U.S. residents/voters of good will...come in, pls.

[SquirrellyMama]

2 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

What is EK? Early Kindergarten? Extended Kindergarten? We don't have that here. Kids do preschool and then full day K. Many younger boys with summer birthdays start K at age 6.

It is between Preschool and Kindergarten. Not sure why it is called Early Kindergarten since they still have to go through Kindergarten. I am told by parents of kids who went through it that it is essentially a year of Kindergarten with a much smaller class. But, like I said, they still have to go through Kindergarten after EK. It didn't make a lot of sense to me. 

[Heartstrings]

1 minute ago, SquirrellyMama said:

It is between Preschool and Kindergarten. Not sure why it is called Early Kindergarten since they still have to go through Kindergarten. I am told by parents of kids who went through it that it is essentially a year of Kindergarten with a much smaller class. But, like I said, they still have to go through Kindergarten after EK. It didn't make a lot of sense to me. 

Some places call that Junior Kindergarten. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, kokotg said:

This. MY idea of what is absolutely essential knowledge and reading for my American kids is no longer allowed to be taught in Florida. 

So much of what's occurring now, IMO, is related to the lack of shared history. Maybe my next thread will be about what that shared history should look like. I think our crowd-sourced history would FAR surpass anything we could develop individually. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Dmmetler]

2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

This. MY idea of what is absolutely essential knowledge and reading for my American kids is no longer allowed to be taught in Florida. 

Or Tennessee. It's not just Florida. Florida just is the one getting all the press. There are a bunch of states trying to race to the bottom in a lot of ways. 

[Murphy101]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I totally agree - even as I choose not to put some works in front of my own kids. I want them to exist and am happy for folks to read them and find value in them. I just choose not to promote/share them. It's the difference between govt/collective/and personal action for me.

The problem when it comes to public schools is that parents want to make the same decisions that you and I make but they don’t want to put the time into making informed decisions. So they base it off whatever hysteria they hear elsewhere. And they for the most part are often only slightly literate at all themselves.  This is really hard bc I do think a community should have a shared say in how their children are educated in a shared education system in that community. Especially when those parents have little to zero say in opting out of that for their children. 
 

In my state, pending the district, 50-70% of high school graduates for a very long time have been graduating at such a low level of general literacy that they have to take 2 semesters of remedial maths and reading/writing at the community colleges before they can start higher education. This is true in trade schools too. All the trade schools have a supplement program they pull students out of whatever (carpentry, machining, cosmetology, computers whatever…) to give them enough basic maths/reading/writing to function in that program. The vast majority of students need these in order to progress in that trade or at that community college. 

So how do you explain without insulting someone that they literally are not literate enough to understand the value of the literature list? 

And no, I’m not saying literacy and intelligence are the same. I know they are not bc I’ve met some flat out genius people who couldn’t read. But specific to literature lists/bans, this disparity of literacy experience in a community IS a problem when trying to come to a solution.  

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

The problem when it comes to public schools is that parents want to make the same decisions that you and I make but they don’t want to put the time into making informed decisions. So they base it off whatever hysteria they hear elsewhere. And they for the most part are often only slightly literate at all themselves.  This is really hard bc I do think a community should have a shared say in how their children are educated in a shared education system in that community. Especially when those parents have little to zero say in opting out of that for their children. 
 

In my state, pending the district, 50-70% of high school graduates for a very long time have been graduating at such a low level of general literacy that they have to take 2 semesters of remedial maths and reading/writing at the community colleges before they can start higher education. This is true in trade schools too. All the trade schools have a supplement program they pull students out of whatever (carpentry, machining, cosmetology, computers whatever…) to give them enough basic maths/reading/writing to function in that program. The vast majority of students need these in order to progress in that trade or at that community college. 

So how do you explain without insulting someone that they literally are not literate enough to understand the value of the literature list? 

And no, I’m not saying literacy and intelligence are the same. I know they are not bc I’ve met some flat out genius people who couldn’t read. But specific to literature lists/bans, this disparity of literacy experience in a community IS a problem when trying to come to a solution.  

I'm gonna tell you what I do (which won't work for everyone) b/c my personality...

I tell the cold, hard, uncomfy TRUTH.

