropriate. If I walk up and hug my kid, and he stiffens up and turns away, and I let go, that's fine because I am releasing him when he shows me that he doesn't want a hug right now. If I say "You're going to hug and kiss me whether you like it or not" - inappropriate.

 

I don't think it's that complicated.

 

Thank you. You said everything I was thinking but couldn't find a way to express clearly! :iagree: completely.

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:confused: No one is saying that it is wrong or coercive to mention hugs, suggest hugs, offer hugs, or invite hugs. I don't know where you're getting this.

 

Of course, as parents, most of us initiate affectionate contact with our kids all the time. I'm always hugging my kids, stroking their hair, encouraging my little guy to climb in my lap or my big girl to lean against me, holding their hands, kissing them, goofing physically with them, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. Why would there be? The question is whether you insist upon it when the kid doesn't want you to do it.

 

If I hold my arms out and say "come give Mama a hug" and my kid hugs me, yay. If I hold my arms out and say "come give Mama a hug" and my kid walks away, I haven't done anything inappropriate. If I follow up with "Okay, buddy, but I'm going to be gone all weekend so this is your last chance for hugs," I still haven't done anything inappropriate. If I walk up and hug my kid, and he stiffens up and turns away, and I let go, that's fine because I am releasing him when he shows me that he doesn't want a hug right now. If I say "You're going to hug and kiss me whether you like it or not" - inappropriate.

 

I don't think it's that complicated.

 

Thank you for responding. I don't think it's complicated, either.

Everything you said here is exactly what I consider appropriate. I appreciate someone finally answering the question I asked. :)

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Thank you for responding. I don't think it's complicated, either.

Everything you said here is exactly what I consider appropriate. I appreciate someone finally answering the question I asked. :)

 

Glad to get things straightened out. :) Honestly, I think that if you haven't ever seen stuff like "You hug Grandma or you'll get a spanking!", that scenario is so far off your radar that you can't even picture what people are saying they're against.

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haven't read the entire thread but i did want to throw this into the stew after reading spy car's first comment about coaching.

 

i think it's fundamental to ask each child's permission each and every time before a touch is given in sports, classes, etc.

 

in our experience with community sports, coaches seem to automatically think it's okay to touch players' bodies in order to teach, guide, correct, etc.

 

the assumption seems to be that it's okay because the intention is in no way perverse and has a teaching motive.

 

BUT, does anyone ask the student/player if he/she would mind the touch? AND does the child feel strong enough to say NO, I don't want you to touch me if that's the way he/she really feels?

 

I don't call this paranoia. I call it respecting the child's body space.

 

Guiding and teaching can be done by verbal intruction or demonstrating the pose. If touching much be done, using another adult to model while the teacher/coach positions that adult's body is an alernative.

 

Even if the kid doesn't develop the best possible batting stance or shooting pose or whatever, that's okay in my book.

 

Our softball coach automatically assumed it was okay to touch my daughter's body to position her while batting. He didn't ask her permission. He didn't seem like a peodophile. Just a coach.

 

But my daughter felt really, really violated having an adult man tough her shoulders and arms and guide her body. After that first day she hated him and ended up dropping out of the season midway bec. she couldn't get over the alienation she felt.

 

My dh has been a baseball coach for 2 years now. He hasn't found a need to touch any of the players. How often is it REALLY necessary on a kids' team?

******************************

About the article.....the increasing degrees of touch that predators use....That is what happened to me. I didn't even realize what was happening. A very beloved, trusted family member rather than a coach....

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I read the article in full, and I haven't read all of the replies after this one yet. I did want to note that I understand your point. Men shouldn't automatically be suspect. However, any necessary and appropriate touching should be done in public. No adult not related to a child should ever touch that child in any way when alone with them, no matter how innocent. It isn't necessary and it isn't appropriate. I can't think of a single instance when touching when alone would be called for.

 

Most children who are victimized are the products of broken homes, or don't have caring and involved parents. That is why they choose them, because they have the opportunity to be alone with them. It is in privacy that abuse happens.

