Dd10 is busted

[clarkacademy]

I don't think your punishment was too harsh. I think it wasn't harsh enough to be honest. I also don't think you need to stand over a 10 year old to see that her work is done. I don't care if you had a chance to check it. She lied everyday for a month. A months punishment is what she should get.

 

I believe these are the years we are teaching them to take care of their responsibilities. I am not bashing but I would never tolerate the kids dad telling me I should have checked. No, she is no longer a baby and should be held accountable. She knew she was lieing.

[sewingmama]

One thing I picked up

 

Everyday I ask "Did you do your Latin"? and she would look straight at me and say "yes".

 

I do know 100 % that she did the DVD portions because I saw her do that.

 

Is it possible that your DD answered yes because she did do the DVD part and considered that enough? So maybe she is blaming you because she feels she did, at least in part, do the Latin?

 

FWIW - I'm completely with you on this one. Your DD is plenty old enough to work from a checklist and do what she was asked whether you graded her or not.

 

I would figure out for sure if she was meaning to lie or it was just a miscommunication (she thought she had done Latin because she watched the DVD's).

 

Either way DD should have to make up the work - she is old enough to be taught that regardless of who is to blame or the circumstances under which it happened- the mistake still has to be fixed even if it means less free time for her.

[DaffodilDreams]

A little humor to lighten the thread . . .

 

I ran the lying for a month bit by dd8 earlier tonight, and she thinks 10 yr olds are able to handle "big consequences". So she suggests one day of being grounded for every day that your dd lied to you. ; )

 

I personally think that would be a bit much, but I look forward to reminding dd of her suggestion should we find ourselves in a similar situation! : )

[Jean in Newcastle]

One thing I picked up

 

 

 

 

 

Is it possible that your DD answered yes because she did do the DVD part and considered that enough? So maybe she is blaming you because she feels she did, at least in part, do the Latin?

 

FWIW - I'm completely with you on this one. Your DD is plenty old enough to work from a checklist and do what she was asked whether you graded her or not.

 

I would figure out for sure if she was meaning to lie or it was just a miscommunication (she thought she had done Latin because she watched the DVD's).

 

Either way DD should have to make up the work - she is old enough to be taught that regardless of who is to blame or the circumstances under which it happened- the mistake still has to be fixed even if it means less free time for her.

 

No, she told me that she knew she was lying and not doing the entire assignment. She has had issues with taking responsibility for her own actions before. She often deflects responsibility by blaming others. The only difference this time is that I did have some responsibility of my own - not for her lying but for the scenario as it played out.

 

I agree about the mistake needing to be fixed. That was the context of my wanting to talk about the Latin situation (that I mentioned in the OP) - we needed to fix this situation.

[Jean in Newcastle]

A little humor to lighten the thread . . .

 

I ran the lying for a month bit by dd8 earlier tonight, and she thinks 10 yr olds are able to handle "big consequences". So she suggests one day of being grounded for every day that your dd lied to you. ; )

 

I personally think that would be a bit much, but I look forward to reminding dd of her suggestion should we find ourselves in a similar situation! : )

 

:D Your dd is tough!

[Colleen in NS]

I'm thinking that not getting to go out to play is part of the punishment and having to work through at least part of the summer to make up the work in time is another natural consequence. But I'm not sure if that is enough for a 10 year old or not.

 

The only immediate consequence that was mentioned in the OP was that she wasn't able to go out again to play after having been out sledding for an hour and a half already. The other consequence I mentioned - that of having to work some in the summer is not an imposed consequence as such. It's a possible natural consequence...You really think that staying in for the rest of the afternoon was too harsh and strict for having lied daily to me for a month?

 

By itself? No. In the bigger picture you presented (or more accurately, I and apparently a few others interpreted) in your OP and what facts I see about you on the forums? Definitely.

 

In your OP, you said "part of the punishment." You also talked about working through the summer as a natural consequence. You also expressed doubt that these two items would be enough (punishment? I thought you were looking for ideas for the other "part" of the punishment) for a 10 yo. In light of the bigger picture you presented in your OP, I thought that the *combination* of:

 

1. you stopping the snow-play

2. you making your dd go through the summer (presumably would normally be free? that seems like unjust punishment for something for which I believed you were muchly responsible for)

3. you wondering if these two things were enough - sounded to me like you were looking for more punishment ideas

 

was too harsh.

 

Did you ever find out what your dd thought was your fault? I'd probably talk with her about that, about the lying and the need to ask for help if she needs it so she doesn't feel the need to lie, and fix the time-for-grading problem, and then carry on. Maybe get her to help you with your financial-records project or another must-do project, as a way to make up for lying. I think it's easier to prevent a situation that might invite lying, than to fix lying. I also think kids *know* that lying is wrong, and I don't believe kids really *want* to lie and have adversarial relationships with their parents.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Jean in Newcastle]

By itself? No. In the bigger picture you presented (or more accurately, I and apparently a few others interpreted) in your OP and what facts I see about you on the forums? Definitely.

