I was just told by a math teacher

[Hunter's Moon]

Ha.

 

Group math work at public school involves the motivated, determined kids pushing the uncaring kids to do their part of the work so the motivated, determined child doesn't have to do all the work alone.

 

My experience anyways.

:lol:

[Snickerdoodle]

Because engineers are known for their social skills? Really?

 

:lol:

 

I can't wait for my hubby to come home so we can laugh about it.

[Kirch]

She was explicitly referring to Everyday Math.

 

'Cause, you know, no one was EVER successful before EM came along. :001_rolleyes:

[Surfside Academy]

They used to call group math "cheating" when I was in public school. My how the times have changed! :D

[Belacqua]

They used to call group math "cheating" when I was in public school. My how the times have changed! :D

 

No kidding! If we'd had group math when I was in high school, perhaps pre-calc might not have kicked my behind quite so hard. I still might not know how to do pre-calc, but my GPA would have been far prettier.

[Homemama2]

They used to call group math "cheating" when I was in public school. My how the times have changed! :D

 

 

:lol:

[oldskool]

She was explicitly referring to Everyday Math.

 

:rofl:

 

 

Lesley

[gpsings]

Cute. :lol:

I wonder if she's speaking from personal experience. :rolleyes:

[Hunter's Moon]

It was much easier just to do the work alone! I didn't care about motivating them, just getting them out of my way. Group Projects are actually pretty high on my list of reasons to homeschool.

 

Yeah.

 

It was just easier to do all the work and then tell the teacher you did so all the others got zeros.

 

The teachers usually believed me because they purposely set me up with the bad kids so the kids would have a 'motivator'.

[joannqn]

I was always the smart kid who did all of the work until I found a know-it-all who took charge and refused to accept any input from the rest of us. The only problem was she didn't know anything and got us all a poor grade. Grrr.

 

Group math...whatever.

[idnib]

Hmmm...maybe this is my chance to ask about Everyday Math.

 

We do Singapore and we love it, and I've never seen Everyday Math or even heard of it except on WTM. There is an assumption on on WTM forums that everyone knows what Everyday Math is and why it's so terrible.

 

Can someone fill me in? What makes it so bad? (I want to be able to catch on with threads like this!) :D

[lionfamily1999]

that my son won't be able to function in a real math environment (ie a job) because he doesn't have group experience with math.

Well, once your son has counted all his fingers and toes, what will he do if the number is over twenty?!?

 

Sigh, yet another hsing fail. I let my kids count each others' digits as well.

 

 

 

:lol:

[fairfarmhand]

Hmmm...maybe this is my chance to ask about Everyday Math.

 

We do Singapore and we love it, and I've never seen Everyday Math or even heard of it except on WTM. There is an assumption on on WTM forums that everyone knows what Everyday Math is and why it's so terrible.

 

Can someone fill me in? What makes it so bad? (I want to be able to catch on with threads like this!) :D

 

 

yeah...what they said...I'm out of the loop too. Enlighten me.

[Snickerdoodle]

Well, once your son has counted all his fingers and toes, what will he do if the number is over twenty?!?

 

Sigh, yet another hsing fail. I let my kids count each others' digits as well.

 

 

 

:lol:

 

See, the homeschoolers with lots of siblings must be better at math.

 

Logic. Done for the day! :D

[lionfamily1999]

See, the homeschoolers with lots of siblings must be better at math.

 

Logic. Done for the day! :D

:smilielol5:

[Snickerdoodle]

Reviews of Everyday Math

[LG Gone Wild]

Reviews of Everyday Math

 

I've never seen EM so I went to EM's website. I didn't get far before I came upon a puzzling admission. The "How to get started" PDF warns that it would take 3 years to get comfortable with EM. That is rather discouraging. I have other things I'd rather be doing so I didn't read much beyond that. I only noticed that there seemed a lot of handwringing, handholding, and prep work recommended in the "getting started" document.

 

I am not against spiral methods (Horizons uses this). I don't even know what EM looks like as I was already bored and annoyed with the intro. There is a lot on ancient wisdom that we can't even begin to comprehend that was successfully passed on without such tediousness.