When I speak to people within my own communities of interest I say... THEY ARE LYING TO/PACIFYING YOU. YOUR KIDS ARE NOT PREPARED. I AM NOT YOUR ENEMY! BOOKS ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY! It's totally a hunger games finale redux.

I've NEVER had anyone lash out at me for that. Instead, they direct their ire at those creating substandard conditions, as they should.

ETA: TOMATOES!! I NEED TO CAN TOMATOES!

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Murphy101]

13 minutes ago, pinball said:

There are more than enough books available to kids of all ages that are appropriate for that age to last throughout their entire childhoods.

It’s ridiculous to throw around words like censored and banned when what is actually happening is nothing of the sort.

I think two things:

one is that banned implies it’s illegal to print it and it currently is not illegal to print anything. 

two censored is accurate if a school for example refuses to allow students to use an unabridged version of Tom Sawyer bc they don’t want the original wording to be used in class. Censorship implies a government mandate and that’s exactly how a government/public school is functioning in this scenario. This is especially true in areas where the public school library might be the only library or where the public library is effectively also the school library. 

7 minutes ago, kokotg said:

This. MY idea of what is absolutely essential knowledge and reading for my American kids is no longer allowed to be taught in Florida. 

Can you give specific examples?  

[Halftime Hope]

22 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I'd also point out that making a standardized curriculum to save time for teachers isn't what's going on in literature classes. It's not about helping the poor, overworked teachers, it's about ensuring that students are never exposed to ideas that certain segments of the population find objectionable. Like the facts that gay people and racism exist.

Clearly our lived experiences in school districts across the US are very, very different from one another.

However, if a child watches any TV or engages on social media, they will not lack exposure to positively-portrayed gay relationships nor to racism being addressed and condemned. 

[maize]

I don't know how we would go about creating a common foundational knowledge core for history and literature. We live in a diverse, pluralistic society. History is narrative, point-of-view, story telling. How do you go about establishing a compilation that would be accepted by the multiple points of view?

I'm not arguing against it, I'm just not sure it is possible.

Every country I have lived in has had a (current at the time I was there) mainstream narrative regarding their history. It is not a narrative that encompasses every people group or point of view in the country. It usually represents primarily a majority culture point of view. Few countries are trying to balance as many different perspectives as we are in the United States. Where we now stand, we've rejected the notion of embracing a majority culture or a majority-culture historical narrative. That's a complex, I think even unprecedented place for a society to be. It's not going to be easy to navigate. There's a ton of tension between different views that very much want *their* perspective to become the new established culture perspective, but I don't think there's enough of an actual majority behind any of them to do that. Somehow we need to learn to actually accept living in a world with a multiplicity of cultures in balance. Including the ones we disagree with or don't like or think are just plain wrong.

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by maize

[prairiewindmomma]

After reading The Sum of Us by Heather McGee (about how racism affects all of us) and also What’s Wrong with Kansas , I don’t see the current book bans as something that came from good parents pushing porn out of schools. I think people are being told by the media that that is what is happening. I think most people agree that x rated materials don’t belong in school libraries and most people agree that parents should have some influence in schools (the two defenses that always come up when book banning comes up). But, if you follow the funding dollars behind the candidates and organizations pushing for book bans, it’s pretty clear that there is a National push from a few key conservative think tanks to do this. It’s part of a coordinated push by those same organizations to place judiciaries, fund certain candidates, etc. 

[Terabith]

My youngest discovered during a tornado drill that all the books on human reproduction and sex are sequestered behind librarian’s desk where kids can’t access them. At a high school.  

[pinball]

6 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

es up). But, if you follow the funding dollars behind the candidates and organizations pushing for book bans, it’s

Id much rather begin at the beginning and follow the funding behind people who advocate for inappropriate materials in schools

[AmandaVT]

We had a group of students at the school I work at request and create a small LBGTQ display in our library. Our school board got wind of it and forced the librarian to take it down because "where is the straight section?" I live in VERMONT. We had a tricky time finding a social studies curriculum for elementary school that hadn't been whitewashed to adhere to FL's new laws. Meanwhile, almost every single student in the school has unfettered access to their smartphone with no parental controls and school Chromebooks that they spend so.much.time figuring out how to get around the security controls to look up things they shouldn't be and playing first person shooter games they find that haven't yet been blocked by the security software. It is hard to see. 