 

In your OP, you said "part of the punishment." You also talked about working through the summer as a natural consequence. You also expressed doubt that these two items would be enough (punishment? I thought you were looking for ideas for the other "part" of the punishment) for a 10 yo. In light of the bigger picture you presented in your OP, I thought that the *combination* of:

 

1. you stopping the snow-play

2. you making your dd go through the summer (presumably would normally be free? that seems like unjust punishment for something for which I believed you were muchly responsible for)

3. you wondering if these two things were enough - sounded to me like you were looking for more punishment ideas

 

was too harsh.

 

Did you ever find out what your dd thought was your fault? I'd probably talk with her about that, about the lying and the need to ask for help if she needs it so she doesn't feel the need to lie, and fix the time-for-grading problem, and then carry on. Maybe get her to help you with your financial-records project or another must-do project, as a way to make up for lying. I think it's easier to prevent a situation that might invite lying, than to fix lying. I also think kids *know* that lying is wrong, and I don't believe kids really *want* to lie and have adversarial relationships with their parents.

 

Yes, I asked if that was enough. From some of the posts here, there are moms who don't think it was enough. Others thought that it was. A couple thought that I was the only one who should be punished.

 

I talked to dd tonight (about a half hour ago) at bedtime. I was gentle and matter of fact. She does not blame me now that she has had time to cool off. She did agree that I need to keep up with my grading when I brought that up. If she doesn't get done with Latin by June, she will be doing Latin later in the summer. Since Latin takes her no more than 30 min. a day, she might have 30 min. of schoolwork in an otherwise free day.

 

She must have stayed up after our talk because about 5 min. later she came out with a to-do list for tomorrow. On it she had listed working on getting caught up in Latin. (And no, she won't get all caught up tomorrow but at least she's putting this on her schedule as something she wants to work on before summer comes.) This is the responsible daughter that I'm used to. While dd has had some trouble lying in the past, lying about her responsibilities has not been the kind of lying that she has done. In one way, discovering this month-long lie blindsided me.

[Liz CA]

Could she be thinking that listening to the CD was "doing Latin?"

I understand that the work is not done but I am just wondering if she didn't think she lied or if she is fully aware of what "doing Latin" means?

Here, the consequences would depend on this.

If you are convinced she lied, the consequences you are considering seem appropriate. Perhaps also an essay on character and lying...;)

Edited January 19, 2012 by Liz CA

[Jean in Newcastle]

Could she be thinking that listening to the CD was "doing Latin?"

I understand that the work is not done but I am just wondering if she didn't think she lied or if she is fully aware of what "doing Latin" means?

Here, the consequences would depend on this.

If you are convinced she lied, the consequences you are considering seem appropriate. Perhaps also an essay on character and lying...;)

 

No, she told me specifically tonight that she knew that watching the DVD was only half of it. She lied. She admits it now. She's taken care of it spiritually.

[Colleen in NS]

I also don't think you need to stand over a 10 year old to see that her work is done.

 

I have to. I have to assign specifics to my 11yo and almost-14yo, and check to be sure they complete those specifics. My 11yo will sometimes skip things on her list, and I have to ask her about those and follow through. Sometimes my almost-14yo wanders around in a moody funk (this journey of parenting through adolescence has been eye-opening in many ways for me), telling me he doesn't want to do his (Latin/grammar/writing/history/science/etc.). I have to smile and insist that he does it despite his "I don't wanna's." While I don't need to stand over them anymore to make their hands pick up the toys and put them in the toy box, I still need to stand over their school assignment lists and make sure each item is completed. "Standing over" is done in varying degrees as they mature. I am finding, though, that I must "stand over" certain things less and less, which is a pleasant discovery.

 

In other words, if I, as their long-term-visioned/more-life-experienced mother, feel very strongly that they need to do something, and I have very specific reasons *why* I think they need to do this thing, then I need to "stand over" - I need to find a way to motivate them to do it. I try to go about this as positively as possible. And because this requires a lot of mental effort and relational navigating, I pick few battles. Which is why, in Jean's case, I would not have focused on the lying - do some kind of something about it, yes - focus on it, no.

 

I talked to dd tonight (about a half hour ago) at bedtime. I was gentle and matter of fact. ...

 

She must have stayed up after our talk because about 5 min. later she came out with a to-do list for tomorrow. On it she had listed working on getting caught up in Latin.

 

This method and result is precisely what I was trying to describe. It sounds like she understands that her lying didn't solve her Latin-study problems nor help her relationship with you, and that she is motivated to fix it now. If it was me, I would consider this solved. I'd cheerfully carry on hoping for good things from her, with no need to apply further punishment in this situation. Enjoy the catching-up-in-Latin process with her - inject some new fun into it somehow. Way to go!

 

...This is the responsible daughter that I'm used to. While dd has had some trouble lying in the past, lying about her responsibilities has not been the kind of lying that she has done. In one way, discovering this month-long lie blindsided me.

