Sex Survey - Why a Problem?

[athomemom]

I am not in favor of the survey. However, I am far more disturbed that a teen in today's western world wouldn't know these terms, what they meant and that OS can be a part of adult intimate expression.

 

I respectfully disagree. My 12/13 yo does NOT need to know what OS is. My children know the basics. What more do they need to know right now about sex? They are children and do not need to know about "adult intimate expression."

[athomemom]

Joanne,

 

Maybe that figures into why some of us homeschool. I really don't understand why a 13 year old NEEDS to know about OS. I really don't. Just because our culture is over sexualized doesn't mean we need to invite that culture into our lives. My kids are not terribly sheltered from pop culture like some hs'ers we know, but human sexuality really is not the overriding topic of conversation among even our most liberal hs-ing friends. (BTW, our homeschooling friends are mostly secular homeschoolers.) I like to think that our de-emphasis on sex in our homeschooling culture has freed our kids from the burden of oversexualization.

 

My older kids know what sex is and probably do know about most of the "options". But they are older than the target audience of the survey and need that knowledge. Other than their exposure to me teaching childbirth classes for 12 years, unfortunately much of that knowledge is not from conversations with us because they stopped asking me questions at around age 6 and dh is caught in the dark ages where nobody talks about it. Whenever I tried to bring it up, my boys would avoid me like the plague. I had to resort to leaving books all around the house.

 

My youngest doesn't know the mechanics yet, but we will be tackling that this year or the next. We have had discussions about puberty and how babies are born (my childbirth educator experience) but has not asked how they get there yet. She is much more open to with me about stuff so these conversations are happening much more naturally.

 

As to the OP, I guess I am fairly disturbed at the survey - mostly that it was given without parental approval. Part of the problem with even asking those questions is that it tends to normalize behavior that really is not age appropriate. I get that, in some areas, these things ARE happening, but this is not the case everywhere.

 

:iagree:

[Mommy22alyns]

Believe it or not, there are still plenty of 7th graders who don't know what some of those terms mean. I was once of them. And if one of my lovely, innocent daughters got subjected to a survey like that in 7th grade, I would be LIVID. Just because you think "most kids" have heard of this or thta, doesn't excuse the school giving out a test that graphic without explicit parental permission.

[whitestavern]

:iagree:Plus, it was done for grant money. What else are they willing to pimp kids out for in search of the almighty dollar?

 

Yes, this.

[Joanne]

Believe it or not, there are still plenty of 7th graders who don't know what some of those terms mean. I was once of them. And if one of my lovely, innocent daughters got subjected to a survey like that in 7th grade, I would be LIVID. Just because you think "most kids" have heard of this or thta, doesn't excuse the school giving out a test that graphic without explicit parental permission.

 

Let me repeat what I wrote: I am not in favor of the survey.

 

I don't equate "innocence" with lack of sexual knowledge and I don't elevate such innocence to a desired status. I think it's kind of creepy.

 

It is perfectly possible for a child to know the basics of human sexuality and not be sexually active. It's possible to know the mechanics of procreation, know what oral sex is, the terms to describe it and not be hyperfocused on sex.

 

I've got a "lovely, innocent" 9th grade daughter. :001_huh: I would not want a school giving the survey, but I'm not going to freak about the words and content because my children know them.

[Wabi Sabi]

I would have no problem at all answering such a survey nor would I mind if my child participated. As previous posters have already mentioned, the information and statistics gathered from such studies are really quite helpful.

 

Then again, I'd fill out the long Census form happily (again, something about information and statistics being pretty handy for my community.) I'm not a particularly private person (wanna know anything? :tongue_smilie:) and I don't see it government intrusion at all. Heck, I've even allowed my preschool aged children to participate in psychological studies at the local state university. I have trust in the process by which these kind of studies are approved and administered.

[kalanamak]

Maybe this is really naive, but I don't know why that would be a problem.

 

 

I can't help you because it wouldn't bother me either. At that age, I might have made up outrageous answers. When I was in med school, they did a survey like that to teach us statistics. There were people at THAT age making outrageous comments. What would a 13 year old do?:lol:

 

When I was in junior high, a popular joke having to do with a young, naive woman and a "French" husband, and the punch line was, "What is the matter with your mother? Doesn't she ever want us to have kids?" and the infamous one where everyone on the bus turns and looks at you and says "Don't worry, we won't hurt you". This was small town Kansas in the 70s. I can only imagine now!

