How would you answer this statement about a Pearl book?

[Hannah]

I know, not another Pearl thread, but I really need advice.

 

My friend is reading the Pearl's "To Train Up a Child".

 

I've told her that I think their teachings are dangerous and how it has lead to child abuse and even death.

 

Her answer is that their principles are biblical (she says she is reading the book with the Bible at her side and can't find fault with their theology) and that their advice in the second half of the book is just their interpretation of these principles. According to her things like having to use a tool for spanking, lashing a child 10 times are 'just their opinion' and that one can take the good from the book without taking it to extremes.

 

She did tell me yesterday that, "I should have given my children more hidings". She quotes the scriptures (used in the book) that say that physical punishment cleanses the soul and that the rod is a comfort to the child. Apparently she 'missed this' before. I really have no answer to this.

 

I've told her that we should just agree to disagree (and I strongly disagree!) on this issue, but I know she is not going to let it drop and I need to be able to have some replies ready for her as I don't know that I'll be able to pass the bean-dip on this either.

[Rosy]

I am no fan of the Pearls, but there are many, many people who read their stuff and don't become child abusers. I think the Pearl books are most dangerous in the hands of people who have extreme personalities or a black-and-white view of the world. If she seems to be a healthy, solid person in general and has a good relationship with her husband, you probably don't need to worry about her.

 

The best thing you can do is continue to raise your kids in a healthy, positive way and hope to be an example to her, and report any signs of abuse that you see.

[Hannah]

Her children are 13,11 and 7 yo girls.

 

These quotes are referenced on a site that talks about the book (I don't have a copy of it), so I assume they are the references she was referring to:

 

■Ps 23:4, 2 Sam 7:14, Psalm 89:32 The rod is a comfort for the child (p 46). Prov 19:18 for giving hope to a rebellious child and to give rest to you and the entire household Prov 29:17 (pg 47)

■Stripes are to the soul what the healing blood is to the wound (Heb 12:6) so a child properly spanked is healed in the soul and restored to wholeness of Spirit (Prov 23:13,14)

 

If I find each individually on Biblegateway.com (from the NIV), they say:

 

Ps 23:4: Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort

 

2 Sam 7:14: 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands.

 

Psalm 89:32: 32 I will punish their sin with the rod, their iniquity with flogging;

 

Prov 19:18: Discipline your children, for in that there is hope; do not be a willing party to their death.

 

Proverbs 29:17: Discipline your children, and they will give you peace; they will bring you the delights you desire.

 

Heb 12:14 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.â€

 

Prov 23:13,14: 13) Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.

14) Punish them with the rod and save them from death

[stansclan89]

She did tell me yesterday that, "I should have given my children more hidings". She quotes the scriptures (used in the book) that say that physical punishment cleanses the soul and that the rod is a comfort to the child. Apparently she 'missed this' before. I really have no answer to this.

 

I have always been taught that the rod in the scriptures symbolizes the word of God. The Word of God would be a comfort to the child.

 

Not sure right now where to back this up though...

[Hannah]

I have always been taught that the rod in the scriptures symbolizes the word of God. The Word of God would be a comfort to the child.

 

Not sure right now where to back this up though...

 

If anyone knows, I"d like to be able to give that to her.

[Liz CA]

Ahem...I really can think of other ways to "cleanse" one's soul. I did spank rarely, always used my hand and always explained before why it was happening.

Just to clarify that I am not anti-spanking across the board, however, I would mention to her that the goal is always to spank less and less (by a certain age one really needs to find other methods of disciplining) because spanking is more humiliating than soul cleansing...again, just IMHO.

[Natalieclare]

I am no fan of the Pearls, but there are many, many people who read their stuff and don't become child abusers. I think the Pearl books are most dangerous in the hands of people who have extreme personalities or a black-and-white view of the world. If she seems to be a healthy, solid person in general and has a good relationship with her husband, you probably don't need to worry about her.

 

The best thing you can do is continue to raise your kids in a healthy, positive way and hope to be an example to her, and report any signs of abuse that you see.

 

:iagree:

[cindergretta]

If you don't mind a little reading, here is (what I consider) a good source for understanding the original meaning of the "rod verses."

 

http://aolff.org/spare-the-rod/the-rod-or-shebet-an-in-depth-examination

 

While I am a big believer in "bean dipping," some people just can't let it go and if they really want to discuss it ("it" being any contentious issue) then I will happily dive right in.

 

I am not a believer in spanking and I don't offer it up as a topic of conversation EVER. But if one asks me about my choice not to spank, I will tell them about it, so long as it is understood that I am not debating it nor am I open to deciding to spank. I have made it almost 18 years into my parenting without it and I don't see a need to start now.