 

:grouphug: Don't let it get you down - she will probably disappoint you again somehow - but each day is a new day where she gets to start over.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Colleen in NS
grammar

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Hindsight is great but does not deal with the situation at hand. Your dd did wrong, plain and simple. She should be punished. At 10, I think loss of fun for a while and making up the work is acceptable. Knowing you need to keep up with her work will keep this from happening again.

 

I have been in this situation. It is hard to keep up with correcting papers when things in life take your immediate time. One thing I do is have a check out time, I don't correct the work but I take the schedule and go through the list, peeking at the actual work for each assignment to see if it is all there. If so, the child is checked out. I can see what is completed or half done at a glance. Takes 5 mins. This has been a tremendous help with fighting of anger from missed work or fibbing about completed work.

[Anne in CA]

[

 

Where I work, the "feedback" for those who don't do their work is getting fired.

 

Tara

 

This is my case at work also. Jean's dd knew that her work would be checked at some point. She had always had her work checked before. She knew she was lying when she crossed it off, and she lied to Jean with words. Jean did not cause the lie.

 

I myself had this exact scenario with my step dd when she was nine. She was lying to her teacher and to me, playing both ends and doing no school work. That was the start of my home school journey. My dd was FURIOUS at having to do school work when she was home schooled for the first three years. She had learned to get away with lying and it was a nightmare to undo the perception she had that if you put off doing school work until it is too late to be graded and then you are still passed when school administrators want to move you ahead, you "win". This is not a good game to allow an intelligent child to play.

[Jean in Newcastle]

One thing I do is have a check out time, I don't correct the work but I take the schedule and go through the list, peeking at the actual work for each assignment to see if it is all there. If so, the child is checked out. I can see what is completed or half done at a glance. Takes 5 mins. This has been a tremendous help with fighting of anger from missed work or fibbing about completed work.

 

It turns out that this is what dh was suggesting (though his initial choice of words could have been better imo). I will be doing this.

[Cindy in FL.]

Sorry that this happened. I've btdt. I have found the only solution to be checking their work at least weekly, but ideally daily. It isn't easy with all the other parts of life clamoring for your attention. I'd tell dd that you're sorry that it got to this point and help her however you can.

 

Cindy

[AK_Mom4]

Marathon Latin isn't a good idea, as you mentioned; however, you can make it extra without dragging it out all summer. Plus she will understand that there are ramifications to not doing it as scheduled.

 

Here's what I would do if in a similar situation:

 

If my school typically ended at 2pm, instead of letting her stop then I would have her do an extra assignment of Latin. If you need the break at 2pm, make 4pm be the extra assignment of Latin time. Use whatever time suits you. It should cut into her free time but not necessarily eliminate it. Just do a lesson and not several during her free time. Cutting into enough on a consistent basis will get the point across without making you a slave to do it during your free time (or time you use for dinner prep or whatever).

 

Also, during her playtime on Saturday, you could stop and do a lesson of Latin. Just doing it will be punishment. It need not be all day Saturday. Doing that isn't fair to you. Just a lesson to cut-in to her free day.

 

By doing an extra lesson in the afternoon and on Saturday, you'll make up the Latin without doing it all summer, making it a marathon, punishing yourself by making you school more than needed when you could be doing other needed things, and teaching her that there is a consequence when one procrastinates.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

I like this idea! I get caught out by my 10yo as well if I don't check all of her work regularly!

[ma23peas]

I did need some advice as to how to handle the consequence part of that..

 

That was my point, part of the consequences is that you have to accept the responsibility to her for causing her to sin. You seem to want to keep these two actions separate...no, they are together. You can not give her consequences without sitting down with her and acknowledging to her that you are partly to blame, that is your consequence. Now as to her consequence...the bottom line is she has a month's worth of lessons to make up...I would say if she were doing 1 chapter a week, then she would need to be caught up in 8 weeks with all that she missed and be on the original schedule...do 3 extra lessons each week, or whatever it takes in a reasonable amount of time.

My kids do much better when I acknowledge humbly to them, that my actions caused them to sin...I show them where their actions caused me to sin! I am very patient...but if I have to tell a child 3x to do something...I lose my temper...I ask them, "The first time I asked you, did I have a harsh tone?" "No" "The second time I asked you did I have a harsh tone" "No"...by the third time I'm getting harsh...and their disobedience helped get me to that sin of losing my temper...same for you, your lack of follow-up allowed her to be in a position where she could shirk her work and facing the reality was too hard so she lied....not that it is right...but we all must accept responsibility when our actions could have helped someone to sin.

[Jean in Newcastle]

That was my point, part of the consequences is that you have to accept the responsibility to her for causing her to sin. You seem to want to keep these two actions separate...no, they are together. You can not give her consequences without sitting down with her and acknowledging to her that you are partly to blame, that is your consequence. Now as to her consequence...the bottom line is she has a month's worth of lessons to make up...I would say if she were doing 1 chapter a week, then she would need to be caught up in 8 weeks with all that she missed and be on the original schedule...do 3 extra lessons each week, or whatever it takes in a reasonable amount of time.