[EKS]

I am a raving liberal, but I would have a huge problem with this.

 

Things like this, which present something like oral sex as simply one of several choices a middle schooler could make, give the impression that it's all ok.

 

The schools should stick to schooling. I have no problem with explicit health classes, BTW.

Edited June 17, 2011 by EKS

[Parrothead]

 

Your title says you are concerned about precedent. As several posters have noted the precedent was set years ago. The first survey I did like this was over 30 years ago.

 

I think a lot of people forgot they filled these things out and then are surprised when they learn their kid had one. Really, if their child took such a survey and mentioned it to them, they should be grateful--not for the school or government handing out such surveys, but because their child is willing to mention such topics to them. I think the last "private" discussion I had with my mom was in preschool about proper wiping--we never talked about menses.

 

Anyone who thinks 12 yo's don't hear about the stuff on these surveys is crazy. Even homeschoolers. You'd have to be real isolated to sure your child could never hear about this stuff. You don't know what they talk about at soccer, swim team, or hanging out on the playground at co op. Some kids heard stuff somewhere and they talk to other kids. That's just the way it is. As a parent it's important to educate early and with your spiritual perspective--you want to have the first imprint. And the fact that you talk about it makes it easier for your kids to talk about it later. And if your dc learn about various things before you say anything, you probably missed the opportunity to have the greatest influence.

The thing is, when I was in school filling out the survey I was a junior in high school. Not a 7th grader.

:iagree:

I do think that given the society we live in, teens need to know about sex, including OS. But asking 12 year olds to fill in a graphic survey is completely different, IMO.

I also can't help thinking about if I'd been asked to fill out the survey when I was in grade 7. Having been accelerated a couple grades, I would have been 10 years old at the time. I definitely did not know about OS. I realise that this probably isn't the situation of any of the kids who took part in the survey, but it could be and it's just one more reason I find the whole thing disturbing.

My rising 7th grader is only 11. :iagree:

I respectfully disagree. My 12/13 yo does NOT need to know what OS is. My children know the basics. What more do they need to know right now about sex? They are children and do not need to know about "adult intimate expression."

:iagree:

Let me repeat what I wrote: I am not in favor of the survey.

 

I don't equate "innocence" with lack of sexual knowledge and I don't elevate such innocence to a desired status. I think it's kind of creepy.

 

It is perfectly possible for a child to know the basics of human sexuality and not be sexually active. It's possible to know the mechanics of procreation, know what oral sex is, the terms to describe it and not be hyperfocused on sex.

 

I've got a "lovely, innocent" 9th grade daughter. :001_huh: I would not want a school giving the survey, but I'm not going to freak about the words and content because my children know them.

Yes, it is possible but unfortunately it is a rarity. As a society in general we are already hyperfocused on sex.

 

I can't help you because it wouldn't bother me either. At that age, I might have made up outrageous answers. When I was in med school, they did a survey like that to teach us statistics. There were people at THAT age making outrageous comments. What would a 13 year old do?:lol:

 

When I was in junior high, a popular joke having to do with a young, naive woman and a "French" husband, and the punch line was, "What is the matter with your mother? Doesn't she ever want us to have kids?" and the infamous one where everyone on the bus turns and looks at you and says "Don't worry, we won't hurt you". This was small town Kansas in the 70s. I can only imagine now!

I wondered about the kids pranking the test/survey. It is all too easy to answer that one has OS six times a week while boozing it up, and be totally lying.

 

Personally, I've not heard either of your jokes and have no idea what the punch lines of either are.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Parrothead

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I had not heard of oral sex at that age, and went to public school. I was not all that sheltered either. And I'm in my 20s, so it wasn't terribly long ago.

 

 

:iagree: This is me as well. I don't think it's wrong to try to keep your child innocent for as long as possible, and asking these questions does seem to imply that the child knows what it is and thinks it's going on with classmates.