Edited September 28, 2010 by LG Gone Wild

[Snickerdoodle]

You can also read all the blog posts at KTM that are tagged with EM. The comments are often instructive.

[LG Gone Wild]

http://www.educationnews.org/commentaries/13361.html

 

A father's experience with EM. I thought it was hilarious and that we could all relate to shouting while teaching math.

[kalanamak]

group experience with math.

 

One of the most frustrating things I could imagine. Everyone shut up and let me THINK!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

that my son won't be able to function in a real math environment (ie a job) because he doesn't have group experience with math.

 

I'm always amused when I run into people who glorify the outcomes of group work. Sure there were college labs where I was working with a partner and we worked well together. But there were plenty of groups before college where I did most of the work, ended up explaining the lab to the rest of the group (ie, reteaching what they hadn't learned in class) or dealing with the contempt of my group partners because I wasn't a meek and quiet girl.

 

Of course it's important to learn how to work in a give and take environment with others. But I'm not convinced that is an intrinsic part of learning math, nor that the skills learned in other group experiences won't translate to a math oriented work environment or that a group of disinterested peers is really the place to learn or practice these skills.

 

Why do people always assume that group work has all these great benefits. I just don't see it in most cases. [And I have to confess that I'm remembering the mathmetician who was on my ship in the Navy. He already had his MS and was going back to do his PhD, but wanted some real world experience. He was the most stereotypically socially awkward, clueless brilliant person I've met. He could play a dozen chess games at a time and then need to ask directions to his workspace. Maybe he needed more groupwork in school.(sarcasm)]

 

On the other hand, you could tell him that you do think groupwork among talented and involved students is important. So why doesn't he write a letter to Math Counts supporting team participation by homeschoolers.

[CAMom]

They used to call group math "cheating" when I was in public school. My how the times have changed! :D

 

:smilielol5:

[juelle]

EM led eventually to dd coming home for school! Yay!!! But she still hasn't become confident in computation. She's in 8th gd :glare:

[Pippen]

One of the most frustrating things I could imagine. Everyone shut up and let me THINK!

 

One of the latests in reading in our district is to break the class down into TEN levels instead of the traditional three. When I was a volunteer I was leading one group while three others were doing other activities in the commons. I could hardly keep my mind on the task and I wasn't a student struggling with reading and/or attention issues.

[EKS]

I used math (mostly statistics) extensively in my job. I never once ever did that math with another person.

 

That comment shows just how much this teacher doesn't know about "real" math environments.

[runmiarun]

When I was in school, "group math experience" was considered cheating. But that was the 70's and 80's ;p. Things are probably different now.

[Hunter's Moon]

When I was in school, "group math experience" was considered cheating. But that was the 70's and 80's ;p. Things are probably different now.

 

It is now a way for kids who don't normally do work to get a good grade for once because the good kid does it all so they don't get in trouble.

 

So, I suppose it is still cheating, just the teachers encourage it and turn their backs.

[Margo out of lurking]

that my son won't be able to function in a real math environment (ie a job) because he doesn't have group experience with math.

 

Probably not. He'll be the boss of these people--but only if they eventually figure math out independently.

[Spy Car]

I haven't used--nor will I attempt to defend Everyday Math--however I have seen films on how the Japanese math programs use group activities to help problem-solve, and how deeply these group exercises are ingrained into the highly successful Japanese educational system.

 

I'd be slow to make a blanket condemnation of group math activities because they seem to have promise if well designed.

 

Bill

Edited September 29, 2010 by Spy Car

[kitten18]

Not entirely off topic:

 

I have a friend who is a public high school math teacher. She said her classroom theme for the year is: "Social Justice."

 

No kidding.

 

This was imposed on her, not her choice. She would have chosen something that mentioned working hard, attention to detail, or something about MATH perhaps!

I did laugh :lol: when I first read that but then I was :001_huh:, just speechless at the stupidity.

 

I'm not entirely surprised though because I taught middle school and high school and I've seen the craziness that comes down from the "experts".

[Snickerdoodle]

I'd be slow to make a blanket condemnation of group math activities because well they seem to mauve promise if well designed.

