Truth and Family History and other musings

[TexasProud]

So I was talking to my husband about family history and stories, and he said that we will never really know the "truth" because everyone is seeing it from different angles. 

 

Backstory. I messaged back and forth with my cousin in response to a piece I did on my father. She liked it and said it was the first authentic thing she had ever heard or read about my dad's side of the family. Then she proceeded to tell me stories, many of which I really didn't want to hear, but now I REALLY wish I could go back to the sources, but they are all dead. 

Part of her source is her mother, which I will be honest. I don't like.  Her interactions with me were not good. So, stories that she tells about my mom and grandmother being catty and mocking her for wearing make-up and being pretty....  I NEVER, EVER heard my mother talk bad about anyone.  I asked my husband and he agreed. I never heard my grandmother say anything like that either. Heck, she was very quiet and I don't really remember he saying much of anything at all.  So, I wonder if it was all in her head.  But maybe it wasn't. I don't know.  That one. Fine, I can just leave.

But then she told some more serious stories about my grandfather whom I adored. Some of which, I might believe. Some I find very hard to.  The source of some of that was her dad which I adored. I guess he said some stuff on his deathbed. 

One of which is my dad became "bipolar" so late (junior high)that they thought he had been sexual abused by a scout master or someone else, but they never really knew...  WHAT????? But that is what the brothers wondered.   THe allegations against my grandfather were not sexual...not that he was involved in my dad's personality change but other stuff separately. 

And I also wonder, if some of these allegations are true if my grandfather was just a different person with me.  If so, this will be the third person in my life like this.  I have always felt sympathy for Phylicia Rashad and Bill Cosby's wife.  Because there have been a couple of people that apparently were not nice people.  (Now the allegations against my grandfather were not sexual btw), but they were  very nice to me and helped me or family members. I didn't recognize the person that they were to others ( and there was enough people/evidence that I believe what they said was true).  It is like I have some kind of shield around me. People are always very nice and polite and on their best behavior, I guess. I have been nice to people and they have always been nice to me with a few exceptions in very early elementary. 

So.. should I investigate and talk with my mom's sister to find out if the allegations  about my grandfather are true, which honestly, she might not know since she wasn't a member of my dad's family.  Does it matter since he isn't some kind of public figure?  Do I just try to forget all of that and just concentrate on all of my wonderful memories? 

In a way, I feel like I am responsible for the legacy we leave..   I don't know.  But man, my grandfather was one of the very few safe places for me. He hated how much my parents screamed at me.  He always helped my self-confidence.  He was in my corner. He loved me. Going to his house was such a safe place...  Sigh...
 

Edited December 4, 2023 by TexasProud

[Katy]

I don’t think you need to suss out the truth. But these people you adored were human, and they made human mistakes too, even if you never knew them. There’s a reason there’s an old adage about not speaking ill of the dead. 
 

As an aside, I have an extended family member who adored her father. But after his death she found out he sexually abused multiple other kids. He was a sweet and loving father to her though. Both things were true. 

[maize]

People are complicatesd and are never black and white. Your grandfather had a positive impact on your life--for you, that is what matters most and rightfully so.

You've learned he was likely not a saint towards all people at every point in his life. That's true for most humans. Maybe he was downright awful at times. That's not uncommon either.

It doesn't negate that parts of his life and actions were good and resulted in good, and those parts still matter.

I was named after my grandmother's grandmother, so I've taken a significant interest in her life. She lived a complicated life; she was divorced twice, widowed four times, had children by five of her six husbands and those kids had different experiences and perspectives on her life. So do tge local newspapers, where I've found some of the more colorful-in-a-not-good-way pieces of her life reported. There's a lot of a human mix of good and bad in her story.

To my grandmother, she was a powerfully positive influence and support.

Personally, I find that encouraging.  

[TexasProud]

Yes, I know that people are complicated.  I certainly didn't think he was perfect.  But one example:  He was so controlling and abusive he never let my grandmother learn to drive...    That just doesn't click with me.  I saw them interact and even looking back, I never saw her as scared of him.  In fact, I remember my granddad wanting to do things like get her a new coat and she refused to let him saying it would be a waste of money...    

If it matters, I was 14 when my grandmother died and 22 when my grandfather did. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by TexasProud

[maize]

Just now, TexasProud said:

Yes, I know that people are complicated.  I certainly didn't think he was perfect.  But one example:  He was so controlling and abusive he never let my grandmother learn to drive...    That just doesn't click with me.  I saw them interact and even looking back, I never saw her as scared of him.  In fact, I remember my granddad wanting to do things like get her a new coat and she refused to let him saying it would be a waste of money...    

