Penn State's Joe Paterno has been *fired*

[Rhonda in TX]

Here a link to a timeline of events.

[Scarlett]

Well, next time, I think alcohol should be involved (for me). :001_huh: My kids are the masters at driving a conversation into insane rabbit holes, and today, that's what happened. About 4x my eyes rolled to the back of my head, as they got stuck on minutiae, and my dh did his best to keep things level. He's a peach. :)

 

In the end, I think the message got through. My main theme was:

 

Adults should act like adults. Any adult acting too friendly or touching you more than normal is someone you can tell to BACK OFF! We practiced saying BACK OFF firmly. I even had them say, BACK OFF JACKASS. -- That took awhile to get them to say*. Why did I choose that? Because it is not language of "Stop. Don't touch my bathing suit area." That's arguable. BACK OFF J.A. isn't really an arguable stance, and most likely those words would suprise an adult coming from a child.

 

I also stress on a regular basis that bad people aren't being bad 100% of the day, so that our chance of having any bad encounter is pretty low. I certainly don't want them paranoid of an imminent attack. Also, I said if they weren't sure it was a BACK OFF situation, that they can physically move away no matter what the person says and get to Mom and Dad as soon as possible, and discuss it with us.

 

As you can see, I'll never win any awards for keeping people safe. Or raising politically correct kids.

 

 

*Technically, it's just an alternate term for donkey. Once I told them that, they finally said it. ;)

 

Ok, I told my ds he could say Back Off JackAss! He was all :001_huh: and then :lol:. He said he would just kick them in the *alls.

[Laurie4b]

The unhealthy dynamic that permeates professional sports and big college sports IS the reason this happened the way it did. It's a symbiotic relationship; the sports machine would not exist if it didn't have the demand from fans. This demand fuels the machine which manufactures situations that create the PSU scandal.

 

Less dramatic, less publicized events happen daily in the sports community as a direct result of valuing sports to this degree.

 

I think it's much broader than sports and I don't think sports culture specifically can be blamed for this. It happens in schools (where administrators quietly move along teachers suspected of inappropriate sexual relationships with kids and they get a positive reference in exchange for resigning quietly), churches of various denominations, community organizations such as YMCAs, etc.

 

I think the broader problem is that when there is a conflict of interest between protecting an image and/or protecting $$ versus protecting children, children lose. I think blaming sports culture actually is a distraction; it can and will happen anywhere those dynamics are in play. They are certainly at play in sports, but focusing the attention on sports as if that itself is the issue allows the broader issue to be obscured and people to be surprised as yet again the same dynamics happen in another venue. People were fond of blaming the Catholic church as if there were something specific about that institution that was to blame, too. (I am not Catholic). Now surprise, surprise! We find out that Penn State leadership followed the same course of action.

[Joker]

Here a link to a timeline of events.

 

 

That's just horrible. According to that timeline the authorities were told more than once. I really don't understand.

[Scarlett]

Here a link to a timeline of events.

 

That was very helpful, thank you.

[brendag]

I haven't read all 20+ pages of responses to this thread so maybe I'm just stating what others have already said, but I definitely agree that anyone that had an inkling that something happened should be held accountable in some way.

 

Paterno should have asked himself this question. If he had a son that was in that boys situation, would he be satisfied with people not going to the police and just talking to a supervisor? My guess is no, but if he were to answer yes to that question, that would say something even worse about his character!

 

If anything, maybe people will take this as a reminder to talk to their kids about protecting themselves. Parents also need to educate themselves about the "grooming" process that abusers often use and what to look out for.

 

Brenda

[pqr]

How, how did two adults actually witness a sexual assault on a child and not intervene?

 

These two creatures (they are not men by any character or moral definition) are amazing scientific curiosities; invertebrates who can walk upright. It simply boggles the mind, what has happened to the American male?

Edited November 10, 2011 by pqr

[Starr]

At least BBC calls it , "a child abuse scandal."

[Joanne]

I think it's much broader than sports and I don't think sports culture specifically can be blamed for this. It happens in schools (where administrators quietly move along teachers suspected of inappropriate sexual relationships with kids and they get a positive reference in exchange for resigning quietly), churches of various denominations, community organizations such as YMCAs, etc.

 

 

 

But in the case of college (or professional sports), the fans are the $. Without the fans, there is no interest, no compelling need to create a sports machine that would create, from early, early, ages and throughout the educational process.

 

I agree that there are concerns, abuses, and issues in the other situations you mentioned. But in the case of sports, it is $$. Without fans, there is not a program. Without fans, there is no one watching; therefore no advertising.

 

The culture of sports is *absolutely* a part of what happened.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

But in the case of college (or professional sports), the fans are the $. Without the fans, there is no interest, no compelling need to create a sports machine that would create, from early, early, ages and throughout the educational process.

