Okay, moms what do you think about this situation?

[FO4UR]

Ahh...but according to the new info given by the OP, the bus driver WAS trying to get to a bathroom break--he took a wrong exit and got held up in a traffic jam. As soon as he found a place for them to take a break, they were going to.

 

The boys preempted the bus driver, didn't wait until they got past the traffic, and peed in the bottle.

 

And they (or other boys) were being rowdy. This adds a whole 'nuther side to the equation.

 

 

I missed the updates - sorry.

 

Still, the boy crying b/c he had to pee probably couldn't physically wait, traffic jam or not. The yp should have had some compassion and common sense here. HE should have took charge, had the girls move up, had two youth boys hold the blanket and made sure they turned their heads...giving the boys as much dignity as possible peeing on a bus.

 

Had the yp taken charge, the boys would likely not have gotten so "rowdy."

 

My dh has been a yp for years of our marriage...I can pretty much imagine how it all went down. The parents + yp + pastor + a deacon needs to sit down and gather all the facts and see what should happen from there.

[LibraryLover]

Hold on! I have some new information. The bus driver did not say no to going to the bathroom. There was a scheduled stop and he missed the exit, ended up on a totally wrong highway, jammed with traffic. He couldn't stop.

 

Now, the punishment and the way the kids were treated was wrong. I'm hearing that it was not 30 minutes - my son just felt it was. I need to find out more information and parents are ON this. The driver mad a mistake and couldn't pullover and leadership screwed up in discipline - big time.

 

 

Interesting development. I'm glad the driver wasn't not taking them to the bathroom. I think the boys were creative, as their bladders don't know from a traffic jam. I don't think punishment was needed here. I don't get the whole punishment thing. Just get to the dang bathroom.

[johnandtinagilbert]

It sounds like some frustrated adults overreacted. I'd be frustrated by the situation at hand (teens, tired from camp, missed exit), but that would not make it right for me to freak out.

 

I thought the boys handled the situation well.

 

I'd be FlAmIn' HOT MAD! I would hope a pastor could have handled this situation much better. I'd have a hard time respecting or trusting those in authority.

 

All that for a little urine! What a terrible shame.

[Plucky]

Interesting development. I'm glad the driver wasn't not taking them to the bathroom. I think the boys were creative, as their bladders don't know from a traffic jam. I don't think punishment was needed here. I don't get the whole punishment thing. Just get to the dang bathroom.

Yep. Nearly every parent I've spoke to agrees the boys were respectful (we aren't gossiping but trying to find out what happened). They asked the girls to move and the girls understood. They were trying very hard to be discreet. I think the yp may be too young and has a lot to learn.

[Plucky]

It sounds like some frustrated adults overreacted. I'd be frustrated by the situation at hand (teens, tired from camp, missed exit), but that would not make it right for me to freak out.

 

I thought the boys handled the situation well.

 

I'd be FlAmIn' HOT MAD! I would hope a pastor could have handled this situation much better. I'd have a hard time respecting or trusting those in authority.

 

All that for a little urine! What a terrible shame.

 

Yep. :iagree:

[JennifersLost]

Just read the OP. Haven't read anyone else's post.

 

My child and my family would never, EVER have anything to do with this church or group again. EVER.

 

That is sick. That bus driver and youth pastor should be banned from working or being around children ever again.

 

Those boys (and girls) should be given awards for kindness, consideration and pluckiness in the face of adversity. If I had been on that bus as a child as all of that unfolded I would have been absolutely sick and traumatized and would not have gotten over it for a long, long time.j

 

What the heck were those people thinking?

 

Make a HUGE stink over this!!!!

[maryhob]

I think the boys handled it as best as they could if it was a choice between that or peeing in their pants. It may be that the Youth Pastor had the wrong idea about what happened and was stressed. I guess you will have to access his behavior at a meeting. Maybe he's a power hungry nut or just someone who misunderstood the urgency of the situation + stress + feeling that he was needing to dole out punishment for a perceived offense to the girls. 1/2 hour of jumping jacks in the hot sun seems like he has some military style idea as to how to handle disipline. Too many movies perhaps.

[Elizabeth Conley]

Just because people are serious Bible thumpers doesn't mean they have a place in youth ministry. There are several sanctimonious prigs in my community whom I'd never trust with my children. They're narcissistic crazy-clucks with no discernment, no mercy and no charity.

 

The youth pastor needs to show that he understands what was wrong with his over the top "discipline". He was abusive. He also needs to apologize to the kids and promise to think and empathize before he administers discipline in the future.

 

Otherwise, it's time to find a youth ministry with a more mature leadership team.

[Blessedfamily]

Hold on! I have some new information. The bus driver did not say no to going to the bathroom. There was a scheduled stop and he missed the exit, ended up on a totally wrong highway, jammed with traffic. He couldn't stop.