That kind of control can be pretty subtle and really hard for someone who doesn't live in the home full-time to see. 

My maternal grandfather always seemed solicitous towards my grandmother when I was around them, but I've learned of a lot of controlling behavior from him over the course of their marriage. Trying to control other people often comes from a place of anxiety, and it can manifest very discreetly.

It's wrong and abusive, but it can coexist with genuine love.

[TexasProud]

14 minutes ago, maize said:

That kind of control can be pretty subtle and really hard for someone who doesn't live in the home full-time to see. 

My maternal grandfather always seemed solicitous towards my grandmother when I was around them, but I've learned of a lot of controlling behavior from him over the course of their marriage. Trying to control other people often comes from a place of anxiety, and it can manifest very discreetly.

It's wrong and abusive, but it can coexist with genuine love.

Yeah, but he bought me a car in college so I would have one to use....    He also paid for my last couple of years at Baylor when my parents got divorced and couldn't afford it.   And he was a school teacher. Both of my grandparents were.  They saved up for a 10,000 CD for each of their 4 grandchildren.  He told me he was giving me the inheritance early because I needed it more then.  (Baylor was CHEAP back then 7,000 a year and I had 3500 or more in scholarships. So each year of Baylor only cost him a couple thousand, yes room and board. 

Edited December 4, 2023 by TexasProud

[TechWife]

38 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So I was talking to my husband about family history and stories, and he said that we will never really know the "truth" because everyone is seeing it from different angles. 

...

I only want to address this. Your husband is correct that we tell stories from our own perspective, which is based on our perceptions. This means that different people telling the same story include and/or leave out some of details. This does not mean that the stories aren't true. We all remember different things, forget different things, consider some info more important than other information. We also "edit" our stories based on what we want the person/people listening to know or not know. Just because I say my mom wore a dress doesn't mean that my sister saying she had a sweater on or that she wore a green dress isn't also true.

Edited December 4, 2023 by TechWife

[Pawz4me]

I agree that people are very complicated and that multiple things, even things that are contradictory, can be true about someone. And I agree with what your DH says about people seeing things from different angles or perspectives. What one person sees as controlling behavior can absolutely be something that another person sees as loving and supportive behavior. Plus in any relationship there are two personalities and temperaments interacting, and that can result in wildly different results. To me it's kind of like cooking--a certain ingredient (person) paired with another ingredient (another person) in one recipe works wonderfully, but that same ingredient paired with a different ingredient (a different person) in another recipe might ruin it.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Pawz4me

[Heartstrings]

People are different with their grand children.  Most people mellow with age, to start with. Second, grandchildren are special.   I wouldn’t disregard a story about the behavior in their 20s because of your experience of them from the perspective of a grandchild.  
 

I’ve seen this in action myself.  My brother and I were both scared of my dad as children, when he was in his 40s. I’ve heard plenty of stories of him in his 20s that were even worse, that he’s verified.  My kid think he’s the best thing ever.  They’ve never even seen him angry. He spoils them, let’s them climb all over him, all the grandparent things.  They probably wouldn’t believe the stories of him in his 20s, not their grandpa, he would never!  🤣. 

[SKL]

We all have skeletons in our closets.  If you don't know of any, it's because nobody told you.

I don't think there's much point in spreading all that around when the people involved are dead or too old for anything to change.  Of course sometimes there's a good reason to tell, such as to explain to close people that a person's present is probably a reflection of a traumatic past.  For others, I guess exposing dark secrets / family drama does something for them.  Just remember that every family has dark secrets, whether they tell you about them or not.

Personally I don't have anything super horrible in my background, but there are things I don't think my kids need to know about, and I hope I keep those things to myself until I die.  Because why make life more complicated than it already is?

[SKL]

Just now, Heartstrings said:

People are different with their grand children.  Most people mellow with age, to start with. Second, grandchildren are special.   I wouldn’t disregard a story about the behavior in their 20s because of your experience of them from the perspective of a grandchild.  
 

I’ve seen this in action myself.  My brother and I were both scared of my dad as children, when he was in his 40s. I’ve heard plenty of stories of him in his 20s that were even worse, that he’s verified.  My kid think he’s the best thing ever.  They’ve never even seen him angry. He spoils them, let’s them climb all over him, all the grandparent things.  They probably wouldn’t believe the stories of him in his 20s, not their grandpa, he would never!  🤣. 

