Can we talk about "fundie baby voice" without getting political?

[prairiewindmomma]

IMO, the kitchen setting/tradwife/soft voice was a targeted move for a variety of reasons.  Some of those are political and racial, and I'm going to put those to the side because I want to keep this apolitical.  I think the reason tradwife as a social media dynamic is trending is because the current world feels chaotic. Many families are financially challenged. Many families are dual income by necessity, not through choice. People feel exhausted by the demands placed upon them at work, at home, etc. (women who work for income also often carry the bulk of the home load).  We see a lot of dumpster fires flaring whenever we turn on the tv set.  The tradwife dynamic harkens to a simpler time (which never truly existed) in which families could get by on one income provided by men, and women were happy and content in their role at home with children.  People want to feel happy, calm, and secure, and they are getting sucked into a genteel aesthetic that really didn't exist (for almost all) in the 1950s. 

[maize]

The 1950s homemaker model was never a reality for any significant percentage of women. My parents were both born in 1950. Both of their mothers worked for significant portions of their childhoods. My maternal grandmother worked as a secretary; my mom was the oldest child and was cared for during the day by one grandmother; her younger sister was cared for by the other grandmother, who lived too far away to drop off and pick up ever day so she just lived at Grandma's house during the workweek and spent weekends with her parents. My dad grew up on a farm, so his mother was busy with everything involved in running both a farm and a household; when all her kids were school-age she went to college to become a nurse and spent the decades until retirement age working professionally. 

[Eos]

44 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s not just living a certain way, it’s advancing an agenda.  They actively try to recruit people to their movement, have podcasts and you tube channels to help support it, all the things.  They also have the ear of important people who are actively trying to roll back womens rights, such as advocating for women to not be allowed to vote and rolling back access to credit, bank accounts and property ownership.  
 I live fairly traditionally but I’m not willing to give up my right to vote or own a bank account.  

Exactly.

[Eos]

5 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

women were happy and content in their role at home with children.  

Or took sedatives if they were not.

[maize]

I did learn something interesting from my aunt recently. She said that grandma (her mom) got a lot off pushback from women in her small farming community over working professionally. It wasn't that other women didn't work; they worked at the gas station, the diner,  the supermarket...but grandma going to college and working as a nurse was viewed negatively. That surprised me because nursing has a long history of being viewed as a feminine profession. I think the community had a negative view of higher education in general though. My grandparents were very pro-education and made sure that all of their kids got college degrees, but my dad never really fit in back in his hometown after getting a degree.

[KungFuPanda]

I think the voice in the response speech was a matter of over coaching and making her sound nothing like herself. It didn’t seem like a good example of Fundie Voice to me. I think true fundie voice is what you hear when Michelle Duggar or Kelly Johnson speak. It’s more than just the accent and don’t get me started on the very studied ‘adoring gaze’ when their husbands are speaking. 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I do really want to see women who have dedicated large portions of their life to family and home represented in legislative assemblies and elsewhere.  I don't personally feel well-represented by women who have been primarily focused on career throughout their lives. Nurturing and caregiving are huge parts of many women's lives and I want to see those recognized as the competent, skill-filled, impactful work that they are!

I’m not sure that an extremely wealthy woman who likely had a full staff of help is going to be able to fully represent the life of an average stay at home mom.  The only “staff” I’ve ever had is the washing machine.  

Edited March 12 by Heartstrings

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m not sure that an extremely wealthy woman who likely had a full staff of help is going to be able to fully represent the life of an average stay at home mom.  The only “staff” I’ve ever had is the washing machine.  

Her net worth is estimated over $5 million. Her husband, Wesley, used to play for the New England Patriots. She herself is an attorney who worked in corporate law and mergers & acquisitions prior to becoming a Senator.

Calling her a housewife is a stretch. She's a wife, she has a house, but she hasn't been a SAHM.

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Her net worth is estimated over $5 million. Her husband, Wesley, used to play for the New England Patriots. She herself is an attorney who worked in corporate law and mergers & acquisitions prior to becoming a Senator.

Calling her a housewife is a stretch. She's a wife, she has a house, but she hasn't been a SAHM.

I didn’t realize she was an attorney.  Now I’m even more annoyed at the “housewife” comment.  How disingenuous.   

Edited March 12 by Heartstrings

[prairiewindmomma]

23 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I didn’t realize she was an attorney.  Now I’m even more annoyed at the “housewife” comment.  How disingenuous.   

She made partner at Butler Snow, though she is now on leave of absence.  Her husband works as a lobbyist.