 

Basically, I am simply trying to say that I don't intend to shove my opinion down anyone's throat. I won't bring it up or argue but if someone asks and wants to understand, I will explain. I do NOT believe it is Godly or Christian to spank. I believe parents can be faithful to the Lord and never raise a hand to their child. That is my belief and no one else has to "buy it." I won't push it and I don't expect to be "corrected" for it, either. It isn't up for debate with me. :D

[Lily_Grace]

This is one of my favorite pieces, a letter to a pastor posted on Mothering.com's forums.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Anyone could take a few scriptures and get an idea about what the scriptures say. It takes more courage to take all the scriptures regarding a topic and work out what God really thinks. WHen you do that on discipline, you get a lot more about persistence, mildness, gentleness, kindness, consistency, constancy, reasoning, etc. You wouldn't discount the scriptures that some take to mean spanking. If you think it means to spank, fine. But then you have to work it in with the many more scriptures about good teaching and guidance. And many people would find that they could take those "spanking scriptures" differently in light of history, presentation, how to implement the discipline scriptures, etc.

 

As for your friend....

 

"Friend, I really enjoy our friendship. I strongly disagree with the Pearls and do not wish to discuss their beliefs any further. I would greatly appreciate your respect in this matter so we can remain friends."

 

I probably would be a little more gentle and definitely be VERY sweet in how you said it. Be short, sweet, but clear. I would follow it up with a discussion about how her spelling program is going (or whatever).

 

JMO. I will NOT entertain those sorts of discipline discussions. I have been downright traumatized by the culture here. I do not own a wooden spoon. And my teens/hubby just, within the last year, have gotten belts. I don't own one. I seriously doubt my youngest remembers his first parents beating them with a belt (as he remembers, consciously, nothing else about them), but each time an elder comes to the house, he messes with person's belt and acts like he is spanking himself with it. He was 2 years 9months when removed from his home this last time. Seriously. I realize I'm more sensitive (probably because of my extra-sensory situation), but I just simply cannot entertain discussions about beating. At least your friend doesn't have a 5month old she's doing it to, I guess....

Edited February 27, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[Heather in Neverland]

According to her things like having to use a tool for spanking, lashing a child 10 times are 'just their opinion' and that one can take the good from the book without taking it to extremes.

.

 

This is a response I wrote to a similar post about the Pearls who thought there was enough "good" in their writings to be worth reading:

 

How about if I give someone a glass full of raw sewage to drink but add a few drops of purified water? Would they drink it? I mean, come on, I realize the majority of it is filth but there is SOME good water in there, right? How about if you drink the glass down but just spit out all the filth and keep only the "good parts"?

 

The Pearls are not just wrong... They are DANGEROUS.

 

 

.

[KungFuPanda]

I don't spank, but just using what I've gleaned from homeschooling boards, aren't her kids a little old for her to be embracing the Pearls now? How long does this go on? Until the kids get married?

[clarkacademy]

I wouldn't answer her. After the remark about my child should have had some more hidings I would have walked away from that friendship because she has her opinion of me pretty clear. If you need to make a remark I would just calmy say anyone who strikes an infant needs some real help and that I would pray for her.

 

The Pearls advocate spankings or whatever to infants and there is no way I could ever take anything they said to heart after that. I have no issue with spankings at a point. I have some very strong willed children and there have been times that a smack to the bum is just what worked, but not a baby.

 

The whole spanking until a child is without complaint thing don't work either my youngest son would be dead by now. These are the kind of people that can turn the Bible into a dangerous book in my opinion.

[Haiku]

I'd stay out of it. I'd respond to any attempts to discuss it with, "There is no way we can come to agreement on this issue. I don't want to discuss it." Rinse and repeated as needed.

 

Discussions like that are not productive. Neither of you will change your mind.

 

Tara

[NanceXToo]

That wouldn't be my friend anymore. "I find those people to be child abusers who promote extreme abuse which has led to the death of quite a few children. I'm sorry that you've fallen into their trap, I'm sorry that you're finding ways to justify it, but I will not listen to it, I will not be around it, I will not watch it happen to your children, I will not risk my children having to hear about it, so I do not feel our friendship can continue at this point. I hope that you come to realize how vile and dangerous they are before your children get hurt too badly, or your relationship with them does. When you reach a point where you no longer embrace the teachings of a couple of child abusers over a loving relationship with your children, perhaps at that point we can resume our relationship as well."

 

Harsh? Who cares. So's beating on your kids til you destroy their spirits. Besides she has no problem pushing her viewpoints on you.