My kids do much better when I acknowledge humbly to them, that my actions caused them to sin...I show them where their actions caused me to sin! I am very patient...but if I have to tell a child 3x to do something...I lose my temper...I ask them, "The first time I asked you, did I have a harsh tone?" "No" "The second time I asked you did I have a harsh tone" "No"...by the third time I'm getting harsh...and their disobedience helped get me to that sin of losing my temper...same for you, your lack of follow-up allowed her to be in a position where she could shirk her work and facing the reality was too hard so she lied....not that it is right...but we all must accept responsibility when our actions could have helped someone to sin.

 

I think we have a theological difference here. I do not believe that anyone can cause someone else to sin. It was her volitional choice to sin. Her initial choice to sin was done when there had been no history of me not checking her work or any reason for her to think that I wouldn't check it. Yes, she took advantage of the fact that she got away with it to continue to sin. But she could have been prompted by her conscience and the Holy Spirit to confess her sin at any time during that month. She didn't. Now I realize that I let her get away with her initial sin and by doing so made it easier for her to continue in that. I have confessed that to God and to her. We're good.;) She's confessed her part to God and to me. We're good there too.;) But if her confession was qualified by "I lied but mom made me lie", then I would have a problem with her confession because in my opinion, a true confession does not try to deflect the blame that we properly own.

 

ETA: The sin/confession angle is sort of peripheral to the consequence angle though. We talked about it but that is something that she does privately with God. My confession of sin was also private though I mentioned it to her during our talk. As to my sin against my daughter - we've discussed that too and I've taken that into account when coming up with consequences.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Jean in Newcastle

[Caitilin]

Sigh. We have all been there, have we not? :grouphug:

 

On a positive note, she missed a month's worth of Latin rather than a semester's worth - it may seem very big, but in reality, it only means that you have to spread that extra month over the next several months along with her regular pace. It does not have to be overwhelming if you break it into small, concrete, digestible chunks - it will amount to an extra session or two weekly. Allot an extra time for this in your schedule, monitor her more strictly, and she will be fine and in line with your goals by the end of the year.

 

I would forgo the question of whose fault it is. A child will naturally blame an adult if she cannot handle that amount of freedom, while from your adult perspectivre it will all be about her laziness and deceit - the true blame probably being somewhere in the middle, with you overestimating her and her taking advantage of it. Focus on fixing what can be fixed.

:iagree::grouphug:

[Create Your Ritual]

I think the issue is more with the lying than with the month lost in Latin. You can start where you are with that. Honestly though, I have friends in ps whose kids have chosen not to turn work in, bring home their homework and not get busted until the teacher sent home the report card. These are 5th graders and I think sometimes the adults in their lives (ie the teachers, the parents) think that they will do it just because they are supposed to. That isn't exactly the case. ;-) Just know that you will have to make her more accountable, which means you have to be more accountable about looking. Beyond that, I would give her extra chores or take away things (whatever her particular currency is) for a time until she can show you that she can get the work done and turned in.

 

Keep your chin up though, as your dd isn't the first 10 year old to do this. ;-)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Keep your chin up though, as your dd isn't the first 10 year old to do this. ;-)

 

Thank you. :001_smile:

[Create Your Ritual]

I try to look at every thing like this as a learning opportunity. Now she is going to learn about personal responsibility and being accoutable for the work that she is supposed to do each day. They will step up, but at this age they also need someone making sure that they are.

 

I find the local public school teachers often just assume that a child will do the work and rarely will make the effort to contact the parent if they don't until report card time. That leaves the parent shaking their head wondering what happened, why the teacher didn't say anything earlier, and what was their dc thinking? In this instance, I too have been guilty of assuming my dc will just 'do' it without me 'checking' it. Sometimes they do .. but a lot of times they don't. LOL

 

What it boils down to is that personal accountability is something that has to be taught OVER and OVER again before or until they are at a place where they understand the repercussions of not getting the work done. When is that? hmmmm ... I know some adults that have never learned that lesson. ;-)

 

Good luck Jean. You are doing fine. I didn't read through all the posts to know what you ultimately said .. my goal really was just to tell you that this is a perfectly normal lesson that will be learned over and over again until they reach an age of maturity (or they realize their life will suck .. lol) and finally they just begin to do it on their own.

 

Here is to a better day!

[fairfarmhand]

I would apologize for getting so behind. But I would also expect an apology for the lying. Lying is NOT your fault.

 

I have been in similar situations and it stinks.

 

I would just have her do one extra lesson a day or a week, especially on days that the lesson may have been short to try to catch up. That would be the punishment for not doing the work.

 

There would be more punishments for the lying and I would be sure to delineate the 2.

[momma aimee]

I have had that happen so :grouphug::grouphug::group hug: to you. I think I insisted no joy until the work was caught up - no TV, no friends, no playing, no scouts, no nuthin'

 

i go one step more -- to take in account the lieing she has totally lost trust. if you want to see if her bed is made, make her STOP what she is doing and take you to see the bed. etc.