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, Eos said:

Ok I have a confession: I have a secret morbid fascination with the trad wife instagram aesthetic. Mmmm, all that soft gray linen! 

Seriously though, all the full time and/or homeschooling moms I know, myself included, made a choice to stay home and/or homeschool. Did the online tradwives' husbands make them stay home and become influencers? I'm in a pretty traditional-looking marriage by choice and I'm irritated that these people are claiming this lifestyle as an aesthetic.

There's a lot of interesting critique of the tradwives but what really strikes me is their very feminist-seeming self-promotion.

What gets me about these trad wife influencers is that the successful ones all pretend they’re not working full time and likely out earning their husbands. Those videos don’t make themselves and you don’t buy expensive cameras with coupons. 

[Pam in CT]

re Equal Credit Opportunity Act

4 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

1974 = Equal Credit Opportunity Act in which women, married or not, were granted the right to own a bank account or credit account in their own name.  Some of us here are older than 1974, born into a world in which had things not changed we would not be able to control our own finances.

thanks to Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

It hasn't been all that long, and the rights that were won are by no means permanently or irrevocably secured. That case would not be received / accepted / decided that way, today, by the current SCOTUS.

[JennyD]

4 hours ago, maize said:

I do really want to see women who have dedicated large portions of their life to family and home represented in legislative assemblies and elsewhere.

Me too.  Often when I need a little inspiration I think about Nancy Pelosi, who stayed home with her five kids for many years and only ran for office after the youngest left for college.   And my mom likes to remind me that Sandra Day O'Connor stayed home with her kids, too, although in fairness that was just a few years.

 

 

[El...]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I’m not sure that an extremely wealthy woman who likely had a full staff of help is going to be able to fully represent the life of an average stay at home mom.  The only “staff” I’ve ever had is the washing machine.  

Hey now, my crockpot and dishwasher need recognition, too. 😁

[Heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, El... said:

Hey now, my crockpot and dishwasher need recognition, too. 😁

Crockpots are the unsung heroes 

[gardenmom5]

Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but I've thought the "tradwife" was either a reaction to the excesses of feminism (which I understand - I grew up across the street from a local feminist leader. And I certainly got the message of "you must work or you're nothing" from the FEMINIST FEMALES around me.  very messed up.)
or - and I absolutely think this, some of them, at least at the beginning, was their schtick to get subs to video blogs (and make money from followers.)  which also answers the question of why they can't just go off and live quiet lives with their families. . . 


Not every woman can do Layla the Boxer.  (through which she met her husband and his dog Luna - and made some Superbowl worthy potential ads for Doritos.)  Some serious skills.
 

[maize]

To my mind the question isn't so much why do trad wife influencers make videos and such--we know why they do, it's a way to make money and probably also fill a need for attention. 

I want to know why anyone follows them?

Also why anyone follows any influencer?

Why do humans do humanness?

 

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, El... said:

Hey now, my crockpot and dishwasher need recognition, too. 😁

Yes, the machines are our modern-day servants.

[KSera]

Wow. Not being on social media seems to have left me behind on the tradwife thing. This thread is the first time I’ve heard the term 😳. (Are these the women the #sadbeigechildren usually belong to?)

Edited March 13 by KSera

[ScoutTN]

6 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

1974 = Equal Credit Opportunity Act in which women, married or not, were granted the right to own a bank account or credit account in their own name.  Some of us here are older than 1974, born into a world in which had things not changed we would not be able to control our own finances.

This was huge for my newly-divorced (not her choice) mom with two little kids! She had not been able to get credit anywhere even though she owned a home (small mortgage) a good car, some valuable antiques, jewelry, silver etc., and had a full time job as a high school teacher. 

[Eos]

33 minutes ago, maize said:

To my mind the question isn't so much why do trad wife influencers make videos and such--we know why they do, it's a way to make money and probably also fill a need for attention. 

I want to know why anyone follows them?

Also why anyone follows any influencer?

Why do humans do humanness?

 

Lest anyone think I follow them, I really don't! Just trad-curious or maybe a peeping Matilda....

Just now, KSera said:

Wow. Not being on social media seems to have left me behind on the tradwife thing. This thread is the first time I’ve heard the term 😳. (Are these the women the #sadgraybabies usually belong to?)

Yes. They match their gray and white linen mommies.

I'm grateful for the women of this board with whom I can share a laugh about a phenomenon that many of us would be considered to be a part of if we weren't so skeptical🧐

[maize]

I know nothing about sadbeigechildren, but if you want to know about the children who were having a snowball fight last week in T-shirts, shorts, and bare feet...they seem to live at the same address as me.

I claim no relationship or responsibility. 

[Eos]

2 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

This was huge for my newly-divorced (not her choice) mom with two little kids! She had not been able to get credit anywhere even though she owned a home (small mortgage) a good car, some valuable antiques, jewelry, silver etc., and had a full time job as a high school teacher. 

I couldn't decide whether to like your post or send you a sad face for your mom, but good for her, long ago.

[katilac]

On 3/10/2024 at 11:31 AM, KSera said:

Cuts off partway through for web readers unfortunately. I was wondering if she describes how the actual teaching of this occurs. It’s hard for me to fathom girls actually being formally trained in what their voice is supposed to sound like. I have no idea what that looks like. 

Some Christian lifestyle books and social media accounts do talk about it specifically, and it's preached in the pulpit. But I'm sure much of the teaching is informal: girls are told to watch their tone and/or keep sweet when they don't talk that way, and get approval when they do talk that way. 

On 3/10/2024 at 1:00 PM, kbutton said:

Me too. I am sure I’ve heard it somewhere, but I couldn’t say it’s common in any fundamental circles I’ve been in. Neither is patriarchy.

What churches or denominations would you describe as fundamentalist but not patriarchal? 

On 3/10/2024 at 9:01 PM, maize said:

 I'm really not a fan of judging anything about people based on their speech. 

People are not judging Katie Britt based on her speech; they are judging her for a (very bad) performance in which she did not use her usual voice and speech patterns. Compare clips and it's abundantly clear. 

On 3/11/2024 at 12:21 PM, kbutton said:

 

I think calling this a Gothard baby voice might be better than fundie baby voice when talking about it in a religious context.  

Except it is not at all limited to followers of Gothard. 

On 3/11/2024 at 9:23 PM, Ginevra said:

To me, it just sounded like a person with a lot of nerves and/or attempting not to cry. I didn’t watch it all though, so maybe that’s why. 

No, it's because you're not familiar with her usual voice and speech patterns. Watch her speak in a few other contexts and you will see the difference. People don't have issues with her actual voice, they have issues with her obviously and purposefully changing her voice and speech patterns for this speech. 

7 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s not just living a certain way, it’s advancing an agenda.  They actively try to recruit people to their movement, have podcasts and you tube channels to help support it, all the things.  They also have the ear of important people who are actively trying to roll back womens rights, such as advocating for women to not be allowed to vote and rolling back access to credit, bank accounts and property ownership.  
 

And, related to this, Katie Britt intended to change her voice and speech patterns as a coded dog whistle for certain listeners, but obviously overshot her mark by a mile, lol.

6 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I think the voice in the response speech was a matter of over coaching and making her sound nothing like herself. It didn’t seem like a good example of Fundie Voice to me. I think true fundie voice is what you hear when Michelle Duggar or Kelly Johnson speak. It’s more than just the accent and don’t get me started on the very studied ‘adoring gaze’ when their husbands are speaking. 

While I'm over here yelling "fundie baby voice!!" before the third sentence. 

Katie Britt was a practicing attorney before she became a senator. She has given many, many speeches. While I'm sure she was coached on this particular speech, I think the breathiness, the near-tearfulness, and the wide eyes were all just as purposeful as giving the speech sitting at a kitchen table. It just didn't work. 

Edited March 13 by katilac

[katilac]

21 minutes ago, KSera said:

Wow. Not being on social media seems to have left me behind on the tradwife thing. This thread is the first time I’ve heard the term 😳. (Are these the women the #sadbeigechildren usually belong to?)

Those #sadbeigechildren are everywhere. 

[gardenmom5]

16 minutes ago, maize said:

I know nothing about sadbeigechildren, but if you want to know about the children who were having a snowball fight last week in T-shirts, shorts, and bare feet...they seem to live at the same address as me.

I claim no relationship or responsibility. 

2ds . . .. I finally agreed to a compromise with him.  He could wear shorts and flip flops when it was 30 degrees outside as long as he wore a coat . . . or at least a sweater, or a sweatshirt!  (coats, sweaters, sweatshirts . . . were all left on the playground.)
 

[Grace Hopper]

9 hours ago, maize said:

I know nothing about sadbeigechildren, but if you want to know about the children who were having a snowball fight last week in T-shirts, shorts, and bare feet...they seem to live at the same address as me.

I claim no relationship or responsibility. 

No sadbeigechildren here either. Bet they smell better than my passel of stinky grass stained sports playing fast food working teens did in my traddiest years. 

Edited March 13 by Grace Hopper

[Pawz4me]

7 hours ago, maize said:

 

Also why anyone follows any influencer?

 

Seriously. I do not get it. At all. And FWIW I have two of them on the periphery of my life. One makes a little extra money, the other could probably live on what he makes, although influencing isn't his main job and he doesn't want it to be. But they're both quite normal, everyday people.

 

6 hours ago, KSera said:

Wow. Not being on social media seems to have left me behind on the tradwife thing. This thread is the first time I’ve heard the term 😳. (Are these the women the #sadbeigechildren usually belong to?)

The tradwife thing has been written about by various news outlets I read. I suppose because it crosses over into the political realm. I have no idea what #sadbeigechildren means, though.

As far as Katie Britt--I'd never heard of her until the SOTU rebuttal. But I read somewhere that the entry level model of the fridge in her kitchen starts out at $10k. So that kinda clued me in that she's not exactly representative of Average US Mom.

[Sneezyone]

8 hours ago, JennyD said:

Me too.  Often when I need a little inspiration I think about Nancy Pelosi, who stayed home with her five kids for many years and only ran for office after the youngest left for college.   And my mom likes to remind me that Sandra Day O'Connor stayed home with her kids, too, although in fairness that was just a few years.

 

 

My SHEroes, raising *good* kids in obscurity and raising their profile only when their primary/hardest work was done successfully. 

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Seriously. I do not get it. At all. And FWIW I have two of them on the periphery of my life. One makes a little extra money, the other could probably live on what he makes, although influencing isn't his main job and he doesn't want it to be. But they're both quite normal, everyday people.

 

The tradwife thing has been written about by various news outlets I read. I suppose because it crosses over into the political realm. I have no idea what #sadbeigechildren means, though.

As far as Katie Britt--I'd never heard of her until the SOTU rebuttal. But I read somewhere that the entry level model of the fridge in her kitchen starts out at $10k. So that kinda clued me in that she's not exactly representative of Average US Mom.

The fridge (I’m bougie and I know it) IMMEDIATELY jumped out at me.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

Seriously. I do not get it. At all. And FWIW I have two of them on the periphery of my life. One makes a little extra money, the other could probably live on what he makes, although influencing isn't his main job and he doesn't want it to be. But they're both quite normal, everyday people.

 

The tradwife thing has been written about by various news outlets I read. I suppose because it crosses over into the political realm. I have no idea what #sadbeigechildren means, though.

As far as Katie Britt--I'd never heard of her until the SOTU rebuttal. But I read somewhere that the entry level model of the fridge in her kitchen starts out at $10k. So that kinda clued me in that she's not exactly representative of Average US Mom.

The sadbeigechildren thing is about this very popular aesthetic with influencer moms where literally it seems like everything their baby wears, plays with, everything she decorates with, is beige, cream, and grey but mostly beige. Zero color. It is the most boring color palette ever. Not a splash of color anywhere. Jessa and Joy Duggar who do the influencing thing ( and let me just say I am really disgusted by it because it is 100% pimping out their kids for money) and their videos are just, well, sad and beige. Carlin Bates, And just so many others who are well known extreme fundamentalist moms are very into this. The meme was born when people began to notice the trend among them, and I am not exaggerating when I say it is difficult to find any hint of bright color or even a pastel on these kids, around these kids, in the decor. It is 100% neutral, and the least striking neutrals at that. Not even chocolate brown or dark, charcoal grey. It makes everything blend together and look so bland. People feel sorry for the babies especially because as vision is developing the lack of color must be so boring.

[Jaybee]

Looking at my life from the outside, I look very traditional, though not tradwife wealthy or anything. I am still at home though my kids are grown. (I worked for awhile, and enjoyed it, but the atmosphere became more and more poisonous due to the main boss' arrogance, etc., so I eventually couldn't stomach supporting that any more and just quit. I've halfheartedly looked for another job, but prefer being at home.) Education was emphasized in my FOO, however, and also in our home, and I have my master's degree. I strongly support my kids/spouses to go the route that they feel best fits them. I think it generally helps the home to run more smoothly and less hectically when there is a SAHP, but the "right" to follow one's giftedness and dreams is something I take seriously. Plus, you just never know what is going to happen in life, and I want my daughters and dils to have some skills in place. I was appalled a few years ago to hear the associate pastor in our (then, but not long after) church make a casual statement about women not really needing the right to vote. Since, I have read that sentiment more often. I'm still appalled by it. 

I don't appreciate being looked down on because I did not choose a career. But I definitely appreciate having the choice.

[maize]

59 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Looking at my life from the outside, I look very traditional, though not tradwife wealthy or anything. I am still at home though my kids are grown. (I worked for awhile, and enjoyed it, but the atmosphere became more and more poisonous due to the main boss' arrogance, etc., so I eventually couldn't stomach supporting that any more and just quit. I've halfheartedly looked for another job, but prefer being at home.) Education was emphasized in my FOO, however, and also in our home, and I have my master's degree. I strongly support my kids/spouses to go the route that they feel best fits them. I think it generally helps the home to run more smoothly and less hectically when there is a SAHP, but the "right" to follow one's giftedness and dreams is something I take seriously. Plus, you just never know what is going to happen in life, and I want my daughters and dils to have some skills in place. I was appalled a few years ago to hear the associate pastor in our (then, but not long after) church make a casual statement about women not really needing the right to vote. Since, I have read that sentiment more often. I'm still appalled by it. 

I don't appreciate being looked down on because I did not choose a career. But I definitely appreciate having the choice.

I feel like #tradwife is a different thing entirely from being a traditional full-time parent/homemaker.

It seems to be *performative* in nature.

I agree with you 100% that there is immense value to a family in having a parent who dedicates themselves primarily to the work of the home and family; it is not work to be looked down on.

I would love to see the value of caregiving work taken up as a serious focus within feminist movements.  Whether full-time or in tandem with other labor, caregiving is a huge portion of many women's lives and it hasn't been given the attention, consideration,  or respect it deserves. I don't think it is actually possible to put women on an equal footing in society until we elevate caregiving on equal footing with the competitive kinds of work we currently value most highly. 

The book Unifinished Business did a pretty good job of explaining why caregiving needs to be taken more seriously, by everyone and especially by feminists.

https://www.amazon.com/Unfinished-Business-Women-Work-Family/dp/0812984978#

 

Edited March 13 by maize

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

The sadbeigechildren thing is about this very popular aesthetic with influencer moms where literally it seems like everything their baby wears, plays with, everything she decorates with, is beige, cream, and grey but mostly beige. Zero color. It is the most boring color palette ever. Not a splash of color anywhere. Jessa and Joy Duggar who do the influencing thing ( and let me just say I am really disgusted by it because it is 100% pimping out their kids for money) and their videos are just, well, sad and beige. Carlin Bates, And just so many others who are well known extreme fundamentalist moms are very into this. The meme was born when people began to notice the trend among them, and I am not exaggerating when I say it is difficult to find any hint of bright color or even a pastel on these kids, around these kids, in the decor. It is 100% neutral, and the least striking neutrals at that. Not even chocolate brown or dark, charcoal grey. It makes everything blend together and look so bland. People feel sorry for the babies especially because as vision is developing the lack of color must be so boring.

I'm guessing it is just to make the right things stand out in their videos.

Most likely these kids have color in their lives, just not while Mom is filming.

Though, I'm not sure primary colors are really what babies need to look at all day.  I think that's just to please the older members of the family.  Wee babies are wired to be interested in whatever colors are on their mom's face, mostly.

[Eos]

Just now, SKL said:

 

58 minutes ago, maize said:

I feel like #tradwife is a different thing entirely from being a traditional full-time parent/homemaker.

It seems to be *performative* in nature.

I agree with you 100% that there is immense value to a family in having a parent who dedicates themselves primarily to the work of the home and family; it is not work to be looked down on.

I would love to see the value of caregiving work taken up as a serious focus within feminist movements.  Whether full-time or in tandem with other labor, caregiving is a huge portion of many women's lives and it hasn't been given the attention, consideration,  or respect it deserves. I don't think it is actually possible to put women on an equal footing in society until we elevate caregiving on equal footing with the competitive kinds of work we currently value most highly. 

 

 

I completely agree. Thanks for the book rec. Regarding the performative element, yesterday I was harboring dark thoughts about the future for these families when the pendulum swings or some new form of marketing takes off, will their marriages take the strain? Or will there arise a new online trend of #formertrads with indignant, tell-all memoirs? Or when their children reach adulthood and start attending the "I was a sad beige baby with everything to live for" support groups?

[Eos]

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

Most likely these kids have color in their lives, just not while Mom is filming.

I knew one friend who decorated like this when her kids were young and she homeschooled for awhile. Gray walls, white floors, pale blue carpet.  It was very pretty but also felt very cold and performative though she wasn't vlogging. I always worried my full color kids would ruin or stain something at her house when we visited.

[freesia]

17 minutes ago, Eos said:

I completely agree. Thanks for the book rec. Regarding the performative element, yesterday I was harboring dark thoughts about the future for these families when the pendulum swings or some new form of marketing takes off, will their marriages take the strain? Or will there arise a new online trend of #formertrads with indignant, tell-all memoirs? Or when their children reach adulthood and start attending the "I was a sad beige baby with everything to live for" support groups?

It's funny you say that.  I just read an article last week about a formertrad telling why she left the "movement." (and her marriage)

[Eos]

Just now, freesia said:

It's funny you say that.  I just read an article last week about a formertrad telling why she left the "movement." (and her marriage)

Huh, that didn't take long!

[Pam in CT]

re direction toward which such patriarchal gender-casting naturally drives

1 hour ago, Jaybee said:

...I was appalled a few years ago to hear the associate pastor in our (then, but not long after) church make a casual statement about women not really needing the right to vote. Since, I have read that sentiment more often. I'm still appalled by it. 

I don't appreciate being looked down on because I did not choose a career. But I definitely appreciate having the choice.

Right. And the gains toward women having choices (including voting, access to credit, access to employment, decisionmaking over whether/when to marry and whether/when to leave marriage, decisionmaking over number/timing of children) are both quite recent in the scheme of things and also not settled permanently.  See: associate pastor, casual statement, women don't "really" need the vote, presumably because wiser minds can make better choices on their behalf.

Whatever errors the First and Second waves of women struggling for women's agency made -- and being human they made plenty errors -- the gains they did make are foundational to our lives today. The gains they made are also FRAGILE.

(as also are the gains made by racial and religious minorities and LGBT population)

The expansion of rights and choices does not inevitably and permanently go towards "more."  There is a substantial and pretty-loud segment of our society today -- as in some prior societies -- that explicitly calls for a movement BACK, to a time when women (and racial and religious minorities and LGBT) had FEWER rights and choices. See: associate pastor, who without getting political is hardly alone.

 

 

re pendulum swings and performative element

30 minutes ago, Eos said:

I completely agree. Thanks for the book rec. Regarding the performative element, yesterday I was harboring dark thoughts about the future for these families when the pendulum swings or some new form of marketing takes off, will their marriages take the strain? Or will there arise a new online trend of #formertrads with indignant, tell-all memoirs? Or when their children reach adulthood and start attending the "I was a sad beige baby with everything to live for" support groups?

OK this is not only #Hilarious but also surprisingly optimistic.

 

What IS Milo Yiannopolus up to these days anyway?  Off to the rabbit trails..

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I feel like #tradwife is a different thing entirely from being a traditional full-time parent/homemaker.

It seems to be *performative* in nature.

I agree with you 100% that there is immense value to a family in having a parent who dedicates themselves primarily to the work of the home and family; it is not work to be looked down on.

I would love to see the value of caregiving work taken up as a serious focus within feminist movements.  Whether full-time or in tandem with other labor, caregiving is a huge portion of many women's lives and it hasn't been given the attention, consideration,  or respect it deserves. I don't think it is actually possible to put women on an equal footing in society until we elevate caregiving on equal footing with the competitive kinds of work we currently value most highly. 

The book Unifinished Business did a pretty good job of explaining why caregiving needs to be taken more seriously, by everyone and especially by feminists.

https://www.amazon.com/Unfinished-Business-Women-Work-Family/dp/0812984978#

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the performative aspect, and certainly so among "influencers". There is also this kind of mean girl hierarchy, " Look at me. I am better than you because I am doing what God says women should do" kind of attitude. Then there is the whole "Above rubies" thing where they casually forget that this woman had servants to run the home so she could be devoted to business.

Above Rubies type theology permeated a lot of homeschool groups and women's faith conventions in the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's, and it was built on a false ideology that the average woman without servants, without the kind of living community of the time period in which it was written was even doable, much less even being desirable or well suited for all women. It was a mess, and this tradwife thing seems to continue to be founded on a one size fits all diminution of womanhood to one very narrow focus.

Think about a lot of the speaker at the larger homeschool conferences that weren't Gothard. Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips, Videos Baucham, Geoff Botkin, Josh Harris to some degree, RC Sprout Jr, and many others.

Here is an article from the New Yorker that is very interesting.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/on-religion/the-unmaking-of-biblical-womanhood

The women of Duggar and Bates acclaim might seem to be some sort of extreme, aberrations whose influence should not be taken seriously. But, Jinger - very much still in deep, just with a different leader John MacArthur - Jessa, and Joy have millions of followers. So though they might be considered fringe by boarded here, their IBLP style message disguised by looking more mainstream, is a bit more influential than some would like to believe. These are just three examples. There are many more whose influence has seeped into public life in a very subtle, but definitely noticeable way at a time when human rights are being eroded rather quickly.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, maize said:

I feel like #tradwife is a different thing entirely from being a traditional full-time parent/homemaker.

It seems to be *performative* in nature.

I agree with you 100% that there is immense value to a family in having a parent who dedicates themselves primarily to the work of the home and family; it is not work to be looked down on.

I would love to see the value of caregiving work taken up as a serious focus within feminist movements.  Whether full-time or in tandem with other labor, caregiving is a huge portion of many women's lives and it hasn't been given the attention, consideration,  or respect it deserves. I don't think it is actually possible to put women on an equal footing in society until we elevate caregiving on equal footing with the competitive kinds of work we currently value most highly. 

The book Unifinished Business did a pretty good job of explaining why caregiving needs to be taken more seriously, by everyone and especially by feminists.

https://www.amazon.com/Unfinished-Business-Women-Work-Family/dp/0812984978#

 

This. I’ve done both, before and after kids, and left significant $$ on the table in the process. I don’t regret that but it did leave me vulnerable for a long time(not now).

Watching the ‘tradwife’/porn preference take root among inCels and radicals on BOTH sides of the political spectrum, and now living thru DHs untimely  midlife crisis, is hard. 

I’m not scared per se (b/c my career is restarted and lively) but terrified for those who have few/no options if their relationships fail.
 

The disenfranchisement or bust/ ‘die enceinte for the cause’ folks truly scare me. Everyone else is conquerable at my desk or at the polls.

[Laura Corin]

3 hours ago, maize said:

I feel like #tradwife is a different thing entirely from being a traditional full-time parent/homemaker.

It seems to be *performative* in nature.

I agree with you 100% that there is immense value to a family in having a parent who dedicates themselves primarily to the work of the home and family; it is not work to be looked down on.

I would love to see the value of caregiving work taken up as a serious focus within feminist movements.  Whether full-time or in tandem with other labor, caregiving is a huge portion of many women's lives and it hasn't been given the attention, consideration,  or respect it deserves. I don't think it is actually possible to put women on an equal footing in society until we elevate caregiving on equal footing with the competitive kinds of work we currently value most highly. 

The book Unifinished Business did a pretty good job of explaining why caregiving needs to be taken more seriously, by everyone and especially by feminists.

https://www.amazon.com/Unfinished-Business-Women-Work-Family/dp/0812984978#

 

When my mum was active in the Women's Movement in the 70s, Wages for Housework was a strong sub-movement.  I'm not sure whether everyone involved actually wanted/expected for housework to be paid by someone, but the framing was in order to assign due value to caring.

[prairiewindmomma]

Women here lack financial security if they are SAHMs.  They don't generate social security credits, they don't generate disability payment credits.There are long-term, lifelong implications for being a caregiver during your working years. While many women never foresee themselves as becoming single or needing to later become a provider when they start off in traditional marriage arrangements, more than half do.  

I'd love to see to see some of our benefit structures change so that women could generate social security/disability credits.  Obamacare/healthcare.gov has given greater access to health insurance outside of employment, which I think is wonderful.

Edited March 13 by prairiewindmomma

[SHP]

OMG I hadn't heard of sadbeigechildren so I went to look up some influencers and wow, sad indeed.

I wouldn't have made it as a tradwife influencer, especially when the older ones were little. When I had my first a friend shared the poem 'The Grass Will Grow'. I applied the message to all the things. There will be time for a perfect yard and a spotless house that can be as boring as whatever the modern decor trend is. But with kids? It isn't worth it.

Note: I heard it on an Erma Bombeck record where she read some of her essays. I don't know if this was written by her or not but here it is

https://markconner.typepad.com/catch_the_wind/2011/09/the-grass-will.html

[Carol in Cal.]

I wonder whether the beige colors are indicative of organic, undyed fibers?  Because chemical inputs reduction is a value that some hold, and cotton, most wool, and linen, if undyed, would fall into that color range.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I wonder whether the beige colors are indicative of organic, undyed fibers?  Because chemical inputs reduction is a value that some hold, and cotton, most wool, and linen, if undyed, would fall into that color range.

I think that if we were talking about the crunchy, earth mom influence, then that is a very valid point. Most of the influencers I have seen do not appear to espousing this at all given the sheer amount of lab/manufactured fibers used in their clothing, decor, etc. 

[Faith-manor]

I don't know how many of you are aware of the background of Doug Phillips of Vision Forum infamy from the 90's and 2000's until his flaming fall from the homeschool movement. Here it is because it is very much aligned with the issues Pam in Ct was posting about.

Doug's father, Howard Phillips, was a political activist who formed the Constitution Party, now known as the TaxPayer Party. You may have seen the taxpayer party on a ballot with some obscure name next to it and wondered what that was all about. Howard formed this party, and even campaigned for president, on a platform of "Christian women should vote for me so I can institute a 'city on a hill' theocracy in which as soon as I am elected, I will repeal women's voting rights because that is god's plan" kind of thing. He didn't get far, but he did run three times ,1992, 1996, and 2000. He didn't get more than 200,000 votes in any one of these runs, however you do need to imagine the potential influence of someone who had just enough funding to run around the country stumping in a lot of states, speaking in a lot of churches and faith based conventions. Imagine what happens to the right to credit, the right to enter rental contracts, car loans, the right to bank accounts, if the right to vote goes the way of the Dodo.s

He essentially took up the flame of Phyllis Schafly and Jerry Falwell which had begun dying down a good bit. It helped launch Doug's career, a career that put him first in the halls of Homeschool Legal Defense Association, and then later to Vision Forum and homeschool conventions all over the US, special speaker in many conservative environs around the nation, and much liked by several prominent policy makers. So Howard and Doug may have been thought of as fringe to many, many regular people just going about their lives thinking whackadoodles will never get the upper hand on issues. Yet, fringe often does have a lot more influence than we tend to notice until that moment when we get hit upside the head with the proverbial iron skillet and go, "Where the heck did that come from!"

I hope that was not too political. And is very difficult to talk about ideology and how those ideas infiltrate our culture without making any reference to politics. I am more than willing to delete this content if it deemed over the line.

The degradation of women's rights returns half the population of this nation and their children to a subclass that has no way out of male domination when things go wrong. I think about John MacArthur who excommunicated a woman from his church for divorcing her husband who was sexually abusing their children. The husband went to prison, but she lost her church family and support because "how dare she". I am very thankful that the state of California was not an autocracy under theological ideology that made it impossible for her to get out. As for MacArthur, you can only imagine what I think of him. It would have to be expressed with symbols, because the words would be highly inappropriate for this forum! That is the mess Jinger Duggar Vuolo is knee deep inside. Sigh. Out of the frying pan, and into the fire, as the saying goes.

[maize]

57 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Women here lack financial security if they are SAHMs.  They don't generate social security credits, they don't generate disability payment credits.There are long-term, lifelong implications for being a caregiver during your working years. While many women never foresee themselves as becoming single or needing to later become a provider when they start off in traditional marriage arrangements, more than half do.  

I'd love to see to see some of our benefit structures change so that women could generate social security/disability credits.  Obamacare/healthcare.gov has given greater access to health insurance outside of employment, which I think is wonderful.

Social Security credit for caregiving work is one of the things I would most like to see as a start to acknowledging the real value of that work.

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, katilac said:

What churches or denominations would you describe as fundamentalist but not patriarchal? 

Some of the fundamentalist independent Baptist churches that I knew (but didn’t attend) from my youth are fundamentalist but not patriarchal. I make a distinction between conservative gender roles and patriarchy, and I’m not going to argue about the difference. Some would see that as a continuum, but it plays out very differently. That doesn’t mean that these circles aren’t at risk or that some of them aren’t patriarchal—Faith-Manor’s experience is that they are. My experience is that many are not and that it’s less fundamentalist churches that are now flirting with patriarchy. There is also an age difference—older fundamentalists might put up with more entitled husbands than patriarchal husbands but believe in education and opportunities and voting. Where I’m from It’s more present with middle-aged and slightly older or those raised by parents who were maybe flirting with patriarchy but ultimately didn’t buy the whole bag. Sometimes parents move on, but they don’t realize what their kids absorbed (or were maybe taught by zealous people in Sunday School, etc.), and they don’t realize their kids grew up and gravitated toward that stuff.

I routinely talk to people who really are shocked at what other people who look alike on paper (conservative views of marriage, etc.) are doing—if they believe it at all. That’s the insidious part—the crazies take cover behind the convictionally conservative people who would never take xyz principle “that far.” They wouldn’t go off the deep end, so apparently neither would another person with overlapping beliefs.

David French talks from time to time about fundamentalism as a set of conservative beliefs vs. as a fundamentalist mindset and how those are different. It makes it harder to discuss if you can’t see or discuss the difference because fundamentalism means multiple things.

[kbutton]

22 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I hope that was not too political. And is very difficult to talk about ideology and how those ideas infiltrate our culture without making any reference to politics. I am more than willing to delete this content if it deemed over the line.

I’m not a moderator, but I think you’re tying together the intellectual origins of certain things vs. stumping or agitating.