What would you do?????

[Joyfullyblessed]

Hello,

 

I have a bit of a dilemma going on right now with my daughter, and I was hoping I could get a bit of advice from others on how to properly deal with this situation.

 

First off, my daughter just turned seventeen last week. She goes to a private Christian school and has been there since 6th grade. Before that she attended PS. She has never been homeschooled.

 

Anyway, my husband and I are having a VERY difficult time with her right now and things just seem to be getting worse. She listens to very horrible music with extremely explicit lyrics (yes, we delete them off her ipod when we discover them), she is hanging around with a group of friends who just aren't the best influence (even if they are all going to a private Christian school), and she is now lying on top of more lying all the time.

 

We also have a huge problem with rudeness, disrespect, and disobeying. She wants nothing to do with me, my husband, or her little brother. She can be downright mean and hurtful with the things she says and it does not even seem to bother her.

 

Recently, she got her license (in December). Well, we have found out that is telling us she is going one place, but yet goes somewhere else instead. One evening we spent nearly an hour trying to figure out where she was, and I was scared to death! She had just decided it was her right to go wherever she pleased with our vehicle. Needless to say, she was put on restriction.

 

While on restriction, she went behind our back again and did something else that she KNOWS she was not allowed to do, so more restriction was added. Well, she came off of that finally, was off for about five days and this past weekend continued to do things she is not allowed to do.

 

This past weekend she once again lied about where she was going to be (found out she went to some guys house to hang out). She also drove two other teenagers around when she is NOT allowed to have anyone in the car with her when she is driving right now(this is a state law). Plus, there were several other lies.

 

It is driving us CRAZY!!!!! She says that what she is doing is not wrong. So now we are looking into getting a good counselor for her. Hopefully, he/she can get through to her because obviously we can't. : (

 

Now, my BIG question is this.... due to all that we are dealing with concerning our daughter, there are several people saying that we should pull her from the private school and put her into the public high school. Now, I am very torn about this decision.

 

First, next year will be her senior year (big year). She has been at the school since 6th grade and does have her friends (yet I really dislike who she is hanging out with currently). Academically and with athletics, she is excelling. (however, I have seen her grades fluctuate up and down here recently)

 

Anyway, everyone says why should we continue to pay tuition for her to go to this school, hang out with a group of people who are a bad influence to her when she could go to a public school and do it for free??? They say this because I have said that it is not the school, it is our daughter making poor choices right now. I feel that if we pull her and send her to PS, she will just find another group of friends that would be the same as who she is hanging out with now. Not good.

 

I agree with "why should we continue to pay for this???", but I just can't get past the thought that next year will be her senior year and would it just devastate her to be pulled from school & put into another during that time.

 

Goodness, I am very sorry this is sooo long. I am hoping the counseling will help, but a decision has to be made fairly quickly because we have paid the registration fees already for next year. If we don't decide soon, there will be no refunds given. This school is running us close to $12,000 per year.

 

If we decide to pull her, that money that would have been going to tuition could be saved up for a car and to help her get started out in college.

 

OH, I just don't know what to do and what the best answer is here! I just want to get my little girl back on the right track. We have been going through this for WAAAAYYYYYY too long now. My husband and I want to do everything possible to help her out before she is out of the house and off to college.

 

Any suggestions????? Thanks and have a wonderful day! : )

[FriedClams]

I will think more on this - but my first inclination is to pull her. Now. Today. And homeschool her. And then I would lay out VERY clear guidelines on what is and is not acceptable behavior and how, if she meets the guidelines, she can return to her friends and her school to graduate with them. Counseling would be a mandatory part of her requirements. Car and phone and social privileges will be earned. If she chooses to continue her disruptive and disrespectful behavior, then she cannot return and she will HS through graduation. That's a pretty huge carrot you have, but you have to use it now. I, of course, would work this all out with my DH and admin at the school before pulling her. And, if necessary, I would pay for her spot at school without her knowing about it if I had to to keep her spot open for next year. You should know in a few months whether or not you'll need to keep paying or if you just need to let the school ("Christian" seems to be a title, not a description) go. And while it sounds nuclear, you would have back-up to return to school, you would have her in counseling (which she might currently be resistant to) and you can really focus on the roots of the issues and your relationship with her during this time.

 

 

BUT - I have 2 small kids. So this may not be useful. But I was a terrible teen. Awful. And going to boarding school 100 miles from home from 14 on saved my relationship with my family. I'd say that was pretty drastic, too.

[outtamyshell]

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I hope you get lots of great ideas and advice here. But don't let everyone else's ideas make you second-guess your decisions. She is probably going to find the same kind of friends whereever she goes. Have you talked to her about school options?

 

But you and your husbands are the only ones who know her well enough to figure out what will work. They say a child's rebellion at two is similar to what they go through in the teen years. You've got experience with this kid. I also think you are entitled to revelation to help you. A counsellor can be good if you need help with communicating. You really need her to understand and recognize what she's done is wrong.

 

For my family, this is pretty extreme rebellion. If it were my kid, I would have her drivers license revoked. She would have to earn it back, and it would take at least six months. For my kid, a serious 'discussion' pointing out her other options usually works. She can live with me and follow my rules - or she can support herself and follow her own rules. If she's feeling too grown-up to follow your rules, then she needs to start working on a budget for how she's going to support herself and plan what kind of life she's going to have when she turns 18. Has she had exposure to other lifestyles that aren't as priviledged? Does she know why you have these crazy rules and what kind of head-start you are trying to give her? What are her goals? It's a give and take relationship. If she's not going to be respectfult o you, then why should you be supportive of her goals?

 

We had a similar conversation towards the begining of the school year. DD lost her phone, computer, and car for a while. I talked to her about my background, what we've been through, and all that I'm trying to give her. And I told her that if she wanted to be a slacker she could go live with her father and maybe learn how to be a drug-dealer. She got the point. The restrictions didn't feel like punishments to her. I had the list of things I'd given her and the list of things I expected from her and we discussed our goals and priorities.

 

Keep plugging away and you'll figure it out. She'll thank you for your efforts and apologize properly when she's raising her own kids. Until then, you can come here for hugs and encouragement.

:grouphug:

[Remudamom]

I'd pull her out and ground her butt. Homeschool. No car, no ipod, no phone. But really, 17 is pretty old to be dealing with this. This sort of thing doesn't happen overnight.

 

I've got two teen girls, one of them is 17. She's an delight. The 15 yr old has a bit of attitude, but "it's not my turn to feed the dog" is about as bad as it gets right now. You have my sympathies.

[Mary in VA]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

I don't have any answers for you. I have two dds, but by God's grace haven't had to go through what you're going through. And I truly believe some kids seem to have to to things the hard way, it sure is hard on the parents

 

One thing stood out to me me about your post. What are her plans for after HS? You mention college, but if she doesn't do a 180 turn-around during her senior year are you planning to send her to college? Because without solid, clear evidence she has it together and is making responsible choices that could make things MUCH worse. Does she plan on you paying for it?

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Mary

Edited February 24, 2010 by Mary in VA

[Pamela H in Texas]

I don't really know the school answer. Obviously, we're homeschoolers so it's easy to say homeschool. And if you do that, you'd have her home in order to discipline (teach/guide/correct) more readily. And like Remunda, I have two joys of teens.