[Parrothead]

That wouldn't be my friend anymore. "I find those people to be child abusers who promote extreme abuse which has led to the death of quite a few children. I'm sorry that you've fallen into their trap, I'm sorry that you're finding ways to justify it, but I will not listen to it, I will not be around it, I will not watch it happen to your children, I will not risk my children having to hear about it, so I do not feel our friendship can continue at this point. I hope that you come to realize how vile and dangerous they are before your children get hurt too badly, or your relationship with them does. When you reach a point where you no longer embrace the teachings of a couple of child abusers over a loving relationship with your children, perhaps at that point we can resume our relationship as well."

 

Harsh? Who cares. So's beating on your kids til you destroy their spirits. Besides she has no problem pushing her viewpoints on you.

:iagree:Yup, this is how it would end for me too. I can't condone it, I refuse to watch it.

[stripe]

I'd be tempted to find some similar quotes out of context interpreted to say that wife-beating is allowed. I agree wi Tara that someone seduced by this logic is unlikely to be persuaded out of it, but Kung Fu Panda has a good point -- her kids are awfully old for baby "training." It seems incomprehensible to me that this has become to mouthpiece for Christian parenting. There are certainly better specimens out there.

[bethben]

I've never read the books, but from what I've heard, they sound very legalistic - i.e. "if you don't do this, your kids will turn out horribly". Some people who read these books have grace - meaning they can take the "good" from the books and just apply that without going to an extreme. The ones that concern me are the ones who are law based themselves. The ones who will not have discernment about what is too far and seeing the Pearls as the final authority. These are the people you hear about that do abuse their children based on the writings from their books or stay with an abusive, adulterous husband based on other writings. I think that's the danger in those books is that they are legalistic.

 

I have a group of friends who are reading their book on submission. You can tell who in the group is law based and who is grace based. The ones who are law based are feeling guilty and horrible about how they are treating their husband and their marriage. The ones who are grace based are taking some gems out of the book and happily improving their marriage. So, I think the right person can read these books and be fine, but an insecure woman who sees them as the final authority can be crushed by them.

 

Beth

[CalicoKat]

I know, not another Pearl thread, but I really need advice.

 

My friend is reading the Pearl's "To Train Up a Child".

 

I've told her that I think their teachings are dangerous and how it has lead to child abuse and even death.

 

Her answer is that their principles are biblical (she says she is reading the book with the Bible at her side and can't find fault with their theology) and that their advice in the second half of the book is just their interpretation of these principles. According to her things like having to use a tool for spanking, lashing a child 10 times are 'just their opinion' and that one can take the good from the book without taking it to extremes.

 

She did tell me yesterday that, "I should have given my children more hidings". She quotes the scriptures (used in the book) that say that physical punishment cleanses the soul and that the rod is a comfort to the child. Apparently she 'missed this' before. I really have no answer to this.

 

I've told her that we should just agree to disagree (and I strongly disagree!) on this issue, but I know she is not going to let it drop and I need to be able to have some replies ready for her as I don't know that I'll be able to pass the bean-dip on this either.

I'd be snarky, "Orange look good on you too?"

[Mrs Mungo]

http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/ --> discusses context and word use of the verses in question

 

http://www.elizabethesther.com/2011/08/cnn-investigates-mike-debi-pearl-the-lydia-schatz-spanking-death-and-the-biblical-child-training-book-to-train-up-a-child.html -->the Pearls under investigation

[ktgrok]

I'd focus on the scripture that says not to provoke your child to wrath. Their blanket training techniques are certainly provoking the child!

[elfgivas]

"oh, that's horrible. very few things in life are worth ending a friendship over, but for me this is one of them. you are choosing to read someone who promotes hurting children, making excuses for them, and then suggesting someone emulate them. that book has led to children dying at the hands of their parents, the people who should have loved and protected them. i really can't believe you are reading it. your poor children. i have to go now."

 

and then i'd take my children and go.

 

ann

[nono]

"oh, that's horrible. very few things in life are worth ending a friendship over, but for me this is one of them. you are choosing to read someone who promotes hurting children, making excuses for them, and then suggesting someone emulate them. that book has led to children dying at the hands of their parents, the people who should have loved and protected them. i really can't believe you are reading it. your poor children. i have to go now."

 

and then i'd take my children and go.

 

ann

 

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

[SKL]

With all the stuff out there that people read, I can't agree that reading a book (assuming a sane mind) is going to lead to a crime. People read and watch fiction and nonfiction about things more horrible than a normal brain could even imagine, and then they go about their business without hurting others.

 

I haven't read the Pearls, but I've read plenty of books I either completely or partly disagree with. (Including books encouraging permissiveness and overly child-centered worlds.) When I read something I hadn't thought of before, my mind goes through a stretching exercise and I come to my own conclusion (or reconfirmation) which may be the exact opposite of what I have read. I am pretty sure that's what most others do as well.