[Joanne]

Yes, it is possible but unfortunately it is a rarity. As a society in general we are already hyperfocused on sex.

 

 

.

 

I disagree. There exists a large percentage of conservatives, many homeschoolers, who are just as focused on sex - it takes the form of forbidden, hidden, scandal, porn, gossip.

 

I actually don't think the majority of kids *are* focused on sex, and certainly not the schools. They mostly go about teaching math, reading, history.

 

This survey probably took a total of 10 minutes during "advisory".

[Parrothead]

I disagree. There exists a large percentage of conservatives, many homeschoolers, who are just as focused on sex - it takes the form of forbidden, hidden, scandal, porn, gossip.

 

I actually don't think the majority of kids *are* focused on sex, and certainly not the schools. They mostly go about teaching math, reading, history.

 

This survey probably took a total of 10 minutes during "advisory".

I know I (we if I include my friends at the time) had no idea other than the very basics about sex when we were in 7th/8th grade. But by high school pretty much everyone was focused on sex in one form or another. Who was having it and with whom and when and where and when would it occur again. Sex and grades turned into sex and money when I got out of school. Really this didn't change until I hit about 35.

[6packofun]

Guess what? There are ALWAYS going to be kids having sex, doing sexual things, drugs, etc. Do the statistics vary SO widely from year to year that they need to do surveys? If it's about finding "communities in crisis" or locating areas where this is more prevalent, I think there are pretty good indicators; communities and schools are NOT unaware. Have the stinking programs regardless, in areas that need them, because kids are worth it. Period.

[6packofun]

It is perfectly possible for a child to know the basics of human sexuality and not be sexually active. It's possible to know the mechanics of procreation, know what oral sex is, the terms to describe it and not be hyperfocused on sex.

 

I think that many of us don't believe that the "basics of human sexuality" actually includes nuances and techniques BEYOND the mechanics of procreation. It doesn't make us creepy to believe that lack of knowledge in those things DOES equate to some level of innocence and feel that that's desireable.

 

At what point is it "right" to share info about specifics beyond the mechanics? What if a teen wants to guard their minds and doesn't WANT information beyond the basics until THEY feel ready? Creepy kid? Who decides when it's creepy for being shared too early and creepy if shared too late? I'd love to see the non-creepy breakdown.

[Danestress]

You are misunderstanding what "precedent" I am concerned about.

 

I am aware that these surveys have been used for years. But I object to schools providing "access" to kids for surveys of all sorts. I am not that concerned about my kids knowing about s@x. I am very concerned about wasting time in school for surveys about s@x, buying habits, response to ads, movie preferences, or anything else.

 

I don't care if the information is useful to someone. My kids' time is useful to them, and if someone wants to use them for research/marketing etc, they can pay them by the hour. I'm sure that there is good information to be gained, and the same would be true about surveys on eating habits, health, exercise, etc. Not interested in having my kids participate. I myself also refuse to participate in any of the many calls I get at home asking me to complete a "short survey." Yeah right. I will help with your marketing when you pay me, lol.

[Snickerdoodle]

YBut I object to schools providing "access" to kids for surveys of all sorts.

 

Imagine getting a survey like that at your place of employment.

[Joanne]

I think that many of us don't believe that the "basics of human sexuality" actually includes nuances and techniques BEYOND the mechanics of procreation. It doesn't make us creepy to believe that lack of knowledge in those things DOES equate to some level of innocence and feel that that's desireable.

 

At what point is it "right" to share info about specifics beyond the mechanics? What if a teen wants to guard their minds and doesn't WANT information beyond the basics until THEY feel ready? Creepy kid? Who decides when it's creepy for being shared too early and creepy if shared too late? I'd love to see the non-creepy breakdown.

 

I can't support "guarding their minds" used in this way. I can support wise choices about sexual activity.

 

But teens in a western culture in 2011 should know that oral sex happens, what it is, and that it is sex.

[Janie Grace]

Interestingly, one of th questions - do you ever drink alone - has stuck in my head for the past 25 years. As an adult, I am completely paranoid about pouring myself a glass of wine unless I'm socializing. :001_huh:

 

Me too!!! That is so funny.