 

ALL School work is done next to mom, at a time convient to MOM. so she is inconviences to do ALL her work WITH mom, then so be it.

 

after a month or 45 days she can start to earn trust back. in the meantime, i would take many oppetunites to say in some form "I wish i could just trust you, but you need to show me / need to see"

 

I think her latin needs to double up for the rest of the semester. if she can only handle 10 minutes at a time as a student, and doubling up means 40 minutes -- then 4x a day she sits with you and does latin. if doubling up for the rest of year gets her past the end of her current book -- start over at teh start or move on -- do no let finishing latin early for the year be a reward

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and as for DH I'd calmly tell him; you can glace at school work at night as easy as i can. i may be teaching, but are still a parent. :) and let it go at that.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Good luck Jean. You are doing fine. I didn't read through all the posts to know what you ultimately said .. my goal really was just to tell you that this is a perfectly normal lesson that will be learned over and over again until they reach an age of maturity (or they realize their life will suck .. lol) and finally they just begin to do it on their own.

 

Here is to a better day!

 

Thank you SaDonna. I really appreciate your posts. Basically she lost outside play time yesterday and will continue to lose some playtime as a natural consequence of having to get caught up. She's shown not only remorse but has taken responsibility herself to draw up a plan to get herself caught up. I don't feel like further punishment would be helpful to her at this point. And I have learned that I need to at least check in her work, even if I can't check it for accuracy at that moment.

[momma aimee]

My issue is "lying" and "fault". The lying is the real issue, not whether or not you were a stellar grader. Lying and placing blame on another to escape responsibility is not acceptable, nor is soliciting sympathy from others about the situation.

 

I feel for you right now. She should miss out on something in order to make up the work she "already did". When she's finished, sit with her and grade it together. A lesson learned...

 

:iagree:

 

she took advantage of mom falling behind to skate and that is NOT personal responiblity

[mommaduck]

I have been grading all day because as hard as I try, I haven't been able to keep up when other important things have taken precedence lately.

 

I have been keeping up for the most part with Dd10's grading except for her Latin grading which was in a big pile because I would always run out of time before I got to it. Today I got to it. She has not done her Latin for a month. Everyday I ask "Did you do your Latin"? and she would look straight at me and say "yes".

 

Dh took the kids out sledding today. When dd10 got home, she planned to stop long enough to drink water and then play out in the snow with the neighborhood kids until supper. I put a stop to that because she was busted.

 

I did not give her an opportunity to lie further. I just told her that the evidence told me that she had not done her work.

 

I did not yell or scream or remonstrate her. I told her that she had time to drink and to get a snack, but then we needed to talk about the Latin situation. She screamed at me that it was all MY fault and then ran into her room. Dh came to tell me that it was all MY fault because I had not personally looked at every single bit of paper she hands in and had not known that she was lying to me.

 

Dd still has not come out of her room. I'm not totally sure what to do. I can't make her do a marathon make-up session because she's my "problem student" and needs steady teaching in order to actually learn. Teaching she was supposedly getting on DVD so that it's not like I was simply throwing her to the wind. But obviously even if she did listen to the DVD (which I know she did at least most of the time because I actually saw her doing that), she still needs time to incrementally do the practice drills and worksheets.

 

I'm thinking that not getting to go out to play is part of the punishment and having to work through at least part of the summer to make up the work in time is another natural consequence. But I'm not sure if that is enough for a 10 year old or not.

I have so been there. I flunked a kid for doing this one year in her math.

[Haiku]

Lying is NOT your fault.

 

 

Yeah, I'm always kinda baffled when people try to pin all negative behavior on the child's part on the parent. My kids have minds of their own. They make many of their own decisions, including the choice to misbehave when they know better.

 

Kids can be responsible for their own negative behavior without being awful people. Everyone acts badly sometimes. I think it's important to acknowledge that and not try to shunt responsibility for the child's behavior onto someone else.

 

A ten year old who chooses to lie about completing schoolwork also knows it's wrong to do so and makes her own choice in the matter.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

and as for DH I'd calmly tell him; you can glace at school work at night as easy as i can. i may be teaching, but are still a parent. :)

 

Right that. Funny that no one else mentioned that grading and checking up is not solely Mom's responsibility, especially after the recent big thread about parental involvement in schoolwork.

 

Tara

[Jan in SC]

If there is a bright side- she did this at 10, not 15! It happens. Kids lie and moms get busy with life. Things like this usually happen to me when I start thinking that everything is going great. It's a good way for me to snap back to reality and check priorities.

 

I couldn't go two hours without checking a paper, but I don't have a high school age child. (I'm also a bit of a control freak!) I would have been very angry with her for lying and very disappointed, too. I guess I would have punished my child, but that would have been my anger. I do give my kids checklists, but I absolutely check them everyday.

[Create Your Ritual]

Jean, it sounds like you and your daughter have come to a good resolution. It won't take long to get things back on track, and I am glad that you both are just going to move forward now.