 

Would you prevent your child from reading Mark Twain because you don't want him to become a racist? I wouldn't. I read Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn (as a kid) and managed to take the good and leave the bad. I give sane adults that much credit.

 

I think you did enough by telling the woman that some parents put the Pearls above common sense and go way too far. Your friend acknowledged that the book is not to be followed blindly. I would let it go. If you witness actual legal abuse of her kids, or if she tries to tell you that you should be beating your kids, that's a different issue.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I would not let this person around my children.

 

FTR, if anyone, any person at all, thinks that the Jesus written about in the Bible could EVER condone the sorts of things that they talk about in their books then they are not the sort of people I could trust around my children. I think that they are so blinded by the writings of child abusers who gleefully condone child rape that they will not hear any dissent.

 

Sick.

 

 

Sick and wrong. Our friendship would quickly deteriorate to nothing. I can't respect people who could read this filth and find any redeeming qualities in it.

[Mrs Mungo]

With all the stuff out there that people read, I can't agree that reading a book (assuming a sane mind) is going to lead to a crime. People read and watch fiction and nonfiction about things more horrible than a normal brain could even imagine, and then they go about their business without hurting others.

 

I haven't read the Pearls, but I've read plenty of books I either completely or partly disagree with. (Including books encouraging permissiveness and overly child-centered worlds.) When I read something I hadn't thought of before, my mind goes through a stretching exercise and I come to my own conclusion (or reconfirmation) which may be the exact opposite of what I have read. I am pretty sure that's what most others do as well.

 

Would you prevent your child from reading Mark Twain because you don't want him to become a racist? I wouldn't. I read Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn (as a kid) and managed to take the good and leave the bad. I give sane adults that much credit.

 

I think you did enough by telling the woman that some parents put the Pearls above common sense and go way too far. Your friend acknowledged that the book is not to be followed blindly. I would let it go. If you witness actual legal abuse of her kids, or if she tries to tell you that you should be beating your kids, that's a different issue.

 

Reading fiction is totally different than reading something that insists it is not only non-fiction, but that it is the only Biblical way parent. Those sorts of statements get into people's heads in insidious ways.

[Scuff]

In hindsight, I wish I had been more confident in my parenting and been less willing to listen to "experts". I had some pretty good ideas and don't think i did a half bad job of it. Not perfect. But our children don't need perfect to turn out well. All the other debates aside, the problem i have with the Pearl's is that they present it as doom and gloom if you don't follow their methods exactly. One comes away thinking their children are destined for hell if they don't parent the Pearl way. Or that following thier methods guarantee perfect results. I don't think parenting is meant to be that hard. Yes, it is *hard*. but I am a person, who was raised up from a child. My parents did some things right and somethings very wrong. But I'm smart enough to know what was effective and what left me wounded. I can figure out from that how to train up and treat my child. And sure it won't be perfect. But no one is. We do our best and leave the rest up to God. What I've said could apply to anyone who presents themselves as an all-knowing expert.

[NanceXToo]

With all the stuff out there that people read, I can't agree that reading a book (assuming a sane mind) is going to lead to a crime. People read and watch fiction and nonfiction about things more horrible than a normal brain could even imagine, and then they go about their business without hurting others.

 

I haven't read the Pearls, but I've read plenty of books I either completely or partly disagree with. (Including books encouraging permissiveness and overly child-centered worlds.) When I read something I hadn't thought of before, my mind goes through a stretching exercise and I come to my own conclusion (or reconfirmation) which may be the exact opposite of what I have read. I am pretty sure that's what most others do as well.

 

Would you prevent your child from reading Mark Twain because you don't want him to become a racist? I wouldn't. I read Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn (as a kid) and managed to take the good and leave the bad. I give sane adults that much credit.

 

I think you did enough by telling the woman that some parents put the Pearls above common sense and go way too far. Your friend acknowledged that the book is not to be followed blindly. I would let it go. If you witness actual legal abuse of her kids, or if she tries to tell you that you should be beating your kids, that's a different issue.