 

Now, the punishment and the way the kids were treated was wrong. I'm hearing that it was not 30 minutes - my son just felt it was. I need to find out more information and parents are ON this. The driver mad a mistake and couldn't pullover and leadership screwed up in discipline - big time.

 

That's exactly why I posted to get the adults' side of things before responding, and I still think the church pastor needs to put on his *diplomat* robe here. He needs to get all sides together and address everyone's concerns.

[Irene Lynn]

I have a sensitive daughter. She would never want to do anything else with this group, if she had been on the bus. She would probably have been in tears at the way the boy were humiliated. She would not have thought anything about the use of the bottle. She has had to resort to that on family trips on rare occassions. Even if the boys got a little carried away, it wouldn't have bothered her or me, if they were trying to be covered. She wouldn't have been thrilled about the bottle trick, but she would have understood that a WHOLE lot more than the punishment of the boys AND the forced apology. She wouldn't trust the leaders after a trick like that.

[JudoMom]

I would let the two adults give their side of it first. Then I would let them know EXACTLY how I feel. I think the church pastor's going to have to intervene quickly here.

 

:iagree:

[dirty ethel rackham]

I agree!!!! These people have no business being around children/teens. How did this experience bring these kids closer to God? Isn't that the point of the camp? I've met drill seargents who were more compassionate than that.

 

My kids would have no further contact with anyone who felt that this was appropriate.

[DawnM]

Never mind.....didn't get to the update.....

[KingM]

It sounds like you're doing the right thing in collecting all the facts. I don't think things went wrong until it was decided to discipline the kids. The bus driver made a simple mistake, the kids needed to take care of the situation or wet themselves, which would have been a humiliation they never would have lived down.

 

My guess is that some of the parties involved didn't understand/believe that the boys were taking care of an emergency situation. Kids can and do behave in totally inappropriate ways at the back of buses. And, having been a youth leader, I can tell you that it can get very stressful to deal with a bunch of teenagers.

 

So, I think if you go in there with a cool head, you can be a peacemaker in all of this. I don't think this is a situation where heads should roll, but it should definitely be used as a learning experience.

[katilac]

Even with the new info, it sounds like this was handled wrong all around.

 

Granted that the bus driver made a mistake, and was then trying to get to a bathroom, it's very plausible to me that some of the kids had to go NOW. They already needed to go, and presumably they were now stuck in traffic.

 

What could have been done? Well, the bus driver not only pulled over but the boys were lined up doing exercises. Sounds like he could have pulled over for them to use the bathroom as well; they're boys, after all. With a blanket, the girls could have managed also, had they needed to.

 

If I'm driving kids around, mine and/or others, and they ask for the restroom when none is around, I ask, "How bad is it?" and explain what they'll have to do. Very few kids who aren't desparate have any great desire to pee on the side of the road, kwim?

 

I also think that forcing all of the boys to call their parents was a shaming action that served no other purpose. Not all of the boys were guilty, everyone was upset, and they would have been back soon enough - - why take a bad situation and make it worse? Why do the kids have to 'confess' on a moving bus, surrounded by their peers?

 

It will be hard to figure out exactly what happened, I'm sure, but it seems clear that the entire situation was handled poorly.

[soupkidsmom]

Whew... I would have to protest to the YP's behavior...they could stop to do jumping jacks but not allow them to go to the bathroom??? Inappropriate. The boys were discreet, and respectable.

[MariannNOVA]

was the bus driver/church leader the only adult on the bus? If so, it would seem to me that another adult/chaperone most certainly should have been on the bus -- the individual driving the bus has more than enough to do without having to worry about keeping the kids under control.

 

The YP should have been on the bus, IMO.

[Laurie4b]

Yep. Nearly every parent I've spoke to agrees the boys were respectful (we aren't gossiping but trying to find out what happened). They asked the girls to move and the girls understood. They were trying very hard to be discreet. I think the yp may be too young and has a lot to learn.

 

I've thought about this since last night and I think

 

1) If the church doesn't have discipline policies written out this needs to happen ASAP. If anything had happened to the boys (deyhydration, heat stroke, etc.) the church would have been liable, not just the yp, if the church does not have policies.

 

2)Right now, your church is in a precarious legal position going forward because you now know full well that he does not always exercise good judgment. Should another situation arise in which he exercises poor judgment and a kid is harmed--whether psychologically (think forcing a teenaged boy into a position that brings him to tears) or physically, you will be totally, fully liable legally and morally. The church must take this very seriously, putting in place safeguards and supervision.

 

3) The YP should be on probation at best because he's shown egregiously poor judgment. Probation could be a combination of education on teenaged development, appropriate discipline, etc. and a mentor (supervisor) present at all times who has the authority to override him. A public apology is necessary to overcome the public punishment meted out. I think this is a good time to evaluate whether there are other signs pointing to a punitive/authoritarian approach because it might be that he is not in the right field and should be let go for everyone's benefit.