 

I keep using the examples from public school, because this is truly a problem among students of all ages. If your dd was there and not at home, much of these lessons might be missed. Eventually missing assignments is going to catch up to anyone, but oftentimes because teachers are busy or whatever it is initially ignored.

 

I think one of the things I didn't realize when I brought my dc home was how much time would be spent on character building and behavior modification. LOL It could honestly be its own subject. ;-)

[jallison25]

Jean, fwiw, i think the consequences were fair :)

 

But this thread did lead to a question in my mind. For those people saying they have to stand over their children ages 10 and up to ensure the work gets done, i just wonder how this is going to benefit them in the long run. Certainly, in public school the teacher is not going to do this at this age. And many times children in public school don't get feedback on papers or whatever right away. As someone previously mentioned, sometimes it will be until the report card comes.

 

I know some people will say, well, my child will never go to public school. Ok, well, what if they want to go to college? I often had assignments that had small parts i was supposed to do every week but the final project wasn't turned in until the end of the quarter. The professors would not accept responsibility for my failing to do the work.

 

So, i guess i'm just curious. At what point do we need to teach independence and responsibility with regards to schoolwork?

[Joker]

Jean, fwiw, i think the consequences were fair :)

 

But this thread did lead to a question in my mind. For those people saying they have to stand over their children ages 10 and up to ensure the work gets done, i just wonder how this is going to benefit them in the long run. Certainly, in public school the teacher is not going to do this at this age. And many times children in public school don't get feedback on papers or whatever right away. As someone previously mentioned, sometimes it will be until the report card comes.

 

I know some people will say, well, my child will never go to public school. Ok, well, what if they want to go to college? I often had assignments that had small parts i was supposed to do every week but the final project wasn't turned in until the end of the quarter. The professors would not accept responsibility for my failing to do the work.

 

So, i guess i'm just curious. At what point do we need to teach independence and responsibility with regards to schoolwork?

 

I don't stand over my youngest, who is nine, but I do check work within two days to go over anything that was missed. My oldest is in ps for middle school this year and usually gets assignments back within a week so she (and we) can see anything that was missed and needs more work. She has had two long projects and I felt it was my job to ask how it was going every couple of days and to view her progress. My oldest is 12 and eventually it will all be on her but I think she's too young to not have someone making sure she stays on track. I'm thinking she's getting a bit more independence with school work now in middle school and by high school I will rarely check in with her but she can always ask for help.

[jallison25]

I don't stand over my youngest, who is nine, but I do check work within two days to go over anything that was missed. My oldest is in ps for middle school this year and usually gets assignments back within a week so she (and we) can see anything that was missed and needs more work. She has had two long projects and I felt it was my job to ask how it was going every couple of days and to view her progress. My oldest is 12 and eventually it will all be on her but I think she's too young to not have someone making sure she stays on track. I'm thinking she's getting a bit more independence with school work now in middle school and by high school I will rarely check in with her but she can always ask for help.

 

I have no problem with this though. I am genuinely curious when people say they have to stand right by their older children to ensure they complete work. Checking work often and checking in is not the same thing to me.

[Murphy101]

So, i guess i'm just curious. At what point do we need to teach independence and responsibility with regards to schoolwork?

 

Meh. I imagine at about the same age the home schooling mom starts independently and responsibly teaching and grading? I honestly have no snark there, but this board is full of moms with excuses and reasons and whining about how they just didn't get around to teaching or grading or whatever. I honestly do not understand expecting kids to manage their time and workload better than their instructor.

 

I expect my kids to struggle and learn and rethink this issue same as myself.

 

My kids sit with me for many reasons. And it isn't all about them being accountable to me either. If I am sitting in a room full of my kids doing school work and I am on the WTM - I notice the example I am setting more and am more likely to set to work myself. Again this board is full of grown women saying they struggle with this and asking how they can be more accountable. I don't think it fair to our kids that on the same board, 10 year olds and teens are expected to have more scholarly mastery and determination than their instructor?

 

I'm not judging those moms. It's not a cakewalk for me either. Been there and doing that.

 

But there is my unpopular opinion. I think it is normal for anyone to need accountability and to not want to work alone.

[Tammyla]

I think the issue of trust and honesty are very important for both of you.

 

Checking work, feedback and grading are very important, and the part of our job that is often the most neglected.

 

Your dd, may have intended to catch-up later as you did. Kwim? (You demonstrated for month, that you were not even looking at her papers.) She should be able to rely on you to follow through when no one is checking too.

 

If you are too busy to actually grade, L;);)k over her work daily.

[Colleen in NS]

...even if I can't check it for accuracy at that moment.

 

Can you take time from internet posting from now on, so that you *can* check for accuracy at the moment or within an hour or so of the moment? I ask because I saw that over a 15 hour period yesterday (while spending the day, I imagine frustratedly, doing catch-up grading?), you posted 38 times continuously. I also saw that you posted 13 times over a two hour period this morning, and I can see now that you are online again two hours after your last posting.