 

It's not the same. The Pearls are very dangerous. They can be very seductive. They claim to know how to raise perfectly obedient children and go on about how you can have kids who will obey the first time every time and how this is good for your kids and your relationship because it will lead to harmony in the relationship and so on and so forth and then you can enjoy your kids, and they'll always listen to you. They talk about how this can even save your kids because once in a dangerous situation their kids listened when it counted no questions asked and its important for kids to do that. They lure parents into thinking, can it really be that way? Will my kids really be that obedient if I just follow these teachings, and will it really make my relationship better in the long run? Then, to make it worse, they get the religious/Christian parents by throwing in all this bible stuff. Plus, they say, the bible TELLS you to do this. We can prove it. And they go on and on about how the bible and Jesus and so on says this is what you should do, and you would not believe how CONVINCING they can be. And they go on and on about their "success stories," and they've got people buying into it left and right, wanting to believe them, wanting to be doing the "right" thing (ironic!), and the "biblical" thing. And they manage to get so many of those conservative religious parents scared that they're dooming their kids to hell if they don't do what they're told. Even some people thinking, well, maybe I don't have to do it that extreme. But if at first it doesn't work they're told, well, but you didn't REALLY follow it, you can't just half way follow it, you have to go ALL IN and believe us, it will work, and then you won't HAVE to do it so much anymore and blah blah blah... it's such a dangerous horrible slippery slope but people are DOING IT!!

 

I've seen people right here on this board admit they subscribe to the Pearls' followings.

 

It's nowhere NEAR the same thing as some off-hand remark about how reading Mark Twain could make someone a racist.

[Tammyla]

I would encourage her to read the Bible.

[SKL]

It's not the same. The Pearls are very dangerous. They can be very seductive. They claim to know how to raise perfectly obedient children and go on about how you can have kids who will obey the first time every time and how this is good for your kids and your relationship because it will lead to harmony in the relationship and so on and so forth and then you can enjoy your kids, and they'll always listen to you. They talk about how this can even save your kids because once in a dangerous situation their kids listened when it counted no questions asked and its important for kids to do that. They lure parents into thinking, can it really be that way? Will my kids really be that obedient if I just follow these teachings, and will it really make my relationship better in the long run? Then, to make it worse, they get the religious/Christian parents by throwing in all this bible stuff. Plus, they say, the bible TELLS you to do this. We can prove it. And they go on and on about how the bible and Jesus and so on says this is what you should do, and you would not believe how CONVINCING they can be. And they go on and on about their "success stories," and they've got people buying into it left and right, wanting to believe them, wanting to be doing the "right" thing (ironic!), and the "biblical" thing. And they manage to get so many of those conservative religious parents scared that they're dooming their kids to hell if they don't do what they're told. Even some people thinking, well, maybe I don't have to do it that extreme. But if at first it doesn't work they're told, well, but you didn't REALLY follow it, you can't just half way follow it, you have to go ALL IN and believe us, it will work, and then you won't HAVE to do it so much anymore and blah blah blah... it's such a dangerous horrible slippery slope but people are DOING IT!!

 

I could say all of this about Blue Algea (which a "friend" energetically tried to sell me on), but I declined to buy that also.

 

We're not talking about computers. We're talking about humans with the capacity to reason and to know when they've gone too far.

 

If every case of child abuse were connected with the Pearls, you might have a point. But the fact is, some people are abusers. They will abuse their kids whether they ever hear of the Pearls or not.

 

OP, you know your friend as a seasoned parent. If she has not abused her kids before, she's not going to start now. If she is already an abuser, the book is not to blame.

[Camy-7 boybarians 1 lady]

We are huge fans of the Pearls, so that is my disclaimer.

 

In no way do they advocate harsh, cruel discipline. As a matter of a fact, what is most emphasized is building loving relationships and tying strings w/ your children. Any person who has harmed their children and referenced the Pearl's teachings as their guide, has not read their books or is a sick person.

 

We have been thankful for their resources. Our 8 children bring so many compliments from others. 5 of our 8 are in Catholic school, and the teachers/principals can't say enough about their kind, respectful, well-mannered behavior. They are not perfect in any way, but overall they are great human beings. Our kids have learned their sense of humor mainly from some of the Pearl's funny ways of dealing with undesirable behavior.

 

We have 7 boys, and we are so thankful and proud of them. They are a joy to have around and very responsible. They are not scarred for life for getting spanked as children. They have laughed and responded w/ surprise when they have seen stories about people who think the Pearl's are cruel, insensitive teachers of child training.

 

Sorry, I felt this defense of the Pearl's was necessary.

 

I believe the writings of any claimed child trainer/expert are always relative to how parents' use them in their own life/lives. Some people come from severely legalistic or dysfunctional backgrounds tend to swing the pendulum the other way and use child training inappropriately. Others may use the love and logic method wrongly and raise children with lack of consideration and self control towards others. In my opinion, many children today are just plain soft and will have a hard time becoming an adult. Much of this is the result of poor training.

 

I understand your concerns about the Pearls, though, if I thought someone advocated cruelty toward another human being, I would question it as well. However, I encourage you to read their books carefully and see what they do teach. I can tell you that I do more laughing while reading their stuff than anything.