 

The church will be torn between protecting this youth pastor and protecting teenaged kids. Some may bring up "forgiveness" as a reason to gloss over what the yp did.

[mommaduck]

I have no words...only because anything I have to say at the moment would not be nice. whatsoever.

 

Things need to be addressed and dealt with. Until then I would not have anything to do with those people (YP, bus driver).

 

The boys handled things the best they could with the circumstances dealt to them. Peeing in a bottle beats wetting oneself. The boys and girls were both respectful of each other and the situation.

[justamouse]

o_0

 

I am FURIOUS on behalf of those boys. And then they were punished for doing what they had to do?

 

This:

 

I've thought about this since last night and I think

 

1) If the church doesn't have discipline policies written out this needs to happen ASAP. If anything had happened to the boys (deyhydration, heat stroke, etc.) the church would have been liable, not just the yp, if the church does not have policies.

 

2)Right now, your church is in a precarious legal position going forward because you now know full well that he does not always exercise good judgment. Should another situation arise in which he exercises poor judgment and a kid is harmed--whether psychologically (think forcing a teenaged boy into a position that brings him to tears) or physically, you will be totally, fully liable legally and morally. The church must take this very seriously, putting in place safeguards and supervision.

 

3) The YP should be on probation at best because he's shown egregiously poor judgment. Probation could be a combination of education on teenaged development, appropriate discipline, etc. and a mentor (supervisor) present at all times who has the authority to override him. A public apology is necessary to overcome the public punishment meted out. I think this is a good time to evaluate whether there are other signs pointing to a punitive/authoritarian approach because it might be that he is not in the right field and should be let go for everyone's benefit.

 

The church will be torn between protecting this youth pastor and protecting teenaged kids. Some may bring up "forgiveness" as a reason to gloss over what the yp did.

 

 

And frankly, I think the YP should be FIRED. Lack of compassion much?

[2cents]

What they did to those boys was completely inappropriate and abusive. The physical abuse (forcing them to hold it when they were clearly desperate) is abuse and the jumping jacks in the hot sun and forced apologies was dangerous and humiliating. I can't understand why the chaperones didn't object???!! Isn't that what a chaperone does?! Honestly, if my son was handled in this manner I would be down there raising the roof and if there weren't apologies and sincere admissions of wrongdoing then I would consider filing a police report. That is outrageous.

[Laurie4b]

Sorry.Multiple posts.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Laurie4b

[Laurie4b]

Sorry. Multiple posts

Edited August 17, 2009 by Laurie4b

[phathui5]

I think the youth pastor ought to be suspended, have all of the children and chaperones interviewed. Maybe have him take some courses on health and/or child development. The length of time they were forced to wait was inappropriate, the punishment and treatment they received was completely off-base.

[Garga]

You really need to talk to the leaders. We simply do not have all the facts and we're all jumping to conclusions.

 

For example: (Track with me here...) How many of us have seen our kids in the middle of homeschooling, goofing off, having bad attitudes and decided they needed a little recess?

 

Now, I have NO idea what the yp was thinking, but perhaps there was a situation brewing and he decided that everyone needed to get rid of some physical pent-up energy. They had been sitting on a bus for 3 hours after all.

 

I'm totally making up what he might have been thinking, but maybe he just wanted them to let off steam. Until BOTH sides of the story come out, we're all getting hot-headed and there could be a very simple explanation for everything. So, perhaps he saw that everyone needed a physical break (particularly the boys) and said 'Ok boys! Get out and move around--let's do jumping jacks! Everybody--go!' and they did the jumping jacks.

 

(follow this train of thought...) There's a commercial on some science (I think) tv station that shows a couple rowing on a boat and a voice over says, 'On August 8th, Carol and Jack went boating. Forensic evidence proves that Carol fell off the boat and died of an accident."

 

Then they replay the same scene of the couple but the voice over changes, "On August 8th, Carol and Jack went boating. Forensic evidence proves that Carol was pushed off the boat and was murdered." And the show is going to be about how forensics can seem to prove two entirely different scenarios.

 

I really hope the OP gets back to us with a full picture of the facts. Because at first it seemed like the bus driver and yp were monsters who were terrorizing and abusing children. But after just a couple more pieces of info, it seems more like the boys were fooling around and the bus driver was trying to get to the bathroom and the yp was trying to stop the boys from getting too rowdy.

 

No need to vilify the bus driver and yp without even hearing their side. Innocent until proven guilty after all. We've raked these men over the coals in this thread and we don't even know them or fully understand what happened.

[MistyJ]

Whenever we entrust our children to someone else's care, we leave ourselves open to the possibility that those in charge will make decisions with which we disagree.