[Pawz4me]

15 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

 

So how do you explain without insulting someone that they literally are not literate enough to understand the value of the literature list? 

And no, I’m not saying literacy and intelligence are the same. I know they are not bc I’ve met some flat out genius people who couldn’t read. But specific to literature lists/bans, this disparity of literacy experience in a community IS a problem when trying to come to a solution.  

My kids are well past school aged, so I'm out of touch with what's going on around here in that regard (other than what I read in the papers or hear on the local news, of course).

But the above is what I all-too-frequently encounter with adults who are riled up about the issue. They are, by and large, the type who think a James Patterson novel is the epitome of excellent writing. They would be extremely hard pressed to understand a book like Beloved.They believe the covers of the romance books at Walmart are pornographic. But they seem to think the violence in Patterson's books isn't a problem at all (although from what I understand--I've never read one of his books--much of it involves a degree of sexual perversion). I do not understand that lack of critical thinking skills, and I don't know how to talk to them w/o coming off as condescending.

[Terabith]

The scary thing is that our school board has not been taken over by the moms of Liberty or whatever insanity the school district next door labors over.  But we’re still hiding books about sex, which kids desperately need to know about, from high school students.  

[pinball]

19 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

school for example refuses to allow students to use an unabridged version of Tom Sawyer

Link to where this is actually happening, please

[prairiewindmomma]

2 minutes ago, pinball said:

Id much rather begin at the beginning and follow the funding behind people who advocate for inappropriate materials in schools

Have fun!! 😁

[kokotg]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

 

Can you give specific examples?  

I consider reading books like Beloved that look unflinchingly at the history of racism in America to be essential. My kids know that racism was indeed woven into the founding of America and is still with us--including lots of ideas from the AP African American history class banned in Florida. I also already gave the specific example of Shakespeare being banned in one district in Florida for fear of crossing the new laws. The Don't Say Gay law is commonly interpreted to mean teachers cannot acknowledge the existence of LGBTQ people at all, including mentioning their own family members--certainly not teaching any literature with any portrayals of gay people--Florida recently banned the teaching of AP psychology because of material pertaining to sexuality and gender, although it looks like they might be backing off on that (but not before lots of schools have already removed it from course offerings this year). Here's a quote from an AP lit teacher on my Facebook group:

Quote

We teachers in Florida need the country to understand what we are dealing with under the new law, HB1069. We are threatened with (up to) prison for giving the wrong book to students, talking about inappropriate subjects in class, and of course respecting transgender or gender neutral students.

Districts are individually interpreting a response to the law, mostly from a fear base. A neighboring district published a list of 120 books banned for high school; my district won’t put anything in writing but has banned all Shakespeare and The Crucible outright. Everything else must be approved, including classroom libraries, before use. School starts next week and I have no approved materials for AP.

 

[SKL]

1) Not a fan of censorship, except I don't want rated X material in public schools or accessible to children in public libraries.  And actual assignments should be sensitive to the ages of the students.

2) Huge amounts of information / literature have been censored in public schools for our entire lifetimes, most notably religious communications, which most parents actually want their kids to learn in some way or other.  Families have managed to find a way.  Families can find a way to teach whatever else they want their kids to learn.

3) The real crisis is in the lack of basic education, which prevents a large % of kids from ever being able to meaningfully access real literature, get a decent job, and participate in our democracy.  Focusing on the tiny sliver of questioned literature is so elitist.  If you're honest and if your kid has the skills to read those books, your kid is not being prevented.

4) Based on the above, I consider this to be yet another manufactured crisis.

[Pam in CT]

re lack of shared history

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

For me, one of the biggest issues is the lack of shared history. I feel like the U.S. has many histories, passed down through the years, but they're not shared and they've never been reconciled into one, complete, narrative. The fight over books and courses and history feels very much like an attempt to prevent us from making the effort to develop a shared, national, narrative history that includes and reflects all. I feel like if we had some shared foundational knowledge, we'd be better able to fend off attacks on our freedom/civil society.