 

Blessings,

 

Camy (who has 7 wonderful boys that make me so proud....and they are just plain fun to be around...even the teens. My daughter is a strong, confident young woman who is quite good at training our little children :o).

[Pretty in Pink]

.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Pretty in Pink

[NanceXToo]

I could say all of this about Blue Algea (which a "friend" energetically tried to sell me on), but I declined to buy that also.

 

We're not talking about computers. We're talking about humans with the capacity to reason and to know when they've gone too far.

 

If every case of child abuse were connected with the Pearls, you might have a point. But the fact is, some people are abusers. They will abuse their kids whether they ever hear of the Pearls or not.

 

OP, you know your friend as a seasoned parent. If she has not abused her kids before, she's not going to start now. If she is already an abuser, the book is not to blame.

 

Okay, except humans tend to want "expert opinions" and religious humans tend to want to "do the biblical thing" and the Pearls tend to claim to be able to offer knowledge on both (expert parenting advice and above all biblical parenting advice). The OP already said that her friend says their principles are biblical and she can't find fault with their theology, that physical punishment cleanses the soul, that the rod is a comfort to the child, and that she "missed this before" (but presumably now thanks to the Pearls it's all clear to her).

 

We have someone in this thread on this page talking about how in no way do they advocate harsh, cruel discipline, even though they will tell you what size switch you should use on a one year old baby. A one.year.old.BABY. They are crazy and abusive and yet they are so alluring and so promising and manage to use the bible so convincingly that otherwise normal people are just convinced that they should listen to these teachings. It turns my stomach and makes me want to cry for all those poor babies and children out there. You can build relationships and "tie strings" without physically hurting your children. I don't understand why so many people buy into that crap, but they do. And they're not all people you might already have considered "insane" or "abusive."

 

I'm gonna check out of this thread now because it's just going to make me crazy and depressed today. I said my piece and I can't do the circular argument thing anymore. All I can do is reiterate that the OP's friend would no longer be my friend, no way, no how.

[Chris in VA]

Prov 19:18: Discipline your children, for in that there is hope; do not be a willing party to their death.

 

Proverbs 29:17: Discipline your children, and they will give you peace; they will bring you the delights you desire.

 

Heb 12:14 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

 

These verses do not mention physical discipline. I do, indeed, believe in the discipline of the LORD.

 

2 Sam 7:14: 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands.

 

Psalm 89:32: 32 I will punish their sin with the rod, their iniquity with flogging;

 

These verses have been used to describe Christ's flogging, not because of his sin, but because he became sin for us.

 

I'd end the friendship after pointing out the above.

[SKL]

Well, I certainly would not "end the friendship" without first reading the book myself, from cover to cover.

 

I would not make such a decision based on hearsay.

[astrid]

That wouldn't be my friend anymore. "I find those people to be child abusers who promote extreme abuse which has led to the death of quite a few children. I'm sorry that you've fallen into their trap, I'm sorry that you're finding ways to justify it, but I will not listen to it, I will not be around it, I will not watch it happen to your children, I will not risk my children having to hear about it, so I do not feel our friendship can continue at this point. I hope that you come to realize how vile and dangerous they are before your children get hurt too badly, or your relationship with them does. When you reach a point where you no longer embrace the teachings of a couple of child abusers over a loving relationship with your children, perhaps at that point we can resume our relationship as well."

 

Harsh? Who cares. So's beating on your kids til you destroy their spirits. Besides she has no problem pushing her viewpoints on you.

 

Yes, my thoughts exactly. There is NO WAY I could continue any sort of relationship with her. I would not feel the need to justify my parenting to her, and I would not feel that it was my duty to "save" her or her children. If she's hooked in with the Pearls' mindset, she likely won't listen to you anyway. No. No way in hell I'd maintain a friendship with a child abuser. And I"m sorry, there is no way to characterize adherance to the Pearls' teachings as anything other than abuse, in my book.

 

astrid

[Haiku]

In no way do they advocate harsh, cruel discipline.

 

I guess it depends on your definition of harsh and cruel. Hitting babies with plumbing line qualifies as both, imo.

 

Tara

[Susan in TN]

http://parentingfreedom.com/discipline/ --> discusses context and word use of the verses in question

 

 

 

Wow - this is excellent. Thank you.

[Tenaj]

We are huge fans of the Pearls, so that is my disclaimer.

 

In no way do they advocate harsh, cruel discipline. As a matter of a fact, what is most emphasized is building loving relationships and tying strings w/ your children. Any person who has harmed their children and referenced the Pearl's teachings as their guide, has not read their books or is a sick person.