 

I think the boys handled it fine. On road trips my son BEGS to pee in a bottle....I think boys are inclined to do things that seem inappropriate to the opposite sex.

 

It seems to me that both sides are overreacting. I would let the bus driver and YP know how you feel, with love, and drop it. I would commiserate with your son, but tell him that's the way the cookie crumbles when he is in someone else's care.

 

As long as he is not in moral or mortal danger, I expect my son to accept other adults' rules and judgement when in their care.

Edited August 17, 2009 by MistyJ
Ending sentence with preposition.

[Plucky]

You really need to talk to the leaders. We simply do not have all the facts and we're all jumping to conclusions.

 

For example: (Track with me here...) How many of us have seen our kids in the middle of homeschooling, goofing off, having bad attitudes and decided they needed a little recess?

 

Now, I have NO idea what the yp was thinking, but perhaps there was a situation brewing and he decided that everyone needed to get rid of some physical pent-up energy. They had been sitting on a bus for 3 hours after all.

 

I'm totally making up what he might have been thinking, but maybe he just wanted them to let off steam. Until BOTH sides of the story come out, we're all getting hot-headed and there could be a very simple explanation for everything. So, perhaps he saw that everyone needed a physical break (particularly the boys) and said 'Ok boys! Get out and move around--let's do jumping jacks! Everybody--go!' and they did the jumping jacks.

 

(follow this train of thought...) There's a commercial on some science (I think) tv station that shows a couple rowing on a boat and a voice over says, 'On August 8th, Carol and Jack went boating. Forensic evidence proves that Carol fell off the boat and died of an accident."

 

Then they replay the same scene of the couple but the voice over changes, "On August 8th, Carol and Jack went boating. Forensic evidence proves that Carol was pushed off the boat and was murdered." And the show is going to be about how forensics can seem to prove two entirely different scenarios.

 

I really hope the OP gets back to us with a full picture of the facts. Because at first it seemed like the bus driver and yp were monsters who were terrorizing and abusing children. But after just a couple more pieces of info, it seems more like the boys were fooling around and the bus driver was trying to get to the bathroom and the yp was trying to stop the boys from getting too rowdy.

 

No need to vilify the bus driver and yp without even hearing their side. Innocent until proven guilty after all. We've raked these men over the coals in this thread and we don't even know them or fully understand what happened.

 

I agree with you. I need more facts. I will be talking to the yp this afternoon. I'll will update this post it may just take a while to figure things out. The kids haven't even been back 24 hours.

[katilac]

You really need to talk to the leaders. We simply do not have all the facts and we're all jumping to conclusions.

 

For example: (Track with me here...) How many of us have seen our kids in the middle of homeschooling, goofing off, having bad attitudes and decided they needed a little recess?

 

Now, I have NO idea what the yp was thinking, but perhaps there was a situation brewing and he decided that everyone needed to get rid of some physical pent-up energy. They had been sitting on a bus for 3 hours after all.

 

I'm totally making up what he might have been thinking, but maybe he just wanted them to let off steam. Until BOTH sides of the story come out, we're all getting hot-headed and there could be a very simple explanation for everything. So, perhaps he saw that everyone needed a physical break (particularly the boys) and said 'Ok boys! Get out and move around--let's do jumping jacks! Everybody--go!' and they did the jumping jacks.

 

 

 

The fact that they made all the boys call their parents to tell them about it (when they were quite close to home) makes me doubt very much that this wasn't done in a punitive manner. Plus the fact that they were on the road, *g*, not the best place to pull over and have exercise time!

 

I'd want to hear the whole story, of course, but there's enough evidence (for me) that bad decisions were made.

[tricia]

What's this. Boot camp? Totally unacceptable behavior on the part of the YP in my opinion.

[Scuff]

Thank you all. I will be addressing this in the next couple of days when I'm calmer.

 

Handle it now! :) They need to understand how serious this was.

[Scuff]

Hold on! I have some new information. The bus driver did not say no to going to the bathroom. There was a scheduled stop and he missed the exit, ended up on a totally wrong highway, jammed with traffic. He couldn't stop.

 

Now, the punishment and the way the kids were treated was wrong. I'm hearing that it was not 30 minutes - my son just felt it was. I need to find out more information and parents are ON this. The driver mad a mistake and couldn't pullover and leadership screwed up in discipline - big time.

 

 

that's a little better

[LizzyBee]

I am usually one to try to understand another person's perspective and make peace. But I would leave the church over this and I'd make sure the pastor and youth pastor know why. The YP's behavior was harsh and abusive and I would never leave my kids in his charge again.

 

ETA: I just saw the update. Sounds like mistakes were made, but perhaps not quite as bad as originally thought. I still agree with the previous posters who said the boys found a good solution to a problem and should not have been punished for it.