 

For those people saying they have to stand over their children ages 10 and up to ensure the work gets done, i just wonder how this is going to benefit them in the long run.

 

For mine, it will help them to see all the details that go into accomplishing a task well. It will also help them to understand a myriad of things such as: the thinking that resulted from writing assignment that required them to read and follow each direction, the grammar understanding that resulted from doing the diagrams properly, the language understanding that came from chanting those Latin grammar forms and doing translations accurately again, the logical understanding that came from doing those math problems methodically again, etc.. For me, it's not just about checking off a list; it's about making sure my kids understand the academic skills I want them to understand and eventually *use.* At times, this requires me to stand over them.

 

Ok, well, what if they want to go to college?

 

Over the long haul I have seen improvement in my kids' abilities to get their tasks done without me prodding so often. I plan to keep teaching them how to do school tasks and to keep them accountable for their schoolwork. I expect that they will be ready by 18 or 19 to take this task on for university. I also plan to make clear to them that different professors will have different expectations about how things should be done, and that the student needs to find ways to meet those expectations if they want to/need to take the class.

 

At what point do we need to teach independence and responsibility with regards to schoolwork?

 

For us, it's not at any one point - it's an ongoing process, from Grade 1, of handing over more responsibility. And so far, it's working for us.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[justamouse]

I have no problem with this though. I am genuinely curious when people say they have to stand right by their older children to ensure they complete work. Checking work often and checking in is not the same thing to me.

 

10 isn't older.

 

15 is older.

 

Heck, even my 16 yo tried to get away with stuff when I let her. And I wasn't a hand holder.

 

So I learned to check-every day, and you know what? I sucked at it. So, for me, what works is sitting there, ans checking as they go. They're working, I'm working, all is well.

 

FWIW, I agree with Martha.

[LibraryLover]

Jean, what Latin program are you using? I don't have one with a DVD. I would love to get out of this equation with my kid.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Can you take time from internet posting from now on, so that you *can* check for accuracy at the moment or within an hour or so of the moment? I ask because I saw that over a 15 hour period yesterday (while spending the day, I imagine frustratedly, doing catch-up grading?), you posted 38 times continuously. I also saw that you posted 13 times over a two hour period this morning, and I can see now that you are online again two hours after your last posting.

.

 

 

I'm not sure this is cricket.

 

I've done it before and really regretted that I delved that much into a poster's board habits and then exposed them for all to see. I was trying to help, but in retrospect if somebody did this to me I'd be so embarrassed I'd never come back.

 

The internet gives us all an idea that we're anonymous and hard to figure out. We aren't all that anonymous, but it is still true that nobody can really know what's going on at somebody's house while they're busy online.

 

We've all said that kids need supervision, accountability, and company, and we've all said that we learned that the hard way after letting our own children fall of the edge once or twice. Surely Jean gets it now.

[Myra]

I don't think I would "punish" my child. Rather....I think I would sit down and have a serious one on one conversation about integrity, trust, and responsibility. I would want her/him to admit to her lying and the implications that has for her own self-worth and the effects on "our" relationship. I would also go over my part in the problem for not being the adult supervising more closely. Then we would need to come up with a game plan together that starts with working together on Latin for the next month, then 2nd month working one day together, next independently, then 3rd month...well, you get the idea. No punishment but rather a learnable moment for your daughter and for your relationship with her.

 

Myra

[Catwoman]

She's shown not only remorse but has taken responsibility herself to draw up a plan to get herself caught up. I don't feel like further punishment would be helpful to her at this point. And I have learned that I need to at least check in her work, even if I can't check it for accuracy at that moment.

 

Personally, I think the fact that she very quickly recognized that what she'd done was wrong, was genuinely remorseful, and has already come up with a plan (on her own) to get caught up in Latin says a tremendous amount about her overall character -- in a very good way.

 

This is a good kid who did something wrong, not a kid who is constantly doing things wrong and has no conscience about it. I think everything will work out fine, as this is a lesson that will stick in your dd's mind. It sounds like she has probably beaten herself up about it more than any punishment ever could.

 

I would start checking her work more frequently, but I wouldn't mention the Latin Incident again.

[Catwoman]

Can you take time from internet posting from now on, so that you *can* check for accuracy at the moment or within an hour or so of the moment? I ask because I saw that over a 15 hour period yesterday (while spending the day, I imagine frustratedly, doing catch-up grading?), you posted 38 times continuously. I also saw that you posted 13 times over a two hour period this morning, and I can see now that you are online again two hours after your last posting.

 

Wow. Judgmental much? :001_huh:

 

I don't think Jean deserves a visit from the Forum Police. She's a wonderful person who has helped so many of us on this forum, and I am shocked that you would post this kind of comment.

 

I'm sure you didn't intend to be offensive, but you really came across that way. (And I must admit I'm surprised, because you're usually very nice. Are you just having a lousy day?)