This is also true.  As a kid, I kinda didn't believe my parents' stories about my grandmothers, who were always nice to me.  As an adult, I get it.

And my kids say they don't believe stuff I've said about my mom, specifically her colorful language abilities.  😛  Though as they get older and my mom's filter dissipates, they are starting to see the light.  😛

I have a picture of what my kids will say to their kids about me.  😛  Oh well.  I tell them I can't wait to read their book about their horrible chidlhood.  😛

[TexasProud]

26 minutes ago, SKL said:

We all have skeletons in our closets.  If you don't know of any, it's because nobody told you.

I don't think there's much point in spreading all that around when the people involved are dead or too old for anything to change.  Of course sometimes there's a good reason to tell, such as to explain to close people that a person's present is probably a reflection of a traumatic past.  For others, I guess exposing dark secrets / family drama does something for them.  Just remember that every family has dark secrets, whether they tell you about them or not.

So I guess my issue is partly this:  I am the storyteller. The writer.  I went through the items in my cedar chest and threw a few things away.  But then I wrote out what everything was that was in there:  My other grandfather's navy uniform from WWII along with the story of his combat and letters he wrote his family while he is deployed.

So my dad's father has lots of very cool stories that I was going to write out, but now am I giving just a one-dimensional portrait of him?  When people read this in 100 years is it ok that it isn't completely accurate?   But what is accurate and true????

[maize]

10 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So I guess my issue is partly this:  I am the storyteller. The writer.  I went through the items in my cedar chest and threw a few things away.  But then I wrote out what everything was that was in there:  My other grandfather's navy uniform from WWII along with the story of his combat and letters he wrote his family while he is deployed.

So my dad's father has lots of very cool stories that I was going to write out, but now am I giving just a one-dimensional portrait of him?  When people read this in 100 years is it ok that it isn't completely accurate?   But what is accurate and true????

Yes, it's OK if it isn't 100% accurate.

[goldberry]

19 minutes ago, maize said:

Yes, it's OK if it isn't 100% accurate.

I think it's okay. When we read about people in the past, it's interesting and revealing. We know it's never the whole story, that's kind of a given. It's your grandfather, not a historical figure that influenced society that would be more important to see in a balanced way. 

[Heartstrings]

42 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

So my dad's father has lots of very cool stories that I was going to write out, but now am I giving just a one-dimensional portrait of him?  When people read this in 100 years is it ok that it isn't completely accurate?   But what is accurate and true????

Of course it will be a 1 dimensional portrait.   Are you under the impression that things you read about history are 100% true and accurate?   No bias, all perspectives accounted, full and nuanced?  No inconsistencies, no memories slightly warped by time, ever?I think Tesla and  Edison would tell the same story differently.  A true accounting of JFK might leave out his womanizing, or might focus on it, and both could be true, just with different biases.  

All history, all journalism, is biased, and lacks a full understanding.   That doesn’t mean it’s not worth writing or reading.  Isn’t Herodotus known both as the Father of History and the Father of Lies?  We wouldn’t say he’s not worth reading, just that we always have to be aware of it.  
 

 A story written by granddaughter would always need to be viewed through that lens. A granddaughter a) wasn’t there and is writing down stories told to her, which might be exaggerated in some ways, and b) is going to be favorable to the grandfather because of her own bias. We should always approach history with that kind of skepticism  and asking those kinds of questions.  They are still worth writing and worth reading.  

Edited December 4, 2023 by Heartstrings

[freesia]

I have very mixed feelings about needing to pass on every little truth about the past generations. For one thing—it’s never the full picture bc everyone does have a different perspective. For another, why? My mother told me something that happened with her aunt, which was awful and caused the aunt to leave and cut contact. I think about this traumatic event ( not se*ual) but don’t think it adds anything to my understanding of anything family related.  I already knew that my grandmother’s family was dysfunctional. 
 

Now, knowing about the alcoholism is very important particularly as my kids make decisions about whether to drink. Knowing about rage behavior caused by alcoholism? Well, important to understanding why we use gentle voices with grandma( who experienced it), but maybe not necessary to keep passing down. 
 

I’m kind of rambling now mostly bc I’m still trying to figure it out for myself. I’m at the point where I need to start making a decision about handing such things down. 

[knitgrl]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, I know that people are complicated.  I certainly didn't think he was perfect.  But one example:  He was so controlling and abusive he never let my grandmother learn to drive...    That just doesn't click with me.  I saw them interact and even looking back, I never saw her as scared of him.  In fact, I remember my granddad wanting to do things like get her a new coat and she refused to let him saying it would be a waste of money...    

If it matters, I was 14 when my grandmother died and 22 when my grandfather did. 

I knew a woman who died a few years ago at the age of 80-something. She was born in her parents' home, and got married and lived a few houses down the road from where she was born, and never learned how to drive. That didn't stop her from knowing and reveling in all the gossip of everyone both in her neighborhood, and the surrounding area. She knew everything before it happened. As far as I can tell, not driving did not impair her life as she wanted to live it at all.

[TexasProud]

11 minutes ago, freesia said:

 

I’m kind of rambling now mostly bc I’m still trying to figure it out for myself. I’m at the point where I need to start making a decision about handing such things down. 

Nice to know I am not alone. 

[SKL]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

So I guess my issue is partly this:  I am the storyteller. The writer.  I went through the items in my cedar chest and threw a few things away.  But then I wrote out what everything was that was in there:  My other grandfather's navy uniform from WWII along with the story of his combat and letters he wrote his family while he is deployed.

So my dad's father has lots of very cool stories that I was going to write out, but now am I giving just a one-dimensional portrait of him?  When people read this in 100 years is it ok that it isn't completely accurate?   But what is accurate and true????

Storytelling is always weighted based on what is going to inspire the reader or move him/her in the direction the storyteller wants them to move.

It's honest to say "this was a human, with a human balance of strengths, weaknesses, good and bad past choices.  I'm going to flesh out a few of his experiences / aspects that have contributed to his positive influence on the world."

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

So I guess my issue is partly this:  I am the storyteller. The writer.  I went through the items in my cedar chest and threw a few things away.  But then I wrote out what everything was that was in there:  My other grandfather's navy uniform from WWII along with the story of his combat and letters he wrote his family while he is deployed.

So my dad's father has lots of very cool stories that I was going to write out, but now am I giving just a one-dimensional portrait of him?  When people read this in 100 years is it ok that it isn't completely accurate?   But what is accurate and true????

It is accurate and true that he told you that story. That's what you are documenting. His story. If you write out what you were told, then you are truthfully writing his story. You are transcribing his story.  You're not responsible for whether or not the story you were told is completely, 100% true. You are not an investigator. You don't have to prove to anyone that his story is accurate.

Other perspectives and facts may be documented in other places, but it is not your responsibility to seek them out or to determine whether or not those facts are true. You don't have to include them because they aren't part of his story. You aren't writing a dissertation, where you would be responsible for conducting original research. You're writing down his story so that future generations can have a small snapshot of the event, item or person you are writing about. Historians don't expect one diary entry or letter to tell the full story of anything and neither will the generations that follow in your footsteps.

 

[TexasProud]

Ok, thank you.  And I guess part of the reason it upset me is that I had some crappy stuff in my childhood.  (As most people do).  But now my happy memories are being tainted and so saying how wonderful he was and how he was such a safe place in the chaos isn't really true, since he caused some of the chaos I was in....  

Not sure if that makes sense.  Just frustrating and making me truly sad and being on here instead of being productive like I should be...

[elegantlion]

As a historian, I agree that you're going to get different stories from different people. Doing original historical research requires that you recognize one piece of information is only part of the puzzle. Your story and their story, experience if you would like, are parts of the puzzle that tell us about people. To tell the story of your grandfather, you don't have to document every iota of his life. it will have your experience with him throughout its telling and that's okay. 

My parents had a wonderful and loving marriage. My mom learned to drive when I did. My dad was controlling about cars, they were expensive, and she was a stay-at-home mom. We didn't do a lot of extracurriculars as a kid because my mom didn't drive and my dad worked nights. If you ask me about my childhood and lack of being able to do things, I'll give you one story. If you ask me about my parents marriage, I'll give you another. Both are true, one has more negative parts than the other. 

Part of telling the stories of our family is knowing how to frame them. For instance, this story is your experience or the stories from the items in the trunk. No one should be expecting the whole detailed day-to-day account of another falliable human. 

Would I dig into family skeleton-in-the closet type stories. No, probably not. 

[TexasProud]

Ok, another facet of it. Part of my cousin's criticism is that no one was allowed to talk about any bad stuff. It all had to be positive, so people tiptoed around my dad's mental struggles.  I know that my mom also didn't like to do so.  She was definitely an enneagram 7.  Heck, I didn't find out the reason she and my dad got married is because they thought she was pregnant until a few weeks after she died.  (That totally made sense to me and not sure why I didn't question their very quick marriage...well, since I was their first kid nearly 5 years later, I assumed that couldn't be the reason.)  Anyway, if I just decline to discuss the family history because I really just want to keep my happy memories am I not doing the same thing?  It is just easier not to know and keep things happy, which is really what I prefer.

[wintermom]

15 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, thank you.  And I guess part of the reason it upset me is that I had some crappy stuff in my childhood.  (As most people do).  But now my happy memories are being tainted and so saying how wonderful he was and how he was such a safe place in the chaos isn't really true, since he caused some of the chaos I was in....  

Not sure if that makes sense.  Just frustrating and making me truly sad and being on here instead of being productive like I should be...

I think that some stories, whether they are true, partly true or completely false, do not need to be shared, certainly when there is no need to do so. They aren't going to benefit anyone, so why spread what is essentially gossip, other than to prove that spreading gossip is often hurtful to others who cannot defend themselves. 

You can be a positive storyteller and stick to the positive, more inspirational stories, if you wish. That is certainly a legacy I'd want to pass on to my children and grandchildren. 

There are other platforms you could use to delve into the morals, failures and fragile aspects of humanity, rather than a detailed family tree. 

[klmama]

Some things just aren't anyone else's business.  Unless there is a legal or medical reason to share the negative info, it's fine to keep it to yourself.  

[SKL]

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Anyway, if I just decline to discuss the family history because I really just want to keep my happy memories am I not doing the same thing?  It is just easier not to know and keep things happy, which is really what I prefer.

"... Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."  Matthew 6:34

Each life will have more than sufficient troubles without dragging a previous generation.

I think sometimes we use past evils as a distraction from present things we can actually address.

I don't see it about keeping things happy.  Do you know a single human who isn't currently struggling with enough?

[TexasProud]

We are heading to the place I grew up tomorrow to look at an RV...  I was going to go back to some of my favorite haunts.... none of them exist anymore including an over 100 year old family farm/ cafe.  They sold it.  A subdivision and gas station are there now. 😞 I doubt I will even recognize anything...  I know my grandfather's neighborhood is no longer for teachers, ordinary people that earned a small living. Instead, these small houses have been demolished and turned into multi-million dollar homes.  

[Frances]

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, thank you.  And I guess part of the reason it upset me is that I had some crappy stuff in my childhood.  (As most people do).  But now my happy memories are being tainted and so saying how wonderful he was and how he was such a safe place in the chaos isn't really true, since he caused some of the chaos I was in....  

Not sure if that makes sense.  Just frustrating and making me truly sad and being on here instead of being productive like I should be...

Working through feelings is being productive.

[Frances]

7 hours ago, TexasProud said:

One of which is my dad became "bipolar" so late (junior high)that they thought he had been sexual abused by a scout master or someone else, but they never really knew...  WHAT????? But that is what the brothers wondered.   THe allegations against my grandfather were not sexual...not that he was involved in my dad's personality change but other stuff separately. 
 

Junior high is actually early, not late, for the onset of bipolar. The average age is around 25. So it sounds like they were theorizing about something they didn’t really know much about.

[Spryte]

10 minutes ago, Frances said:

Junior high is actually early, not late, for the onset of bipolar. The average age is around 25. So it sounds like they were theorizing about something they didn’t really know much about.

Just jumping in to agree. My DSS was actually diagnosed fairly early, at 18! Junior high can happen, but it’s extremely early.

[prairiewindmomma]

I think many of us grow up and re-view the world differently with an adult perspective. When we stop and do the emotional work of processing, sometimes some of the shiny wears off a bit. As kids we were wired to stay alive (physically and emotionally) and when we are in more secure circumstances as adults we have more room to fully “see” things. We also have had our own life experiences that add to the depth of our analysis.
 

I think, for me, some of the ugliness I now see helps me understand why people act the way that they did. They aren’t stories that I re-tell and share widely, but I do have a box with documentation that is relevant for genealogy that my kids are welcome to read at some point or not. Many “known” things will be lost to history, and most circumstances discovered deserve a measure of privacy and respect. 
 

I have complex feelings towards some of my family. That’s ok. People are complex. Multiple things can be simultaneously true about a person.

Hugs! 

[TexasProud]

13 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

I have complex feelings towards some of my family. That’s ok. People are complex. Multiple things can be simultaneously true about a person.

Hugs! 

I don't like complex. Sigh.  I have a hard time being ok with that.  I want my memories to be happy. Period. 

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I don't like complex. Sigh.  I have a hard time being ok with that.  I want my memories to be happy. Period. 

Can you tell that to the people trying to drag you into the old drama?  Just tell them you’d rather not know.  

[prairiewindmomma]

If you don't want to know, then put up a boundary around it, "I am in a place where I just need the memories I have of so-and-so to be happy ones. Thanks for offering to tell me, but I'm not in a good place to hear it all right now.....or as Heartstrings put it, "I'd rather not know."

Don't dig if you can't handle discovering not happy things.  That's completely ok.  Leave the past in the past.

 

[kathyl]

nm

Edited May 30 by kathyl

[fairfarmhand]

Knowing some of the not so nice stuff actually encourages me. Because sometimes, I'm terrible. So there's hope that the people I leave behind will remember the good and not only the bad. Of course, I guess they could just zoom in on the awful moments, but what can I do about that?

[Melanie32]

My father in law was a terrible father in many, many ways but has been a great grandfather to my children. My son has a hard time understanding why my husband’s relationship with his father is a bit strained and blames my husband since he sees his grandfather as amazing. I’ve tried to tell him that grandpa wasn’t always this way but I also don’t want to spoil his view of his grandpa so I just leave it alone. 
 

I too feel better about life if I can find a way to think the best of people. I think that’s ok. I just choose to dwell on the good and not focus on the bad even though I know it’s there. I’m not denying reality, just choosing what I want to keep the focus  on. 
 

[Eos]

This is a serendipitous thread as I have been thinking a lot about my grandfather and his stories in our family.  Briefly, we were told stories that made him a hero, and the more I read about his impact on the world, the less it's true.  I have all of his papers and I toyed with years about writing his heroic story, but I can't.  It's not that simple.  Some parts of it are definitely courageous and others are actively wrong, some are just incompetent. 

I've decided that rather than write the story we were told, I'd like to write a graphic novel about my own progression from grandfather-as-hero to grandfather-as-complicated.  I would use pictures that he took and quotes about him from other peoples' books, but the focus would be on my own knowledge unfolding.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Eos

[Scarlett]

13 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Knowing some of the not so nice stuff actually encourages me. Because sometimes, I'm terrible. So there's hope that the people I leave behind will remember the good and not only the bad. Of course, I guess they could just zoom in on the awful moments, but what can I do about that?

Ditto. I think that is why I love King David.  

[Scarlett]

I am very close to a woman who is the middle of 5 children.  Their childhood experiences are dramatically different.  In addition the mom’s experiences with her husband is even more dramatically different  than his reputation with the rest of the world. 
 

Life is like that.  

[Pam in CT]

re graphic novel with narrative arc from receiving hagiography to receiving more-complicated

2 hours ago, Eos said:

This is a serendipitous thread as I have been thinking a lot about my grandfather and his stories in our family.  Briefly, we were told stories that made him a hero, and the more I read about his impact on the world, the less it's true.  I have all of his papers and I toyed with years about writing his heroic story, but I can't.  It's not that simple.  Some parts of it are definitely courageous and others are actively wrong, some are just incompetent. 

I've decided that rather than write the story we were told, I'd like to write a graphic novel about my own progression from grandfather-as-hero to grandfather-as-complicated.  I would use pictures that he took and quotes about him from other peoples' books, but the focus would be on my own knowledge unfolding.

That is a wonderful idea for a storyline, and the graphic novel format would be a wonderful vehicle to convey it.  I hope you go for it.

 

There's a sense is which this tension, and the tendency for some of us to incline towards focusing on the good parts while others seek to understand and convey the more-complicated has been played out writ large, with projects like 1619 vs the 1776 backlash to it.  Both orientations are understandable and human.  And when the subject is relatives, particularly still-living relatives, I think it's fine to err towards focusing on the more-laudable narrative highlights and personal characteristics. (The balance plays out differently when the subject is school curriculum, where it's not merely incomplete history but affirmatively dangerous to whitewash the complicated so as to present hagiography.)

[TexasProud]

16 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Can you tell that to the people trying to drag you into the old drama?  Just tell them you’d rather not know.  

It is just one person.  My dad's family is VERY small. 3 brothers. Two of the brothers had one kid, my parents had 2.  My two cousins only had one kid and my sister only has one kid.   It is just one causing that messaged me when I wrote my post about my dad.  Yes, easily, sidestepped.  But then I am only confirming her narrative that this side of the family only wants to talk about the good things and ignore the bad.

[Pam in CT]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Ditto. I think that is why I love King David.  

it's instructive that the Bible itself shows tons and tons and tons of more-complicated.

[TexasProud]

Don't quote please.

I guess part of it is that my husband isn't doing well mentally right now and that always throws me off.  There is a HUGE mess at his former practice and it is going to cost us A LOT of money probably.  I'm angry because of the choices these people are making.  My husband is regretting ever signing this agreement, but it made sense at the time and we cannot forecast the future. Plus, he signed it withing 6 months of his head bleed.  I agreed to it as well, but I really didn't understand everything.  The lawyer at the time didn't really educate us either.  So lots of self blame going on with my husband.

I just don't have the bandwidth to deal with this news.  But I cannot unknow it now.  Yes, I can take steps to not encourage the conversation, but in some ways the damage is done. It just adds to more chaos. 

[maize]

Regarding the stories we pass down:

I've seen research that telling stories of courage and overcoming in family and community history gives the younger generation a stronger sense of self and is protective of mental health. We humans, communal and narrative creatures that we are, need stories. We especially need stories that allow us to view ourselves, our families, and our communities as strong and good and capable of overcoming challenges. 

That doesn't mean we need to idealize our past, but it does mean there is great value in focusing on the good and on arcs involving growing and overcoming. Those are the narratives from which we draw hope for ourselves.

[Pam in CT]

re narrative arcs of resilience, redemption and getting better over time

1 hour ago, maize said:

Regarding the stories we pass down:

I've seen research that telling stories of courage and overcoming in family and community history gives the younger generation a stronger sense of self and is protective of mental health. We humans, communal and narrative creatures that we are, need stories. We especially need stories that allow us to view ourselves, our families, and our communities as strong and good and capable of overcoming challenges. 

That doesn't mean we need to idealize our past, but it does mean there is great value in focusing on the good and on arcs involving growing and overcoming. Those are the narratives from which we draw hope for ourselves.

Absolutely.  In literature and in life I am an absolute sucker for stories of by-slow-degrees redemption. 

And the older I get the more deeply I believe that adherence to the adage "when we know better, we can do better" is a freaking superpower. It enables self-forgiveness, it de-escalates small errors and allows us to see them properly sized; it makes apologies easier in many circumstances, and creates a bit of space to enable the extension of grace to others.

[Lecka]

This is just me personally….  I would take the comments as a way to project the “cause” of the issues away from the family and away from it being anything in the family tree.

 

Saying “or something” is so vague, it’s such a guess.  It is so different than saying there is a suspicion of a certain person or situation.  
 

I think it’s very human.  

[TechWife]

15 hours ago, TexasProud said:

It is just one person.  My dad's family is VERY small. 3 brothers. Two of the brothers had one kid, my parents had 2.  My two cousins only had one kid and my sister only has one kid.   It is just one causing that messaged me when I wrote my post about my dad.  Yes, easily, sidestepped.  But then I am only confirming her narrative that this side of the family only wants to talk about the good things and ignore the bad.

If there is no ongoing harm, then there is no problem confirming her narrative.
 

“Yes, we prefer to talk about and pass down the good stories and fun memories of our family.”

“We don’t want to speculate about things that we don’t have direct knowledge of and since we don’t have  a reason, a desire, or a way to research that subject, it seems like gossip to me.  Did you ever ask gramps about school? He told me a funny story about him & his best friend getting into trouble for…” 

Another thing to keep in mind is this may be bothering her on a deeper level. Maybe learning or knowing this information is bringing related memories to the forefront of her mind and they are effecting her negatively. It honestly doesn’t sound like you need to expend energy on this right now, you need to be available for your own husband & the stressors there. Down the road, if you have the ability and desire to address it and cousin is still bringing it up when you meet, it might be time to have a private, caring chat with cousin. “I do remember you talking about that before. It’s interesting that it’s been several months and you are still bringing it up. What is it about this information that bothers you? Do you know of any of our other cousins were affected by this? As far as you know, is anyone in danger that would be helped by knowing this? Then, depending on the answers you get, you can mention  “I see you’re still worried. Is there anyone you talk to that could help you think through  this?”Jelp them find a counselor if needed at that point. But I’ll reiterate here - wait until both you have some reserves built up and you want to address it. Or could be a while & that’s okay.’

[TechWife]

18 hours ago, Eos said:

…

I've decided that rather than write the story we were told, I'd like to write a graphic novel about my own progression from grandfather-as-hero to grandfather-as-complicated.  I would use pictures that he took and quotes about him from other peoples' books, but the focus would be on my own knowledge unfolding.

I think this is a fantastic idea. Tell your story. The format intrigues me. 

[TexasProud]

3 hours ago, TechWife said:

If there is no ongoing harm, then there is no problem confirming her narrative.
 

“Yes, we prefer to talk about and pass down the good stories and fun memories of our family.”

“We don’t want to speculate about things that we don’t have direct knowledge of and since we don’t have  a reason, a desire, or a way to research that subject, it seems like gossip to me.  Did you ever ask gramps about school? He told me a funny story about him & his best friend getting into trouble for…” 

Another thing to keep in mind is this may be bothering her on a deeper level. Maybe learning or knowing this information is bringing related memories to the forefront of her mind and they are effecting her negatively. It honestly doesn’t sound like you need to expend energy on this right now, you need to be available for your own husband & the stressors there. Down the road, if you have the ability and desire to address it and cousin is still bringing it up when you meet, it might be time to have a private, caring chat with cousin. “I do remember you talking about that before. It’s interesting that it’s been several months and you are still bringing it up. What is it about this information that bothers you? Do you know of any of our other cousins were affected by this? As far as you know, is anyone in danger that would be helped by knowing this? Then, depending on the answers you get, you can mention  “I see you’re still worried. Is there anyone you talk to that could help you think through  this?”Jelp them find a counselor if needed at that point. But I’ll reiterate here - wait until both you have some reserves built up and you want to address it. Or could be a while & that’s okay.’

LOL, I don't think we will ever meet in person.  I have only seen her in person maybe 5 times over my life.  She is 15 years or more younger than I am.  I think the last time I saw her in person was when the other cousin got married a decade ago.  I have no more family occasions where we will meet. Her dad died during Covid (though of lung cancer, not Covid and he never smoked and worked at a university). I won't attend the funeral of her mother. She didn't come to any of my parents' funerals.  We message on Facebook now a couple of times a year. In fact, this latest exchange was the largest we have ever had.

Part of it was she said my grandfather was a rageaholic and that her dad was as well.  My dad certainly was, so that doesn't really surprise me about grandpa when he was younger.  Now her dad really surprises me because of the three brothers he was the mild mannered one.  My favorite one.  The one that didn't tell me what I should do or what was the best thing to do like my other uncle. Instead, he asked really good questions.  But apparently, he was the only one who would take my grandfather on and they would have screaming matches out in the yard.  

Which certainly makes the story I have told make sense: I was 22 and they were moving my grandfather out of his house to Ohio.  My dad was a mess and in one of his moods.  I knew it was because he was super sad and that he would probably never see his dad again, but he didn't know how to talk about it.  My cousin's dad came to me and told me I needed to get my dad under control NOW.  I knew it wasn't a good idea to talk to him in this mood, but I obeyed.  My dad started screaming at me, cussing about my mom (they were recently divorced).  I tried to leave, but he followed me around the house screaming.  Finally, I stopped. I faced him and pushed him and said, "You will never, ever talk about my mom that way or talk to me this way." I got in my car and fled to my in-laws an hour away.  When I told that story in therapy, it was the first time I had all of these questions: Why in the world didn't my uncle talk to my dad himself? Why was I put in the middle?  Why didn't my two cousins do anything to stop my dad when he was chasing me around the house?   Now it makes sense. That was normal behavior in their family.  My dad never yelled at me again after that, and he never spoke poorly about my mom again either.  I will never forget the look of surprise on his face. 

I could be a rageaholic as well when my children were small... though only when I was by myself with them and only when something else was bothering me that I had absolutely no control over.  If my husband had seen any of those, he would have been completely appalled. By the time the boys were in mid elementary, I had figured out what I was doing and it stopped. Plus, to be honest, I knew they were old enough to tell their father. 

That was one thing that I have struggled with as far as my husband goes. I have never seen him yell. Ever. He is always calm, cool and collected. If I started to get excited in a disagreement, he would have me lower my voice and tone it down. When things happen overseas, he never gets rattled.  I wrote a poem once about how my husband was this calm, clear, pool you could see all the way to the bottom.  I was more like  a murky pool with a volcano at the bottom of it.  I had all of these emotions swirling around.  That said, I have learned to make it a calm pool.  I haven't lost my temper since...  the early two thousands maybe.  And again, the only people I ever yelled at were my own children.  (Sad, but true.) As a teacher, I was very calm and collected. 

All that to say, I don't know her well enough to speak about her going to counseling. I certainly wouldn't do that on Facebook messenger. 🙂