Some years ago (but long after the Good Friday accords) my mother and I visited Belfast; and I've remembered ever since an exhibit of art and poetry and prayers arising out a conflict resolution workshop across the neighborhood "peace walls" that still are closed every night.  (I've since read Padraig O'Tuama's wondrous memoir and I have to believe, now, it was the workshop he references there; but I did not know his name or work, then.)

Anyway, one of the refrains that I read at that exhibit that has turned over in my mind ever since is something along the lines of "we have a shared history, but we do not have shared stories.  And until we do, we will inevitably remain in conflict."

I think about that a lot.

[kokotg]

30 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

Clearly our lived experiences in school districts across the US are very, very different from one another.

However, if a child watches any TV or engages on social media, they will not lack exposure to positively-portrayed gay relationships nor to racism being addressed and condemned. 

It's not my lived experience, it's what I've learned from listening to teachers who are teaching in affected districts. I guess "they don't need to learn that in school because they can just watch TV" is...an answer, though. 

[Sneezyone]

Religious education/indoctrination is not in doubt in the US. What’s always been in question is WHO gets to decide WHICH religious traditions deserve space/recognition. I can’t think of a single Judeo-Christian text that’s been banned or circumscribed for consideration in American public schools. Can you think of a Muslim or Hindu or any other religious text that is given as much deference as the Bible in policy and practice? Is the US a pluralistic country or a country solely developed by and for WASPs? This is a critical question, I think.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Murphy101]

Just now, Terabith said:

My youngest discovered during a tornado drill that all the books on human reproduction and sex are sequestered behind librarian’s desk where kids can’t access them. At a high school.  

😂 I can picture the shared discovery of it now. 

That said. Basic biology101 should include reproductive facts.  As a Catholic, that’s why I won’t buy Christian Science materials in high school.  It shouldn’t include more than biology to respect the way parents want to raise their families, but basic biology should be in the biology101 textbooks.

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

1) Not a fan of censorship, except I don't want rated X material in public schools or accessible to children in public libraries.  And actual assignments should be sensitive to the ages of the students.

2) Huge amounts of information / literature have been censored in public schools for our entire lifetimes, most notably religious communications, which most parents actually want their kids to learn in some way or other.  Families have managed to find a way.  Families can find a way to teach whatever else they want their kids to learn.

3) The real crisis is in the lack of basic education, which prevents a large % of kids from ever being able to meaningfully access real literature, get a decent job, and participate in our democracy.  Focusing on the tiny sliver of questioned literature is so elitist.  If you're honest and if your kid has the skills to read those books, your kid is not being prevented.

4) Based on the above, I consider this to be yet another manufactured crisis.

I’m 100% with you on #3.   A focus on #3 would solve all the problems.

I don’t think the other topics are not concerning. They are. But I agree they are a deflection and distraction from the real education problem - which is that kids are flat out not getting a basic literate education. 

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Religious education/indoctrination is not in doubt in the US. What’s always been in question is WHO gets to decide WHICH religious traditions deserve space/recognition. I can’t think if a single Judeo-Christian text that’s been banned or circumscribed for consideration in American public schools. Can you think of a Muslim or Hindu or any other religious text that is given as much difference as the Bible in policy and practice? Is the US a pluralistic country or a county developed by and for WASPs? This is a critical question, I think.

My kids' 12th grade AP booklist (public school) is 100% novels from other countries or cultures, and reflect a variety of religious beliefs.  Which I love.

I haven't read all the books on the list, but one of them  is The Kite Runner, which I absolutely do not recommend for kids (not on religious grounds but because of the type of violence that is the turning point).  Since it sounds like a fun read, I discouraged my kids from choosing that one.  They chose Native Son and Dreaming in Cuban for their summer reading assignments.

Edited August 6, 2023 by SKL

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

😂 I can picture the shared discovery of it now. 

That said. Basic biology101 should include reproductive facts.  As a Catholic, that’s why I won’t buy Christian Science materials in high school.  It shouldn’t include more than biology to respect the way parents want to raise their families, but basic biology should be in the biology101 textbooks.

I’m 100% with you on #3.   A focus on #3 would solve all the problems.