 

Bill

 

I think the real issue here, Bill, is that you'd probably be even SLOWER to say that someone else's child would not be able to function in the "real world" in front of said child especially if you had *just* met them.

[Teachin'Mine]

He said this IN FRONT of your son???? :ohmy::svengo:

[Dandelion]

that my son won't be able to function in a real math environment (ie a job) because he doesn't have group experience with math.

 

In my 20 years in corporate America (using lots of math, drafting and balancing budgets, P&L statements, doing financial cost/benefit analyses, etc.) I NEVER ONCE had the need or occasion to do "group math".

 

I haven't read the other replies, so perhaps you already shared how you responded to this teacher... If someone said this to me, I'd probably bust out laughing with "That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! Good one. Thanks for the laugh!" :D

[idnib]

Thanks to all who sent the Everyday Math posts. I spent a bunch of time today reading about a form of math education we'll never use.:tongue_smilie:

 

But it was instructive, plus I found out it's the math program being used in our school district, so I'm even happier to be homeschooling now.

[Spy Car]

I think the real issue here, Bill, is that you'd probably be even SLOWER to say that someone else's child would not be able to function in the "real world" in front of said child especially if you had *just* met them.

 

Tis so. I'd be frosted to hear such a comment. It sounds presumptuous (and bone-headed) to say the least.

 

But I'd still be loathe to suggest that all group problem solving exercise are worthless because some teacher made a stupid comment.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

Tis so. I'd be frosted to hear such a comment. It sounds presumptuous (and bone-headed) to say the least.

 

But I'd still be loathe to suggest that all group problem solving exercise are worthless because some teacher made a stupid comment.

 

Bill

 

 

Bill, we are homeschoolers. The question isn't whether such activities are worthless, but are they necessary? Furthermore, how well are such techniques applied in public school classrooms?

[Spy Car]

Bill, we are homeschoolers. The question isn't whether such activities are worthless, but are they necessary? Furthermore, how well are such techniques applied in public school classrooms?

 

Last question first. Most likely methinks group group projects are often implemented poorly. It takes imagination to implement group projects that truly inspire collective input and cooperation. But it can be done. And when it is done well it seems to be a very highly effective learning thechique.

 

Just his evening I heard from a teacher at my son's school (a man who with his wife home-schools his children) and he was taking about the value of the group problem solving activities his school children were involved in and the merit he found in well designed activities.

 

Interestingly, he first sets up a timed challenge where the time is too short and the groups are too large, anticipating the groups will fail. Then failure leads to student participation in analyzing why the group failed, and what they could do to create situations where grips could work successfully.

 

His point (unprompted my me) was that people need to know how to function inside a group because it is a skill they'll need the rest of their lives. And I think there is wisdom in his approach.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

But there are all sorts of groups-families, scouting troops, co-op classes, honor society groups, etc. Was this teacher correct? Is it necessary for a child to learn such skills in a classroom? Obviously, the majority of us believe it is not. If we did believe that, we probably would not be homeschooling.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Oh my.... I might have burst out with amused cursing.

 

I have no problem with my kids learning to function in a group dynamic. My problem with my kids' PS math projects are that they 1) are usually pretty light on math 2) my kid usually does the whole project and the others skate along for the A. Examples of my PS kids math projects~pretend you are traveling, make a budget, convert your $$ to foreign currency, price out your expenses, and always...make a poster (ack!) Art work is considered in the grade.

[creekland]

Last question first. Most likely methinks group group projects are often implemented poorly. It takes imagination to implement group projects that truly inspire collective input and cooperation. But it can be done. And when it is done well it seems to be a very highly effective learning thechique.

 

Just his evening I heard from a teacher at my son's school (a man who with his wife home-schools his children) and he was taking about the value of the group problem solving activities his school children were involved in and the merit he found in well designed activities.

 

Interestingly, he first sets up a timed challenge where the time is too short and the groups are too large, anticipating the groups will fail. Then failure leads to student participation in analyzing why the group failed, and what they could do to create situations where grips could work successfully.