 

I agree that there are concerns, abuses, and issues in the other situations you mentioned. But in the case of sports, it is $$. Without fans, there is not a program. Without fans, there is no one watching; therefore no advertising.

 

The culture of sports is *absolutely* a part of what happened.

 

You are not making a very compelling case for your view point. The driving force in these scandals/cover ups (PSU, Catholic church, etc) is always money and power. Paterno had built a cult of personality and a power base at PSU through sports, but it wasn't the culture of sports that lead to what happened. Religion/the culture of religion was not part of the equation in the sexual abuse by priests either.

[mcconnellboys]

My concern is that a pedophile generally does not simply blossom in his mid-40's. I don't believe for a minute that this guy started molesting young boys around 1994. I believe that he started molesting young boys around 1977, when he founded his charity and had access to them. And if he was able, he was probably molesting them before then, too.... My guess is that there's another 16+ years of molestation that remains hidden at this time....

 

And why, oh why wasn't he prosecuted in 1998? It certainly looks to me like there was enough evidence to do that and it certainly looks like they forced him to retire at that time in order to try to avoid further difficulties on campus as a result of his behavior. If the charges would have been announced at that time, I feel certain others would have come forward just as they have now....

 

I'm wondering how many molested kids from the 80's there might be, now in their 30's - 40's. They probably would not come forward now.... It seems he chose well. His victims were all athletes, most of whom would probably rather die than admit that something like him happened to them....

[mcconnellboys]

And I think his wife should be charged, too....

[pfamilygal]

Well, next time, I think alcohol should be involved (for me). :001_huh: My kids are the masters at driving a conversation into insane rabbit holes, and today, that's what happened. About 4x my eyes rolled to the back of my head, as they got stuck on minutiae, and my dh did his best to keep things level. He's a peach. :)

 

In the end, I think the message got through. My main theme was:

 

Adults should act like adults. Any adult acting too friendly or touching you more than normal is someone you can tell to BACK OFF! We practiced saying BACK OFF firmly. I even had them say, BACK OFF JACKASS. -- That took awhile to get them to say*. Why did I choose that? Because it is not language of "Stop. Don't touch my bathing suit area." That's arguable. BACK OFF J.A. isn't really an arguable stance, and most likely those words would suprise an adult coming from a child.

 

I also stress on a regular basis that bad people aren't being bad 100% of the day, so that our chance of having any bad encounter is pretty low. I certainly don't want them paranoid of an imminent attack. Also, I said if they weren't sure it was a BACK OFF situation, that they can physically move away no matter what the person says and get to Mom and Dad as soon as possible, and discuss it with us.

 

As you can see, I'll never win any awards for keeping people safe. Or raising politically correct kids.

 

 

*Technically, it's just an alternate term for donkey. Once I told them that, they finally said it. ;)

 

Good for you. My five year old got separated from us at the water park during the dive-in movie. I asked for help finding him. The lifeguard found him and was carrying him to us. He was raising a ruckus, kicking and screaming "You're not my mom or dad!" at the top of his lungs. She looked really pissed and said, "You should teach him that it's always okay to go with someone with a badge." The hell I will! I waited til we were out of earshot and congratulated him on doing exactly what we taught him. Some perps wear badges!

 

(I did feel kind of sorry for her, but he probably would have walked with her. Or she could have radioed the front letting them know he'd been found and we would have come to him. She's lucky he didn't bite her or kick her in the crotch!)

[bettyandbob]

But in the case of college (or professional sports), the fans are the $. Without the fans, there is no interest, no compelling need to create a sports machine that would create, from early, early, ages and throughout the educational process.

 

I agree that there are concerns, abuses, and issues in the other situations you mentioned. But in the case of sports, it is $$. Without fans, there is not a program. Without fans, there is no one watching; therefore no advertising.

 

The culture of sports is *absolutely* a part of what happened.

 

 

I sort of agree with Joanne on this. (w/o reviewing all 20 pages of comments to find the whole conversation). Penn State saw itself as a brand. An official said so this morning in explaining the decision to fire Paterno. Keeping Paterno as coach in these circumstances was hurting the Penn State brand. I believe if the school saw itself as a brand that way then the actions of Paterno, the grad student, the athletic director in not reporting the incident to police were also actions to protect the "brand". Now, that I've looked at the timeline and see that college police investigated in 98 and closed the case, I'm sure that decision was related to the Penn State brand. There were bunches of people within this university's culture putting the "brand" ahead of victims for a long time.