[Sputterduck]

 

Your title says you are concerned about precedent. As several posters have noted the precedent was set years ago. The first survey I did like this was over 30 years ago.

 

I think a lot of people forgot they filled these things out and then are surprised when they learn their kid had one. Really, if their child took such a survey and mentioned it to them, they should be grateful--not for the school or government handing out such surveys, but because their child is willing to mention such topics to them. I think the last "private" discussion I had with my mom was in preschool about proper wiping--we never talked about menses.

 

Anyone who thinks 12 yo's don't hear about the stuff on these surveys is crazy. Even homeschoolers. You'd have to be real isolated to sure your child could never hear about this stuff. You don't know what they talk about at soccer, swim team, or hanging out on the playground at co op. Some kids heard stuff somewhere and they talk to other kids. That's just the way it is. As a parent it's important to educate early and with your spiritual perspective--you want to have the first imprint. And the fact that you talk about it makes it easier for your kids to talk about it later. And if your dc learn about various things before you say anything, you probably missed the opportunity to have the greatest influence.

 

I didn't know about those things at 12 and my friend and I did not talk about that stuff. We didn't even talk about that stuff in high school. You experience and that of your children doesn't dictate everyone's.

[lovemyboys]

*I* wouldn't answer those questions. Why should my child?

 

If I remember correctly, we had a similar survey sort of thing in 10th grade.

 

The truth? Everyone lied.

 

The kids who hadn't done much of anything, admitted to a bit so they wouldn't feel weird, the kids who had done things, either added more (mostly the guys) or subtracted a bunch so people wouldn't know. It was a joke.

 

It might be anonymous but it gets people talking and comparing notes.

 

Dc are just shy of this age range. No way would I want them having this kind of survey. No doubt some kids will be unaware of some of the acts, etc., described so this just puts images in their heads. We can't "acquaint" kids with sexual information and then be horrified when they're oversexualized at younger and younger ages.

 

ok [/rant] This stuff just makes me sad for the children involved. I would be very suspicious of any real benefit it's supposed to bring.

[QueenCat]

Your title says you are concerned about precedent. As several posters have noted the precedent was set years ago. The first survey I did like this was over 30 years ago.

 

 

 

I remember taking it in 8th grade for the first time. That would have been 1978.

[OnTheBrink]

Maybe I'm just old, but I was never given such a survey in jr high or high school.

[goldberry]

According to this http://www.rutherford.org/pdf/2011/04-28-2011_Letter_Fitchburg-School-Survey.pdf , the daughters of the woman who has filed the complaint protested taking the test and were told to sit down and take it. One daughter pointed out that it was voluntary and tried to be excused and the teacher wouldn't allow it.

 

Now that, I agree, is absolutely out of line and I would be up in somebody's face about it as well.

 

I'm still rather surprised though, how many here would be against such a survey in general principle. But hey, that's why I post here...I really am curious about other people's brains....maybe I should give a survey! ;)

[Lizzie in Ma]

:iagree:Plus, it was done for grant money. What else are they willing to pimp kids out for in search of the almighty dollar?

 

:iagree::iagree:

[twoforjoy]

Maybe I'm just old, but I was never given such a survey in jr high or high school.

 

I'm not sure how old you are, but if you are younger than your 50s, there's a good chance that surveys like this were given while you were in school, just not in your school.

 

Obviously every schoolchild in the country isn't being surveyed, because that's not how survey research works. They're not taking a census, but looking for a representative sample. So, the vast majority of schools will not be participating in this survey.

 

I was never given a survey like this, either. But, back when I was a teenager in the 90s, they were collecting this sort of data.

 

I'm just at a loss for why people think this information is so useless. When we're going to have public policy debates over, say, whether sex ed should be taught in school, and what kind, and people make claims like "If we teach sex ed, more kids will have sex," isn't it useful to find out whether or not that's true? If we're going to see teen pregnancy as a social problem, shouldn't we have the facts on how many teens are actually having sex, and whether they are using birth control or not? If we're going to make the sex lives of teens a matter of public interest, and something we think is our business--and when people here say that part of the reason that they don't send their kids to ps is because of how much sex the kids there are supposedly having, they ARE making it a matter of public interest--then wouldn't we want accurate data to go on?