 

We have 7 boys, and we are so thankful and proud of them. They are a joy to have around and very responsible. They are not scarred for life for getting spanked as children. They have laughed and responded w/ surprise when they have seen stories about people who think the Pearl's are cruel, insensitive teachers of child training.

 

Sorry, I felt this defense of the Pearl's was necessary.

 

I believe the writings of any claimed child trainer/expert are always relative to how parents' use them in their own life/lives. Some people come from severely legalistic or dysfunctional backgrounds tend to swing the pendulum the other way and use child training inappropriately. Others may use the love and logic method wrongly and raise children with lack of consideration and self control towards others. In my opinion, many children today are just plain soft and will have a hard time becoming an adult. Much of this is the result of poor training.

 

I understand your concerns about the Pearls, though, if I thought someone advocated cruelty toward another human being, I would question it as well. However, I encourage you to read their books carefully and see what they do teach. I can tell you that I do more laughing while reading their stuff than anything.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

Knowing from experience here that you will probably get blasted for saying what you said, I wanted to get you a thumbs up and let you know that you're not alone in your opinions.

[astrid]

I "train" dogs.

I educate humans.

 

As a successful dog trainer, I do not now nor have I ever used corporal techniques in my training programs. Nor would I ever employ them as parenting techniques.

 

And for what its worth, my 14 year old daughter (only child) is a joy to be around as well. Polite, respectful, helpful, cheerful, wonderful sense of humor. All accomplished without the use of the "rod."

 

Whether it's in "training" dogs or "educating" humans, I do not find beatings to be humorous in the least.

 

astrid

[NanceXToo]

I guess it depends on your definition of harsh and cruel. Hitting babies with plumbing line qualifies as both, imo.

 

Tara

 

I know. I know I said I was done but I'm already just beyond upset. I knew it would happen the second I opened a thread with those monsters' names in it. Here's a direct excerpt from their book:

 

Chapter 6, "Applying the Rod," in a section titled "Instruments of Love" (cough), says:

 

"For the under one year old, a small, ten- to twelve-inch long, willowy branch (striped of any knots that might break the skin), about one-eighth of an inch in diameter is sufficient. Sometimes alternatives have to be sought. A one-foot ruler, or its equivalent in a paddle, is a sufficient alternative. For the larger child, a belt or larger tree branch is effective."

 

For the UNDER ONE YEAR OLD? WTF? Are you KIDDING ME? These are BABIES. They are telling you what implements to BEAT BABIES with. And calling them instruments of love. And telling you why its biblical to do this. And that's not harsh or cruel or abusive or CRAZY?

[SKL]

I have not read the Pearl books.

 

But when I was growing up, people definitely spanked babies under a year old. It was very normal. It was to teach them not to touch stuff that could hurt them. Nobody even thought twice about it. Somewhere along the line someone convinced people that they need to get all emotional about what used to be normal discipline.

 

I spanked my 10mo's hands on occasion to teach her not to do unsafe things. It was rarely needed because she learned quite readily. She had a lot of freedom and a low frustration level as a kid thanks to her early development of self-control. Disciplined kids are generally happy kids.

[KungFuPanda]

We are huge fans of the Pearls, so that is my disclaimer.

 

5 of our 8 are in Catholic school, and the teachers/principals can't say enough about their kind, respectful, well-mannered behavior. They are not perfect in any way, but overall they are great human beings. Our kids have learned their sense of humor mainly from some of the Pearl's funny ways of dealing with undesirable behavior.

 

 

Blessings,

 

Camy (who has 7 wonderful boys that make me so proud....and they are just plain fun to be around...even the teens. My daughter is a strong, confident young woman who is quite good at training our little children :o).

 

Whoa, I thought this was strictly a BAC text??? Catholics are using this?

[astrid]

I have not read the Pearl books.

 

But when I was growing up, people definitely spanked babies under a year old. It was very normal. It was to teach them not to touch stuff that could hurt them. Nobody even thought twice about it. Somewhere along the line someone convinced people that they need to get all emotional about what used to be normal discipline.

 

I spanked my 10mo's hands on occasion to teach her not to do unsafe things. It was rarely needed because she learned quite readily. She had a lot of freedom and a low frustration level as a kid thanks to her early development of self-control. Disciplined kids are generally happy kids.

 

There are many forms of discipline. Just because a child is not beaten, slapped, switched or spanked does not mean they are not "disciplined" and/or "happy."

 

Again, the objections many have to the Pearls' techniques are not because they advocate slapping a child's hand away from a hot stove. Beating babies under the age of one across the bare legs as they cry in a crib, directions on how to use a small tree branch to effectively improve morale and break a child's will are a whole different kettle of fish.