 

The "brand" is what brings money to the school. A woman I worked with for several years took a day off work every year to drive to Penn State (from another state) to get her season tickets--she wouldn't choose to have the tickets delivered to her. I don't if it was an option, but she made it clear that she wouldn't considered it an option to have the tickets delivered she needed to get them in her hands and hold on to them. And of course she drove back every home game. She would go without electricity before she gave up purchasing tickets. I live 2 states away, judging from the bumper stickers and window banners around here the Penn State brand is valuable.

[pfamilygal]

I think it's much broader than sports and I don't think sports culture specifically can be blamed for this. It happens in schools (where administrators quietly move along teachers suspected of inappropriate sexual relationships with kids and they get a positive reference in exchange for resigning quietly), churches of various denominations, community organizations such as YMCAs, etc.

 

I think the broader problem is that when there is a conflict of interest between protecting an image and/or protecting $$ versus protecting children, children lose. I think blaming sports culture actually is a distraction; it can and will happen anywhere those dynamics are in play. They are certainly at play in sports, but focusing the attention on sports as if that itself is the issue allows the broader issue to be obscured and people to be surprised as yet again the same dynamics happen in another venue. People were fond of blaming the Catholic church as if there were something specific about that institution that was to blame, too. (I am not Catholic). Now surprise, surprise! We find out that Penn State leadership followed the same course of action.

 

I heard one of the priests involved with sex abuse investigations on NPR. He said most of the Irish priests involved in the Irish scandal were schooled/trained at one specific parish. And it was a very particular way they approached the boys. Ewwww.

 

But I agree. Big institutions cover things up so as to not besmirch the name of (fill in the blank - school/church/Jesus/whatever). And the victims are encouraged to be quiet to preserve the honor of the institution.

[GWOB]

Nebraska should walk off the field in protest. What a worm.

 

A 28 year old man is old enough to at least TRY to protect a child. Heck, I'm a 5'2" girl and I'd still run in, punch the jerk as hard as I could, start screaming, grab the kid and go to the cops.

 

That won't happen. Because then Nebraska would take a loss, as a forfeit.

 

(I hate the word forfeit. what happened to 'i before e except after c'?)

 

:iagree: What should Nebraska's response be? I can't imagine Nebraska fans reacting well.

 

I live in Nebraska, though I am NOT a Husker fan. Do you know what the lead story was on the Omaha news tonight? "Husker fans are worried about their safety." They barely mentioned the fact that children were raped and those actions were covered up by the Penn State admin. They went on and on about how Husker fans were supposed to keep a low profile while at the game. Nebraska would never forfeit that game. Back in the '90s NE football players were accused of raping young women and no one did anything about it. The accused players were allowed to play and were never investigated until after they left. Nebraska has no room to judge.

 

 

I am a huge fan of college footbal, but I admit there is a nasty underside to it. People seem to forget that young adults go to college to learn, not just play football. At least that SHOULD be the point. This whole situation just makes me want to vomit.

[pqr]

 

People seem to forget that young adults go to college to learn, not just play football. At least that SHOULD be the point. This whole situation just makes me want to vomit.

 

Some actually go in order to play football and are not interested in learning anything and that is a great shame.

[Crissy]

Big institutions cover things up so as to not besmirch the name of (fill in the blank - school/church/Jesus/whatever). And the victims are encouraged to be quiet to preserve the honor of the institution.

 

I think this and the existence of the 'good ol' boys network' is the reason for this sort of thing. It's about misplaced loyalty and self-preservation among those in power.

Suggesting that fans and alumni contribute to a culture of abuse is ridiculous. :glare:

[5kidsforME]

I think this and the existence of the 'good ol' boys network' is the reason for this sort of thing. It's about misplaced loyalty and self-preservation among those in power.

Suggesting that fans and alumni contribute to a culture of abuse is ridiculous. :glare:

 

 

I completely agree.

[nono]

Here's an article from the Daily Beast following along Joanne's line of thinking. WARNING: Very rough language, but the guy makes a point!

[elegantlion]

:001_huh:

 

 

 

So then I went on to ask him how many men has he ever been alone with. 3. My Dad, ds's dad and my husband. I asked him if he thought that was a coincidence or intentional. :) He got a big light bulb moment look on his face.

 

 

We also talked about why Paterno was fired....and the importance of standing up and doing the right thing when someone is being harmed.

 

It went ok.

 

Good for you, we had a few light bulb moments today too. I hope we (as in this group) will see our boys become men who will stand up without hesitation when necessary.

[ZooRho]

And I think his wife should be charged, too....

Why?

 

Now I will say, in some ways you are right. I think there are some bigger trigger points that should have triggered her to notices.

 

But I have a friend whose dh ened up being a pedifile. She was clueless, totally. And this guy evidently, was huge into the whole mess, with lots of stuff on the computer, but it was all encrypted and she had no idea, neither did his business partner.

 

Yes in hind sight she now sees so much more. But at the moment she was clueless.