Edited January 19, 2012 by Catwoman

[foxbridgeacademy]

The question of her lying aside, I don't expect my 10yo to work independently on Latin, or without daily feedback. Am I correct in understanding that if she had done the work, she would have completed a month's worth of assignments with no feedback? If so, I'd set Latin aside entirely until she could get more teacher support or farm it entirely out.

:iagree:She probably feels very frustrated with the work and didn't know how to tell you. As to the lying, I would talk about how she needs to come to you if something is to hard or she needs help. That no matter what the problem is together you can solve it. Then I'd ground her for at least 2 days. Of course during the 2 days make sure you spend extra time with her talking and just being together.

[katilac]

Wow. Judgmental much? :001_huh:

 

I don't think Jean deserves a visit from the Forum Police. She's a wonderful person who has helped so many of us on this forum, and I am shocked that you would post this kind of comment.

 

I'm sure you didn't intend to be offensive, but you really came across that way. (And I must admit I'm surprised, because you're usually very nice. Are you just having a lousy day?)

 

:iagree:

 

That was incredibly rude and uncalled for. Karma is now rubbing her hands with glee, anticipating a tasty bite of your butt sometime in the future.

[Colleen in NS]

but it is still true that nobody can really know what's going on at somebody's house while they're busy online.

 

You are right - I do not know what goes on in her life - that is why I asked my question. The comment of Jean's that I quoted makes me think she still isn't sure she will have time to grade consistently, and that puzzled me in light of the facts I easily saw (and that anyone can easily see). But I could have misunderstood that particular post. But that's how I interpreted it, so I asked, stating facts so that she would understand why I asked.

 

Wow. Judgmental much? :001_huh:

 

I don't think Jean deserves a visit from the Forum Police. She's a wonderful person who has helped so many of us on this forum, and I am offended on her behalf that you would post this kind of comment.

 

Maybe you didn't intend to be offensive, but you really came across that way. (And I must admit I'm surprised, because you're usually very nice. Are you just having a lousy day?)

 

I'm having a fine day. I didn't judge anything. I haven't said anything about her character.

 

ETA: To anyone who posts to me after this, I ask that you please read my post to Jean (and this post) very carefully before reacting with a negative opinion about it or about me. I meant no embarrassment to Jean. Thank you.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Virg]

I am totally in agreement with Jean and the consequence I gave would be similar to the ones she did. (Although DH would have probably come home and added more.) I think lying was the issue and it is encouraging how her DD responded.

[Denisemomof4]

Personally, I think the fact that she very quickly recognized that what she'd done was wrong, was genuinely remorseful, and has already come up with a plan (on her own) to get caught up in Latin says a tremendous amount about her overall character -- in a very good way.

 

This is a good kid who did something wrong, not a kid who is constantly doing things wrong and has no conscience about it. I think everything will work out fine, as this is a lesson that will stick in your dd's mind. It sounds like she has probably beaten herself up about it more than any punishment ever could.

 

I would start checking her work more frequently, but I wouldn't mention the Latin Incident again.

 

:iagree: This is excellent!

 

I admire you and your dd both for coming together and working this out in such a beautiful way. :001_smile:

[Denisemomof4]

Colleen, please respect some boundaries here. It is up to Jean to decide whether or not her time is being spent wisely.

 

Jean is one of the most respected people here. She has a heart of gold and reaches out to many of us. It pains ME to see you posting things like this. Jean is a very wise woman. Im confident she doesnt need our input on her time spent here. We don't need to keep tabs on her. You've made your point. Please stop now.

[Denisemomof4]

Jean, what Latin program are you using? I don't have one with a DVD. I would love to get out of this equation with my kid.

 

I was wondering this myself.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You are right - I do not know what goes on in her life - that is why I asked my question. The comment of Jean's that I quoted makes me think she still isn't sure she will have time to grade consistently, and that puzzled me in light of the facts I easily saw (and that anyone can easily see). But I could have misunderstood that particular post. But that's how I interpreted it, so I asked, stating facts so that she would understand why I asked.

 

 

 

I'm having a fine day. I didn't judge anything. I haven't said anything about her character.

 

ETA: To anyone who posts to me after this, I ask that you please read my post to Jean (and this post) very carefully before reacting with a negative opinion about it or about me. I meant no embarrassment to Jean. Thank you.

 

What I do with my own time is my own business. All I asked for input on in this thread was whether dd should have a further consequence for her lying. That has been asked and answered. Yes, I got behind in grading one subject out of 15 that I grade. Yes - 15 between dd10 and ds14 - 14 of which I was able to keep up with during the last month. Yes, there was a consequence to me as a teacher and to dd as a student for me getting behind in that subject. I am dealing with that. I appreciate those who gave me specific advice on that as it did mitigate how I dealt with the lying.

 

I am not embarrassed. I am, however, livid that someone would overstep their boundaries so much as to poke into my internet habits. We did not do school yesterday because dh was home and there was a snow storm. Dh and the children were gone much of the day during which time I got caught up in grading - the last few assignments for 14 subjects and the Latin for dd. In between times for breaks I came onto this forum. But I suppose you knew all this since you think it is your business to look into what I do and how I do it.