I don’t think the other topics are not concerning. They are. But I agree they are a deflection and distraction from the real education problem - which is that kids are flat out not getting a basic literate education. 

How do  you define basic literature education? I’ve found through that years that many here exclude authors and perspectives that I find critical.

[Halftime Hope]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

It's not my lived experience, it's what I've learned from listening to teachers who are teaching in affected districts. I guess "they don't need to learn that in school because they can just watch TV" is...an answer, though. 

OK, split hairs about the way I worded the sentence: school districts and their policies are very, very different from one place to another in the US. What we are experiencing, or our teachers, or our neighbors are, can be very, very different. (See math discussion above.)

Similarly, I have a valid point: given the ubiquitous nature of social media and new media, and even TV, I don't think we need to worry about kids not having exposure to a spectrum of human relationships. Similarly, they can see current-day struggles with racism worked out in the news, daily. That's all I'm saying; in general, kids are not living under rocks.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

My kids' 12th grade AP booklist (public school) is 100% novels from other countries and reflect a variety of religious beliefs.  Which I love.

I haven't read all the books on the list, but one of them  is The Kite Runner, which I absolutely do not recommend for kids (not on religious grounds but because of the type of violence that is the turning point).  Since it sounds like a fun read, I discouraged my kids from choosing that one.  They chose Native Son and Dreaming in Cuban for their summer reading assignments.

Native Son, FTR- is a domestic, black American novel.

[Murphy101]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Religious education/indoctrination is not in doubt in the US. What’s always been in question is WHO gets to decide WHICH religious traditions deserve space/recognition. I can’t think if a single Judeo-Christian text that’s been banned or circumscribed for consideration in American public schools. Can you think of a Muslim or Hindu or any other religious text that is given as much difference as the Bible in policy and practice? Is the US a pluralistic country or a country solely developed by and for WASPs? This is a critical question, I think.

It’s not a critical question but a fact that the US was solely developed by and for WASPs.  The inclusion of others was primarily begrudgingly and sparingly tolerated or not tolerated for reasons of state necessity.

Whether it STAYS that way or becomes more pluralistic or something else is the critical question. 🤷‍♀️

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Halftime Hope said:

OK, split hairs about the way I worded the sentence: school districts and their policies are very, very different from one place to another in the US. What we are experiencing, or our teachers, or our neighbors are, can be very, very different. (See math discussion above.)

Similarly, I have a valid point: given the ubiquitous nature of social media and new media, and even TV, I don't think we need to worry about kids not having exposure to a spectrum of human relationships. Similarly, they can see current-day struggles with racism worked out in the news, daily. That's all I'm saying; in general, kids are not living under rocks.

I hear you, and is it NOT the place if public education to reflect, not advance, the complexity of American life?

[SKL]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Native Son, FTR- is a domestic, black American novel.

Right, I corrected my post as I meant other countries / cultures.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

It’s not a critical question but a fact that the US was solely developed by and for WASPs.  The inclusion of others was primarily begrudgingly and sparingly tolerated or not tolerated for reasons of state necessity.

Whether it STAYS that way or becomes more pluralistic or something else is the critical question. 🤷‍♀️

I don’t think it’s a question of whether but how it evolves to reflect increasing diversity and storytelling. It already has changed. 

[SKL]

And I think it's interesting that when I was in high school, 12th grade "college prep" English was English Literature based.  My kids' AP English is multicultural literature based.

We also were not required to take any world history or geography in middle or high school, while these are now required courses in public school.

[kokotg]

6 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

OK, split hairs about the way I worded the sentence: school districts and their policies are very, very different from one place to another in the US. What we are experiencing, or our teachers, or our neighbors are, can be very, very different. (See math discussion above.)

 

I wasn't trying to split hairs; I was clarifying...I'm certainly not claiming (I don't think anyone is) that every school district in the country is doing these kinds of things. My kids are homeschooled, but I'd be surprised if this stuff were going on in my own school district at the moment. That doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't be concerned about it happening elsewhere.

[Heartstrings]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

And I think it's interesting that when I was in high school, 12th grade "college prep" English was English Literature based.  My kids' AP English is multicultural literature based.

