Covid and preventing blood clots afterward — latest info?

[Spryte]

I’m sure there are studies about this, so if anyone has links, I’d love them.

DH and I have lost three people to blood clots and related issues post-Covid, in the last 9 months. 2 of those people were in their early 50s (51 and 53).

This has me wondering how to prevent blood clotting issues after Covid. Is it luck? Genetics? General health? Were we going to lose our friends anyway or did Covid hasten the clotting issues?

If one has Covid, and seemingly recovers, what can one do to prevent this issue?

I have not had Covid. I do, however, have hyper coagulation, so I have some skin in this game, and I want to be around for my kids. 

Any recommendations from those in the know?
 

ETA: This isn’t meant to be woe is me, but more factual. I can’t figure out how to say we’ve lost so many people without sounding sad and sort of pitiable. Ugh. I really want to know if there’s something we should be watching for, when we finally do catch Covid. I will be asking my doc about this topic as well.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Spryte

[freesia]

I am so sorry. That is a lot of loss. 

[Melissa in Australia]

So sorry

Huge hugs

[Bambam]

That is a lot of loss. I am so sorry.

Our doctor advised us to take a baby aspirin daily for 30 days after we tested positive last fall. I have no idea if that advice is still given or not. I assumed, but did not verify with her, that this was to help prevent clotting. 

[Corraleno]

You could try supplementing with Omega 3s (fish/krill/algae oil). This article sums up the effects on blood clotting, and if you want to read the original studies, all the links should be live:

A meta-analysis of 15 randomized controlled trials in humans revealed that, compared to a placebo, omega-3 supplementation significantly reduced platelet aggregation in participants with poor health status. Since increased platelet activity predicts adverse cardiovascular events, the authors concluded that high-risk patients with cardiovascular disease or diabetes may benefit from omega-3 therapy. However, not just people with poor health may benefit; several studies have also been performed in healthy populations.

A large population-based study conducted in Norway found that a high weekly fish intake was associated with a 22% lower risk of venous thromboembolism compared to those who consumed low fish and no omega-3 supplementation. Adding fish oil supplements strengthened the inverse effect leading to a 48% lower risk.

Another study conducted in healthy males found that 3 grams of fish oil supplementation daily for four weeks provoked a hypocoagulant effect, which varied depending on fibrinogen levels. Furthermore, omega-3s have been found to reduce whole blood viscosity, improve red blood cell flexibility, and decrease plasma viscosity and systolic blood pressure. Other studies in healthy individuals found that omega-3s enhanced anticoagulant properties by reducing platelet activation, adhesiveness, and aggregation.

Both EPA and DHA improve coagulating outcomes by incorporating into platelet phospholipids at the expense of other fatty acids, such as the omega-6 fatty acid arachidonic acid (AA). This replacement may help reduce platelet aggregation by reducing AA-derived procoagulant metabolites and competing for enzymes required for activation. Furthermore, EPA and DHA get incorporated into neutrophils and red blood cells at the expense of other fatty acids, leading to decreased whole blood viscosity and increased red blood cell flexibility, reducing the risk of thrombosis.

Finally, although evidence indicates that omega-3 intake can reduce clotting, current literature suggests that no additional bleeding risks exist. A 2007 publication concluded that omega-3s do not increase the risk of clinically significant bleeding, even in patients treated with antiplatelet or antithrombotic medications. Likewise, a 2018 study confirmed these findings, concluding that omega-3 supplementation did not increase the risk of perioperative bleeding and unexpectedly significantly reduced the number of units of blood transfused.

[KSera]

There have been a couple more recent studies I’ve seen on this, but I’ll have to come back later to look them up. Commenting so I remember to do so. The risks of clots and heart attacks after having had Covid is one of my main concerns as well. 

[BeachGal]

There is a tendency to clot after a Covid infection and it can persist for awhile. The clots are very unusual. The spike protein remnants appear to be playing a role.

Some people are taking nattokinase and/or lumbrokinase supplements which can break down the tangles of fibrin. I take lumbrokinase (Double Wood brand) first thing every morning and then drink only black coffee for the first few hours. Buluoke brand is probably the best but is pricey.

https://pharmd.substack.com/p/frequency-asked-questions-nattokinase

Another idea is to use a red/near infrared light on the front and back of your torso each day, 5-10” each side, ideally one session in the morning and then another in the evening but one is better than none. Dr. Seheult explains how this works in this video. He has other videos about using light after Covid as well.

I use a light made by Hooga every morning while I’m reading my emails. I just stick it under my t-shirt and stop around 10”. Pretty easy. The light is well made and not too expensive. $250-300- ish, iirc?