 

Grooming behaviors look like normal touching in the beginning because they ARE relatively normal. The predator is looking to see if the child will say anything, to them or to their parents. You can protect your child best by being involved in his/her activities, but also by talking to them about the adults in their lives and about their feelings. And by listening to a child who says "I didn't like so-and-so touching me". Even if the touch seems completely normal to you, you have to back your child up. Let them know that it is okay to say no, it is okay to be uncomfortable. Some people just don't like being touched, and that is okay. It is in saying to a child "that's no big deal, he was just being nice, she didn't mean anything by it" that we shut our children down and set them up to be taken advantage of.

 

That is incorrect and/or misleading. Are most children who are abused from "broken homes"? Well, that part might be true only because it might be true at this point that the majority of children do not live in a home with two biological parents. It might just be a numbers game.

 

Children are most likely to be abused by someone living in the home. A father or step-father is the most common culprit. Siblings are right up there as well. It can feel productive to protect against coaches and choir directors, but the greatest threat is in the home.

 

As for the "caring and involved" statement, well, that is just not true. It would be nice if loving your child and being involved in their lives would somehow keep predators away, but it isn't. Again, predatory pedophiles are very good at what they do. In fact, the standard treatment of them requires they not be treated solely on an individual basis. They are so manipulative, that they will eventually corrupt the treatment process. That is why treatment of sex offenders has a group therapy component, with more than one therapist present.

 

But, it is also good to keep in mind that pedophiles are only one kind of sex offender. A pedophile is a very specific type of disorder. There are opportunistic offenders, compensatory offenders etc, etc. Those types of offenders don't abuse a child because they find a child sexually arousing. They abuse a child because a child is available, vulnerable, and convenient.

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haven't read the entire thread but i did want to throw this into the stew after reading spy car's first comment about coaching.

 

i think it's fundamental to ask each child's permission each and every time before a touch is given in sports, classes, etc.

 

in our experience with community sports, coaches seem to automatically think it's okay to touch players' bodies in order to teach, guide, correct, etc.

 

the assumption seems to be that it's okay because the intention is in no way perverse and has a teaching motive.

 

BUT, does anyone ask the student/player if he/she would mind the touch? AND does the child feel strong enough to say NO, I don't want you to touch me if that's the way he/she really feels?

 

I don't call this paranoia. I call it respecting the child's body space.

 

Guiding and teaching can be done by verbal intruction or demonstrating the pose. If touching much be done, using another adult to model while the teacher/coach positions that adult's body is an alernative.

 

Even if the kid doesn't develop the best possible batting stance or shooting pose or whatever, that's okay in my book.

 

Our softball coach automatically assumed it was okay to touch my daughter's body to position her while batting. He didn't ask her permission. He didn't seem like a peodophile. Just a coach.

 

But my daughter felt really, really violated having an adult man tough her shoulders and arms and guide her body. After that first day she hated him and ended up dropping out of the season midway bec. she couldn't get over the alienation she felt.

 

My dh has been a baseball coach for 2 years now. He hasn't found a need to touch any of the players. How often is it REALLY necessary on a kids' team?

******************************

About the article.....the increasing degrees of touch that predators use....That is what happened to me. I didn't even realize what was happening. A very beloved, trusted family member rather than a coach....

 

 

I agree. We take far too much touching for granted in these kinds of situations. Just like the girls' basketball team at a school district one county north of here. Coach hugging on the girls, slapping them on the shoulders, an occasional "PAT ON THE BUTT" which still didn't send up alarm signals because this is all "normal" in sports, etc. Turned out the guy had cameras set up in the locker room and filming the girls. Sicko!

 

I'd love to here the European perspective on this. Is there so much acceptance of coaches and what not touching children without asking? Is that the norm?