I know it’s different everywhere, but that makes sense to me.  All of my college literature offerings were on World Literature. Since AP lit is meant to replace that credit, it makes sense for it to also be around the same theme.    

[Murphy101]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

How do  you define basic literature education? I’ve found through that years that many here exclude authors and perspectives that I find critical.

I said basic LITERACY which is not the same as literature. Literacy would be the foundation of ability in math and reading and writing.

Whether they read what you or I consider to be worthy literature is far less important to me than whether they CAN read it and comprehend it. Seriously. Over half that graduate literally cannot read and comprehend a book such as Beloved or Tom Sawyer.

Whether someone learns algebra from Saxon matters less to me than whether or not they can make change or calculate a tip or figure out how much carpet to buy for their house or understand basic bookkeeping or many other things. Basic algebra and geometry is basic math literacy.

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I said basic LITERACY which is not the same as literature. Literacy would be the foundation of ability in math and reading and writing.

Whether they read what you or I consider to be worthy literature is far less important to me than whether they CAN read it and comprehend it. Seriously. Over half that graduate literally cannot read and comprehend a book such as Beloved or Tom Sawyer.

Whether someone learns algebra from Saxon matters less to me than whether or not they can make change or calculate a tip or figure out how much carpet to buy for their house or understand basic bookkeeping or many other things. Basic algebra and geometry is basic math literacy.

I haven’t found that the majority of high school graduates are illiterate. Have you? Is there data to support that the majority of graduates are illiterate or is this a talking point? Math is another elephant. I have all the feels about that but the broader question is, and want to keep re-centering: is this who we are/is this who we want to be?

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, PaxEtLux said:

 Why can't the district/State/whatever provide a set of, say, 30 books for 10th grade English teachers could choose from, and a bunch of essay prompts for each of those?

I don't think it should be the job of the state legislature to do that.

[Pawz4me]

3 minutes ago, Ellie said:

I don't think it should be the job of the state legislature to do that.

I believe she meant a group of teachers within a given district or state.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

My daughter’s sixth grade reading list for this upcoming year in a very conservative Christian school contains a number of diverse books and some even contain profanity.  It’s actually a really solid list of well written books.

My seventh grade nephew’s reading list in a Florida public school is….not.

A few months ago we witnessed a horrific car accident with multiple fatalities that literally happened a car length in front of us.  I am talking body parts lying on the road next to my car where my children sat watching the whole thing.  Then their dad showed up on the first ambulance, and my car was blocked in unable to move so again they continued watching. So now they were also concerned about Dad possibly getting hit by a car on the highway.  For the next few days, I found my older kids reading hard books. Bridge to Terabithia. The Giver. The later Harry Potter books in the series. Olive’s Ocean.  Fallen Angels by Walter Dean Myers. Books that deal with hard themes, but they gave my kids words to describe what they had seen and put some of it in context.  Sexually explicit at their ages? No, but books that just plainly deal with hard topics and themes, even if there is some profanity sprinkled in? Those books are so important to so many kids who’s lives contain hard things.

 

Thank you for sharing. I think the dichotomy between the education we can offer at home, or through less restrictive schools, and our most extreme areas is going to be an issue.

[Heartstrings]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

aven’t found that the majority of high school graduates are illiterat

I think the truly illiterate ones drop out before graduation,   I do see high school graduates with less literacy ability than I would think necessary. The number of kids in remedial colleges courses speaks to that.  They aren’t college ready, which I think high school grade should be.  There’s also the ever present statistic that only around 30% of high school graduates score  “proficient” on whatever test they use.  That’s been pretty static for the last decade or more.  
So while high school grads can read and write for the most part it’s at a much lower skill level, not enough to tackle Beloved.   

[Frances]

2 hours ago, PaxEtLux said:

It reminds me of our situation with the IRS, where the IRS knows how much tax we should owe, but never tells us outright -- they ask us to compute our tax, and if we compute too low a number, we get in trouble.

The IRS only knows before tax returns are filed in those cases where all income comes from reportable sources like wages, bank interest income, etc. Even things like who can claim a dependent child are not straightforward in some cases. They don’t know business deductions, charitable contributions, etc. until returns are filed. Any there have been numerous attempts in Congress to let the IRS compute taxes, at least for simple cases, and either bill and/or send pre-filled forms, but they are always defeated due to the tax industry lobby (the same ones responsible for much of the complexity in the tax code) and those who want to defund the IRS and/or give it less ability to audit and collect.