 

If we want to say, "The sex lives of teens are nobody's business," then fine. But if we want to make the sex lives of teens our business, but then just go on anecdotes and our own sense that today's teens must be much more promiscuous than teens back when we were growing up (which these statistics proves to be completely false), that is not right. If we're going to make the sex lives of teens our business, then we owe it to them to get our facts straight, and this is the only way I know of to do it.

 

Honestly, part of me wonders if the reason we're so suspicious of this research is because it proves our biases wrong. Today's teens are having less, not more, sex than teens a generation or two ago. Maybe we just don't want to hear that, and would rather rely on news reports about "rainbow parties" and Lifetime TV movies to get our information about what the sex lives of teens are like, so we can make sure we don't have to question our assumption that today's teens are the most immoral, hedonistic generation yet.

Edited June 17, 2011 by twoforjoy

[In The Great White North]

I'm just at a loss for why people think this information is so useless.

 

Because it doesn't tell us anything we don't already know:

 

-some teens have sex

-some teens lie about having sex

-some kids use drugs, cigarettes and alcohol

-some kids lie about using drugs, cigarettes and alcohol

-since we don't know who is lying and who isn't, the specific numbers are unreliable

 

We already knew that.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I think that there is a difference between saying that you think giving students the survey without giving parents either an opt in or a heads up is innappropriate and saying that you think your kids are completely unexposed to all of the terms on the survey.

 

I know that my kids have been exposed to locker room talk on team bus trips or scouting outings. That doesn't mean that they really understand the details of all of the terms. Nor does it mean that I appreciate a survey that might imply that all of the variations are equally appropriate (or appropriate at their age at all). I'm honestly occasionally charmed by the fact that my kids think "drat" is a good interjection or that my 13 yo thought that in the new card game he'd learned the name BS stood for Boy Scouts (because he'd learned it at a campout).

 

One of the issues I have is that young students don't necessarily understand that they have a freedom not to answer questions like this. To say, "That's private." And I think that we are potentially sending a mixed signal to say that students have a right to privacy (same sex chaparone for medical exams, the right to say no to someone touching them) but then to imply that the most intimate details of their private life need to be reported to unknown entities via a scantron sheet.

 

There is a difference between thinking something is inappropriate and being naive about the world. (Whatever happened to the word "sorrid" anyway?)

[Mommy22alyns]

I think that many of us don't believe that the "basics of human sexuality" actually includes nuances and techniques BEYOND the mechanics of procreation. It doesn't make us creepy to believe that lack of knowledge in those things DOES equate to some level of innocence and feel that that's desireable.

 

At what point is it "right" to share info about specifics beyond the mechanics? What if a teen wants to guard their minds and doesn't WANT information beyond the basics until THEY feel ready? Creepy kid? Who decides when it's creepy for being shared too early and creepy if shared too late? I'd love to see the non-creepy breakdown.

 

 

Exactly. What, do you want to give our 7th graders the Kama Sutra or something? There's a VAST difference between s*x education and teaching them technique.

[Night Elf]

Your title says you are concerned about precedent. As several posters have noted the precedent was set years ago. The first survey I did like this was over 30 years ago.

 

I graduated high school 25 years ago, which means I was in 8th grade 30 years ago. I never filled out any kind of survey like that. I am positive I would remember that. I do remember the school taking all of us 7th grade girls into the lunchroom for a talk about periods. They gathered parent-signed permission slips at the door, or you couldn't go in.

 

Gosh, I can still recall the mortification I felt when I had to go to the school nurse and ask for a feminine pad! I was so embarrassed that I never let that happen again. I carried something with me every single day for just in case. :tongue_smilie: Maybe I didn't live in an area that was used to gather such statistics?

[NanceXToo]

Not only are the questions wildly inapropriate, it is none of the school business.:eek:

 

Yep. Those are highly personal, highly private, highly inappropriate questions to ask ANYBODY. It is certainly no business or right of the school's to be asking them of anyone, much less a minor child, IMHO.

 

I don't care if my kids already know all the terms, if they've already experienced all of the terms via personal experience, or if they've never heard of them in their lives... no school needs to inquire about anyone's sex life- mine, my child's, anybody's. How intrusive!