 

His point (unprompted my me) was that people need to know how to function inside a group because it is a skill they'll need the rest of their lives. And I think there is wisdom in his approach.

 

Bill

 

But this is nothing like group math. This is merely learning how to function in a group - divide and conquer. In a group setting, this assumes people KNOW how to do the math or that certain people with certain expertise choose their aspect of the problem to conquer (brainstorming with others, of course). This can be learned in a variety of places and is best learned after puberty due to the level of thinking needed (though, with help, it could be started earlier).

 

Group math also has everyone working on a problem and everyone is SUPPOSED to contribute their thoughts and the solution. In reality, this just doesn't happen. People are generally lazy by nature. Those that know the stuff don't care to put time in helping the others - especially since the others don't really want to learn. They prefer to just copy.

 

So, group behavior is learned - the wrong way.

 

I'm fully convinced it's better for all to learn the math first. Then, if one wants to teach group problem solving, fine, but not to TEACH the math. I've just seen it in action way too much.

 

Everyday math then decides to rely on the calculator far too much - and really confusing ways to sort of learn the math. Our school district was really hoping to see a chance when those using the math came up to the high school. It didn't happen. However scores have gone up 10% this year. What did they do differently? They bought a program that goes over true skills INDIVIDUALLY on the computer (Study Island). THAT program is worth its weight in gold IMO. It has brought up our lower level math kids and helped the skills of those who are higher level too.

 

If schools would go back to individual math - perhaps using newer programs like Study Island to keep kids interested (since they need so much entertaining nowadays), math scores across the board would increase. THEN teach group problems if they want to, but they are then teaching GROUP work, not math.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

But there are all sorts of groups-families, scouting troops, co-op classes, honor society groups, etc. Was this teacher correct? Is it necessary for a child to learn such skills in a classroom? Obviously, the majority of us believe it is not. If we did believe that, we probably would not be homeschooling.

 

:iagree: I can see the value of group projects on maybe less than 10% of school time if that IMHO. The times we did a group project in school in college, I was actually the producer and the others were not. I think there is too much risk that many students will not be able to master the content or how-to when done in groups. Students need to develop individual competence in subject areas IMO which is often sorely lacking IMO. I think sports, clubs, etc. can facilitate group learning without compromising individual learning.

[FaithManor]

It is not wise to read such a post while sipping hot coffee!

 

This is what I learned about "group" projects in school. A. Teachers will always give one bright child four lazy individuals to work with. B. The lazy individuals quickly realize in the "herd" education mentality of PS that they do not actually have to do any work...just feed off the bright leader's work. C. My work will be copied. D. Short of physical assault by someone bigger than them, this "group" will do nothing. E. Since I care about my grades, I will do A work and they will get an A by association. F. The teacher will know they did nothing and give them the A anyway. Any complaint to the teacher results in a lecture to me about taking leadership and inspiring my team. "REALLY, CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, BUT AREN'T YOU THE ONE DRAWING A PAYCHECK FOR THAT VERY THING! I'M ONLY A FIFTH GRADER!!" Yeah, I got sent to the principal's office for that one. My parents were not amused and the principal and teacher took a rather intense verbal beating from my dad.

 

As for learning group/team work, this was accomplished quite well for me in band, choir, and orchestra....an environment in which the lazy are well known and do not get A's because they never bothered to learn the instrument or their part in the music. But, if the team does pull together and work hard, the outcome is smashing and quite fulfilling!

 

I taught DD to play the flute and the piano (she is accomplished at both and classically advanced at the piano) so we made sure she played in community band and sang with two different choirs. We also sought out accompanying jobs. It was all the "group think" she ever needed and just the right kind of experience. I think sports, if not so competitive that they are dangerous to the psyche and body, can accomplish the same goal.

 

For what it is worth, I think the only good outcome of most group academic experiences is that early on, a person can learn to "cope" with the non-worker. DH has a team of eight at work and he does nearly all the work, logging an average of 70 hours per week. The others are completely lazy and know they can get away with it. They are offshore workers with a contract firm. They get paid regardless of not doing anything of any substance and even brag about this fact in meetings. Meanwhile, Dh the American worker, would be fired by his IT company if he didn't make the group successful which means, doing all the work himself. So, yeah, those group projects in school came in handy as psychological preparation for the insanities of the modern working environment! Best not to start such preparations to young.