Edited August 17, 2009 by LizzyBee

[Peek a Boo]

The fact that they made all the boys call their parents to tell them about it (when they were quite close to home) makes me doubt very much that this wasn't done in a punitive manner. Plus the fact that they were on the road, *g*, not the best place to pull over and have exercise time!

 

I'd want to hear the whole story, of course, but there's enough evidence (for me) that bad decisions were made.

 

yup.

 

dh is always telling me that if i have a flat tire, drive it all the way to an exit, cuz it's easier to replace a rim than people.

[Plucky]

Update

 

I talked to the yp and I feel much better. I listened to the yp’s account of what happened and he apologized profusely for punishing the boys incorrectly and in anger. There are policies in place normally for discipline, but he took matters into his own hands and deeply regrets it. He was upset originally about the urinating in bottles but he was even more angry because apparently the kids in the back of the bus were disobeying and talking back to the female leaders. He thought that the other boys in the bus should have told the boys to knock it off (my son was in the front happily chatting w/friends and oblivious). He agreed he shouldn’t have punished everyone and especially in that manner. He should have got them to a bathroom and will definitely make sure bathroom breaks are a priority. The two boys that had to go to the bathroom have admitted to drinking multiple huge sodas at McDonald’s prior to leaving even after being warned a bathroom break wouldn’t be for a couple hours (it was missed on accident).

 

He regrets there were not more male leaders on the bus, but the men were able to drive the vans and the females were inexperienced drivers of large vans.

 

I listened to his account and asked a few questions and then I told my concerns in a respectable but firm tone. He was very humble, listened, agreed, never defended himself or made excuses. There were no buts in his response to my concerns.

 

After I heard his account I felt better but felt it was important to reiterate these points:

 

1. There needs to be definite discipline policies in place and when things are hazy it is often better to delay discipline until later, including parents in the process – unless someone is in immediate danger.

 

2. That my child is not to apologize to the church body without my being involved in the process. This stands until my child is 18 and an adult.

 

3. Frequent potty breaks are important, even if kids disobey and drink too much. You cannot just avoid the pain of a full bladder.

 

I know there is more and I can’t remember everything. He apologized profusely to me and then asked to speak to my son and apologize to him. He will be calling all the families and apologizing. Yesterday, I thought I would prefer him going before the youth congregation but I actually feel very heard and might not have if it was a public forum without him hearing my concerns first hand.

 

I think this has turned into a very teachable moment for the teens and especially my son. I prepared my son for the fact that sometimes people sweep things under the rug because it is too painful to admit they are wrong or they think it shows weakness, but really the more mature walk in Christ is to admit when we are wrong and apologize. There was no way to know how this would go. Quite a few parents did want to be loving and forgiving without following through, that is why I felt I had to speak up. So the yp was very apologetic and told my ds what he was apologizing for. My ds has that much more respect for the yp because of it.

 

I know some here will think I’m being naïve or that the yp can’t be trusted at all. I don’t know what to tell you except I heard the regret and humbleness in this man’s voice. I think it has been a very good learning experience for all of us and am thankful for the way it has been resolved.

[Terabith]

And while your son may not have been timing things, they WERE 30 minutes late arriving, which would make me think it was at least in that ball park of time.

 

Even the having all the boys call their parents.......The whole thing is just SOOO shaming!

 

Does your son want to go back to youth group activities after that? I'm having a hard time imagining a situation in which many kids would want to put themselves under the oversight of this director.

[Plucky]

And while your son may not have been timing things, they WERE 30 minutes late arriving, which would make me think it was at least in that ball park of time.

 

Even the having all the boys call their parents.......The whole thing is just SOOO shaming!

 

Does your son want to go back to youth group activities after that? I'm having a hard time imagining a situation in which many kids would want to put themselves under the oversight of this director.

 

Yes, my son wants to go back. He loves his youth group and the yp. Don't forget to read my update.

[Audrey]

Well, people make mistakes. It sounds like he realised he made one. It's good that he's going to call all the parents, but I think he owes the boys a personal apology, not just a proxy one through you.

 

ETA: I mean all the boys. I realise he already apologised to your boy.

[Plucky]

Well, people make mistakes. It sounds like he realised he made one. It's good that he's going to call all the parents, but I think he owes the boys a personal apology, not just a proxy one through you.

 

ETA: I mean all the boys. I realise he already apologised to your boy.

 

He's going to apologize to all the parents and all the boys. All of them.

[Audrey]

That's good. I hope the others accept his apology as well. Like I said... people make mistakes.

[Plucky]

That's good. I hope the others accept his apology as well. Like I said... people make mistakes.

 

 

They do. I'm very thankful tonight that I am not the one ultimately responsible for 75 teenagers on a week long church camp. :D

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'm glad you got the full story and he shows humble regret.

 

Even so, I'd be very mindful of his handling of all things since he remains in an authoritative position over your son. Even in his humility, I find his behavior suspect enough to be guarded and much more watchful than before, although would offer forgiveness and encouragement.

 

I know it's hard to go with all the kids, all the time, but this really does reinforce my view that if dh or I can't go, neither can dc. it's just so hard to trust anyone with out precious cargo, even when the cargo is in middle school.

 

As for the 2 boys in the back of the bus...isn't that how it always is?! Glad to know your ds was far away from them.

[Plucky]

I'm glad you got the full story and he shows humble regret.

 

Even so, I'd be very mindful of his handling of all things since he remains in an authoritative position over your son. Even in his humility, I find his behavior suspect enough to be guarded and much more watchful than before, although would offer forgiveness and encouragement.

 

I know it's hard to go with all the kids, all the time, but this really does reinforce my view that if dh or I can't go, neither can dc. it's just so hard to trust anyone with out precious cargo, even when the cargo is in middle school.

 

As for the 2 boys in the back of the bus...isn't that how it always is?! Glad to know your ds was far away from them.

 

 

You make good points. There will be plenty of time between now and the next offered camp to watch behavior, too. And yes, the back of the bus kids seem to be the rowdiest from my memory, too. :lol:

[alexfam]

I think the boys handled themselves in a very mature manner. Not only should the Bus driver have to appoligize to all the parents the YP should do the same thing. I probably would also have a talk with the paster about the situation.

[Laurie4b]

Update

 

I talked to the yp and I feel much better. I listened to the yp’s account of what happened and he apologized profusely for punishing the boys incorrectly and in anger. There are policies in place normally for discipline, but he took matters into his own hands and deeply regrets it. He was upset originally about the urinating in bottles but he was even more angry because apparently the kids in the back of the bus were disobeying and talking back to the female leaders. He thought that the other boys in the bus should have told the boys to knock it off (my son was in the front happily chatting w/friends and oblivious). He agreed he shouldn’t have punished everyone and especially in that manner. He should have got them to a bathroom and will definitely make sure bathroom breaks are a priority. The two boys that had to go to the bathroom have admitted to drinking multiple huge sodas at McDonald’s prior to leaving even after being warned a bathroom break wouldn’t be for a couple hours (it was missed on accident).

 

He regrets there were not more male leaders on the bus, but the men were able to drive the vans and the females were inexperienced drivers of large vans.

 

I listened to his account and asked a few questions and then I told my concerns in a respectable but firm tone. He was very humble, listened, agreed, never defended himself or made excuses. There were no buts in his response to my concerns.

 

After I heard his account I felt better but felt it was important to reiterate these points:

 

1. There needs to be definite discipline policies in place and when things are hazy it is often better to delay discipline until later, including parents in the process – unless someone is in immediate danger.

 

2. That my child is not to apologize to the church body without my being involved in the process. This stands until my child is 18 and an adult.

 

3. Frequent potty breaks are important, even if kids disobey and drink too much. You cannot just avoid the pain of a full bladder.

 

I know there is more and I can’t remember everything. He apologized profusely to me and then asked to speak to my son and apologize to him. He will be calling all the families and apologizing. Yesterday, I thought I would prefer him going before the youth congregation but I actually feel very heard and might not have if it was a public forum without him hearing my concerns first hand.

 

I think this has turned into a very teachable moment for the teens and especially my son. I prepared my son for the fact that sometimes people sweep things under the rug because it is too painful to admit they are wrong or they think it shows weakness, but really the more mature walk in Christ is to admit when we are wrong and apologize. There was no way to know how this would go. Quite a few parents did want to be loving and forgiving without following through, that is why I felt I had to speak up. So the yp was very apologetic and told my ds what he was apologizing for. My ds has that much more respect for the yp because of it.

 

I know some here will think I’m being naïve or that the yp can’t be trusted at all. I don’t know what to tell you except I heard the regret and humbleness in this man’s voice. I think it has been a very good learning experience for all of us and am thankful for the way it has been resolved.

 

I think it's a great start that he is humble and willing to apologize. I would still be wanting the church authorities to take a look at this and to increase the level of his supervision for a period of time. Just like when my child apologizes when he does something wrong, that doesn't eliminate all consequences. And the kids of the church need to be protected. Shaming is very much a red flag. And I'm still thinking the jumping jacks in the hot sun ran a physical risk. Like I said, an apology to all is a good start: submission to greater levels of supervision (ie less trust) for a while would be a good finish.

[Aggie]

I've hesitated to post on this thread for a couple of reasons. More details being the main one. Even now we don't know the extent to which the kids were acting up, nor what grief the yp had been through earlier in the week.

 

It won't be a popular post, either.

 

It seems I'm the only parent here who has punished the whole crew, in anger, and without knowing all the details. I've learned from my mistakes, but I'm glad no one called for my head on a platter.

 

Having taught in middle school for several years, I'd be willing to bet that there were some unparented boys on that bus. Add that to (an apparently) quiet woman chaperone, I just hope the behavior and back-talking wasn't as bad as I would imagine it could be.

 

As for the phone calls...what a great idea! Much better for a mom to know ahead of time the bus will be late, and why, than for her to sit in the parking lot with younger kids waiting for 30 more minutes. There was no shame in making that call unless it was deserved, imo.

 

The yp probably had heard from parents, or remembers from his youth, how physical exertion is good for teen boys. I've heard it right here on this board. Boys who weren't minding their manners, had quite a bit of caffeine and sugar in their systems, and were far from home. I doubt a bit of exercise in the heat was traumatic. FWIW, the teens here are doing two-a-days and many of them haul hay in between. No casualties so far.

 

I can't say I'd be thrilled that my son was punished just because he happened to be there. So what? Put on your jock strap and deal with it. I also can't say he would have been completely innocent, either. But I don't understand the fury over this. I can't imagine a group prayer and hug being effective in this situation, and if it were my son acting like an idiot, I would expect someone to call him on it. In the words of the wise philosopher, Katherine B, "Life ain't fair...."

 

Next time I'm driving my precious children somewhere and see a church bus, I'll be praying that someone on that bus has control over any kids on the bus so the driver is free to do his job safely, thus keeping my kids safer.

 

Ok, putting on my flame-retardant suit now. :)

 

BTW...did any dads post on this thread? I'll have to re-read it to see what their thoughts are. I know what my dh would say.....

[chaik76]

I can't say I'd be thrilled that my son was punished just because he happened to be there. So what? Put on your jock strap and deal with it. I also can't say he would have been completely innocent, either. But I don't understand the fury over this. I can't imagine a group prayer and hug being effective in this situation, and if it were my son acting like an idiot, I would expect someone to call him on it. In the words of the wise philosopher, Katherine B, "Life ain't fair...."

 

 

 

Ok, putting on my flame-retardant suit now. :)

 

BTW...did any dads post on this thread? I'll have to re-read it to see what their thoughts are. I know what my dh would say.....

Well...my dh would have been infuriated. We don't allow our sons to be punished as a "group" if they are not responsible for the misdeed....even in sports (we make that clear before the sport begins, and don't join if group punishment is part of the sport).

 

I don't want my kids to have to put on "their jock strap" and deal...why should they? I don't put up with that...and didn't, even as a child. In group punishments...I just didn't participate, not matter what I was threatened with. And my mom backed me up, as I will back up my kids. I don't believe in nor will I tolerate the punishment of many for the misdeeds of one or a few.

 

One of my duties as a parent is to teach my children to be fair...in order to do that I need to make sure they are treated fairly, and that they don't tolerate unfairness (this does not mean, of course, that they are always treated equally...fair doesn't necessarily mean equal). By allowing such actions as occurred on the bus by the leader to go unquestioned, I would be perpetrating the very thing which I try to teach my children not to do. So for me, it would be imperative that I deal with the problem of the youth leader being irresponsible.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

 

It seems I'm the only parent here who has punished the whole crew, in anger, and without knowing all the details. I've learned from my mistakes, but I'm glad no one called for my head on a platter.

 

I've made mistakes as a parent too. And I've jumped the gun at times and have not gotten the whole story before reacting. But as a parent - unless you have broken laws and gone into abuse - you are directly accountable only to God and your spouse. You also have immediate consequences in the kind of relationship that you cultivate in your children. As a youth pastor, or any kind of leadership role over children, there is a different kind of accountability structure. You are accountable to the church leadership because you are a representative for their church. And you are accountable to each and every parent because they trusted you by delegating authority to you over their children for a period of time.

 

Having taught in middle school for several years, I'd be willing to bet that there were some unparented boys on that bus. Add that to (an apparently) quiet woman chaperone, I just hope the behavior and back-talking wasn't as bad as I would imagine it could be.

 

There may very well have been some unparented boys on that bus. It isn't the role of the yp or any other chaperone to parent them. It is their role to provide an appropriate safe environment for learning and in this case, for travel. That may require some rules and consequences, of course. And going off half-cocked is not "parenting" anyway.

 

As for the phone calls...what a great idea! Much better for a mom to know ahead of time the bus will be late, and why, than for her to sit in the parking lot with younger kids waiting for 30 more minutes. There was no shame in making that call unless it was deserved, imo.

 

If the call had simply been to inform the parent that they would be late, that would be true.

 

The yp probably had heard from parents, or remembers from his youth, how physical exertion is good for teen boys. I've heard it right here on this board. Boys who weren't minding their manners, had quite a bit of caffeine and sugar in their systems, and were far from home. I doubt a bit of exercise in the heat was traumatic. FWIW, the teens here are doing two-a-days and many of them haul hay in between. No casualties so far.

 

People were not shocked at the requirement of physcal exercise per se but at requiring it without first allowing the boys to take care of their need for a bathroom. And for requiring it for punitive reasons. The people who have recommended physical exercise for boys at least on this board (that I remember) have recommended it as a way to allow boys to get off steam etc. so that they are able to settle down and do what they need to do. That is not punitive.

 

I can't say I'd be thrilled that my son was punished just because he happened to be there. So what? Put on your jock strap and deal with it. I also can't say he would have been completely innocent, either. But I don't understand the fury over this. I can't imagine a group prayer and hug being effective in this situation, and if it were my son acting like an idiot, I would expect someone to call him on it. In the words of the wise philosopher, Katherine B, "Life ain't fair...."

 

The OPs son was not acting like an idiot and was completely innocent. This was an abuse of power by the youth pastor.

 

Next time I'm driving my precious children somewhere and see a church bus, I'll be praying that someone on that bus has control over any kids on the bus so the driver is free to do his job safely, thus keeping my kids safer.

 

The boys were not out-of-control and there was nothing said about them putting the bus or the passengers on the bus in jeopardy. They asked to use the restrooms, were denied their requests, and took care of the problem in an appropriate way. They probably should have monitored their intake of liquids at the McDonalds but that is childishness.

 

I asked my dh what he thought. He said that a real leader would have acted calmly and rationally instead of over-reacting.

[Holly IN]

Well, people make mistakes. It sounds like he realised he made one. It's good that he's going to call all the parents, but I think he owes the boys a personal apology, not just a proxy one through you.

 

ETA: I mean all the boys. I realise he already apologised to your boy.

 

He should apologize to the girls too!!!

 

This affected them as well.

 

Holly

[Plucky]

I've hesitated to post on this thread for a couple of reasons. More details being the main one. Even now we don't know the extent to which the kids were acting up, nor what grief the yp had been through earlier in the week.

 

It won't be a popular post, either.

 

It seems I'm the only parent here who has punished the whole crew, in anger, and without knowing all the details. I've learned from my mistakes, but I'm glad no one called for my head on a platter.

 

Having taught in middle school for several years, I'd be willing to bet that there were some unparented boys on that bus. Add that to (an apparently) quiet woman chaperone, I just hope the behavior and back-talking wasn't as bad as I would imagine it could be.

 

As for the phone calls...what a great idea! Much better for a mom to know ahead of time the bus will be late, and why, than for her to sit in the parking lot with younger kids waiting for 30 more minutes. There was no shame in making that call unless it was deserved, imo.

 

The yp probably had heard from parents, or remembers from his youth, how physical exertion is good for teen boys. I've heard it right here on this board. Boys who weren't minding their manners, had quite a bit of caffeine and sugar in their systems, and were far from home. I doubt a bit of exercise in the heat was traumatic. FWIW, the teens here are doing two-a-days and many of them haul hay in between. No casualties so far.

 

I can't say I'd be thrilled that my son was punished just because he happened to be there. So what? Put on your jock strap and deal with it. I also can't say he would have been completely innocent, either. But I don't understand the fury over this. I can't imagine a group prayer and hug being effective in this situation, and if it were my son acting like an idiot, I would expect someone to call him on it. In the words of the wise philosopher, Katherine B, "Life ain't fair...."

 

Next time I'm driving my precious children somewhere and see a church bus, I'll be praying that someone on that bus has control over any kids on the bus so the driver is free to do his job safely, thus keeping my kids safer.

 

Ok, putting on my flame-retardant suit now. :)

 

BTW...did any dads post on this thread? I'll have to re-read it to see what their thoughts are. I know what my dh would say.....

 

Oops, I didn't mean to not include dads. I really didn't think through my heading at all. I was kind of stressed.

 

I will say that I feel and the yp feels he punished out of anger. And you know I've done that. The yp isn't the parent and parents are known to do this, but I am sure he felt frustrated. One of the things I've learned when dealing with my kids is that you can delay consequences. In fact, with my teen son, who is wonderful btw, we had incidences during puberty where he was filled with hormones and I was just irrational with anger. Waiting made all the difference. When I didn't wait I screwed it up royally and had to apologize.

 

Relationship with yp is very important and he has to be the example, just like parents. It's a hard job. Anyway, I am happy with the outcome and will remain watchful of the situation.

[skaterbabs]

My biggest beef is that the YP and driver created an EXTREMELY dangerous situation. Children in a moving vehicle not properly seated is just asking for trouble. School buses (which are the most common kind used by churches) are very safe, but ONLY when the passengers are properly seated. At no point should ANYONE get out of their seat and move around, especially in a traffic situation as described.