[Pippen]

And why, oh why wasn't he prosecuted in 1998? It certainly looks to me like there was enough evidence to do that and it certainly looks like they forced him to retire at that time in order to try to avoid further difficulties on campus as a result of his behavior. If the charges would have been announced at that time, I feel certain others would have come forward just as they have now....

 

Retired him, but didn't send him packing. Reports say he still had an office and campus email and was listed as an assistant professor emeritus as recently as last week.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/11/08/sandusky-penn-state-campus.ap/index.html

 

I bet what will show up down the road is that they didn't sever ties with him because he was a big time fund raiser for the university.

[Harriet Vane]

Here's an article from the Daily Beast following along Joanne's line of thinking. WARNING: Very rough language, but the guy makes a point!

 

I appreciate this guy's willingness to speak honestly. Good for him.

[TravelingChris]

I have a huge problem with Joanne's position. No one who has watched sports is guilty in this unless they actually are. So, under the logic of Joanne's argument, anyone who watched a Democratic debate in 2008 is partially guilty for the absolutely horrible way John Edwards treated his dying wife and the crimes he is alleged to have committed just like anyone watching the Republican debates could be said to be guilty of helping Cain harass women, if that is actually what he has done and if you watch a re-run of 2 and 1/2 men from a few years ago, you are guilty for Charlie Sheen and his ridiculous behavior. Well I don't accept that. I also don't like the holier than thou attitude-- oh, someone who watches college or professional sports is so bad but not someone who watches other tv??? You think that the tv and movie industry is squeeky clean??? All professions and industries have their bad apples but that doesn't mean just because one doctor is a murderer all of them are or because one coach is a rapist, all of them are. Furthermore. you are blaming the consumers who have very little to do with the private behavior of coaches. For that matter, Joe Paterno was so concerned about his record of no NCAA violations that he decided to cover -up and therefore let continue horrific sexual abuse of young boys. I would so much rather any coach have NCAA violations like giving gifts to the players versus what happened here. There is simply no comparison.

[5kidsforME]

I have a huge problem with Joanne's position. No one who has watched sports is guilty in this unless they actually are. So, under the logic of Joanne's argument, anyone who watched a Democratic debate in 2008 is partially guilty for the absolutely horrible way John Edwards treated his dying wife and the crimes he is alleged to have committed just like anyone watching the Republican debates could be said to be guilty of helping Cain harass women, if that is actually what he has done and if you watch a re-run of 2 and 1/2 men from a few years ago, you are guilty for Charlie Sheen and his ridiculous behavior. Well I don't accept that. I also don't like the holier than thou attitude-- oh, someone who watches college or professional sports is so bad but not someone who watches other tv??? You think that the tv and movie industry is squeeky clean??? All professions and industries have their bad apples but that doesn't mean just because one doctor is a murderer all of them are or because one coach is a rapist, all of them are. Furthermore. you are blaming the consumers who have very little to do with the private behavior of coaches. For that matter, Joe Paterno was so concerned about his record of no NCAA violations that he decided to cover -up and therefore let continue horrific sexual abuse of young boys. I would so much rather any coach have NCAA violations like giving gifts to the players versus what happened here. There is simply no comparison.

 

Yes, yes, yes.

:iagree:

[StephanieZ]

But he had reported it to the athletic director.

 

Yeah, who cares?

 

That may have legally covered his rear, but morally, no way.

 

This was a grown man in a position of responsibility. This was not some low level unempowered employee. He had a duty to REPORT IT to the police, the media, put up a billboard. . . whatever it took to make sure that man no longer had access to children.

 

Kids were raped. If he had done something more, then fewer kids would have been raped. I'm sorry, but I can't be sympathetic to him.

[Joanne]

I have a huge problem with Joanne's position. No one who has watched sports is guilty in this unless they actually are. So, under the logic of Joanne's argument, anyone who watched a Democratic debate in 2008 is partially guilty for the absolutely horrible way John Edwards treated his dying wife and the crimes he is alleged to have committed just like anyone watching the Republican debates could be said to be guilty of helping Cain harass women, if that is actually what he has done and if you watch a re-run of 2 and 1/2 men from a few years ago, you are guilty for Charlie Sheen and his ridiculous behavior. Well I don't accept that. I also don't like the holier than thou attitude-- oh, someone who watches college or professional sports is so bad but not someone who watches other tv??? You think that the tv and movie industry is squeeky clean??? All professions and industries have their bad apples but that doesn't mean just because one doctor is a murderer all of them are or because one coach is a rapist, all of them are. Furthermore. you are blaming the consumers who have very little to do with the private behavior of coaches. For that matter, Joe Paterno was so concerned about his record of no NCAA violations that he decided to cover -up and therefore let continue horrific sexual abuse of young boys. I would so much rather any coach have NCAA violations like giving gifts to the players versus what happened here. There is simply no comparison.