 

Faith

[Word Nerd]

That would have been an exercise in self-control.

 

My school teachers never made me do group math, and I don't recall ever doing math in a group in the work world.

Edited September 29, 2010 by WordGirl

[DawnM]

Another time you smile and say, "Interesting." And walk away and never speak of it again.

 

Seriously, why people feel it is their duty to let you know their opinion on everything is beyond me.

 

Two weeks ago we had to get our cars inspected. I had to wait in the waiting room with my 6 year old for our car. This crotchty old lady started in on my son, "Don't you have school today young man?" I responded with, "We homeschool." She retorted quite rudely, "Don't you need some sort of licence to do that?" I responded, "Yes, you need a high school diploma to homeschool your children." She went on and on about how that shouldn't be enough and how will I know if the kids are "on track" or not.

 

There was NO WAY in the world I was giving her the satisfaction of knowing that I not only had much more than a high school education, but that I was a licenced teacher with 16 years of experience teaching in the public schools! I just let her wallow in her stupidity as she, with a ps educations, made all sorts of grammatical errors in her spewing.

 

Dawn

[EKS]

I haven't used--nor will I attempt to defend Everyday Math--however I have seen films on how the Japanese math programs use group activities to help problem-solve, and how deeply these group exercises are ingrained into the highly successful Japanese educational system.

 

I'd be slow to make a blanket condemnation of group math activities because they seem to have promise if well designed.

 

Bill

 

Programs like Everyday Math and TERC Investigations were intentionally designed to be *like* Asian math programs. And the group work is part of the package.

 

I have no problem with group math activities, but I do have a problem with the idea that the real world works in groups all the time. In the real world where I worked (as a scientist mostly), there would be a group effort to achieve some common goal, but we were each working individually on a piece of it.

[nd293]

Yea, I often see workers in the "real world" sitting around figuring out math problems. Oh please....that is the silliest thing I've ever heard.

 

I don't know. You may be being too hasty. I had a young woman at the check-out try to work out what 10% of $110 was the other day, and I really think she would have benefited from a group approach. Maybe if you're a student of "new maths" you will need those other workers to help you solve problems. One worker only has so many fingers and toes. :glare:

 

Nikki

[Mejane]

When I think of team projects IRW, I see a group of individuals bringing together disparate ideas and viewpoints not necessarily to reach a consensus, but to encourage and identify new strategies.

 

This is quite different than "groupthink", which, ime, is what school projects (of any kind) were - a bunch of kids sitting around watching while one or two worked to find the "correct answer."

[sadiegirl]

:lol:

How many mathematicians does it take to solve a math problem?

 

I hear a joke coming.

 

LOL. Really?

[Tress]

I don't know. You may be being too hasty. I had a young woman at the check-out try to work out what 10% of $110 was the other day, and I really think she would have benefited from a group approach. Maybe if you're a student of "new maths" you will need those other workers to help you solve problems. One worker only has so many fingers and toes. :glare:

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[Spy Car]

But there are all sorts of groups-families, scouting troops, co-op classes, honor society groups, etc. Was this teacher correct?

 

Well the teacher was clearly obnoxious and presumptuous to assume that a home-schooled child might not have access to group activities generally or to group problem-solving activities in particular.

 

School classrooms are not the only venues where children can cooperate on groups to meet a goal.

 

 

Is it necessary for a child to learn such skills in a classroom? Obviously, the majority of us believe it is not. If we did believe that, we probably would not be homeschooling.

 

I don't believe it either. The point I'm getting at isn't wheter group problem solving is the exclusive providence of the classroom (it's not) it is whether such activities have value generally speaking if done in a manner that actually involves the children and encourages them to cooperate and work as teams--conditions I concede are not a "given" by any means with PS group projects.

 

It's just many posts seem to lampoon the very notion that group problem solving exercises have any value. And I think that is a very wrong notion.

 

Bill

Edited September 29, 2010 by Spy Car