[Murphy101]

30 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I haven’t found that the majority of high school graduates are illiterate. Have you? Is there data to support that the majority of graduates are illiterate or is this a talking point? Math is another elephant. I have all the feels about that but the broader question is, and want to keep re-centering: is this who we are/is this who we want to be?

Over half of those that apply to trades or colleges need basic remedial maths/English/reading from those institutions.  That’s not half of all graduates. Just the half trying to better themselves.

The official numbers for supposedly all of Oklahoma are that 1 in 5 Oklahomans are functionally illiterate. The standard for what that means varies by either can’t read at a 3rd grade level or a 5th grade level.

Here is the first link I found. But seriously the literacy problem in America is dismal. Any search can pull up plenty of information.  The main problem is that in daily interaction it can be difficult to know who is literate and who is not.  Because literacy is not a reflection of intellect.  I’ve met some very smart people who live thinking they are idiots bc they can’t write well or do basic maths but were too ashamed to ask for help.  But every day they struggle and the thing is they don’t even know they are struggling bc it’s just their life. 

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1998/05/14/1-in-5-adult-oklahomans-functionally-illiterate-study-reports/62281555007/

Edited August 6, 2023 by Murphy101

[Ting Tang]

I'm pretty conservative, and I can think of one particular book that I do not personally believe belongs in a school library.  Book bans in schools have come from both liberals and conservatives over the years.  In general, I do not support them from either side.  I suppose reading propaganda could brainwash a child, but I think that is more likely to happen on the Internet. 

I totally agree on the lack of a shared history narrative.  That requires time and piecing together resources.  In a homeschool setting, we have a bit more freedom and time.  

I have been thinking about my nephew, who is public schooled.  Roald Dahl books were too much for him.  My 6th grade teacher was allowed to read them to us in class, though.  My homeschooled son enjoyed them.  I think kids read a lot of twaddle these days, and they are forced to analyze it. Yawn.  Give them something a little bit edgy---they'll read it!  

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Over half of those that apply to trades or colleges need basic remedial maths/English/reading from those institutions.  That’s not half of all graduates. Just the half trying to better themselves.

The official numbers for supposedly all of Oklahoma are that 1 in 5 Oklahomans are functionally illiterate. The standard for what that means varies by either can’t read at a 3rd grade level or a 5th grade level.

Here is the first link I found. But seriously the literacy problem in America is dismal. Any search can pull up plenty of information.  The main problem is that in daily interaction it can be difficult to know who is literate and who is not.  Because literacy is not a reflection of intellect.  I’ve met some very smart people who live thinking they are idiots bc they can’t write well or do basic maths but were too ashamed to ask for help.  But every day they struggle and the thing is they don’t even know they are struggling bc it’s just their life. 

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news/1998/05/14/1-in-5-adult-oklahomans-functionally-illiterate-study-reports/62281555007/

I agree. These are important distinctions. It means they need more content to be successful in that sphere, not that they’re incapable of being successful. It’s an indictment of the status quo/system, not the students. My larger question is weather we are focusing on those things that will help students be prepared for and successful in whatever pursuits they want or whether we’re so invested in othering that we cannot and will not pursue what works *because* it levels the playing field.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I don't know how we would go about creating a common foundational knowledge core for history and literature. We live in a diverse, pluralistic society. History is narrative, point-of-view, story telling. How do you go about establishing a compilation that would be accepted by the multiple points of view?

I'm not arguing against it, I'm just not sure it is possible.

Every country I have lived in has had a (current at the time I was there) mainstream narrative regarding their history. It is not a narrative that encompasses every people group or point of view in the country. It usually represents primarily a majority culture point of view. Few countries are trying to balance as many different perspectives as we are in the United States. Where we now stand, we've rejected the notion of embracing a majority culture or a majority-culture historical narrative. That's a complex, I think even unprecedented place for a society to be. It's not going to be easy to navigate. There's a ton of tension between different views that very much want *their* perspective to become the new established culture perspective, but I don't think there's enough of an actual majority behind any of them to do that. Somehow we need to learn to actually accept living in a world with a multiplicity of cultures in balance. Including the ones we disagree with or don't like or think are just plain wrong.