 

Your arguments are not logical or valid.

 

College (and professional) sports are an entity/momentum of their own. The process and ramifications start in elemetary school. The abuses in the system, the hyperfocus on the athletes, the competitiveness just increases as they age. The abuses are legend, and, even with increased regulations over the years, are still present.

 

None of this would be in operation if it werent' for the symbiotic relationship between the fans, college, and sports mechanism.

 

The individual behaviors of political persons (or hopefuls ;)) is a totally different situation. Watching the debates does not feed the system, or have ties to the hiding of systemic issues. Contributing to a campaign might.

 

There is a limited comparison to be made between watching 2 and a Half Men and being in support of Charlie's outrageousness. You watch, that increases demand for the show, and allows it to continue and sells product. T.V. is a vehicle for sales.

 

So, yes, I stand by my statements. The culture which created the choices made by Paterno, et al, was made possible and likely because of the sports culture. Much lesser abuses, outrages, and events are happening in the sports culture as I type.

 

It is not a clean, health, or good system.

[Rivka]

So out of fear, he accepted a promotion to assistant coach?

 

I'm not going to defend McQuaery.

[Laurie4b]

Because the value system is all screwed up? I do not feel badly either that they have lost their jobs -- I do agree there should be stiffer consequences -- hit them where it hurts, in the wallet. It is sad and frightening that children are so endangered in our society.

 

My guess is that now that this has all come out that they will get hit in their wallets as named plaintiffs in civil suits that may drag on for years. None will live a peaceful life from here on out.

[Joanne]

I think this and the existence of the 'good ol' boys network' is the reason for this sort of thing. It's about misplaced loyalty and self-preservation among those in power.

Suggesting that fans and alumni contribute to a culture of abuse is ridiculous. :glare:

 

 

How does the good ole boy network, loyalty, and position to abuse power exist if it weren't for the hundreds of millions of $ spent in advertising (to fans), on betting (legal in Las Vegas, and illegal and informally everywhere else and online), on the "brand" of each major team? The system referenced in the quote above exists because the American public participates and fuels it.

[Laurie4b]

And if he didn't know.....it's because he didn't WANT to know.

 

.

 

:iagree:

[Starr]

Joanne, you could have a thesis in the works here! :D

[Crissy]

How does the good ole boy network, loyalty, and position to abuse power exist if it weren't for the hundreds of millions of $ spent in advertising (to fans), on betting (legal in Las Vegas, and illegal and informally everywhere else and online), on the "brand" of each major team? The system referenced in the quote above exists because the American public participates and fuels it.

 

Money is not a necessary component of cronyism, loyalty and social power. These ideas and protections exist in groups, large and small, in communities everywhere.

[Joanne]

Money is not a necessary component of cronyism, loyalty and social power. These ideas and protections exist in groups, large and small, in communities everywhere.

 

But *this* is a case of sports, of college sports, of PSU. THIS outrage belongs to an established system that involves not only the cronyism, but the fuel behind the cronyism.

 

Like it or not, that fuel is the public.

[Alte Veste Academy]

How does the good ole boy network, loyalty, and position to abuse power exist if it weren't for the hundreds of millions of $ spent in advertising (to fans), on betting (legal in Las Vegas, and illegal and informally everywhere else and online), on the "brand" of each major team? The system referenced in the quote above exists because the American public participates and fuels it.

 

I think you would find a great deal more support for your position regarding the ills of sports culture had you not cast blame on fans. Obviously fan involvement helps drive the college football machine. However, the assertion that fans are partly culpable for the behavior of those who overlooked the rape and sexual assault of children is extrapolation gone way too far. Wagging your finger at fans, especially when they are simultaneously incensed and saddened, is to seriously misplace blame.

 

I think that the culpability is larger than that, and is part of the sports culture. Those who participate, watch, and are fans, are part of the culture that created this problem. To have an alma-mater, to be a fan is fine but please don't do so thinking that the sports culture is healthy.

 

Thanks for your permission? :001_huh: Not so much for the admonition. I'm thinking some college football fans here might be feeling a bit like the girl wearing the short skirt who "was asking for it." I mean, we were buying hats and sweatshirts and paying way too much for hot dogs. Surely we had to know what was going on behind closed doors. :confused:

[NittanyJen]

But he had reported it to the athletic director.

 

He did better than that. He also reported it to the head of campus police, whose job it was to follow through with the off-campus police and upper admin, and who, unlike JoePa, knew about the earlier investigation. Sandusky, who was retired, did not work for Joe ny longer.

 

There is no indication that Joe got the detailed report we sickeningly read in the GJ report, nor is he trained to extract such from a distraught witness. He took the (possibly, we don't know yet) vague report from another person and directed it to the people who have that training.