 

It's a useful discussion...what is the acceptable boundary line? When is it okay and our children should learn to handle it well and when has the line of inappropriate been crossed? I know that I was NEVER comfortable with my female PE teacher swatting us on the rear, you know that slap of "good job" during the time-out or whatever. I hated her for it. As an 8th grader, was I really supposed to put up with that? It felt soooo degrading. I mentioned it to my mom once and she told me to suck it up and not be disrespectful. However, I believe it was disrespectful of the coach to be swatting my rear without my express permission.

 

I'd like to hear more perspectives on this topic. I'm sure that some activities have more of a need for "touching" as part of instructing. I know I NEVER needed to touch my regular piano students as a teacher, though sometimes my special needs kids did have to have me do some positioning with them for their music therapy...but, not only did I make parents stay in the room but I always said, "Okay, Billy...I need to do this for you in order to help you do this. I'm going to touch you know...very gently. Thank you." I tried to make it somewhat clinical and empowering for them - ie. "this person needs to touch me but it will be an okay kind of touch and only to help me do this and then it will be over" kind of thing. I would imagine something like ballet might require more physical interaction with the instructor.

 

Faith

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Dude. You are male. You have no idea, no idea whatsoever, what kind of vigilance is required of females in our society. None. And I agree with you that it is unhealthy. Unfortunately, it is also necessary. You have a daughter. Figure this out. It's part of your responsibility as a parent.

 

To clarify about the book--it does not teach being hyperaware or paranoid. Rather, it is relaxing in that it teaches you to believe your instincts when they are warning you. There is a tremendous amount of angst that floats around in deciding whether or not to believe that you might be threatened, and in deciding whether to openly take some action regarding this. It is actually calming to hear that you should go ahead, take this stuff seriously, and believe your instincts. I am glad that this empowering book exists to assist in that transformation. Too many women have allowed embarrassment or not wanting to hurt someone's feelings to prevent them from taking simple steps to protect themselves, sometimes with tragic results. Enough already.

 

I didn't say that Bill was incapable of figuring this out because he is male. In fact I encouraged him to do just that.

 

What I do believe, BASED ON HIS OWN STATEMENTS in this thread, is that he is basing his reactions to the books in question entirely on his own experience, which is distinctly different from that of females in our culture, and that as a father he should consider that difference. He sounded dismissive and contemptuous in his posts as well, which is just exactly the wrong way to teach girls how to be strong, self-sufficient women.

 

There are a lot of men as well as women who get this, and I hope that every parent does, male or female.

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Dh says every time he has traveled out of the US, people are far more okay with touching. Hugs, kisses, holding hands, hands on shoulders...

 

I completely disagree with asking. I think it sets up a false situation. I can hear it now. "Well mom, I did tell him it was okay to touch me...." or "I didn't really want him to but he touches everyone and I felt weird saying no..."

 

Not to mention I do have a problem with actively discouraging perfectly normal signs of affection bc some sicko might twist it into a perversion.

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I didn't say that Bill was incapable of figuring this out because he is male. In fact I encouraged him to do just that.

 

No. What you said was:

 

Dude. You are male. You have no idea, no idea whatsoever, what kind of vigilance is required of females in our society. None.

 

Which is quite incorrect. I do have a pretty good idea as a matter of fact.

 

What I do believe, BASED ON HIS OWN STATEMENTS in this thread, is that he is basing his reactions to the books in question entirely on his own experience, which is distinctly different from that of females in our culture, and that as a father he should consider that difference. He sounded dismissive and contemptuous in his posts as well, which is just exactly the wrong way to teach girls how to be strong, self-sufficient women.

 

You are simply inventing things. I fully support raising smart, strong, self-sufficient and intellectually honest young women (and boys). And kind ones too. That includes raising children who are kind to their loving grandparents. Only in topsey-turvey land is that controversial.

 

Bill

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I did my graduate work in criminal justice and do have a master's degree in it though my Phd work is ABD. Anyway, the statistics on child abuse are not that everyone is equally at risk. They aren;t. Children of uninvolved or for whatever reason, good or bad, ones who have less parental involvement, are more at risk. Furthermore, there is a much higher risk for girls, in particular, if mom has a step dad or a boyfriend in the picture. Fathers do commit incest but even there, it is more likely if the child is not the biological child of the father.