[elizabeth]

 

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123789&page=1 This is why the survey is important and why kids this age need education to avoid STD's and pregnancy. O*al sex is seen as not having sex thus they are engaging in it and spreading Genital warts via oral-genital contact. I think schools have to do this as most parents are all too happy to avoid raising their children in part by educating them about these matters. I see parents every day in our law office and none of them have a clue what their children are doing, who they are spending time with,whther they are learning nor do they care. Truly it is sad to see but true. The pressure is out there and no one has given these young people any tools to combat the messages of no consequences.

[Sputterduck]

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123789&page=1 This is why the survey is important and why kids this age need education to avoid STD's and pregnancy. O*al sex is seen as not having sex thus they are engaging in it and spreading Genital warts via oral-genital contact. I think schools have to do this as most parents are all too happy to avoid raising their children in part by educating them about these matters. I see parents every day in our law office and none of them have a clue what their children are doing, who they are spending time with,whther they are learning nor do they care. Truly it is sad to see but true. The pressure is out there and no one has given these young people any tools to combat the messages of no consequences.

 

We don't need surveys to know that. And many parents who *are* parenting their kids are not okay with this. You can't do something with my kid just because someone else is not parenting their own kid.

[elizabeth]

We don't need surveys to know that. And many parents who *are* parenting their kids are not okay with this. You can't do something with my kid just because someone else is not parenting their own kid.

I think there should have been permission slips to take the survey, the fact that there were not is troubling . I am simply pointing out that there is a real need for education about these matters and in many, many cases that is the school. They do a shoddy job compared to a caring parent or guardian but the bare minimum is better than no education at all and having STD's, some of them deadly,spread through out a community.

[AK_Mom4]

Not only are the questions wildly inapropriate, it is none of the school business.:eek:

 

:iagree:

 

It is not the business of the school to know about my 7th/8th grader's sex life. Really - it's an invasion of privacy, even though the school certainly will rationalize that it's important information.

[Sputterduck]

I think there should have been permission slips to take the survey, the fact that there were not is troubling . I am simply pointing out that there is a real need for education about these matters and in many, many cases that is the school. They do a shoddy job compared to a caring parent or guardian but the bare minimum is better than no education at all and having STD's, some of them deadly,spread through out a community.

 

I agree that something is better than nothing. I don't think the survey adds anything though. We already know that some parents suck and that lots of kids are doing things they don't understand.

[astrid]

Exactly. What, do you want to give our 7th graders the Kama Sutra or something? There's a VAST difference between s*x education and teaching them technique.

 

Wow. That's quite a leap. Why the topic of SEX makes so many here so angry and defensive is beyond me. The snark is really unnecessary, IMHO.

 

astrid (mother of a "lovely, innocent" 14 year old daughter who is aware of what sex is, what it means, and most importantly the DANGERS that are involved. Yet contrary to what you seem to believe about children who know the facts of life, no less sweet, kind and innocent than YOUR daughter, I'm sure.)

[mom2scouts]

The schools are whining that they don't have time to teach math and reading, but they have time to survey very young teens about their sex life? It's not appropriate, not their job and none of their business.

[annandatje]

Honestly, part of me wonders if the reason we're so suspicious of this research is because it proves our biases wrong. Today's teens are having less, not more, sex than teens a generation or two ago. Maybe we just don't want to hear that, and would rather rely on news reports about "rainbow parties" and Lifetime TV movies to get our information about what the sex lives of teens are like, so we can make sure we don't have to question our assumption that today's teens are the most immoral, hedonistic generation yet.

 

:iagree:

[twoforjoy]

Because it doesn't tell us anything we don't already know:

 

 

If you read posts on here about what people think about the sex lives of teens today compared to the sex lives of teens when they were younger, we most certainly do NOT know what these surveys are telling us. There is an almost universal assumption among adults that today's teens are having more sex, and at younger ages, than previous generations. That is simply flat-out wrong, and the only way we know it's wrong--because we can't ask every teen, and many of us base our opinions on extreme anecdotes, sensationalized news stories, and maybe our own sense of moral superiority over this generation of young people--is because of research like this.