 

The Vice-Chair of the board stated that they had no specific reason to fire him, they just wanted to be seen as taking "some" action (say what?). The board also admitted it operated without any facts.

 

You end the career of a distinguished educator and mentor, who has (possibly; some of us await actual facts before convicting people) only hindsight to guide him in wishing he had done more (who doesn't? This situation is incomprehensible in its horror) without facts, and for what you admit is no reason, and think this action will improve the situation?

 

I do not approve of violence or mob behavior, but am hardly surprised in an environment in which so many emotions run so high, and then the board of trustees bows to the media and exercises such poor judgement.

 

This is not about football. This is not about the house that JoePa built. It is about not compounding horror and unfathomable choices with further errors.

 

Try reading the article on PennLive about the sister of one of the victims, currently a Penn State student. She is where we should be focusing and supporting the efforts of the board. She specifically says she does not blame Joe-- so why do you? Because the media told you to, despite a lack of evidence or logical reason to do so. Because Joe, not victims, grab headlines. Shame on the board for not seeing this and remaining focused on those who are important in this situation!

 

For those who forgot the victims altogether in the joy of a good feeding frenzy and started making suggestions about shutting down the university or the football program, shame on you, too.

 

Penn State is an amazing university which runs a spectacular cooperative extension, supporting farmers and 4-H groups throughout the state. It provides a world-class education, including a top medical school, and is affiliated with a children's cancer center without which thousands of children would be dead. It's scholars program lures top students away from full scholarships at ivy-league schools (I should know-- I married one of them). Its faculty is top-flight. And let's discuss the football program, which has one of the top graduation records of any division I school, in real majors. Football players from PSU are now doctors, lawyers, soldiers, scientists, and more. Joe has benched players merely for skipping a single class-- first string marquee players scheduled to play. Oh, and don't forget the over $4 million he and SuePa donated to the library system alone.

 

Do not confuse my points!

 

None of the above make Joe innocent or untouchable! Those points show how silly it is to deride a world-class university, or its football program over the actions of Jerry Sandusky, a long-retired assistant coach. His actions are heinous. An investigation needs to be made about how this happened. I just fail to see how crucifying JoePa absent any facts, just because it makes great headlines, is the answer.

 

Many of you tsk tsk the students for thoughtlessly jumping on a bandwagon, writing them off as just kids, or not understanding because they aren't parents. Well, I'm no kid, and my sons are 8 and 10. I'm horrified at the bandwagon jumping here, that so many would celebrate the senseless ending of a career without facts or logic, and completely overlooking the fact that the media invented the entire furor over Joe because they didn't have any new stories about the victims for a bit!

 

Let's leave Joe alone-- the press has done enough damage-- and focus our energies on what the victims and their families must be going through now that they must relive all of this. I cannot imagine the horror. My heart breaks when I retread that PennLive interview with the sister.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Your arguments are not logical or valid.

 

Well, your argument may seem logical to you, but it is certainly not valid, in part because it implies that being a fan somehow equals support for immoral behavior.

[mcconnellboys]

I'm sorry, but I read the indictment this morning. He had a bedroom specially built for these boys in his basement. He went down there at bedtime and initiated them into some weird touching rituals to try to habituate them to his touch. He went down in the middle of the night and did things. His wife had to have had some clue that he was spending too much time in the basement bedroom with those boys and at inappropriate times.

 

Also, he traveled to various sporting events with various boys on a regular basis and spent the night in hotel rooms with them. Alone. Just he and the boy. There have been rules in place for years and YEARS regarding no time spent alone in a room with a minor. He was the head of a charity organization. Such groups have to adhere to such rules just as teachers, ministers, scouting leaders, YMCA leaders, or any other sorts of adults who deal with children. His wife MUST have known something unless she WANTED to be deaf and blind....

 

He called some of these kids literallly hundreds of times when they tried to start avoiding him. Did she never see his cell phone bill or happen to look at his phone and wonder why he would be doing such things?

 

He stayed out way, waaaaaaay too late after sporting events with those boys (utilizing empty locker rooms, etc.) She never questioned such extremely late night goings on with very young boys (always in the 10-12 age range, apparently).... Why would they be in an empty locker room with him at midnight or later? The night the janitor caught him, he stated that he continued to drive back and forth through the parking lot for some reason until about 3 a.m. She never wondered where he was or what he was doing out so late with little boys? Come on....

 

If he was just viewing things on his computer, not engaging in regular activities at his own home (with his wife present) as well as elsewhere, if no other charges had ever been filed that should have alerted her, if, if, if, then maybe she could be said to be clueless. This lady was not clueless, in my opinion....