 

The rarest type of child molestation is the total stranger type- the kind where a creepy guy jumps out of the bushes and grabs a kid. THat happens but not very often at all. The stepfather/boyfriend scenario is the most common for females, but since they tend to only abuse the kids in the home, they don't rack up the victim counts that the out of home abusers do. Once we start talking about relatives and associates, that is where the male molestation usually happens. It also happens to girls but since many of them are molested by in family people, a smaller percentage is molested by these out of family people. It still is a large group since many of the out of family predators end up victimizing a lot of people.

 

The ones who groom the kids select their prey the way that it was described in the article. Their goal is to get kids and not get arrested or killed by an angry parent. Therefore, it is more likely that they will target the compliant child of a not very aware parent. Your stubborn child who probably gives you fits with discipline is probably one of the least likely to get victimized this way.

 

The other fact I learned in my studies was that there is no effective rehabilitation of these creeps. They have the highest recidivism rate and that is saying something since it is even higher than drug addicts. It is such an essential part of their being.

 

Now as redsquirrel said, not all of these abusers are predatory pedophiles. Some would have no more than one victim even if there are others that are available. Some are really inept criminals and because of said ineptness, can only violate some child in the most extreme circumstances- these are the guys that everyone considers creeps and wouldn't normally let them near a child. They may turn to child pornography. Many people with careers tend to do that- they think it less likely to put them in harms way.Or, if they have money, they fly to someplace like Thailand and buy the services of children. There is a whole disturbing world out there.

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And, although I am not going to engage with the poster anymore, the fact that I don't support suggesting, encouraging, or forcing children to offer or accept physical affection does not equal support of a cold, unaffectionate family culture. A stand protecting a child's right to autonomy in regard to affection is not synymous with "cold", "unaffectionate", or "standoffish".

 

I'm sure it might feel otherwise to a loving grandparent who longs for a demonstration of affection from a beloved grandchild but is spurned. That has to be pretty hurtful. I would hate to raise children who were so cruel. I guess we have different family values.

 

Bill

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I'm sure it might feel otherwise to a loving grandparent who longs for a demonstration of affection from a beloved grandchild but is spurned. That has to be pretty hurtful. I would hate to raise children who were so cruel. I guess we have different family values.

 

Bill

 

Idk. I guess. I would think it would depend on how close they really are or if they just want the image of being close.

 

My in laws rarely spend much time with any of my kids. Sometimes my kids feel affectionate and offer/accept hugs and sometimes they don't. Especially when they are under age 10 or so. And knowing my kids don't have a particularly close relationship with their grandparents, I'm not very sympathic to their pushing for fake signs of affection. Even if they buy something expensive for them or give them cookies.:glare:

 

Now if I truly felt my child was being manipulative or something, then I would pull them aside and let them know emotional blackmail was not acceptable. (which is fair bc I don't allow the grandparents to do that either)

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I'm sure it might feel otherwise to a loving grandparent who longs for a demonstration of affection from a beloved grandchild but is spurned. That has to be pretty hurtful. I would hate to raise children who were so cruel.

 

Hmm... To me, being cruel would be something along the lines of spitting in grandma's face and shouting curse words at her. Waving goodbye instead of a hug? Not really cruel imo.

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I'm sure it might feel otherwise to a loving grandparent who longs for a demonstration of affection from a beloved grandchild but is spurned. That has to be pretty hurtful. I would hate to raise children who were so cruel. I guess we have different family values.

 

Bill

 

Bill, I would also hate to have my grandkid be forced to hug me. If someone doesn't want to hug or kiss me, goodness, I hate the thought of someone being dragged, kicking and screaming, into my arms. I would much rather wave the kid goodbye. I do think in an ideal world, a grandchild feels comfortable enough to exchange hugs with a grandparent, who have a mutually loving and healthy relationship. But sometimes it just doesn't work out quite that way, so I think it's better to encourage or promote courtesy rather than force physical affection.