 

I can understand if PS is more of an option for y'all. It may be that she goes for the same crowd. But it isn't a definite. I got in trouble when I went back to public school at 14. After a very short time, I went to another school and did SIGNIFICANTLY better. It wasn't perfect at first, but I got in with a good group of kids and it worked out.

 

However, I REALLY want to encourage you to step up the disciplining. Please take the following in the best light. You have SO little time left to help her more hands on. I read your post thinking, "why does she still have an iPod?" and "They let her get her license?" and things like that. There is no way I would allow my daughter to go without consequences (or with weak or unfinished ones). Being weak in discipline (which is mostly about teaching, guiding, encouraging, helping; but sometimes needs logical and possibly even punitive consequences) is a HUGE disservice to a child. So my advice isn't necessarily to punish her into repentance (though there may be some things that seem like punishment to her), but that you have a year and a half to guide this kiddo into thinking about people other than herself, to making better choices, to standing up for her beliefs, to being a contributor to the family and community, etc.

 

And she may "hate" you now for doing it. But when she gets her head on straight, she'll thank you (hopefully, literally!).

Edited February 24, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Harriet Vane]

The one thing I will say is that public school will not make this problem any better. I would move towards a more restrictive environment rather than a less restrictive one.

 

I do not have teenagers myself, so take this with a grain of salt. I have, however, worked through some really rough stages with my younger siblings and with urban teens (through a ministry context).

 

I think of Cassie Bernall, who died in the Colombine massacre. I remember reading that she had an period of struggle and rebellion, and that her parents responded by shutting down her life (heavily supervised, not allowed to be with certain friends, etc.). It was months of hard effort and heartache, but Cassie did eventually come to a renewed relationship with Christ. She was able to earn privileges back in the process.

 

For your daughter, it seems she is not handling her freedoms appropriately, so she needs to regress a little to a lifestyle that does not include those freedoms.

 

If her time with friends is destructive, then perhaps she should not be allowed to be with them. Time with friends should be supervised directly by you if that is what she needs. Similarly, if she is not handling her car privileges well, then she cannot drive the car--perhaps for many months. The guiding principle needs to be that her rebellion is an indication that she needs to be coached/supervised more heavily (and of course, lovingly).

[AuntieM]

I would definitely revoke the driver's license. She's breaking the law there.

 

Have you spoken with her high school guidance counselors? Do they have anything to say about the crowd she is running with? Are you in touch with the parents of any of her "friends"? It seems to me she is hanging out with a bunch that is encouraging her to go down this road. Has she always been with them, or is she suddenly hanging out with a new group? Is her behavior a sudden change, or has she been on a slippery slope for a while now?

 

It sounds like she needs to get away from this current peer group. But if you send her over to the public school, you run the risk of trading one bad group for another.

 

If you pull her out now, would she be able to return for her senior year if her attitude and behavior improves?

 

This may sound harsh, but.... *if* I were in your shoes, I may take her in for a drug test. If she tests positive, it may answer some questions and give you a huge bargaining chip. Also, senior year is a biggie. Does she fully understand she is standing on the threshold of missing out on those big senior class events?

 

Just some things to think about. And :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[WishboneDawn]

You guys sound like you have some big relationship issues that need to get sorted out and pulling her out might help you address that if you're careful about it. Maybe you could incorporate some outings and activities together that would help you relate to each other. Homeschooling is fine but if you guys are at each other all day how far will it get you? So use it as a time to reconnect if possible?

 

If hsing isn't an option I'd keep her in the private school. You said it isn't the issue.

 

Regardless, I'd take away car and phone priviledges. She can't be trusted and has proved that.

 

When it comes to her music, I really wouldn't go and delete them off her ipod. The car and phone are yours and you pay the bills but the ipod is her property and disrespecting that will only help her justify her disrepect of your property and rules. I know the music isn't acceptable to you but instead, could you see why it's acceptable to her? Ask her about it, what attracts her to it whether it's some message under the swearing or it's just a strong beat or it's some emotional fix she gets? Kids do this, retreat into music that angers there parents when they feel there's a distance between their parents and themselves. Sometimes they use that music to say the things they feel they can't so that when you delete it or ban it the child interprets that as you shutting them up. So get interested in the music and be willing to hear her out about it.

[Remudamom]

Another thought, my youngest was buying her own clothes, and I didn't like them. I did not tell her she couldn't wear them or buy what she wanted, but I pointed out to her that her choices were not God honoring. Yes, it seemed like a little thing, the clothes were just a little tight, the jeans a little low, but it was a choice that she had made. I told her that a bad choice in a small thing was going to escalate into a bad choice about a bigger thing and on and on.

 

Haven't seen the clothes since.

[hornblower]

I think you have what Gordon Neufeld calls a 'peer dependent' child. She cares about her peers' opinions a lot more than about yours.

 

I agree though that the problem is her age. In many parts of the world, 18 is an adult. She's getting awfully close.

 

I think this is beyond the issue of school, homeschool or anything else - this is about the person she is becoming and her relationship with you.

 

I think you'll see that trying to apply consequences is going to be hopeless at this point. She'll try to figure out ways to work around you or to ignore you or just to plain thwart your limits. Worst case scenario, she'll just leave. The time for consequences and limits was many years ago. That being said, I still would apply some consequences. There's no reason for her to be driving. The car is no longer hers to use.

 

I personally would let the music issue go. There are much bigger issues here. I think you're blowing out little candles and not seeing the BIG wall of fire coming down the hill.

 

What I think needs to happen is that you need to re-build your relationship. Do things she wants to do. Have a weekly movie date. In the thread about husbands, someone said 14h/week was a good goal as far as spending time with loved ones. SO - aim for 14h/week of chatting, being together. It could be helping her with homework, it could be doing chores, going shopping. I suspect you'll need to bite your tongue a lot, she'll drive you crazy a lot, but if you put tons of energy into just being with her, she might come back to you.

 

FWIW, I would homeschool her - but the reality is that at this age, she needs to see the reason for it and agree or she won't do it. She's not an age where you can force much - you have to nourish it and hope, not force.

 

BTW, Gordon Neufeld has a DVD course called Making Sense of Adolescence but I'm not sure how much help it would be now. Reading Hold on to Your Kids would probably help in terms of seeing where the problems are coming from. http://www.gordonneufeld.com/booksvideos.php

[fairfarmhand]

"I just can't get past the thought that next year will be her senior year and would it just devastate her to be pulled from school & put into another during that time. "

 

It sounds to me that this young lady could use a little bit of devastation. Maybe she needs a serious sit down with mom and dad. Not AFTER she's done something else, just to let her know that you are considering pulling the rug out from under her. This is it; the party's over. You are paying big bucks for her lifestyle and that is about to change. She may be WANTING you to put your foot down and stop her from destroying herself or getting started on the wrong foot in life. Whatever you decide about her schooling, she needs to see that she has the decision power here. She can decide to behave and life will continue peacefully, or she can not cooperate and her whole world will be changed. It is entirely up to her. The lying and sneaking must stop now and trust will have to be earned. I would pull the driver's license definitely; she can earn it back as she cooperates. Not just for a week, she must show a pattern of changed behavior. .

[Jackie in NE]

I'm so sorry you're experiencing this. My oldest is just 15, and she is a good kid. That is to say, right now she's following our rules and toeing the line. But there have been times that she has been rude and disrespectful. I found that it was directly tied to what she was doing in her "free" time. When we learned that she was going inappropriate places on the web, we shut that down. When we found that she was lying, we called her on it, immediately. It was so hard to see that she was losing respect for me. Because my words fell on deaf ears while she was being disrespectful. It didn't matter to her that I was sacrificing much so that she could have the opportunities I never had. It just didn't matter. The thing that has helped my dd was getting her into a youth group with a good leader. We had to go to a different church to find a leader she respected. She is basically hearing the same thing there that she did from us, but it apparently carries much more weight than it did coming from her father and me.

 

The obedience and respect has to come from within. Counseling sounds like a good idea. Consequences for her ridiculous behavior must be a part of the equation imho. Also imho, the counselor must be a Christian. I have heard about some pretty wacked out advice coming from non-Christian counselors. Their advice needs to be in line with your values, or the chasm between you and your dd will get bigger.

 

I wish you the best. This is such a critical time for your dd, as she is making decisions now that will effect her the rest of her life. (Ask me how I know). But even if she continues to rebel and make poor decisions, God is merciful. She can still come around. (Again, ask me how I know). You just hate to see her go through the repercussions of her rebellion. But with some kids, I guess that's how they have to learn.

 

Also, I would not put her in ps. I would take away all her privileges, and make her, (yes make her) do some volunteer work in a soup kitchen, or picking up trash, or planting trees. Something to get her back in touch with the realities of life. I had a friend that had her dd move a stack of hay bales from here to there, and then from there to here, again and again. The message was "this is the kind of work you'll be doing if you don't straighten up and fly right". Her dd got the message.

 

Blessings, Jackie

[Teachin'Mine]

Her fluctuation in grades and other behaviors suggest to me that she may be using drugs. I would strongly recommend an evaluation with an alcohol/drug counselor along with drug testing. If it's not part of the problem - that would be great and you can rule that out, but if it is, no schooling situation will make the underlying problem go away. That will have to be dealt with as well.

 

I agree with making a change for her now. Waiting for next September will just give her more time to continue as she has. Maybe you can talk with her school and ask if she can work from home and keep up with her classes that way until such time as she can return. All her work can still be submitted to her teachers and maybe she can have some tutoring from them at home as well. Her school should be willing to work with you. They should also understand the situation and make allowances for being flexible with her returning in the fall without requiring substantial financial commitment from you, but then again, that's their call to make.

 

Friends have so much more influence over our children than we can imagine. I think it would be very hard for her behaviors to change if she's still with her same friends at school and getting together with them at other times as well. Personally I think a clean break might be needed and then when her attitude begins to change, give her opportunities to form new friendships with positive teens.

 

I think that just allowing her to continue as she has isn't going to do her any good, and will probably be worse once she's off to college. Now is the time to help her and to reconnect.

 

I think she needs love and understanding, but also some definite rules and non-negotiable consequences. She's not been respecting the rules you have given her and now she needs to earn back your trust, and her privileges. If you're not sure how to go about this, go with your husband and get some professional advice. You have to know what you're going to do before you tell her what's expected from her, and what the consequences will be when those expectations aren't met.

 

I will be praying for you and your family. Your daughter is lucky to have a loving family who cares enough to make tough decisions for her benefit.

[at the beach]

I think you have what Gordon Neufeld calls a 'peer dependent' child. She cares about her peers' opinions a lot more than about yours.

 

I agree though that the problem is her age. In many parts of the world, 18 is an adult. She's getting awfully close.

 

I think this is beyond the issue of school, homeschool or anything else - this is about the person she is becoming and her relationship with you.

 

I think you'll see that trying to apply consequences is going to be hopeless at this point. She'll try to figure out ways to work around you or to ignore you or just to plain thwart your limits. Worst case scenario, she'll just leave. The time for consequences and limits was many years ago. That being said, I still would apply some consequences. There's no reason for her to be driving. The car is no longer hers to use.

 

I personally would let the music issue go. There are much bigger issues here. I think you're blowing out little candles and not seeing the BIG wall of fire coming down the hill.

 

What I think needs to happen is that you need to re-build your relationship. Do things she wants to do. Have a weekly movie date. In the thread about husbands, someone said 14h/week was a good goal as far as spending time with loved ones. SO - aim for 14h/week of chatting, being together. It could be helping her with homework, it could be doing chores, going shopping. I suspect you'll need to bite your tongue a lot, she'll drive you crazy a lot, but if you put tons of energy into just being with her, she might come back to you.

 

FWIW, I would homeschool her - but the reality is that at this age, she needs to see the reason for it and agree or she won't do it. She's not an age where you can force much - you have to nourish it and hope, not force.

 

BTW, Gordon Neufeld has a DVD course called Making Sense of Adolescence but I'm not sure how much help it would be now. Reading Hold on to Your Kids would probably help in terms of seeing where the problems are coming from. http://www.gordonneufeld.com/booksvideos.php

:iagree:

 

I have a 21 yo dd who was always in regular school. We certainly had our issues when she was in jr. high and high school. I have a strong-willed 13 yo dd and I don't think we will have the same conflict I had with our oldest and I believe that this is because she is not in school like the oldest. With the oldest, it really did become an issue of peer dependence. We are very close now and she is a delightful young lady. She's always been a wonderful person, but we had those struggles that really stemmed from peer dependence. All her friends were good kids, no drugs or anything like that. But it was still a struggle. I never interfered with what music she listened to or what movies she saw. She also was online a lot chatting with friends. I just let it go. She made those decisions at that age. I think that's just a useless fight. I second the recommendation of Hold Onto Your Kids. Great book!

 

IMO it's not effective strategy at this age to tell her what she can and cannot read, watch or listen to at this stage as long as it's not illegal. Why are the friends a bad influence? What is it specifically that they are into? Drugs, drinking, sex? She's in school and you gotta deal with it now. I wouldn't pull her and put her elsewhere, I would just try to rebuild as Hornblower says. ETA: My dd never did things like sneak around with the car, though, but had she done that, I would have taken away driving privileges.

 

What are her plans for after high school? I always told my dd that what she did in high school as far as choices she made could impact her for a long time. IOW, if she chose to drink and got caught she could be in legal trouble. I always stressed how important it was to make good choices taking into account one's future. She got that and it helped I think.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Violet

[Sonshine]

Actions have consequences. Losing her senior year at the school she prefers may be one of then. Frankly, it sounds like she doesn't have long lasting enough consequences already. It is hard to get a handle on what works with these kids. You may want to read some of John Rosemond's books and information on his website. He has clear practical guidelines for dealing with this sort of stuff.

[Greta]

I say this with compassion and a gentle tone, and I hope that comes across, but what strikes me from your post is that I think there may be a lack of balance going on in your dealings with her. What I mean by that is . . .

 

She listens to very horrible music with extremely explicit lyrics (yes, we delete them off her ipod when we discover them),

 

This, screening the music of a a 17 year old, strikes me as very restrictive.

 

If we decide to pull her, that money that would have been going to tuition could be saved up for a car and to help her get started out in college.

 

While this, even thinking about buying a car for a teen who has shown a total disregard in the use of your car for your rules, your feelings, and THE LAW, strikes me as very lenient, even indulgent. Given her behavior on this issue, a car would not even be on the table at my house, not even a remote possibility.

 

Of course all I know about you is this post, and I am not trying to judge you in any way. But these two contrasting things just left me wondering if maybe by being too strict with her in some ways, you have damaged your relationship with her, while being too lenient with her in other ways, you have damaged her respect for you. The problem is, I don't have any brilliant advice for you in how to fix it! All I can say is since you know your family better than any of us, really search your heart about things you can to do rebuild your relationship with your daughter. The school choice is really a distant second place to that. I think she is hurting and confused right now, and as obnoxious as she is being to you and the rest of your family, she does need you to help her heal it.

 

:grouphug:

[Only me]

My daughter is 17 but will be 18 in July so she is a senior. I've been lucky and haven't had to deal with the same issues that you have but I can tell you that the past few years have been our most challenging discipline wise. Our issues have been more about contributing around the house, treating her brother nicer and the fact that she doesn't think we should tell her what to do anymore about computer time, the time she goes to bed, eating meals, etc. I can only tell you what I would do if I were in your situation.

 

My daughter was homeschooled 3rd through 8th. She went to a public school freshman year and has been at a private christian school 10th through current (senior year). I would not send your daughter to the public school. Even though you will find many problems at both kinds of school we found things to be much worse at the public school. At the public school kids would openly talk about the parties they went to over the weekend, getting drunk, sleeping around, etc. The teachers would hear the conversations but would either ignore it or join in and laugh about it. There was a lot higher percentage of kids that behaved that way. Quite honestly my daughter felt that it was dragging her down.

 

At the private school there is a zero tolerance policy. If they find out that a kid was drinking they would be expelled. Actually this just happened in January. So of course you aren't going to get away from those kind of kids but there are a ton less at my daughter's current school. You still have kids going to parties, etc. and they talk about it out of earshot from the teachers but I think there is a lot less. Not only are the kids scared of getting expelled and I think it deters at least some of them but I think there are fewer kids participating in that kind of behavior. We find this to be true not only with drinking but with other things too. I think a lot of the parents have the same kind of reaction that they aren't paying that kind of money for tuition for there kids to waste it by getting bad grades in school or risk getting expelled. It would have been so much easier for my daughter to get in with the wrong kind of crowd at the other school.

 

You didn't say whether your daughter has a job or needs to drive herself to and from school. If she doesn't, I would take away her license right away. I would actually physically take it away from her so that it would deter her from driving at all when she is with friends. I know it would be more work for you but I would also start treating her like I would a younger teen. It might be difficult for you to pick which friends she hangs out with but you can limit the time she is with them. I would let her go out with them (to movies, shopping etc.) but I would drive her to and from those places. If you find out that she is leaving the mall or movies to go somewhere else then I would restrict her even more. Quite honestly I would restrict her in this way for at least a month or two if not until summer. She won't like it but she will know that you are serious. At home if she is being nasty or not following your rules I would take away more privileges (computer time, TV time, take away her phone). She can earn those things back.

 

The thing that worries me the most about your post is the fact that she has had risky behavior while driving (driving with too many kids in the car). I have known too many teens killed recently. They weren't drunk or on drugs but were just distracted by other kids in the car. Honestly teens don't "need" a license at 17. My daughter doesn't even have her license yet. It's not because we don't trust her but we have had a rough year medically with her younger sister and we haven't been able to devote the time with practicing with her. Because of this she just wasn't confident enough to get her license yet, although she probably will get it over spring break.

 

As far as the music is concerned I definitely wouldn't like it if my daughter was listening to that kind of music but at this point I might want to choose my battles. Also I'm not sure where she is getting money to buy more songs on her IPOD but if you are supplying it I think you could stop. My daughter doesn't have a job (our choice) so I occasionally give her I-Tunes cards or money for her Zune. If I knew she was downloading inappropriate songs I would stop giving her the money right away. I don't think that I would delete them from her Ipod though.

 

I think it is great that you are getting counseling for her. I think that this is a difficult age. At times it seems like my daughter wants to be an adult and doesn't want us to tell her to do anything. At other times, I can tell that she still craves guidance.

[Joker]

I think you have what Gordon Neufeld calls a 'peer dependent' child. She cares about her peers' opinions a lot more than about yours.

 

I agree though that the problem is her age. In many parts of the world, 18 is an adult. She's getting awfully close.

 

I think this is beyond the issue of school, homeschool or anything else - this is about the person she is becoming and her relationship with you.

 

I think you'll see that trying to apply consequences is going to be hopeless at this point. She'll try to figure out ways to work around you or to ignore you or just to plain thwart your limits. Worst case scenario, she'll just leave. The time for consequences and limits was many years ago. That being said, I still would apply some consequences. There's no reason for her to be driving. The car is no longer hers to use.

 

I personally would let the music issue go. There are much bigger issues here. I think you're blowing out little candles and not seeing the BIG wall of fire coming down the hill.

 

What I think needs to happen is that you need to re-build your relationship. Do things she wants to do. Have a weekly movie date. In the thread about husbands, someone said 14h/week was a good goal as far as spending time with loved ones. SO - aim for 14h/week of chatting, being together. It could be helping her with homework, it could be doing chores, going shopping. I suspect you'll need to bite your tongue a lot, she'll drive you crazy a lot, but if you put tons of energy into just being with her, she might come back to you.

 

FWIW, I would homeschool her - but the reality is that at this age, she needs to see the reason for it and agree or she won't do it. She's not an age where you can force much - you have to nourish it and hope, not force.

 

BTW, Gordon Neufeld has a DVD course called Making Sense of Adolescence but I'm not sure how much help it would be now. Reading Hold on to Your Kids would probably help in terms of seeing where the problems are coming from. http://www.gordonneufeld.com/booksvideos.php

 

:iagree:with everything Hornblower said. I was your dd. Years later my mom told me they reacted the way they did because a counselor told her that if they pushed back too hard, I would be gone. They spent more time trying to figure out who I was instead of who they wanted me to be. Looking back, I was actually relieved I was allowed to finish up my last year of school at home. I was very peer dependent and pretty much followed the crowd. The friends I had been friends with since grade school had turned into some bad teenagers but they were all I knew. I hope you're able to work things out.

[Joanne]

Along the lines of the great post referencing Neufeld:

 

I'd work on areas of agreement, connection, relationship. I'd let go of micro-management (dress, music).

 

I'd be firm on actual areas of character (behavior, which music isn't) and safety (vehicle).

 

I'd make sure she's financially responsible for her activities, "extra" clothes, premium toiletries, beauty products, entertainment, etc.

 

You won't (re)win her heart with heavy handed consequences imposed by scared, frustrated parents. All she'll see is confimation of how she already percieves you - and it will keep or make greater the distance between you.

 

Start over as the transitioning to parent of adult child. Find ways to laugh with, connect with, spend time with, affectionately interact with her.

[nrg]

I don't know you or the situation well enough to give specific advice, but I do have a general idea. With my teens, it has been beneficial to talk with them about our (their parents) home and our possessions and how we choose to live. For example, in our home, everyone is in by midnight, we obey the law at all times, we are honest with each other, we do not have pornography or explicit lyrics inthe home we have made, we do not smoke, drink, use drugs, etc. We then talk about how we adults cannot support exceptions to these standards. Therefore, no car if we are not sure the driver will be doing the right thing, no expensive school if the student does not uphold the code, no private music if we cannot be sure our standards are upheld, etc. This is not given as a lecture, but as a discussion that begins with talking about the teens' goals and desires (and fears for the future), relationships, etc. The teens' personal code and self-description. I am having a hard time describing this, just that both sides need an opportunity to find out what is going on. Then the parents draw the uncrossable line. Somewhere there is hurt. Teens need to deal with their hurts in positive ways and torecognize how they are hurting themselves.

[Joyfullyblessed]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

I just typed an entire response back only for it not to post for some reason. So, while I don't have time to type that entire thing again, I do want to clarify some things.

 

Our daughter has NO privileges right now. There is no phone, computer, TV, NO DRIVING, no going out with friends, etc... nothing.

 

She has no cell phone because we cut that off in November for bad behavior. She no longer has facebook due to big problems with that also.

 

We do NOT allow her to just get away with things. We are doing everything we can think of to try and get through to this child. We have sat down many times and had talks about this and I have even written out a long letter to her explaining how much we love her and want to be close with her.

 

The music is NOT a small issue to me and is not very restrictive in my opinion. By the way, I worded it wrong previously. We did not delete the songs off of her ipod, but made her do that instead. In no way do I consider that disrespecting her.

 

She got the money to purchase music from Christmas. This actually happened on Christmas day. She received a new ipod, Itunes cards and purchased the garbage music that very day. We are not talking a few bad words here. We are talking music that refers to killing, murder, degrading women, sexual content, etc... it is just HORRIBLE.

 

No, she does not have to listen to just Christian music, but there are alternatives out there. I STRONGLY believe that what you listen to, what you watch on TV, the people you hang out with definitely influence how you think and how you may behave in life.

 

Anyway, that was just one of the problems we dealt with, and yes, it may be small compared to what she has been doing recently, but it still mattered in my opinion and does have an effect on what I am seeing in her behavior.

 

There is soooo much more, but I am genuinely worn down by all of this stuff. That is why I needed some helpful advice.

 

We will find a good Christian counselor and I just hope & pray this is the key to getting our daughter back on the right path. It is so very important to us. My family is my world no matter what.

 

Oh, and homeschooling her is not an option for several reasons. Unfortunately, I have no time to go into the details, but it really would not work.

 

Thanks again everyone!

[Parrothead]

No public school. No private school unless attitude changes drastically. No car unless she buys it. She needs to get a job, and some responsibility.

[Kathleen in VA]

Here is a link to an mp3 sermon by Dr. S.M. Davis called "Changing the Heart of a Rebel." I listened to this sermon a very long time ago so cannot remember the details, but I think that since it is free, it is worth a listen. You may hear some little nugget that could help you in this situation.

[My3Boys]

You guys sound like you have some big relationship issues that need to get sorted out and pulling her out might help you address that if you're careful about it. Maybe you could incorporate some outings and activities together that would help you relate to each other. Homeschooling is fine but if you guys are at each other all day how far will it get you? So use it as a time to reconnect if possible?

 

If hsing isn't an option I'd keep her in the private school. You said it isn't the issue.

 

Regardless, I'd take away car and phone priviledges. She can't be trusted and has proved that.

 

When it comes to her music, I really wouldn't go and delete them off her ipod. The car and phone are yours and you pay the bills but the ipod is her property and disrespecting that will only help her justify her disrepect of your property and rules. I know the music isn't acceptable to you but instead, could you see why it's acceptable to her? Ask her about it, what attracts her to it whether it's some message under the swearing or it's just a strong beat or it's some emotional fix she gets? Kids do this, retreat into music that angers there parents when they feel there's a distance between their parents and themselves. Sometimes they use that music to say the things they feel they can't so that when you delete it or ban it the child interprets that as you shutting them up. So get interested in the music and be willing to hear her out about it.

 

When it comes to the IPOD, it may be her personal property, but you can still say what is allowed in your home. You paid for the house and you get to say what is allowed in it and what isn't. We had a problem with our 2 oldest purchasing inappropriate CDs and DVDs. Only a few, but one bad one is enough! We made it clear that even though they used their money they had earned, we still had the right to make the rules about what was allowed in the house, they had a much younger brother who was at a very impressionable age, and were forewarned that anything brought into the home that dh and I deemed inappropriate would be thrown out as soon as it was discovered. In some cases, they weren't even aware the stuff was "bad". The had heard their friends talking about it and hadn't bothered to check it out before purchasing it. That led to a dicussion on discernment and caution about blindly following what their friends do. As far as we know, that pretty much ended the problem.

[Joanne]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

I just typed an entire response back only for it not to post for some reason. So, while I don't have time to type that entire thing again, I do want to clarify some things.

 

Our daughter has NO privileges right now. There is no phone, computer, TV, NO DRIVING, no going out with friends, etc... nothing.

She has no cell phone because we cut that off in November for bad behavior. She no longer has facebook due to big problems with that also.We do NOT allow her to just get away with things. We are doing everything we can think of to try and get through to this child. We have sat down many times and had talks about this and I have even written out a long letter to her explaining how much we love her and want to be close with her.

 

The music is NOT a small issue to me and is not very restrictive in my opinion. By the way, I worded it wrong previously. We did not delete the songs off of her ipod, but made her do that instead. In no way do I consider that disrespecting her.

 

She got the money to purchase music from Christmas. This actually happened on Christmas day. She received a new ipod, Itunes cards and purchased the garbage music that very day. We are not talking a few bad words here. We are talking music that refers to killing, murder, degrading women, sexual content, etc... it is just HORRIBLE.

 

No, she does not have to listen to just Christian music, but there are alternatives out there. I STRONGLY believe that what you listen to, what you watch on TV, the people you hang out with definitely influence how you think and how you may behave in life.

 

Anyway, that was just one of the problems we dealt with, and yes, it may be small compared to what she has been doing recently, but it still mattered in my opinion and does have an effect on what I am seeing in her behavior.

 

There is soooo much more, but I am genuinely worn down by all of this stuff. That is why I needed some helpful advice.

 

We will find a good Christian counselor and I just hope & pray this is the key to getting our daughter back on the right path. It is so very important to us. My family is my world no matter what.

 

Oh, and homeschooling her is not an option for several reasons. Unfortunately, I have no time to go into the details, but it really would not work.

 

Thanks again everyone!

 

Removal of privileges, censoring her music, lectures, no facebook, engaging with her in a severe restrictive, probably age inappropriate level of micro management hasn't worked.

 

Again, I suggest a different paradigm.

 

I bolded the parts I believe are going to keep the disconnect and rebellion rather than heal the situation.

 

How is *more* of the same pattern and response going to change something?

[LBC]

I think you have what Gordon Neufeld calls a 'peer dependent' child. She cares about her peers' opinions a lot more than about yours.

 

 

:iagree:Another vote for Dr. Neufeld. One of the issues he addresses about peer dependency is that when a teen becomes peer dependent, they actually experience anxiety when they are separated from their peers. Gaining approval from peers becomes as important as your approval used to be. He also points out that when peers become their primary attachment, parents are perceived as the "enemy" when they don't agree with peers. He recommends taking the teen away for a week or two to reconnect with parents, away from peers. The first few days can be pretty tough, but if you use the time away to "work the attachment relationship", you can win back the heart of your teen.

 

I was a very rebellious teen. I wish my parents had read Hold on to Your Kids.

 

:grouphug: Lori

[Laura Corin]

You might want to read Hold On To Your Kids, by Neufeld. It's about reconnecting with children who are very peer oriented. The first chapter is available for free on line.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[My3Boys]

Removal of privileges, censoring her music, lectures, no facebook, engaging with her in a severe restrictive, probably age inappropriate level of micro management hasn't worked.

 

Again, I suggest a different paradigm.

 

I bolded the parts I believe are going to keep the disconnect and rebellion rather than heal the situation.

 

How is *more* of the same pattern and response going to change something?

 

It's called "being the parents". What you say goes. Just wait until she is employed someday and breaks the rules or mouths off to her boss. She is going to find herself without a job and without a way to pay her bills. It's far better she get a healthy dose of reality now.

 

It sounds like she only recently implemented these changes. Sometimes it takes awhile for them to "get it". Teenagers are very good at attempting to make your life a living h*ll when they don't get their way. You don't give in even if they are successful at that attempt.

 

It's also a matter of principle. They are paying for the computer, the car, etc. They should not have to financially support activities that go against their beliefs.

 

Restricting her use of certain things, especially the car, and limiting her contact with certain people not only lessens the bad influences; it limits the possibility of her getting herself into some real trouble, maybe even a situation that's potentially dangerous.

 

I'm on my third teenager. Parents of teens should get combat pay.

[Joanne]

It's called "being the parents". What you say goes. Just wait until she is employed someday and breaks the rules or mouths off to her boss. She is going to find herself without a job and without a way to pay her bills. It's far better she get a healthy dose of reality now.

 

It sounds like she only recently implemented these changes. Sometimes it takes awhile for them to "get it". Teenagers are very good at attempting to make your life a living h*ll when they don't get their way. You don't give in even if they are successful at that attempt.

 

It's also a matter of principle. They are paying for the computer, the car, etc. They should not have to financially support activities that go against their beliefs.

 

Restricting her use of certain things, especially the car, and limiting her contact with certain people not only lessens the bad influences; it limits the possibility of her getting herself into some real trouble, maybe even a situation that's potentially dangerous.

 

I'm on my third teenager. Parents of teens should get combat pay.

 

I've got 2 teens. The child in the OP has no normal for her age privileges and the OP is asking for advice. I can't imagine being told what music to listen to, not having Facebook, TV, friends or computer is going to *change* or *transform* an at risk teen.

 

Safety issues such as the car? I agree with *related* consequences.

 

The real world, boss, and healthy dose of reality arguement is a red herring. Parents are not employers, the teen/adult is a highly specific stage of life.

 

I'm not advocating permissiveness. I'm suggesting that the progressive and sustained loss of privileges isn't working and is likely counter productive.

[LauraGB]

Removal of privileges, censoring her music, lectures, no facebook, engaging with her in a severe restrictive, probably age inappropriate level of micro management hasn't worked.

 

Again, I suggest a different paradigm.

 

I bolded the parts I believe are going to keep the disconnect and rebellion rather than heal the situation.

 

How is *more* of the same pattern and response going to change something?

 

:iagree: Having personally been the kid you are describing, the thing that made the biggest impact on me is when my parents said "Hey, you are almost an adult. Seventeen is too old this. Practice being an adult. Work it out and good luck." Then, they took away material priveliges (not my own things, but the things they provided), like the use of thier car. If I wanted one, I had to buy it - insure it, put gas in it, maintain it, etc...just like a real adult who didn't need her parents to micromanage. Naturally, we didn't have computers and cell phones then ;), but if I had wanted any of those things, I certainly would have had to get them on my own. I think it surprised me that there would be no more fighting, no more people to look out for me, no matter how much I thought I hated it. Watching them shrug so matter-of-factly and "give up" really made me nervous because they were right - in one year, I really would be eligible to be out on my own. Scary, even though it was exactly what I wanted - it just gained some serious persepective being worded like that. And once they stopped being so overbearing, attitudes on both sides changed for the better. I'm not saying I didn't make some whopper mistakes because of the choices I made, but I am saying I would have made them either way and I learned A LOT from those mistakes.

 

And I have no doubt my parents were guessing with that method of reaching me and scared to death about the potential results.

 

As far as the music, I don't blame you - I have a good guess what kind of music she is listening to and it wouldn't be allowed in my house either. I have no adivce for you there.

 

I agree with another poster about getting a job - one that takes up most weekends and several weeknight evenings; that way she won't have time to hang out with questionable friends before curfew and she will gain some responsibility.

 

:grouphug:

[LBC]

The real world, boss, and healthy dose of reality arguement is a red herring. Parents are not employers, the teen/adult is a highly specific stage of life.

 

 

 

:iagree:Yup. I was a wild and out of control teenager, but I had a job as a grocery store cashier (unionized, with good pay) from when I turned 16. I knew that I would lose my job if I didn't do what my boss said, and my job was the only thing that could purchase my freedom.:tongue_smilie: I moved out of my parents' place two days after I graduated from high school. I had just turned 18. Within a few months of having my "freedom" I became a Christian, and turned my entire life around. There was nothing left to rebel against, and it was all up to me to make my life work.

 

Lori

[Renee in NC]

Removal of privileges, censoring her music, lectures, no facebook, engaging with her in a severe restrictive, probably age inappropriate level of micro management hasn't worked.

 

Again, I suggest a different paradigm.

 

I bolded the parts I believe are going to keep the disconnect and rebellion rather than heal the situation.

 

How is *more* of the same pattern and response going to change something?

 

:iagree: Let me say this - has it worked so far? It seems the more you restrict and control, the more she finds ways to get away from the restriction and control. It isn't working and it isn't going to work. You cannot control the behavior of a 17yo. She has zero freedom at this point and you keep escalating - it's like a game of "last man standing."

 

Now, you can control the car that belongs to you. She broke the law, she can't drive the car. You can spend your money how you see fit (so if you don't want to pay for private school, then don't.) My father once told my brother that if he wanted to play around and get bad grades, he could do that for free in ps. If her grades aren't bad and she isn't getting into trouble *at* school, what will moving her do?

[Joyfullyblessed]

For those of you who are questioning my restrictions on my daughter.... no, it may not be working. However, I have tried what you are suggesting in allowing her to do all these lovely things and not take them away, but that doesn't seem to work either.

 

It's funny, for a while I was actually being told that I was allowing my daughter to do too much and that was why she was getting into things she shouldn't. So, I tightened up a bit and now I am getting that I am too strict with her.

 

The fact is that my daughter is extremely strong willed and stubborn. She does not like being told what to do at all, not even the simplest thing. She loves to argue and "prove her point" all the time. She likes to remind me that she is in a "prison" regardless of the approach I try to take with her at the time. In her mind, she is always right, therefore, nobody can tell her anything.

 

Taking away privileges like the phone & Facebook seem to be fairly logical to me since those things allow her access to the friends who are pulling her down.

 

Also, it is not like this child is always on restriction. She is given chances to redeem herself and earn everything back. She is given chances to prove her trustworthiness to us quite often. Unfortunately, she is falling short in these areas right now.

 

Oh well, I am just curious to see how the counseling will go. Again, I do thank everyone for their replies. I can see that there is a variety of different opinions in the way I should handle all of this. Thanks.

[MSNative]

I think it's very easy to give advice and very hard to know the specifics of the situation. I hope you are not feeling attacked. We all get passionate about parenting b/c we know that any one of us could be in your shoes. I'm taking notes as we're coming up on the teens way too fast. Sounds like you are trying to do the best with a very difficult situation.

 

I just have one suggestion. Have you read the book You Can't Make Me? http://www.amazon.com/You-Cant-Make-Persuaded-Strong-Willed/dp/1578561930/ref=pd_sim_b_25

 

I read it and it has helped me understand my strong willed child more. I was not strong willed (though I think I'm becoming more so in my old age) and I couldn't "get" him and his choices. This book, written by a SWC who also is parenting a SWC was very illuminating.

 

Good luck with it. If you can, I would like to hear an update from you about your daughter. Your experience could really help all of us. You and you family are in my prayers.

[Garga]

Book, "Hold on to your Kids" by Gordon Neufeld. They give all the advice I'd give, but much better.

 

Just real quick, the advice they give that I'm thinking of in your situation is to take her away on a trip, just the two of you, for days and days. (Yes, even in the middle of the school week.)

 

You need to reconnect and that is more important than anything right now. You need to isolate her with you for as many days as it takes for her to reconnect to you and stop viewing you as the enemy.

[hornblower]

For those of you who are questioning my restrictions on my daughter.... no, it may not be working. However, I have tried what you are suggesting in allowing her to do all these lovely things and not take them away, but that doesn't seem to work either..

 

It sounds like you're saying that you let her have some freedoms and 'that didn't work' - presumably you mean that her bhvr did not match your standards.

 

But just letting her have freedoms is not what people are suggesting. It's not about letting her or not letting her do this or that.

 

It's about building the relationship.

 

I still think in this case you're missing the forest for the trees. You're focusing on relatively small things (though I understand they're important to you) and missing the big picture. A young adult this age who is not self-motivated to get along with parents, to earn their respect and trust is a far bigger issue than banning facebook or taking her iPod away. I think controlling theses issues will either have no effect or outright backfire. That's why I think at this point focusing on individual bhvrs is to some extent irrelevant. I believe you need to focus much much more on restoring your relationship. Even if it means ignoring some bhvrs.

 

And even if you decide (& you certainly seem intent on this) on pursuing punishments and limits, don't just stop there & expect it to have an effect. You'll need to work much harder on this & it won't be grounding/denying privileges type of work.

 

I think some parents and kids just don't click & it makes it tougher on parents but you can do this. You just need to expand your parenting toolbox beyond punishments and control. There's only so much punishment and control you can dole out & as the child gets older, they'll rebel further or run away. I also suggest to you that it's not just her that needs counselling & if you go this route, go to family counselling and be prepared for the counsellor to expect you to give on some issues with grace. If you're going into this with the expectation that she's 100% in the wrong and that the counsellor will somehow compel her to tow your line, you'll be sadly disappointed.

 

~ best wishes,

[AuntieM]

... Parents of teens should get combat pay...

 

I'd settle for a few vacation days! ;)

[hornblower]

Book, "Hold on to your Kids" by Gordon Neufeld. They give all the advice I'd give, but much better.

 

Just real quick, the advice they give that I'm thinking of in your situation is to take her away on a trip, just the two of you, for days and days. (Yes, even in the middle of the school week.)

 

You need to reconnect and that is more important than anything right now. You need to isolate her with you for as many days as it takes for her to reconnect to you and stop viewing you as the enemy.

 

Yes, I agree. I suggested this way up. Get away, go for a girlie weekend, go shopping, see a show, a movie, go to a spa, whatever she likes. GO away with her and reconnect.

 

I've hear Neufeld speak and he says sometimes it requires something more intense - like a week in the wilderness, or a week or two in a foreign country. So here's an idea: withdraw her, take the $ you'll save & go on a trip to Europe, just the two of you. Or maybe just dad & her - whichever one of you connects better with her. Hard to rebel when you're trying to figure out how to order lunch in a foreign language. Go have fun, see some sights, make some memories.Think of it as a medical necessity. If she needed a heart transplant would you make it happen? She does - except it doesn't require surgery.

[secular_mom]

IMO, if you want her respect then you have to show respect for her. She is almost an adult. No matter what YOUR opinion of her music choices are, you should respect that she has a different opinion. I totally understand your POV about her choice of music, and listening to angry music DOES inflame an angry person. BUT, not being allowed to listen to it can cause even more anger and resentment. There are many choices in the real world for her to make, by not allowing her to make them as a 17yo you are delaying maturity.

I would tell her that *I* do not want to hear the music, and I would let her know why *I* think it is not a good thing to listen to, but I'd still let her decide. Obviously the music is a big deal for you, it probably is for her too. It just seems so disrespectful to me, to tell someone that they can no longer have something that they got for them self with a gift card. But, this is JMHSecularO.

[AuntieM]

If she needed a heart transplant would you make it happen? She does - except it doesn't require surgery.

 

 

Nicely put.

[LBC]

It sounds like you're saying that you let her have some freedoms and 'that didn't work' - presumably you mean that her bhvr did not match your standards.

 

But just letting her have freedoms is not what people are suggesting. It's not about letting her or not letting her do this or that.

 

It's about building the relationship.

 

I still think in this case you're missing the forest for the trees. You're focusing on relatively small things (though I understand they're important to you) and missing the big picture. A young adult this age who is not self-motivated to get along with parents, to earn their respect and trust is a far bigger issue than banning facebook or taking her iPod away. I think controlling theses issues will either have no effect or outright backfire. That's why I think at this point focusing on individual bhvrs is to some extent irrelevant. I believe you need to focus much much more on restoring your relationship. Even if it means ignoring some bhvrs.

 

And even if you decide (& you certainly seem intent on this) on pursuing punishments and limits, don't just stop there & expect it to have an effect. You'll need to work much harder on this & it won't be grounding/denying privileges type of work.

 

I think some parents and kids just don't click & it makes it tougher on parents but you can do this. You just need to expand your parenting toolbox beyond punishments and control. There's only so much punishment and control you can dole out & as the child gets older, they'll rebel further or run away. I also suggest to you that it's not just her that needs counselling & if you go this route, go to family counselling and be prepared for the counsellor to expect you to give on some issues with grace. If you're going into this with the expectation that she's 100% in the wrong and that the counsellor will somehow compel her to tow your line, you'll be sadly disappointed.

 

~ best wishes,

:iagree:Excellent advice. I bolded what I believe is the key to your dd's heart. There is no parenting formula. Every child is different, and each parent-child relationship is different. That's why you're receiving so much conflicting advice. If you can win your child's heart through relationship, you may not need to set as many limits, because she will be more likely to want to preserve the relationship that you will have. When I first began to parent this way, it was very scary, and felt very "out of control". Now that my kids are teens, I am so thankful that our relationship has been (and continues to be) the main priority. None of us claim to have this all figured out, and if someone is giving advice that seems to be the "the right thing to do", you should be suspicious. Relationship is not something you "do", but rather a place to work from.

 

Hang in there. It is clear that you love your daughter. These are not easy years.:grouphug:

 

Lori

[Joyfullyblessed]

Wow, such an array of opinions & suggestions!

 

Some I will take into great consideration, others... not so much. We will figure out what works best for our family & that is what is important.

 

My main question was about whether to move our daughter from the private school to public. I now think I have a clearer decision on that, so thank you to those who helped with that situation.

 

As far as everything else with our daughter, I think we will try the counseling and go from there. I believe I have read plenty of responses right now from this thread. Time to move on & make good things happen.

 

Thanks again to everyone who replied. It is appreciated. :)

[WishboneDawn]

Removal of privileges, censoring her music, lectures, no facebook, engaging with her in a severe restrictive, probably age inappropriate level of micro management hasn't worked.

 

Again, I suggest a different paradigm.

 

I bolded the parts I believe are going to keep the disconnect and rebellion rather than heal the situation.

 

How is *more* of the same pattern and response going to change something?

 

Ditto. This is one of those classic Dr. Phil moments, "How's it worked so far?"

[rookie]

I have not read the other replies, only the OP's post.

 

My thoughts:

 

WHY does she still have a license?

WHY do you let her have the keys to the car at all?

WHY would you even consider buying her a car with the private school tuition (if she does not attend)?

WHY does she have an IPOD?

WHY does she have a cell phone?

WHY are you considering paying her college tuition when she does not work for the private school you are providing?

 

I guess I just do not understand WHY she has any privileges. AT. ALL.

 

This is not a private school/public school issue. She can shine or fail at either. A counseler may help but in addition, a dose of reality could help too. She is not owed any of the above things and should not have them if she is not trustworthy, responsible, and grateful for them. And I do not mean that she changes her behavior for a week to get to you to think that all's better now and then con you again. I mean a radical change by you and your DH. She can work, she can earn with hard work, some things back little by little. You will know when her heart has changed. If she accepts correction and caution on your part humbly (after repentence) then she may be changing. If she acts better and then gets pissy if you do not pony-up everything she wants - it is a false change.

 

The car thing is particularly bad because it could end in disaster for herself and others. Take the keys and forget about a car for her! She does not need to go anywhere that you cannot drive her yourself. Do not let her get rides from friends or friends's parents either. That is another way to trick you.

 

Hope things get better soon.

[Greta]

So here's an idea: withdraw her, take the $ you'll save & go on a trip to Europe, just the two of you. Or maybe just dad & her - whichever one of you connects better with her. Hard to rebel when you're trying to figure out how to order lunch in a foreign language. Go have fun, see some sights, make some memories.Think of it as a medical necessity. If she needed a heart transplant would you make it happen? She does - except it doesn't require surgery.

 

Wow, I am just in awe. This is such a brilliant and beautiful suggestion. I can hardly imagine how different my early adulthood would have been if my parents had done something like this to connect with me rather than just doling out more punishments. I am going to buy that book!

[Beth in OH]

I think you'll see that trying to apply consequences is going to be hopeless at this point. She'll try to figure out ways to work around you or to ignore you or just to plain thwart your limits. Worst case scenario, she'll just leave. The time for consequences and limits was many years ago. That being said, I still would apply some consequences. There's no reason for her to be driving. The car is no longer hers to use.

 

:iagree:There's a lot of wisdom in this quote. I just wanted to add a couple of practical considerations on the issue of homeschooling and life in general--not so much for the OP (I think she has that issue already sorted out), but just to add to the discussion for anyone else who might someday face this situation.

 

First, as others have pointed out, 17 is almost a legal adult. As a result, a parent with a child really pushing the limits may find little support through the law enforcement system. The police will often not help much with 17 year old runaways. As a parent, you don't have the "right" to say to a minor, "live by my house rules or live elsewhere." Certain groups of more defiant kids are well aware of the limits on parents to "do anything", and they will continue to live as they want.

 

Withdrawing a reluctant 17 yo to homeschool so that a parent can get her away from bad influences is a tricky business. First, the parent is setting herself up as the only school authority over that child, and for the above mentioned reasons, the parent probably has no real way to make sure that school actually happens. Education requires a willing student--ask any public school teacher who has high schoolers sleep through class. As a substantive matter, your child could make no academic progress through the last few years of high school.

 

Also, a child who is pulled out to homeschool will not have an accredited school diploma. I've graduated one with a homeschool diploma and one with a ps diploma. Believe me, the ps diploma involves much less red tape when applying for colleges or jobs. If the relationship between a homeschooling parent and graduate is strained, working together to jump through the extra hoops sometimes required due to homeschooling, would be very stressful. The accredited diploma will allow that student the independence that she is obviously craving.

 

Finally, if a child leaves public/private school, and after a semester the family discovers that nothing has improved and it may have gotten worse, there's probably no opportunity to send the child back to school. Homeschooling in high school is something that merits serious consideration, because most districts make it an all or nothing proposition.

 

I feel like I'm being a real negative Nancy about homeschooling here on TWTM board, but I firmly believe that homeschooling a high schooler only works if the student has at least some interest in doing it. Having a defiant "near adult" at home 24/7 can take a toll on a family.

 

Beth

[Rosie_0801]

Years later my mom told me they reacted the way they did because a counselor told her that if they pushed back too hard, I would be gone. They spent more time trying to figure out who I was instead of who they wanted me to be.

 

This might help the OP with that: https://www.flagpagetest.com/ Something to chat about on the plane to Europe. :) Such a trip isn't a reward for bad behaviour. It's accompanying her on a rite of passage. Who could come back from a trip where they've seen whatever they want to see in Europe, developed cosmopolitan tastes and go back to drinking with their lousy mates? How immature are they going to look? ;)

 

Rosie

[cathmom]

As far as everything else with our daughter, I think we will try the counseling and go from there. I believe I have read plenty of responses right now from this thread. Time to move on & make good things happen.

 

Thanks again to everyone who replied. It is appreciated. :)

 

Good luck with that! Once you put the thread out there, it has a life of its own.

 

All kidding aside, good luck with your dd. I just read Hold On To Your Kids and it was very worthwhile.

[Liz CA]

Yup. You have one year or less before she is legally an adult. I'd enforce drastic changes NOW. Do everything Remudamom suggested. You'll get a lot of lip and defiance but let's see if she can do it for a whole year. If she shows improvements while she's home, give her privileges back one at a time, the ipod, having friends over at your house! where you can monitor things a little, etc.

If nothing changes, she'll be an adult soon - legally at least - and she will have to learn the hard way.

I am wondering who is paying her car insurance, the gasoline, who will pay for college when she graduates, what kind of contribution to these expenses is she offering?

You could also go this route: Treat her like an adult. She has to pay for everything except the roof over her head and the food on her plate. No extra gifts, everything has to be supported by her job. If she does not have one she'll be looking for one soon. She is rather old for a heavy handed approach IMHO. But you have to decide what you think will make the most (and positive) impact.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Liz CA