[BeachGal]

Regarding fish oil supplements, get the triglyceride form not the ethyl esters. Carlson’s Very Finest is triglyceride, I think.

[pitterpatter]

Good to know. I am Day 2 into my second bout of Covid (both times upon returning from vacation 😒), and have been taking a baby aspirin each day intuitively for the clotting reason. I did wonder this morning whether I should research it...just in case it wasn't the right thing to do.

ETA: This doesn't entirely relate, but I read earlier today that one's chance of greater lifetime complications from Covid increases each time you contract it. Even among the otherwise healthy. I was surprised, as I thought it would be the opposite. I also had all the shots and boosters last year and Covid after a cruise in December 2022. Plus, I think I was like the last one in our area to quit masking. Wash my hands throughout the day, and especially before eating. So annoyed by it all.

2 hours ago, Bambam said:

Our doctor advised us to take a baby aspirin daily for 30 days after we tested positive last fall. I have no idea if that advice is still given or not. I assumed, but did not verify with her, that this was to help prevent clotting. 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by pitterpatter

[Spryte]

12 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

There is a tendency to clot after a Covid infection and it can persist for awhile. The clots are very unusual. The spike protein remnants appear to be playing a role.

Some people are taking nattokinase and/or lumbrokinase supplements which can break down the tangles of fibrin. I take lumbrokinase (Double Wood brand) first thing every morning and then drink only black coffee for the first few hours. Buluoke brand is probably the best but is pricey.

https://pharmd.substack.com/p/frequency-asked-questions-nattokinase

Another idea is to use a red/near infrared light on the front and back of your torso each day, 5-10” each side, ideally one session in the morning and then another in the evening but one is better than none. Dr. Seheult explains how this works in this video. He has other videos about using light after Covid as well.

I use a light made by Hooga every morning while I’m reading my emails. I just stick it under my t-shirt and stop around 10”. Pretty easy. The light is well made and not too expensive. $250-300- ish, iirc?

Interesting! I actually take Bulouke lumbrokinase twice daily for my hypercoagulation issue. I double the dose when sick, so possibly doubling for a few months after an infection would be good (for me). It is pricey, though. With two of us on it daily, we spend a lot on that each month.

I also have one of the small infrared lights, but wow, it’s awkward to use. 
 

[Spryte]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

You could try supplementing with Omega 3s (fish/krill/algae oil). This article sums up the effects on blood clotting, and if you want to read the original studies, all the links should be live:

A meta-analysis of 15 randomized controlled trials in humans revealed that, compared to a placebo, omega-3 supplementation significantly reduced platelet aggregation in participants with poor health status. Since increased platelet activity predicts adverse cardiovascular events, the authors concluded that high-risk patients with cardiovascular disease or diabetes may benefit from omega-3 therapy. However, not just people with poor health may benefit; several studies have also been performed in healthy populations.

A large population-based study conducted in Norway found that a high weekly fish intake was associated with a 22% lower risk of venous thromboembolism compared to those who consumed low fish and no omega-3 supplementation. Adding fish oil supplements strengthened the inverse effect leading to a 48% lower risk.

Another study conducted in healthy males found that 3 grams of fish oil supplementation daily for four weeks provoked a hypocoagulant effect, which varied depending on fibrinogen levels. Furthermore, omega-3s have been found to reduce whole blood viscosity, improve red blood cell flexibility, and decrease plasma viscosity and systolic blood pressure. Other studies in healthy individuals found that omega-3s enhanced anticoagulant properties by reducing platelet activation, adhesiveness, and aggregation.

Both EPA and DHA improve coagulating outcomes by incorporating into platelet phospholipids at the expense of other fatty acids, such as the omega-6 fatty acid arachidonic acid (AA). This replacement may help reduce platelet aggregation by reducing AA-derived procoagulant metabolites and competing for enzymes required for activation. Furthermore, EPA and DHA get incorporated into neutrophils and red blood cells at the expense of other fatty acids, leading to decreased whole blood viscosity and increased red blood cell flexibility, reducing the risk of thrombosis.

Finally, although evidence indicates that omega-3 intake can reduce clotting, current literature suggests that no additional bleeding risks exist. A 2007 publication concluded that omega-3s do not increase the risk of clinically significant bleeding, even in patients treated with antiplatelet or antithrombotic medications. Likewise, a 2018 study confirmed these findings, concluding that omega-3 supplementation did not increase the risk of perioperative bleeding and unexpectedly significantly reduced the number of units of blood transfused.

Thank you! This is exactly what I was hoping to find. Something with a tangible action we can take, even if it’s imperfect.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Spryte

[Spryte]

16 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

Good to know. I am Day 2 into my second bout of Covid (both times upon returning from vacation 😒), and have been taking a baby aspirin each day intuitively for the clotting reason. I did wonder this morning whether I should research it...just in case it wasn't the right thing to do.