 

I had a kid who had no interest in giving hugs or kisses but was happy to receive them. I thought trying to keep things positive and pleasant was more loving than forcing particular actions.

 

On the other hand, people don't really hug or kiss kids or really anyone, in my husband's culture, so I am off the hook as long as my kids shake hands. ;)

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I'm sure it might feel otherwise to a loving grandparent who longs for a demonstration of affection from a beloved grandchild but is spurned. That has to be pretty hurtful. I would hate to raise children who were so cruel. I guess we have different family values.

 

Bill

 

Mentally healthy adults don't pin their self worth to the whims of a 4 year old. Someone's ego would have to be extremely fragile if not getting a requested hug from a toddler would cause them emotional hurt.

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See, the below procedure would absolutely creep my son out. He needs to be physically repositioned (and I do care, because he won't even come close to learning the basics without the help, so he can play with the other kids). If he was asked every five minutes, "Can I touch you?" he'd run screaming from the class before it was a third over.

 

I also shudder when I see school districts implementing rules along the lines of "You must request permission before any physical contact with another student." Really? Are we losing that much of our humanity? Physical contact with other humans is pretty much wired into us unless we have suffered a trauma, and is the norm. Getting away from that kind of abnormal indoctrination is one of the reasons I am glad we homeschool.

 

 

 

haven't read the entire thread but i did want to throw this into the stew after reading spy car's first comment about coaching.

 

i think it's fundamental to ask each child's permission each and every time before a touch is given in sports, classes, etc.

 

in our experience with community sports, coaches seem to automatically think it's okay to touch players' bodies in order to teach, guide, correct, etc.

 

the assumption seems to be that it's okay because the intention is in no way perverse and has a teaching motive.

 

BUT, does anyone ask the student/player if he/she would mind the touch? AND does the child feel strong enough to say NO, I don't want you to touch me if that's the way he/she really feels?

 

I don't call this paranoia. I call it respecting the child's body space.

 

Guiding and teaching can be done by verbal intruction or demonstrating the pose. If touching much be done, using another adult to model while the teacher/coach positions that adult's body is an alernative.

 

Even if the kid doesn't develop the best possible batting stance or shooting pose or whatever, that's okay in my book.

 

Our softball coach automatically assumed it was okay to touch my daughter's body to position her while batting. He didn't ask her permission. He didn't seem like a peodophile. Just a coach.

 

But my daughter felt really, really violated having an adult man tough her shoulders and arms and guide her body. After that first day she hated him and ended up dropping out of the season midway bec. she couldn't get over the alienation she felt.

 

My dh has been a baseball coach for 2 years now. He hasn't found a need to touch any of the players. How often is it REALLY necessary on a kids' team?

******************************

About the article.....the increasing degrees of touch that predators use....That is what happened to me. I didn't even realize what was happening. A very beloved, trusted family member rather than a coach....

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Mentally healthy adults don't pin their self worth to the whims of a 4 year old. Someone's ego would have to be extremely fragile if not getting a requested hug from a toddler would cause them emotional hurt.

 

:iagree:

 

An adult who can't allow a child to make a decision about whether they want to hug or kiss someone has issues. There's nothing cruel about raising a child to know that you respect their feelings.

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I'm sure it might feel otherwise to a loving grandparent who longs for a demonstration of affection from a beloved grandchild but is spurned. That has to be pretty hurtful. I would hate to raise children who were so cruel. I guess we have different family values.

 

Bill

If someone is that incapable of understanding that a child's need to have their boundaries respected and gets their nose out of joint about it isn't someone I'm worrying about.

 

It isn't cruel to not want to produce physical affection on demand.

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No. What you said was:

 

 

 

Which is quite incorrect. I do have a pretty good idea as a matter of fact.

 

 

 

You are simply inventing things. I fully support raising smart, strong, self-sufficient and intellectually honest young women (and boys). And kind ones too. That includes raising children who are kind to their loving grandparents. Only in topsey-turvey land is that controversial.

 

Bill

 

And yet you are incapable of having a discussion without accusing others of making things up.