 

astrid

[SKL]

Again, the objections many have to the Pearls' techniques are not because they advocate slapping a child's hand away from a hot stove. Beating babies under the age of one across the bare legs as they cry in a crib, directions on how to use a small tree branch to effectively improve morale and break a child's will are a whole different kettle of fish.

 

astrid

 

Like I said, I'd have to read the books myself to determine whether a friend's curiosity to read what the Pearls say, or her comment that SOME of what they say is interesting, is enough for me to break a friendship.

[3peasinWa]

The Pearls describe 1 yr old babies having a "spirit of rebellion" & "their flesh needs self-discipline" - so if the baby wants her toy or just simply wants to play on the floor instead of sitting on your lap - then you must "teach them how to deny the flesh" -(No Greater Joy II Pages 2-5).

 

On page 8 of "TTUAC" Pearl talks about switching his 5 month old baby on the legs for going up the stairs

 

Page 36: "If God's love is expressed in the whippings he give us [all believers] then can we not love our children enough to chasten them unto holiness?"

 

I am so sickened by the theology of the Pearls & the way they twist scripture to substantiate their need to whip children...you cannot whip someone into holiness...and NO, God does NOT spank us.

[Scuff]

I "train" dogs.

I educate humans.

 

 

astrid

 

Society uses the word "train" in a lot of situations involving humans. Driver's training, job training, training for a marathon... It's kinda nitpicky to say we don't "train" but educate. Semantics.

[Carol in Cal.]

God doesn't make us holy and perfect. Rather, He puts Christ's righteousness on us so that He looks at us as if we are holy and perfect. There is no adult on earth, Christian or not, who does not sin.

Daily. If this were not so, St. Paul himself would not lament his own frequent sin. Paul. The most well-trained Jew and Christian, probably, of his day.

 

That should be the starting point.

 

Yes, children are sinful. So are adults.

 

It is right to teach children God's Word and His precepts--that is part of parental vocation. But that does not mean that consistency will bring about perfection. Being consistent is important but it is not completely efficacious. The Pearls' theology about this is just plain wrong at its root, and that is the root of all of their other failings. It starts from a lie, and the lie is that humans can become perfect on earth. It takes that lie so far to an extreme that it can result in horrendous child abuse. It doesn't necessarily go that far, but the number of times when it has should be sufficient to give us pause when we contemplate it.

 

Since the theology is wrong at the base, the rest of their interpretation of God's Word MUST be questioned. We know that the Bible is the Word of God, and that makes it difficult to argue with the Pearls when they quote the Bible so much, but it is crucial to do that, realizing that they have taken passages out of context, have a twisted interpretation of Scripture at their base, and have not taken into account the 'whole counsel of God.'

[NanceXToo]

I have not read the Pearl books.

 

But when I was growing up, people definitely spanked babies under a year old. It was very normal. It was to teach them not to touch stuff that could hurt them. Nobody even thought twice about it. Somewhere along the line someone convinced people that they need to get all emotional about what used to be normal discipline.

 

I spanked my 10mo's hands on occasion to teach her not to do unsafe things. It was rarely needed because she learned quite readily. She had a lot of freedom and a low frustration level as a kid thanks to her early development of self-control. Disciplined kids are generally happy kids.

 

And you didn't even blink at the fact that they recommended using a tree branch on a baby.

 

Wow.

 

Well. That's how they get you, I guess. They find these people who go "but it's normal, I was raised to think it's ok to hit, and discipline makes kids happy after all" (never mind that there are other ways to discipline), and then they throw in all the bible stuff, and the poor babies don't stand a chance.

 

These people don't just smack hands on occasion in unsafe situations by the way. They do it to babies for crawling off blankets or up stairs while saying "no" to teach instant obedience. They do it to toddlers for having age appropriate tantrums. They recommend pulling hair if nursing babies bite, they recommend leaving a child without breath to cry, completely breaking their will, it goes on and on.

[astrid]

I understand your point. And actually, I"m a professiona dog "trainer" and my day job is as a professional development "trainer" in the field of adult education. I provide training workshops to adult education teachers/administrators. So ironically, both of my business cards say, "Trainer" under my name. :001_smile:

 

However, I feel that the Pearls use the word "train" to point out the unequal relationship between "trainer" and "trainee," among other things.

Are you a "hometrainer?" No, we are home schoolers. We engage in "educating" our children in math, reading, etc. We don't "train" them in math. Similarly, we TEACH them self-discipline, we don't "train" them to have it.

 

Yes, semantics. But when discussing the Pearls, I do feel it's a different kettle of fish than "cross-training" or "drivers training." (which, incidentally, in my area of the country is referred to as "drivers' ed")

 

astrid