 

I hope you feel better soon! Baby aspirin seems like an intuitive solution. 

 

2 hours ago, Bambam said:

That is a lot of loss. I am so sorry.

Our doctor advised us to take a baby aspirin daily for 30 days after we tested positive last fall. I have no idea if that advice is still given or not. I assumed, but did not verify with her, that this was to help prevent clotting. 

Thanks! That’s good to know that your doc advised it. I think I might mention it to my mom, too.

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, BeachGal said:

There is a tendency to clot after a Covid infection and it can persist for awhile. The clots are very unusual. The spike protein remnants appear to be playing a role.

Some people are taking nattokinase and/or lumbrokinase supplements which can break down the tangles of fibrin. I take lumbrokinase (Double Wood brand) first thing every morning and then drink only black coffee for the first few hours. Buluoke brand is probably the best but is pricey.

https://pharmd.substack.com/p/frequency-asked-questions-nattokinase

Another idea is to use a red/near infrared light on the front and back of your torso each day, 5-10” each side, ideally one session in the morning and then another in the evening but one is better than none. Dr. Seheult explains how this works in this video. He has other videos about using light after Covid as well.

I use a light made by Hooga every morning while I’m reading my emails. I just stick it under my t-shirt and stop around 10”. Pretty easy. The light is well made and not too expensive. $250-300- ish, iirc?

Do you do this for covid reasons?

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, pitterpatter said:

Good to know. I am Day 2 into my second bout of Covid (both times upon returning from vacation 😒), and have been taking a baby aspirin each day intuitively for the clotting reason. I did wonder this morning whether I should research it...just in case it wasn't the right thing to do.

ETA: This doesn't entirely relate, but I read earlier today that one's chance of greater lifetime complications from Covid increases each time you contract it. Even among the otherwise healthy. I was surprised, as I thought it would be the opposite. I also had all the shots and boosters last year and Covid after a cruise in December 2022. Plus, I think I was like the last one in our area to quit masking. Wash my hands throughout the day, and especially before eating. So annoyed by it all.

 

I hope you feel better soon.

[kathyl]

I had Covid a year ago.  For a few months afterwards, I took aspirin whenever I felt like I needed it because I had read about the blood clot thing.  I also took it pretty easy for a while, too.  There just seemed to be a 'recovery period' that shouldn't be ignored, imo.  All the slight weird side effects went away slooowly.  But I remember thinking that this is not the kind of illness that I just suffered through for a couple of weeks and then immediately resumed normal life, ignoring any weird physical feelings.

(unvaccinated)

Edited August 24, 2023 by kathyl

[Spryte]

26 minutes ago, kathyl said:

I had Covid a year ago.  For a few months afterwards, I took aspirin whenever I felt like I needed it because I had read about the blood clot thing.  I also took it pretty easy for a while, too.  There just seemed to be a 'recovery period' that shouldn't be ignored, imo.  All the slight weird side effects went away slooowly.  But I remember thinking that this is not the kind of illness that I just suffered through for a couple of weeks and then immediately resumed normal life, ignoring any weird physical feelings.

(unvaccinated)

I am glad you are fully recovered now!

I think listening to your body was very, very smart.

Our friend that passed this month (blood clot) was not the type to take it easy. Ever. We’ve known her since 2000, and she just goes and goes and goes. Workaholic might be a good word. Brilliant career path. So many awards. But also not the healthiest. And I have no idea about her vaccination status, though most likely she was.

Our friend that passed in Nov — again, I would not say he had a healthy lifestyle. We knew him for 30+ years, he was at our wedding, but again — Type A workaholic type, maybe.

My FIL’s blood clot in May was immediately after Covid. At 83, he was frail to start. 

So all three people I’m thinking of had their own issues that must have impacted their recovery.

[Mom_to3]

3 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I am glad you are fully recovered now!

I think listening to your body was very, very smart.

Our friend that passed this month (blood clot) was not the type to take it easy. Ever. We’ve known her since 2000, and she just goes and goes and goes. Workaholic might be a good word. Brilliant career path. So many awards. But also not the healthiest. And I have no idea about her vaccination status, though most likely she was.

Our friend that passed in Nov — again, I would not say he had a healthy lifestyle. We knew him for 30+ years, he was at our wedding, but again — Type A workaholic type, maybe.

My FIL’s blood clot in May was immediately after Covid. At 83, he was frail to start. 

So all three people I’m thinking of had their own issues that must have impacted their recovery.

That experience is quite concerning! Thank you for sharing...

I wonder how safe it is to take these supplements if one bruises quite easily...

[Halftime Hope]

1) Our primary care doctor who has treated several thousand Covid patients with very good results told us to take regular aspirin (362 mg), not baby aspirin (81mg) for 60 days; be sure to get enteric-coated so it doesn't mess up your stomach.

2) He also recommended 60 days of a good probiotic. I like Seed, but that's just me. His recommendation was "at least 50billion, including bifidobacteria'. 

3) Without his advice, I'd have taken nattokinase, and I think I had read that either serrapeptase or lumbrokinase was better at dissolving the amyloid clots that surgeons are finding. I wish I remembered better, but that will give you some search terms to use if you want to spend the time on PubMed.

 

 

[Spryte]

1 minute ago, Mom_to3 said:

That experience is quite concerning! Thank you for sharing...

I wonder how safe it is to take these supplements if one bruises quite easily...

A good functional medicine doc will know about lumbrokinase (which is in Bulouke) and be able to tell you if it’s a good idea for you. My DH and I both take it daily, and have for years, but for specific reasons. It’s good for hypercoagulation and biofilms, among other things.

 

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, pitterpatter said:

Good to know. I am Day 2 into my second bout of Covid (both times upon returning from vacation 😒), and have been taking a baby aspirin each day intuitively for the clotting reason. I did wonder this morning whether I should research it...just in case it wasn't the right thing to do.

ETA: This doesn't entirely relate, but I read earlier today that one's chance of greater lifetime complications from Covid increases each time you contract it. Even among the otherwise healthy. I was surprised, as I thought it would be the opposite. I also had all the shots and boosters last year and Covid after a cruise in December 2022. Plus, I think I was like the last one in our area to quit masking. Wash my hands throughout the day, and especially before eating. So annoyed by it all.

 

I hope you have a mild case and that you feel better very soon!

[bookbard]

I am cautious about aspirin. Here's some recent research which is mixed: Aspirin and P2Y12 inhibitors in treating COVID-19 - European Journal of Internal Medicine (ejinme.com) I think because it's over the counter we think it's ok, but it can have real consequences in terms of brain bleeds etc.

I will say the person I know who ended up with issues post covid a) took aspirin and b) didn't stop at all - used the week off sick to refloor a room. Ended up with weeks and weeks of inflammation and pain.

 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, pitterpatter said:

aking a baby aspirin each day

This past time when I had covid I again had heart symptoms and the doc/nurse practitioner wanted me to take aspirin. It wasn't just baby aspirin though. She wanted the full dose iirc. If you know you have hypercoagulation anyway, I'd probably do the aspirin AND the omega3 for the other suggestion. I take omega 3 anyway. 

[kbutton]

There might some information in these archives from the North American Thrombosis Society: https://thrombosis.org/covid-19-updates/patient-resources/

A lot of people have blood clot risks they don’t know about or have a family history of blood clots that is not sufficiently explained. Knowing your family medical history is very helpful if it’s available to you.

[goldberry]

18 hours ago, Corraleno said:

You could try supplementing with Omega 3s (fish/krill/algae oil). This article sums up the effects on blood clotting, and if you want to read the original studies, all the links should be live:

A large population-based study conducted in Norway found that a high weekly fish intake was associated with a 22% lower risk of venous thromboembolism compared to those who consumed low fish and no omega-3 supplementation. Adding fish oil supplements strengthened the inverse effect leading to a 48% lower risk.

 

 

Thanks for these amazing links!  This one about the Norway study just goes to the main page though.  I'm collecting these for a specific reason : )

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, goldberry said:

 

Thanks for these amazing links!  This one about the Norway study just goes to the main page though.  I'm collecting these for a specific reason : )

I believe this is the study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24744307/

"Participants who ate fish ≥3 times/wk had 22% lower risk of VTE than those who consumed fish 1-1.9 times/wk (multivariable HR: 0.78; 95% CI: 0.60, 1.01; P = 0.06). The addition of fish oil supplements strengthened the inverse association with risk of VTE. Participants who consumed fish ≥3 times/wk who additionally used fish oil supplements had 48% lower risk than those who consumed fish 1-1.9 times/wk but did not use fish oil supplements (HR: 0.52; 95% CI: 0.34, 0.79; P = 0.002)." 

[ktgrok]

Metformin!!!! It is also shown to reduce chances of Long Covid symptoms by about 40%. But specifically regarding clots:

In conclusion, metformin treatment in COVID-19 patients with DM was associated with lower markers of inflammation, renal ischemia, and thrombosis, and fewer hospitalized days and intubation requirement. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8764325/#:~:text=In conclusion%2C metformin treatment in,required to support these findings.

 

[Mom_to3]

28 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Metformin!!!! It is also shown to reduce chances of Long Covid symptoms by about 40%. But specifically regarding clots:

In conclusion, metformin treatment in COVID-19 patients with DM was associated with lower markers of inflammation, renal ischemia, and thrombosis, and fewer hospitalized days and intubation requirement. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8764325/#:~:text=In conclusion%2C metformin treatment in,required to support these findings.

 

Since metformin is not standard treatment, I wonder who can actually get this. I suspect the urgency to act has gone now to adopt this as a standard covid treatment (so that primary care docs feel comfortable prescribing off label) that the pandemic is "over" - and perhaps, unlike with Paxlovid, there is not enough of a profit margin? It's an old drug.

[Spryte]

1 hour ago, Mom_to3 said:

Since metformin is not standard treatment, I wonder who can actually get this. I suspect the urgency to act has gone now to adopt this as a standard covid treatment (so that primary care docs feel comfortable prescribing off label) that the pandemic is "over" - and perhaps, unlike with Paxlovid, there is not enough of a profit margin? It's an old drug.

Yes, wondering the same — would we need a doc willing to Rx it off label?

But how interesting, too! Considering the diabetes connection.

 

[Corraleno]

Berberine is available OTC and has very very similar effects to metformin. Copying & pasting from the Omicron thread:

On 3/8/2023 at 10:22 AM, Corraleno said:

The recent study on metformin's effectiveness in preventing long covid (especially if given within 4 days) made me wonder if berberine (an OTC supplement) would also be effective against covid, since studies have shown it to be as effective as metformin for T2 diabetes.

So I searched to see if any studies had been done on berberine, and found this extremely thorough (and very very technical) summary of the research on berberine's effectiveness against a whole host of viruses and it's potential application for covid:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10787-022-01080-1

Although there haven't been many studies specifically on berberine and covid, the ones that do exist are positive, and there are many more studies on berberine with other viral illnesses; the linked article goes over the specific mechanisms by which various viruses cause damage and the ways in which berberine interferes with those mechanisms and mitigates the damage. A lot of it is frankly over my head — like I may not know what the "ABC pathway" is, but the authors say that X study showed this is the mechanism by which covid (or other viruses) cause Y problem, and Z study shows that berberine effectively blocks that pathway.

Given the importance of starting metformin as quickly as possible with covid, and the fact that it can take days to even test positive let alone get a doctor's appointment, I'm adding berberine to my "covid kit," along with NAC. The article suggests 1-1.5g/day, and most brands seem to sell capsules in the 1-1.2g range.

[Corraleno]

Also bringing over from a previous thread some links to studies on the greater bioavailability of dihydroberberine compared to regular berberine. (Note: the dihydro form is harder to find and tends to be much more expensive.)

On 6/24/2023 at 4:11 PM, Corraleno said:

Small crossover RCT: "These results provide preliminary evidence that four doses of a 100 mg dose of dihydroberberine and 200 mg dose of dihydroberberine produce significantly greater concentrations of plasma berberine across of two-hour measurement window when compared to a 500 mg dose of berberine or a placebo." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8746601/

"A novel BBR derivative, dhBBR, was identified that displayed improved in vivo efficacy in terms of counteracting increased adiposity, tissue triglyceride accumulation, and insulin resistance in high-fat–fed rodents. This effect is likely due to enhanced oral bioavailability" https://diabetesjournals.org/diabetes/article/57/5/1414/13470/Berberine-and-Its-More-Biologically-Available

"These results have demonstrated that BBR derivatives, dhBBR and Di-MeBBR, are superior to BBR in inhibiting inflammation and reducing plaque size and vulnerability." (mouse study) https://translational-medicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12967-014-0326-7

"Intestinal microbiota-mediated metabolism generates lipophilic metabolites, including berberrubine (BRB), an active metabolite with higher distribution volume, and dihydroberberine (DHBBR), a precursor that can deliver BBR into the brain by the redox system."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17425255.2023.2203857

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Corraleno

[BeachGal]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:08 PM, mommyoffive said:

Do you do this for covid reasons?

I suspect spike protein can stick around for a long time. If it’s possible to be asymptomatic, then there would be spike protein circulating about. I don’t think there’s too much risk in taking lumbrokinase so that’s what I’m doing for now. I do take breaks for weeks at a time.

[BeachGal]

Here's a little something about omega 3 fatty acids. After you consume it, it flows in and out of cells for about two weeks. It is an integral part of your cell walls and mitochondria walls, too, sort of like building blocks. If you don’t have enough omega 3s as part of those walls, the “mechanics” embedded on the surface can get wonky and not work well. Too much omega 6 also makes the walls less permeable.

You can test your ratio using a diy test from a place called Omega Quant. The test is sometimes cheaper at Life Extension.

[ktgrok]

17 hours ago, Mom_to3 said:

Since metformin is not standard treatment, I wonder who can actually get this. I suspect the urgency to act has gone now to adopt this as a standard covid treatment (so that primary care docs feel comfortable prescribing off label) that the pandemic is "over" - and perhaps, unlike with Paxlovid, there is not enough of a profit margin? It's an old drug.

This actually was just in the news in June or July, so after the pandemic being "over". It's cheap and safe so I'd think not that hard to get a doctor to prescribe? A quick google has headlines about it from quite a few medical schools and medical centers. https://news.unchealthcare.org/2023/06/study-shows-metformin-lowers-long-covid-risk/

[Terabith]

I really would like to eat fish more often, but I worry about mercury.  I thought the recommendation was twice a week?  

[BeachGal]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

I really would like to eat fish more often, but I worry about mercury.  I thought the recommendation was twice a week?  

Wild Alaskan would be a safer choice than many others. There might be some mercury but should be on the lower side.

Not all fish has good omega 6 to omega 3 ratios. Some are high in omega 6. We usually eat Costco’s canned Alaskan salmon, which is not farmed, and smoked Wild Alaskan salmon from Trader Joe’s.

Mongolians eat meat that is 100% grass fed and they have healthy omega 6 to omega 3 ratios, so it possible to get that from meat. In the US it would be labelled grass fed and grass finished and come from a trustworthy source.

[Corraleno]

5 hours ago, Terabith said:

I really would like to eat fish more often, but I worry about mercury.  I thought the recommendation was twice a week?  

You can get the same Omega 3 benefits without the mercury contamination from krill oil or algae oil, plus there are many plant sources of Omega 3s, like flax, chia, and hemp seeds, walnuts, legumes (including soy), and leafy greens, that are super healthy for multiple reasons beyond just the EFAs. For example, 1 TBL each of chia, flax, and hemp seeds equals ~5g of ALA which, when converted to DHA & EPA, is equivalent to about 2 krill oil capsules (and that's assuming a pretty low conversion rate). Plus the seeds have the added benefits of 7g of protein, 7 g of fiber, nearly half the RDA of magnesium and phosphorus, and nearly 3/4 of the RDA of manganese and Vit K. I add chia, ground flax, and sometimes hemp seeds to oatmeal or smoothies and add hemp seeds to salads, rice, quinoa, and sometimes just sprinkle them over a stir fry or other veg like sesame seeds.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about plant-based Omega 3s — especially from the keto/carnivore crowd, who like to claim that plants are not an adequate source because the human body only converts a tiny % of plant-based ALA to DHA and EPA. There are two significant issues with that: (1) it assumes that only DHA & EPA have benefits and ignores the positive effects of ALA itself, and (2) it ignores the fact that the "inefficiency" of the body's conversion of ALA to EPA/DHA is largely a function of very high levels of inflammatory Omega 6s in the Western diet, which compete for the same enzymes that convert ALA. The "natural" ratio of Omegas 6:3 is about 1:1, but it's closer to 15:1 in a standard, high-inflammatory Western diet. Conversion rates for ALA are actually quite good in the context of a diet with a healthy Omega 6:3 balance.

This excellent academic review of the health effects and conversion rates of ALA discusses many different studies, including large prospective studies, which found really significant reductions in heart disease and mortality in those with the highest consumption of ALA — e.g. "each 1 g/day ALA intake was associated with a 58% lower risk of nonfatal heart attack and a 47% lower risk of CHD." Another study specifically looking at clotting issues found that "Consumption of flaxseed doubled EPA levels in platelets and significantly decreased aggregation response. These results are thought to be beneficial in preventing thrombosis connected to CHD."

https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article/66/6/326/1840653

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Corraleno
plants, not pants

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

You can get the same Omega 3 benefits without the mercury contamination from krill oil or algae oil, plus there are many plant sources of Omega 3s, like flax, chia, and hemp seeds, walnuts, legumes (including soy), and leafy greens, that are super healthy for multiple reasons beyond just the EFAs. For example, 1 TBL each of chia, flax, and hemp seeds equals ~5g of ALA which, when converted to DHA & EPA, is equivalent to about 2 krill oil capsules (and that's assuming a pretty low conversion rate). Plus the seeds have the added benefits of 7g of protein, 7 g of fiber, nearly half the RDA of magnesium and phosphorus, and nearly 3/4 of the RDA of manganese and Vit K. I add chia, ground flax, and sometimes hemp seeds to oatmeal or smoothies and add hemp seeds to salads, rice, quinoa, and sometimes just sprinkle them over a stir fry or other veg like sesame seeds.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about plant-based Omega 3s — especially from the keto/carnivore crowd, who like to claim that plants are not an adequate source because the human body only converts a tiny % of plant-based ALA to DHA and EPA. There are two significant issues with that: (1) it assumes that only DHA & EPA have benefits and ignores the positive effects of ALA itself, and (2) it ignores the fact that the "inefficiency" of the body's conversion of ALA to EPA/DHA is largely a function of very high levels of inflammatory Omega 6s in the Western diet, which compete for the same enzymes that convert ALA. The "natural" ratio of Omegas 6:3 is about 1:1, but it's closer to 15:1 in a standard, high-inflammatory Western diet. Conversion rates for ALA are actually quite good in the context of a diet with a healthy Omega 6:3 balance.

This excellent meta-analysis on the health effects and conversion rates of ALA discusses many different studies, including large prospective studies, which found really significant reductions in heart disease and mortality in those with the highest consumption of ALA — e.g. "each 1 g/day ALA intake was associated with a 58% lower risk of nonfatal heart attack and a 47% lower risk of CHD." Another study specifically looking at clotting issues found that "Consumption of flaxseed doubled EPA levels in platelets and significantly decreased aggregation response. These results are thought to be beneficial in preventing thrombosis connected to CHD."

https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article/66/6/326/1840653

 

I do eat a heaping tablespoon of both flax and chia seeds in my oatmeal each morning.  I haven't added hemp, because I'm pretty full with even a pretty small serving of oatmeal with the seeds, but I can work on adding hemp somewhere else.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, BeachGal said:

Not all fish has good omega 6 to omega 3 ratios. 

This is a really important point — when demand for salmon skyrocketed after studies showed that Omega 3s were protective against heart disease, production of farmed salmon also skyrocketed and now more than 90% of salmon sold in the US comes from huge fish farms. Farmed salmon are basically the aquatic version of battery chickens: crammed in tiny confined pens that cause stress and lead to parasites (like sea lice) and infections, requiring high doses of anti-parasite and antibiotic meds  — and then they are fed the same soy-meal crap that factory farmed chickens get, plus dyes to turn their gray flesh pink since they are not eating any of the natural foods that make wild salmon pink. That leads to high Omega 6 and low Omega 3 levels, which completely eliminates the advantage of eating salmon!

Edited August 26, 2023 by Corraleno

[Not_a_Number]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:29 PM, kathyl said:

I had Covid a year ago.  For a few months afterwards, I took aspirin whenever I felt like I needed it because I had read about the blood clot thing.  I also took it pretty easy for a while, too.  There just seemed to be a 'recovery period' that shouldn't be ignored, imo.  All the slight weird side effects went away slooowly.  But I remember thinking that this is not the kind of illness that I just suffered through for a couple of weeks and then immediately resumed normal life, ignoring any weird physical feelings.

Yeah, I had lots of weird side effects. They lasted about 3 months. And my thyroid numbers were messed up after, too. That lasted longer.

I’d probably not overfocus on any specific adverse outcomes and just take it easy post-COVID. Especially if you feel off in any way. And definitely seek medical attention if you don’t feel well in any way. 

[Not_a_Number]

The other thing I’ll say is that it’s really hard to disentangle it all. Almost everyone I know has had COVID now. Quite a few more than once. That means that every adverse health event they’re having is now by definition post-COVID, whether it’s related or not.

This is not to say that it’s not a serious illness — I had a harder time with it than most — but that you probably can’t disentangle the effects of COVID and bad luck and will probably do nothing except give yourself anxiety by trying. So… I guess I’ll say that it’s good to figure out some possible remedies, but that I know that it’s easy to start spinning in place over this stuff, and it’s probably not worth it.

Fingers crossed you don’t get COVID, anyway, and that if you do, you have an easy case without complications!!

[kathyl]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I had lots of weird side effects. They lasted about 3 months. And my thyroid numbers were messed up after, too. That lasted longer.

I’d probably not overfocus on any specific adverse outcomes and just take it easy post-COVID. Especially if you feel off in any way. And definitely seek medical attention if you don’t feel well in any way. 

Yeah, I think the weirdness lasted 4-6 months.  I first noticed it when I decided it was time to go outside and weed the neglected flower beds.  In Texas, in September.  I was leaning over weeding in the heat, and I felt my heart start doing odd things.  I stopped and went back inside.  I also took some Bayer regular aspirin.  The garden just sat until late fall or early winter.  And even then, I worked at a snail's pace until I was sure I was back to normal.  I've never had to do that with any other illness.

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by kathyl

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

You can get the same Omega 3 benefits without the mercury contamination from krill oil or algae oil, plus there are many plant sources of Omega 3s, like flax, chia, and hemp seeds, walnuts, legumes (including soy), and leafy greens, that are super healthy for multiple reasons beyond just the EFAs. For example, 1 TBL each of chia, flax, and hemp seeds equals ~5g of ALA which, when converted to DHA & EPA, is equivalent to about 2 krill oil capsules (and that's assuming a pretty low conversion rate). Plus the seeds have the added benefits of 7g of protein, 7 g of fiber, nearly half the RDA of magnesium and phosphorus, and nearly 3/4 of the RDA of manganese and Vit K. I add chia, ground flax, and sometimes hemp seeds to oatmeal or smoothies and add hemp seeds to salads, rice, quinoa, and sometimes just sprinkle them over a stir fry or other veg like sesame seeds.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about plant-based Omega 3s — especially from the keto/carnivore crowd, who like to claim that plants are not an adequate source because the human body only converts a tiny % of plant-based ALA to DHA and EPA. There are two significant issues with that: (1) it assumes that only DHA & EPA have benefits and ignores the positive effects of ALA itself, and (2) it ignores the fact that the "inefficiency" of the body's conversion of ALA to EPA/DHA is largely a function of very high levels of inflammatory Omega 6s in the Western diet, which compete for the same enzymes that convert ALA. The "natural" ratio of Omegas 6:3 is about 1:1, but it's closer to 15:1 in a standard, high-inflammatory Western diet. Conversion rates for ALA are actually quite good in the context of a diet with a healthy Omega 6:3 balance.

This excellent meta-analysis on the health effects and conversion rates of ALA discusses many different studies, including large prospective studies, which found really significant reductions in heart disease and mortality in those with the highest consumption of ALA — e.g. "each 1 g/day ALA intake was associated with a 58% lower risk of nonfatal heart attack and a 47% lower risk of CHD." Another study specifically looking at clotting issues found that "Consumption of flaxseed doubled EPA levels in platelets and significantly decreased aggregation response. These results are thought to be beneficial in preventing thrombosis connected to CHD."

https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article/66/6/326/1840653

 

I don't remember details of the study, but I remember Dr Brooke Goldner saying that estrogen helps the conversion of ALA to DHA/EPA so much that women almost never have trouble converting it.  Men can have trouble because the same enzyme that converts it preferentially binds to Omega 6.  But if you're not eating a bunch of processed oils it should be easy even for men.  She also said that anecdotally when she'd had patients switch from fish or krill oil to flax or chia seeds or oil they stopped having trouble with bleeding. As if your body knew how much of it to convert for optimal health without the bleeding risk of extra. 

I typically have a very hard time believing anecdotal reports but I'm becoming a true believer with Dr Goldner.  Primarily because when I started learning about her work 4-5 years ago she didn't know as much and now she's not only learned more, there've been a lot more independent studies that have come out backing up her experience.

[Corraleno]

14 minutes ago, Katy said:

I don't remember details of the study, but I remember Dr Brooke Goldner saying that estrogen helps the conversion of ALA to DHA/EPA so much that women almost never have trouble converting it. 

Yes, multiple studies have confirmed this, here is a summary from the review I linked upthread:

"Studies in women of reproductive age showed a substantially greater (2.5-fold) rate of conversion of ALA to EPA than that measured in healthy men. Thus, the ability to produce long-chain metabolites is gender dependent. It appears that women have a lower partitioning of ALA to β-oxidation, leaving more of it available for conversion to EPA.^16,20 Other possible explanations include a direct effect of estrogen on conversion rates.^16,21 Gender differences have also been observed in the conversion rates of ALA to DHA. In males it is estimated that only 0.5–4% of ALA is converted to DHA while in females the rates are thought to be as high as 9%.^18,19 It is hypothesized that demands for DHA by the fetus during pregnancy may stimulate female physiology to more readily synthesize this fatty acid."

[Jaybee]

20 hours ago, Terabith said:

I do eat a heaping tablespoon of both flax and chia seeds in my oatmeal each morning.  I haven't added hemp, because I'm pretty full with even a pretty small serving of oatmeal with the seeds, but I can work on adding hemp somewhere else.

I haven't been eating oatmeal lately because it is just too hot. But when I do, I often add a spoonful of this to it: https://www.walmart.com/ip/BetterBody-Foods-Organic-Super-Seeds-Chia-Seeds-Flaxseed-Meal-Hemp-Hearts-16-oz/320657810?athcpid=320657810&athpgid=AthenaItempage&athcgid=null&athznid=si&athieid=v0_eeMTM5Ljg4LDUxMDkuNjQsMC4wMzAwODc3MDg2MTYwNTc2NjQsMC41Xw&athstid=CS004&athguid=HancIJX64-Xyo693fZs2uD-dMe0VWtno1InA&athancid=987247583&athena=true&athbdg=L1100