 

:001_rolleyes:

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Mentally healthy adults don't pin their self worth to the whims of a 4 year old. Someone's ego would have to be extremely fragile if not getting a requested hug from a toddler would cause them emotional hurt.

 

Really? Because I thinking such behavior would hurt the feelings of a great many grandparents. I don't think this is a nice way for children to behave.

 

Bill

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I don't think this is a nice way for children to behave.

 

It's not a nice way to behave when mature adults force a child to hug someone when they do not want to.

 

Children are children. Grandparents are adults. It's common sense to figure out who should be the adult in a situation like this and not take a child's request for ownership of his/her body so personally.

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It's not a nice way to behave when mature adults force a child to hug someone when they do not want to.

 

Children are children. Grandparents are adults. It's common sense to figure out who should be the adult in a situation like this and not take a child's request for ownership of his/her body so personally.

 

Little kids often don't want to take baths, brush their teeth, write thank you cards, or share with others. Yet we teach them hygiene and manners rather than indulging bad behavior (I hope). That is our job as parents. Same with having the children show respect and kindness towards their grandparents.

 

Bill

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I'm sure it might feel otherwise to a loving grandparent who longs for a demonstration of affection from a beloved grandchild but is spurned. That has to be pretty hurtful. I would hate to raise children who were so cruel. I guess we have different family values.

 

Bill

 

I've actually been there and done that. My son did not feel comfortable hugging people, even his grandparents. I respected that. My parents were hurt, but I explained it to them. I also explained to my son that it hurt their feelings, and that maybe he could try to give grandma a hug every other time, or when he could. My son has Aspergers. It was not diagnosed at the time. But I'm grateful I stood by him, and didn't force him to have physical contact that made him uncomfortable...it would have made him tense the whole visit and ruined his relationship with them. INstead, they have a great relationship, and as he got older he allowed hugs, but he still doesn't like them, he is just old enough to tolerate it anyway, and has dealt with a lot of the Asperger's issues, and outgrown the sensory issues.

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Little kids often don't want to take baths, brush their teeth, write thank you cards, or share with others. Yet we teach them hygiene and manners rather than indulging bad behavior (I hope). That is our job as parents. Same with having the children show respect and kindness towards their grandparents.

 

Bill

And the only way a child can demonstrate respect and kindness is through a show of physical affection? I guess you do have different family values.

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I didn't say that Bill was incapable of figuring this out because he is male. In fact I encouraged him to do just that.

 

What I do believe, BASED ON HIS OWN STATEMENTS in this thread, is that he is basing his reactions to the books in question entirely on his own experience, which is distinctly different from that of females in our culture, and that as a father he should consider that difference. He sounded dismissive and contemptuous in his posts as well, which is just exactly the wrong way to teach girls how to be strong, self-sufficient women.

 

There are a lot of men as well as women who get this, and I hope that every parent does, male or female.

 

Yes. In one of the books the author mentions the difference...as a man, the worst you are afraid of on a first date is that the woman will laugh at you. As a woman, the worst you are afraid of on a date is that the man will kill or rape you. That is the flat out truth, and if you don't live that, you won't get it.

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Yes. In one of the books the author mentions the difference...as a man, the worst you are afraid of on a first date is that the woman will laugh at you. As a woman, the worst you are afraid of on a date is that the man will kill or rape you. That is the flat out truth, and if you don't live that, you won't get it.

 

Men are actually empathetic enough to understand this, believe it or not.

 

Bill

 

ETA: The author—by the way—is a man.

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Little kids often don't want to take baths, brush their teeth, write thank you cards, or share with others. Yet we teach them hygiene and manners rather than indulging bad behavior (I hope). That is our job as parents. Same with having the children show respect and kindness towards their grandparents.

 

Bill

 

I totally agree. Especially with that last line. I do not agree that violating a child's personal space by forcing them to hug when they do not want to equates to that at all. There are many respectful, kind ways for children to say goodbye to their grandparents that do not involve forced hugs or kisses.

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