[Crissy]

But *this* is a case of sports, of college sports, of PSU. THIS outrage belongs to an established system that involves not only the cronyism, but the fuel behind the cronyism.

 

Like it or not, that fuel is the public.

 

We'll just have to disagree. I don't believe cronyism requires 'fuel' from any public entity or outside group. It exists among an assembly of people whether or not they have outside persuasion.

As I said elsewhere, I believe that if this particular group of men found themselves in the same situation but in a different profession, the results, unfortunately, would have been the same. The number of years they spent working closely together had more to do with their willingness to cover for each other than their affiliation with a university or football team.

 

I respect your opinion, Joanne. We simply disagree on this issue.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Crissy

[Joanne]

Well, your argument may seem logical to you, but it is certainly not valid, in part because it implies that being a fan somehow equals support for immoral behavior.

 

The existence of fans is why there is money involved. The existence of fans is what keeps the sports (college and professional) going. Without the fans, the system ceases to exist.

 

The system has developed into a quagmire and culture that created the scenario in which Joe and others did what they did (or, more accurately, didn't do).

[Joanne]

We'll just have to disagree. I don't believe cronyism requires 'fuel' from any public entity or outside group. It exists among an assembly of people whether or not they have outside persuasion.

As I said elsewhere, I believe that if this particular group of men found themselves in the same situation but in a different profession, the results, unfortunately, would have been the same. The number of years they spent working closely together had more to do with their willingness to cover for each other than their affiliation with a university or football team.

 

I respect your opinion, Joanne. We simply disagree on this issue.

 

And I submit that the culture around sports (on PSU level, and even below) is part of the pattern and dynamic that created the conditions under which this happened. By "this", I don't mean the rape and assault. I mean the under-response, lack of reporting, and cover up.

 

What I can agree on is that the pedophile would have still been one; and would have found or, at minimum, sought ways to groom victims.

[Alte Veste Academy]

The existence of fans is why there is money involved. The existence of fans is what keeps the sports (college and professional) going. Without the fans, the system ceases to exist.

 

The system has developed into a quagmire and culture that created the scenario in which Joe and others did what they did (or, more accurately, didn't do).

 

Well, yeah. I wasn't arguing that point. I was taking issue with your use of the word culpable, which implies blame. You're blaming the fans for the illegal and immoral acts committed and then swept under the rug. If you don't see the faulty logic there, I don't know what to say to that. This is not a simple mathematical equation. There are hidden variables.

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, I'm sure that's what it was. And if it turns out that he was procuring for other big donors (perhaps donors to the school as well as to his charity), then this is just the beginning....

 

I'm wondering what on earth happened to the prosecutor to cause dismissal of the '98 case. I just don't see how it could have suddenly been marked as "unfounded" when a police officer easedropped with permission as the mother of the boy spoke with Sandusky and heard Sandusky admit his inappropriate behavior with him.... What I'm reading about that prosecutor doesn't indicate that he would have dropped such a case.... Perhaps his disappearance some years later is totally unrelated, but it does make one wonder....

[Teachin'Mine]

I think this and the existence of the 'good ol' boys network' is the reason for this sort of thing. It's about misplaced loyalty and self-preservation among those in power.

Suggesting that fans and alumni contribute to a culture of abuse is ridiculous. :glare:

 

A few weeks ago I would have agreed with you. But don't you think that the reaction of the fans is contributing to the problem now? Seriously, you have people shouting for a reversal on the coach's firing, coming from the fans, because of how much more important their game is than the people affected. It's pathetic. And it contributes to the culture of the game being the be all and end all and the players, and coaches, being above reproach as well as above the law.

[Crissy]

A few weeks ago I would have agreed with you. But don't you think that the reaction of the fans is contributing to the problem now? Seriously' date=' you have people shouting for a reversal on the coach's firing, coming from the fans, because of how much more important their game is than the people affected. It's pathetic. And it contributes to the culture of the game being the be all and end all and the players, and coaches, being above reproach as well as above the law.[/quote']

 

It is pathetic. It is disgusting. But it's not about the game.

Those are 2000 of 44000 students wishing to be part of a historical moment. Most of them haven't even read the Grand Jury Indictment. They are immature college kids. Where are the parents and alumni? At home.

Where are the now professional players that used to respect 'JoePa'? At home. Crying.

My husband has worked for a professional football team for 33 years. There are quite a few men we know who played for Joe Paterno. They are heartbroken. They are disgusted. They had no idea.

[pdalley]

He did better than that. He also reported it to the head of campus police, whose job it was to follow through with the off-campus police and upper admin, and who, unlike JoePa, knew about the earlier investigation. Sandusky, who was retired, did not work for Joe ny longer.

 

There is no indication that Joe got the detailed report we sickeningly read in the GJ report, nor is he trained to extract such from a distraught witness. He took the (possibly, we don't know yet) vague report from another person and directed it to the people who have that training.