 

The US is an unprecedented country and needn’t rely solely on other precedents to chart the path forward. Indeed, the history of the world is replete with insular countries that refused to learn/pivot suffering great falls. I’m confident that should an effort be made, it could be done.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[BusyMom5]

Maybe I will come across as a book banner, but I have thought for a LONG time that books should have ratings just like movies and video games do.  Every program on TV will give the rating and why " Rated P-13, nudity and violence "  so then parents can decide if that's okay or not.  Why are books not the same?  I have picked up books before and was totally disgusted- I wish they had a rating to warn me!  I don't want to read a gay romance book- not my thing.  Knowing in advance,  I wouldn't have picked it.  I don't have time to look through every book my kids read, I don't even preview my own books.  I tried to check on the Good Sense Media website with my oldest,  but she would read 15 books a week!  

In my book-rating program, I would also have categories for different levels of violence- like Hunger Games or Matilda- both include violence,  but one is very cartoonist, the other realistic. I don't think this would prevent kids from reading inappropriate books, but it would give parents and schools a place to start from.  Plenty of kids are still watching horror movies and playing that Auto Theft game with the prostitutes in it, but at least there is a warning on them for the parents paying attention.

 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

Maybe I will come across as a book banner, but I have thought for a LONG time that books should have ratings just like movies and video games do.  Every program on TV will give the rating and why " Rated P-13, nudity and violence "  so then parents can decide if that's okay or not.  Why are books not the same?  I have picked up books before and was totally disgusted- I wish they had a rating to warn me!  I don't want to read a gay romance book- not my thing.  Knowing in advance,  I wouldn't have picked it.  I don't have time to look through every book my kids read, I don't even preview my own books.  I tried to check on the Good Sense Media website with my oldest,  but she would read 15 books a week!  

In my book-rating program, I would also have categories for different levels of violence- like Hunger Games or Matilda- both include violence,  but one is very cartoonist, the other realistic. I don't think this would prevent kids from reading inappropriate books, but it would give parents and schools a place to start from.  Plenty of kids are still watching horror movies and playing that Auto Theft game with the prostitutes in it, but at least there is a warning on them for the parents paying attention.

 

A lot of the hub bub is not about empowering parents. Its about a top down approach to controlling other people and their children.  There is no interest in allowing parents to have more information and make choices for their individual families.  The only interest is in taking away choices, under the guise of protecting children.  

[livetoread]

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

It’s not a critical question but a fact that the US was solely developed by and for WASPs.

I would quibble with this. I think it was developed "by" all sorts of cultures, but "for" WASPs. Other people and cultures contributed quite a bit, but their contributions were coopted and/or erased in the service of WASP majority.

[Carrie12345]

(Posting after brief skim.)

Where I grew up, and where I am, public libraries aren’t independently accessible to most non-drivers. I had weekly trips because it was important to my mother. My kids had weekly trips because it was important to me. (Now we share Amazon.) Parents who aren’t that invested OR AVAILABLE (for many reasons) won’t do that.

The idea of a further whitewashed history terrifies me. I already felt like *I* didn’t get a fair history education. I can’t imagine allowing it to get worse.

I learned about Japanese internment camps through a Danielle Steele novel. Not school.

[maize]

36 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The US is an unprecedented country and needn’t rely solely on other precedents to chart the path forward. Indeed, the history of the world is replete with insular countries that refused to learn/pivot suffering great falls. I’m confident that should an effort be made, it could be done.

I'm usually an optimist. 

I'm not sure what our path forward is here. Best I can figure is somehow genuinely embracing diversity of thought/culture/opinion and freedom for individuals and communities to be actually diverse from each other without acting out judgmentally towards everyone else. Difficult because part of embracing any particular group view involves rejecting other views.

I'm on board for trying, how do we get enough people to start? There's heavy judgmentalism and a tendency towards social (and sometimes political) authoritarianism both on the right and left of our political spectrum right now. Is there less in the middle? Do we have a middle?

Edited August 6, 2023 by maize