s/o kids deciding what to do with their body vs others (strangers!) telling them

[Guest Katia]

This is probably going to sound petty, and be aware from the start that it is also a RANT.

 

My dd has long hair. We are talking to her hips...well, she just got it trimmed and now it's just below her waist-line. It is beautiful and she loves it. It is part of who she is.

 

For years now, people (and I mean even complete strangers) will stop her and run their fingers through her hair, feel it, gather it in their hands...etc. while exclaiming over it. Can you say uncomfortable for both her and I? What makes people think they can touch her body without her permission??

 

And, to make matters worse, many, many of these people then say, "So, when are you going to give your hair to Locks of Love? That is why you're growing it out, right?"

 

Ummm, NO. DD is not giving her hair to anyone. Not that we have a problem with those that choose to do so, but that is their choice. Her choice is that her hair is her hair.

 

People to not take nicely to this. She has had several people, just recently, who badger her and tell her how selfish she is being and that she "will" get her hair cut and give it to Locks of Love. These people are some of the students that attend the cc where she is currently taking classes, as well as adults in our town.

 

So far, dd has managed to just smile and let it go, but they do.not. They just keep at her, while running their fingers through her hair.

 

She and I are both wondering why on earth any person would think it is their right to touch her body and then tell her, in no uncertain terms, what she should do with it! In one class, the girl who keeps at her sits directly behind her, and I am worried that this girl will one day bring in scissors and whack off dd's hair. (I haven't mentioned this to dd....she feels very safe in this class/school and I don't want to worry her).

 

But, really folks! If they were touching any other part of her body and telling her what to do with it......legally heads would roll. Her hair is part of her body. How can we get people to stop touching it? And....what can we say to effectively stop their 'you have to give it to Locks of Love or you are selfish' tirade?

 

Sheesh!

 

Rant over. Thanks.

[LinRTX]

If it is uncomfortable for either you or your daughter, I would probably just step away from them. I have been known to pull my daughter closer to me or step between someone and my daughter when I think someone is getting too personal.

 

As to the other, just say we all have our personal convictions and that you don't agree with all their decisions either. So is there something they are willing to do based on your convictions.

 

We have given to Locks of Love 3 times now, but only because my daughters have made that decision. Personally I would rather them have long hair. I love long hair. But it is my daughters' hair and their decision.

[Carol in Cal.]

My DD has very long hair, too. She gets the comments, but usually not the manhandling. If anyone actually touched her hair, I would step in. That is just so weird.

 

If anyone mentions Locks of Love, I say, "Did you know that that organization has been exposed? They SELL the hair that gets donated to them. Most people think that they give it away, but that's mostly untrue." That usually distracts people quite a bit.

 

If it's a good friend, I say, "We love DD's long hair just the way it is." And then I smile and change the subject.

[Brilliant]

This is probably going to sound petty,

 

No, it doesn't.

 

How can we get people to stop touching it?

 

Say, "Please don't touch my hair" and back away.

 

And....what can we say to effectively stop their 'you have to give it to Locks of Love or you are selfish' tirade?

 

Ask if they have donated a kidney recently? Anybody who keeps both kidneys for herself is selfish!!

[CalicoKat]

sounds like it's a consistent meeting? I'd have my dd put her hair up in a bun or another fav. up-do and coach dd on things to say to stand up for herself like, "Please take your hands off me or I'll have to call the police."

[forty-two]

Arg! I hate the Locks of Love thing. Much of the hair is sold, anyway - while they use the money to help, it's not like your hair is likely to be used for a wig for an actual needy child. (Edited to add: It is more like to become hair extensions for rich people.) You might as well keep your hair and just send money. Besides, who are they to insist you *must* support a specific charity? Are they, themselves, supporting Locks of Love?

 

With the boundary violation of touching her hair, you need to teach her to speak up - or speak up yourself. As you said, "What makes people think they can touch her body without her permission??" Clearly they need to be educated. (BTW, Dobson, talking about levels of physical intimacy, placed touching hair as *more* intimate than kissing.) This is an unwanted touch, and you don't want her to learn that she has to just silently suffer through it.

 

So when it happens, enforce the boundary. Flat out tell the perpetrator to stop it: "I don't want you to touch my hair - stop." You can explain if you want, but all that matters is that the person is violating your dd's personal space and needs to stop now. If she isn't able to enforce the boundary herself, than she needs you to help her.

Edited January 7, 2010 by forty-two

[Parrothead]

I never really though of hair as being a part of the body until your post. I think I've always though of hair growing from the body, but not part of the body.

 

Maybe there are others like me who need to be enlightened.

[Liz CA]

 

Ask if they have donated a kidney recently? Anybody who keeps both kidneys for herself is selfish!!

 

:lol::lol: I would practice this comment if you can pull it off without laughing.

[JeneralMom]

Wow, my hair is extremely long (always either waist or hip length) and I have never, ever had anyone as me about donating to Locks of Love....and my hair is super thick so I would have tons to donate if I was planning on cutting my hair.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't have long hair. However, people are always touching my hair and telling me what I should do to it. They always "know someone" who has curly hair who uses X product to make it less frizzy or who uses Y to straighten their hair. I think it's sort of insulting.

 

I agree that your dd needs to establish better boundaries and be firm about them, as described by other posters.

[Tammyla]

My dd has experienced this as well, she doesn't like it and usually says something like...personal space. The pressure to donate we've been getting as well, and I wonder about that.

[G5052]

When I'm pregnant I stick WAAAY out, and I remember being horrified at the number of people who wanted to touch my belly in the last trimester and make comments. So I began removing their hands and saying, "Please do not touch my belly. It is not yours, and I don't appreciate this at all."

 

And I've taught my daughter to say the same things about her hair because we've experienced the same silliness. "Please do not touch my hair. It is not yours, and I don't appreciate this at all."

 

The more brief and firm you are, the better. Explanations aren't necessary.

[KristenS]

Tell them she's sold her 'hair footprint' (like a carbon footprint) to someone else who's donating on her behalf. LOL.

 

I do cut and donate my hair, but only when it gets so long it's annoying. I like mine long. I would be mad/violated/upset if someone thought it was okay to grab my hair or tell me what to do with it. I'm not sure, though, that I would've known how to handle that as a kid.

 

As for Locks of Love ... I'd like more information about that. I don't care what they do with my hair, as long as the end benefit is for the children. Do they sell ALL the hair, or just some of it that's not up to standards? Does the money go to wigs for kids? Because if it's not the best choice, I'd rather choose someplace else.

[angela in ohio]

I never really though of hair as being a part of the body until your post. I think I've always though of hair growing from the body, but not part of the body.

 

Maybe there are others like me who need to be enlightened.

 

Dds (and I somewhat) have long hair. I don't really think of it as a body part, I guess. Someone touching my hair is the same as them touching my sweater to see if it's soft. That bothers some people and not some. I don't have a problem with "touchy-ness": people touching my hair, arm, shoulders, hugging, etc. I think part of it is from spending a lot of time in dh's school with severely disabled kiddos; they touch everybody all the time, :001_smile: and part of it is from seeing how many people - children and adults - just need the love of human touch. We run a Bible program in an inner-city school, and the kids just want to touch our hair and hug us and hold our hand all the time. When an older lady plays with dd's hair in line at the gorcery store, I assume that she needs love and contact. I have been frank with them about the difference between that and an issue that could be dangerous (like the man at church that likes to hug teen girls.)

 

I don't touch or hug random strangers (or touch pregnant women's bellies) without permission, because I understand that some people don't like that. Not everyone is sensitive to that, though. The part about Locks of Love is over the top, though, to me. We have had a few people ask if that is why we are growing our hair (it is so wierd to have long hair now, I guess.) No one has been that pushy, and I have to say that I would let them know to mind their own business about it.

Edited January 7, 2010 by angela in ohio

[Starr]

My dd has been asked about Locks of Love for many years. It was so difficult for her when she was younger. She would get her feelings hurt or be really mad. The only time her hair was really petted was by old chinese ladies in China town in NYC. She was so blonde when she was young. She wasn't upset by that. She understood that her hair looked as unusual to them as the beautiful little Chinese girls hair did to us. I am only jealous of beautiful dark hair, I do not pet it. :)

[HeatherM2]

I'm thinking this girl must be jealous of your daughter's hair.

 

When I was young I had very blond, very curly, very thick hair and elderly people especially would tug at my hair and say I had to be wearing a wig. Now people touch my hair because they can't believe how thick it is. It doesn't bother me, but if they kept telling me I needed to cut it and donate it I would be setting up boundaries.

[Mrs Mungo]

As for Locks of Love ... I'd like more information about that. I don't care what they do with my hair, as long as the end benefit is for the children. Do they sell ALL the hair, or just some of it that's not up to standards? Does the money go to wigs for kids? Because if it's not the best choice, I'd rather choose someplace else.

 

They do not use hair that has been colored or that has gray hair. That hair is sold. I think there is some confusion because some people this Locks of Love is for cancer patients. I think some wigs go to cancer patients but it was originally formed to help people with alopecia (one of our adult acquaintances has alopecia).

[KristenS]

Ah, thanks, that helps.

 

My hair isn't colored or otherwise treated, but it definitely is beginning to have grey. Well, as long as the money goes to help those who need it, I don't much mind if they sell it.

 

A sweet little girl at our church is going through her second bout of leukemia. She grew her hair long and cut it off to donate before it would fall out naturally from treatment. Now that's sweet!

[homeschoolin'mygirls]

do not touch my hair------The more brief and firm you are, the better. Explanations aren't necessary.

 

Teach her now to firmly say

No-hands off! Don't touch me.

 

Sadly, there are people out there that would like to do more than touch hair, that count on the 'I don't know what to say--I don't want to hurt feelings--etc" reaction so they can do as they will. I love the kidney comment. I agree that if people feel free to comment advise-badger about her charity giving, she should feel free to comment-advise-badger them about theirs. And as a mom, I'd have no trouble helping her in that conversation.

[jujsky]

That's weird, Katia!!!!! I agree -- it's her hair, her body, people should leave her alone about it. Locks of Love is a worthy cause, but like any other cause, no one should feel like they're forced to donate to it. I bet if she DID hack it off and donate it, she'd have an equal amount of people making noise over how she could go and cut off such beautiful hair like that. I'm sorry your DD has to experience this.

[Guest Katia]

Thanks for the validation and advice. It has been very helpful.

 

Funny, how when you have an issue the answer can be so simple and clear, but you just can't.see.it. I've read these responses aloud to dd and she felt validated and empowered. She is now ready to stand up and let people know that her hair is off limits for touching.

 

And....I really liked the 'kidney' response :lol::lol: We'll have to do a lot of practicing to bring that off with a straight face!! :lol:

 

The information about Locks of Love is very appreciated as well. I had NO idea! There is a young boy/young teen in our church that has spent several years growing his hair out long and then donating it to Locks of Love. It is very black and has an adorable soft curl once it gets past his ears. He grows it midway down his back (and yes, gets mistaken for a girl and/or teased) before getting it cut/donating it. He has endured years of this, happily, because he and his mother are under the impression that his curls are being worn by little girls with cancer, somewhere in the world. I think this would break their hearts if they knew it was just being sold. Wow.

 

Thanks again, ladies! We are now totally ready for the semester to start.

[teeleigh2000]

Her hair is absolutely part of her body and no one has any right to touch it without permission!

It is no one's business how she chooses to wear her hair.

How is it selfish for her to keep her hair long?? She is the one who has to have the patience to wait for it to grow and to take care of it.

I got sick of having my hair touched, pulled, etc. while I was in elementary school. Now I can't stand for anyone to mess with my hair.

Also there are some people who have a certain "fondness" for long hair and have a creepy intention behind touching.

So basically, ewww, please don't touch my hair.

[Murphy101]

Argh! My dd is only 8 and has always gotten this treatment. Her hair has often been to the waist and always at least mid back level since she was 4 yes old.

 

Not only do people do as you have experienced I get furious bc people are constantly acting like she is deprived and make comments like "wouldn't you feel pretty with short hair? Or bangs (which she hates btw)? Or wouldn't you like to curl your hair?

 

It just seems like a backhanded way of saying she's ugly in some manner and it ticks me off bc my girl is beauitful tyvm. Smart too. And it makes me want to kick some bum when I see her shrivel up under their comments. ESP when it's my mil.

[stripe]

I totally agree that this is inappropriate -- the only other instance where I think people feel free to touch others is a pregnant woman's abdomen. As I mentioned on another thread, I also think anyone who is pressuring women to grow out their hair to donate it, should be pressured to donate their kidneys and be surrogate mothers.

 

In my opinion, there is some major movement to get women and girls with long hair to cut it off. I have seen SOOOOOO many makeover shows where the host (often with long hair, no less!) insist that the woman should cut her hair to look more fashionable. One has to be willing to buck the trends a bit to have long hair. So I encourage her to stop these rude people, because their comments are really offensive and weird.

[elegantlion]

I get comments on my hair (long, curly) but no one has "petted" it recently. I agree about boundaries. I'd say "I'm sorry but would you please not touch my hair." then back up and smile. Your dd sounds lovely and probably doesn't want to be rude in return, but a firm statement finished by a smile can be very effective without coming across rudely.

[Slartibartfast]

I would NOT LIKE it if someone was touching my hair. That really really BBUUUGGGSS me!

 

It isn't any of their business if she has long hair.

 

This article has more information about Locks of Love, including other ways someone can help. :)

 

http://www.squidoo.com/locksoflove

[Mama Lynx]

Katia, that's just bizarre.

 

Definitely enforce the boundary. I can't imagine touching someone's hair without their permission!

[Peek a Boo]

long hair here. It doesn't usually bother me, but I grew up in San Antonio. The Mexican culture seems to place a high value on touching others, like some sort of honor or approval.

 

That being said, some people really peg my creep meter.

 

if this is in a class, the teacher needs to be informed of the situation so they can advocate for your dd and possibly move her. the teacher might even be able to work in a couple public comments about manners :"can you beLIEVE someone would just walk up and touch someone else's hair like that? I mean, come on!"

 

and yes, I agree that if someone is pestering her, I'd wear it up for awhile and tell her why. Too many Delilahs out there.....:glare:

[Audrey]

This is probably going to sound petty, and be aware from the start that it is also a RANT.

 

My dd has long hair. We are talking to her hips...well, she just got it trimmed and now it's just below her waist-line. It is beautiful and she loves it. It is part of who she is.

 

For years now, people (and I mean even complete strangers) will stop her and run their fingers through her hair, feel it, gather it in their hands...etc. while exclaiming over it. Can you say uncomfortable for both her and I? What makes people think they can touch her body without her permission??

 

And, to make matters worse, many, many of these people then say, "So, when are you going to give your hair to Locks of Love? That is why you're growing it out, right?"

 

Ummm, NO. DD is not giving her hair to anyone. Not that we have a problem with those that choose to do so, but that is their choice. Her choice is that her hair is her hair.

 

People to not take nicely to this. She has had several people, just recently, who badger her and tell her how selfish she is being and that she "will" get her hair cut and give it to Locks of Love. These people are some of the students that attend the cc where she is currently taking classes, as well as adults in our town.

 

So far, dd has managed to just smile and let it go, but they do.not. They just keep at her, while running their fingers through her hair.

 

She and I are both wondering why on earth any person would think it is their right to touch her body and then tell her, in no uncertain terms, what she should do with it! In one class, the girl who keeps at her sits directly behind her, and I am worried that this girl will one day bring in scissors and whack off dd's hair. (I haven't mentioned this to dd....she feels very safe in this class/school and I don't want to worry her).

 

But, really folks! If they were touching any other part of her body and telling her what to do with it......legally heads would roll. Her hair is part of her body. How can we get people to stop touching it? And....what can we say to effectively stop their 'you have to give it to Locks of Love or you are selfish' tirade?

 

Sheesh!

 

Rant over. Thanks.

 

 

First, no one should be allowed to fondle your daughter's hair without asking permission. Period. I would teach her to step away when someone grabs for her hair.

 

Second, about Locks of Love... it is very popular with girls to grow their hair and cut it for donation. It is also a very lovely organization - a truly worthwhile cause. That doesn't obviate the necessity for your daughter to donate, though. Perhaps you could help your dd craft a response that puts the topic of conversation to an end? I'm thinking something along the lines of "why no, I wasn't going to donate it. I just like my hair long. It is a wonderful cause, though." And, then change the subject.

[dirty ethel rackham]

They do not use hair that has been colored or that has gray hair. That hair is sold. I think there is some confusion because some people this Locks of Love is for cancer patients. I think some wigs go to cancer patients but it was originally formed to help people with alopecia (one of our adult acquaintances has alopecia).

 

I did some research into Locks of Love before my daughter donated her ponytail. They do sell a fair percentage of the hair they receiver, but it is the hair that that won't work for making high quality wigs. Selling the hair helps fund the wig-making process, which is very expensive. Their organization is not about making wigs for cancer patients because that baldness is temporary, so an expensive, real-hair hairpiece would not be the best, most cost-effective solution. It is exclusively for people with long-term hair loss, such as alopecia.

 

My BIL has alopecia and he had a very difficult childhood as a result. Back then, there was less acceptance about these kinds of things. This is an issue close to my heart, knowing how he suffered, not just at the hands of his peers, but at the hands of his clueless parents who made him undergo tons of painful, ineffective treatments rather than teach him that he was loved, hair or no hair.

 

ETA: Back to the OP, that person was rude. Hair is personal space and touching it is more intimate than touching one's arm. I would step in and teach my daughter to stand up for herself.

 

Oh, and about the hair being used for hair extensions - it is highly unlikely. If it has been rejected by locks of love, it will likely not work for hair extensions either.

Edited January 8, 2010 by dirty ethel rackham

[Peela]

Wow, I would develop bristles very quickly at that kind of behaviour toward me OR my daughter. And I would teach my daughter to protect her personal boundaries, her space. Touching a stranger is not really acceptable anyway, is it? Kids need to feel that their body is theirs, and just because they are a child doesn't make it ok for a stranger to touch them.

I think your boundaries need some firming up- people are sensing you and/or your daughter won't do anything, so they walk right into her personal space, both physically and verbally. Sometimes it gets getting annoyed, even angry, to get the power to say no, to draw a line, and to just not tolerate that sort of rudeness- no matter how well intended.

[2cents]

This discussion reminds me of when I was pregnant and working. I had people coming up to me, touching my stomach all the time. It was so strange and uncomfortable for me. The oddest thing was a gal I didn't get along with who came up to me and told me outright that she didn't want to talk to me and proceeded to have a conversation with my 'stomach'....not kidding! She was telling the bump how she didn't like me but that was not the baby bump's fault and she would talk to it instead. Fortunately we didn't run into each other that often and surprisingly we started to get along. I guess the baby was like a mediator? :lol: Why do people take these kinds of liberties???

 

I would start making it real clear to these people that they need to stop messing with your daughter's hair and stop nagging her about Locks of Love. :)

[mysticamethyst]

Long beautiful locks are like a pretty pregger tummy, some feel they just have to touch it. It would creep me out to the next level to have complete strangers come and touch my belly and then say for luck. LOL, towards the end of my last pg some poor soul rubbed my belly then proceeded to get a firm talking to on how he would feel if I firmly and abruptly touched a part of his body without permission, I was only half joking. No one should be touching her hair or telling her what to do with it, and for those that tell her otherwise, myob. I'm sure you will get better advice than mine, and I hope some of it works.

[ConnieB]

Arg! I hate the Locks of Love thing. Much of the hair is sold, anyway - while they use the money to help, it's not like your hair is likely to be used for a wig for an actual needy child. (Edited to add: It is more like to become hair extensions for rich people.) You might as well keep your hair and just send money. Besides, who are they to insist you *must* support a specific charity? Are they, themselves, supporting Locks of Love?

 

For the people who repeated are asking why she doesn't donate her hair to Locks for Love, I'd find proof of what forty-two wrote, print it out, and give it to them with the polite but firm comment that I'm not going to donate my hair so that Kate Goesslin can have hair extensions! And then the next time they touch my hair, I'd also say "Excuse me! That's MY hair, please leave it alone". If it persists, I would make a harrassment report to the college....because touching someone when they've asked you to stop is harrassment. Hair is just as personal as someone touching my bre*st would be.

 

I love being pregnant...but I absolutely hate complete strangers touching my bulging belly. And I have been more vocal on occasions than I should have, but heavens people, would you like me to rub and carress your beer belly?

 

I know your daughter probably doesn't want to confront these people, but she must stand up for herself....and as a parent I'd want to help her learn how to do so in a way that is comfortable for her but still forceful enough to stop people.....or today it's her hair and tomorrow it's what? There is no difference between this manhandler and a bully, IMHO.

[DesertDweller]

My dd had long hair for a very long time. It was down to the top of her thighs. She got a lot of comments about donating it, not so much with the touching.

 

Locks of Love came up alot. It was kind of like a badge of honor for people to tell her how they use to have long hair, but they had donated theirs. Of course, the next question would be if she was going to be donating her hair at some point. After a while, I think dd would just roll her eyes and nod.

 

She and I discussed it, because, quite frankly, it was annoying. Usually she would just tell them that she had long hair because she wanted long hair and she didn't have plans to get it cut.

[Holly IN]

T?

 

And, to make matters worse, many, many of these people then say, "So, when are you going to give your hair to Locks of Love? That is why you're growing it out, right?"

 

Ummm, NO. DD is not giving her hair to anyone. Not that we have a problem with those that choose to do so, but that is their choice. Her choice is that her hair is her hair.

 

People to not take nicely to this. She has had several people, just recently, who badger her and tell her how selfish she is being and that she "will" get her hair cut and give it to Locks of Love. These people are some of the students that attend the cc where she is currently taking classes, as well as adults in our town.

 

 

 

Rant over. Thanks.

 

Same problem here. My dd hair is just above her hips. She gets badgered a lot to give her hair to lockets of love. She cries everytime she gets badgered. It is NOT selfish!!! Her long hair is a gift from God and He says it is her glory according to scripture. I also wish people would just leave her alone and shut up.

 

I am sorry she is dealing with this. Perhaps she needs to voice her stance??

 

Not sure but in the same boat as you are.

 

HOlly

[forty-two]

For the people who repeated are asking why she doesn't donate her hair to Locks for Love, I'd find proof of what forty-two wrote, print it out, and give it to them with the polite but firm comment that I'm not going to donate my hair so that Kate Goesslin can have hair extensions!

 

Here is an article from the NYT discussing donating hair:

As much as 80 percent of the hair donated to Locks of Love, the best known of the charities, is unusable for its wigs, the group says. Many people are unaware of the hair donation guidelines and send in hair that is gray, wet or moldy, too short, or too processed, some of which is immediately thrown away. Even hair that survives the winnowing may not go to the gravely ill, but may be sold to help pay for charities’ organizational costs.

So I probably overstated things a bit. It's not really that Locks of Love is an unworthy charity (although it would be a good idea to see how much their organizational costs are), just that hair donation isn't as desperately needed as people think it is. There are more than enough people donating as it is - there is simply no need to pressure unwilling people to cut their hair.

[ConnieB]

Here is an article from the NYT discussing donating hair:

So I probably overstated things a bit. It's not really that Locks of Love is an unworthy charity (although it would be a good idea to see how much their organizational costs are), just that hair donation isn't as desperately needed as people think it is. There are more than enough people donating as it is - there is simply no need to pressure unwilling people to cut their hair.

 

Well, it's still the same end result....so instead of the snarky Kate Goesslin comment maybe let them know that if they are that concerned with the Locks for Love charity it appears that cash donations do just as much (or probably more because there is no "winnowing" of cash donations to take up staff time, lol). Thus, the hair touchers fascinated by long hair because they presumably have short hair can do just as much good for the charity of THEIR choice rather than solicit help from those who do not share that choice.

 

Really, it all comes down to it's your daughters hair and they need to back off. Comments are annoying but touching can be construed as harrassment especially if it continues after they are asked to stop.

[Greta]

Katia, thanks for bringing this up. My dd also has long hair (waist-length and growing), so this is something I want to be aware of. I think it is so important to teach girls to stand up for their personal space and to have firm and healthy boundaries where their bodies are concerned. So I need to be more aware of this. I don't remember anyone touching her hair uninvited, but I just asked her about it, and she said that people have! And that she doesn't like it! :eek: So obviously I need to be more observant, and ready to switch into Mama Bear mode when it happens. I'll also teach her some things she can say and do, as mentioned here.

 

One time, some did ask *me* if I was planning on cutting *her* hair to donate it to Locks of Love. The question really stunned and baffled me, and in those circumstances I can't seem to find words. So all that came out was a very flat "No." And probably an expression on my face of utter confusion. Maybe that was the best response I could have given, though. ;) Later it occurred to me that if I had wanted to be snarky I could have started bugging her about donating all that "extra" blood she was carrying around, but I never think of these things until it's too late! And I would reserve the snarkiness only for someone who was really persistent and annoying about it anyway. This person dropped the discussion, so I consider that a success.

 

Anyway, thanks for the OP and the replies. Interesting discussion.