 

The Vice-Chair of the board stated that they had no specific reason to fire him, they just wanted to be seen as taking "some" action (say what?). The board also admitted it operated without any facts.

 

You end the career of a distinguished educator and mentor, who has (possibly; some of us await actual facts before convicting people) only hindsight to guide him in wishing he had done more (who doesn't? This situation is incomprehensible in its horror) without facts, and for what you admit is no reason, and think this action will improve the situation?

 

I do not approve of violence or mob behavior, but am hardly surprised in an environment in which so many emotions run so high, and then the board of trustees bows to the media and exercises such poor judgement.

 

This is not about football. This is not about the house that JoePa built. It is about not compounding horror and unfathomable choices with further errors.

 

Try reading the article on PennLive about the sister of one of the victims, currently a Penn State student. She is where we should be focusing and supporting the efforts of the board. She specifically says she does not blame Joe-- so why do you? Because the media told you to, despite a lack of evidence or logical reason to do so. Because Joe, not victims, grab headlines. Shame on the board for not seeing this and remaining focused on those who are important in this situation!

 

For those who forgot the victims altogether in the joy of a good feeding frenzy and started making suggestions about shutting down the university or the football program, shame on you, too.

 

Penn State is an amazing university which runs a spectacular cooperative extension, supporting farmers and 4-H groups throughout the state. It provides a world-class education, including a top medical school, and is affiliated with a children's cancer center without which thousands of children would be dead. It's scholars program lures top students away from full scholarships at ivy-league schools (I should know-- I married one of them). Its faculty is top-flight. And let's discuss the football program, which has one of the top graduation records of any division I school, in real majors. Football players from PSU are now doctors, lawyers, soldiers, scientists, and more. Joe has benched players merely for skipping a single class-- first string marquee players scheduled to play. Oh, and don't forget the over $4 million he and SuePa donated to the library system alone.

 

Do not confuse my points!

 

None of the above make Joe innocent or untouchable! Those points show how silly it is to deride a world-class university, or its football program over the actions of Jerry Sandusky, a long-retired assistant coach. His actions are heinous. An investigation needs to be made about how this happened. I just fail to see how crucifying JoePa absent any facts, just because it makes great headlines, is the answer.

 

Many of you tsk tsk the students for thoughtlessly jumping on a bandwagon, writing them off as just kids, or not understanding because they aren't parents. Well, I'm no kid, and my sons are 8 and 10. I'm horrified at the bandwagon jumping here, that so many would celebrate the senseless ending of a career without facts or logic, and completely overlooking the fact that the media invented the entire furor over Joe because they didn't have any new stories about the victims for a bit!

 

Let's leave Joe alone-- the press has done enough damage-- and focus our energies on what the victims and their families must be going through now that they must relive all of this. I cannot imagine the horror. My heart breaks when I retread that PennLive interview with the sister.

 

 

There is no way on this earth I believe Joe did not know about the first investigation. None. He was this man's boss at the time and the incident occurred in the Football showers. No way I buy that. Joe is god on that campus. I'm sure he knew every move that was made. I've heard former players calling in saying Sandusky had a rep for being 'odd.' Sorry, I REFUSE to believe Joe didn't know.

 

Too much has come out for me to believe Joe did not know enough that he should have personally gone to the Police - the real police - not the campus police. Any decent moral human being has an obligation to make sure child molestation of any kind is thoroughly investigated. I refuse to give anyone who passed the buck and washed their hands a pass on this.

 

It's on Joe's hands too. He knew. He did not do enough. None of them did. Period. They should pay the price. They could have saved children. They thought their precious football program was more important and their own lousy reputations.

 

Sorry, I don't care how much good you've done if you can turn your head at pure evil. Doesn't wash with me.

[girligirlmom]

A student at Penn State who went to my highschool posted his perspective on the situation last night. Interesting to read this directly from someone who was there.

http://www.myveronanj.com/2011/11/10/penn-state-right-and-wrong-a-student-view/

 

Christina

[Annie G]

I read the indictment and was stunned to read that several law enforcement officers investigated various incidents and didn't really do anything. One did suggest that he stop showering with young boys. Really? That's the best they could do?

[Laurie4b]

I think *everyone* who knew and didn't call the Police should be tried for accessory for every child who was sexually vioated by this guy, including those that will be coming forth in the months to come as victims after it should have been reported.

 

I think that the culpability is larger than that, and is part of the sports culture. Those who participate, watch, and are fans, are part of the culture that created this problem. To have an alma-mater, to be a fan is fine but please don't do so thinking that the sports culture is healthy.

 

Are you saying that victims should be charged as accessories if they come forward because they did not report it before now? :confused: