U.S. residents/voters of good will...come in, pls.

[Sneezyone]

Can we talk about how culture war issues/concerns in the U.S. are affecting public education, how bans and bias are limiting what kids can learn, how, IMO, we have entered a new 'red scare' era without concern trolls diverting the convo? This is worrying to me. All of these stories about book bans and course bans, and course content, and terminology are markers of a citizenry that no longer believes in or is willing to uphold majority rule, local control, or even plurality as values. Is this who we are/want to be? Who do we mean to be?

[Terabith]

It appears we are.  It’s absolutely terrifying.  A local county is proposing a law that needs nobody under 18 can be in a public library without a parent because they might be exposed to inappropriate content.  

[Sneezyone]

I guess I just wish we are who we purport to be, a country of live and let live folks. This isn't an attempt to call anyone out. My goal is to invite conversation about how to be better.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[kokotg]

I'm in the AP lit teachers Facebook group (because we're doing AP lit at home), and it's truly scary and disheartening to hear the kinds of experiences these teachers are having. One teacher described having to have absolutely every reading assignment approved at the district level...where they would go through software that would filter out anything objectionable, including stuff like any profanity at all. In what's supposed to be a college level class. 

[Sneezyone]

For me, one of the biggest issues is the lack of shared history. I feel like the U.S. has many histories, passed down through the years, but they're not shared and they've never been reconciled into one, complete, narrative. The fight over books and courses and history feels very much like an attempt to prevent us from making the effort to develop a shared, national, narrative history that includes and reflects all. I feel like if we had some shared foundational knowledge, we'd be better able to fend off attacks on our freedom/civil society.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SquirrellyMama]

I work in a public/school library, I think we are one of four in our state. We are right now moving books around so kids can't check out books that our legislature has deemed "inappropriate". It's a bit of a mess right now. We serve grades 6-8 as a school library. I feel really bad for the high school librarian. She has kids who are 18/19 who aren't allowed to read certain books because this law pertains to k-12. We are telling adults what they can read. It boggles my mind. 

Every kid in our school system gets a Chromebook. I know kids are into way scarier stuff on those. They have blocking software which the kids get around quickly. My own kids told me how they did it. 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SquirrellyMama said:

I work in a public/school library, I think we are one of four in our state. We are right now moving books around so kids can't check out books that our legislature has deemed "inappropriate". It's a bit of a mess right now. We serve grades 6-8 as a school library. I feel really bad for the high school librarian. She has kids who are 18/19 who aren't allowed to read certain books because this law pertains to k-12. We are telling adults what they can read. It boggles my mind. 

Every kid in our school system gets a Chromebook. I know kids are into way scarier stuff on those. They have blocking software which the kids get around quickly. My own kids told me how they did it. 

I share concerns about young people being exposed to inappropriate content. I don't want my kids watching porn on a school-issued Chromebook. I just think that attempts to control the tool/chromebook vs. work on the child/environment are less effective. I want to work on the environments and family resources. That statement feels subversive. It shouldn't be.

[mom2scouts]

20 minutes ago, Terabith said:

It appears we are.  It’s absolutely terrifying.  A local county is proposing a law that needs nobody under 18 can be in a public library without a parent because they might be exposed to inappropriate content.  

Oh, that's terrible. My mom doesn't read. I've never seen her read a book in my entire life, but I love to read. As a teen, I used to ride my bike to the local library branch. Sometimes I'd ride to the nearby city to the bigger county library. I'd spend hours just wandering through the stacks picking up whatever book caught my attention. Not being able to do that as a teen would have been sad.

[maize]

9 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

She has kids who are 18/19 who aren't allowed to read certain books because this law pertains to k-12. We are telling adults what they can read. 

 

Can we be accurate in our discussion? No-one is telling adults what they can or can't read.

The controls are only on what a student (as a student) can access through their school library. 

I'm curious about your situation. If your library is school/public, can students get a public library card and access the books that way? Is the legislation specifically about what school libraries can offer or what any public library can offer to minors? (Since you are moving books not discarding them I assume those that are off-limit for students to check out are still available to the public, or at least to adult public patrons.)

[Sneezyone]

Just now, maize said:

Can we be accurate in our discussion? No-one is telling adults what they can or can't read.

The controls are only on what a student (as a student) can access through their school library. 

I'm curious about your situation. If your library is school/public, can students get a public library card and access the books that way? Is the legislation specifically about what school libraries can offer or what any public library can offer to minors? (Since you are moving books not discarding them I assume those that are off-limit for students to check out are still available to the public, or at least to adult public patrons.)

18/19 yos are public school students in the U.S. That's accurate. Local public libraries are also under attack and are, in many cases, less accessible to readers (e.g. bus routes - how I got there as a kid).

[Dmmetler]

It's scary. It's getting to the point that if a Little Free Library steward posts that they include banned books (which is a flag that you can add to your library listing) they'd better turn off their comments, because 3/4 of them will be calling them various things that insinuate bad motives on the part of the steward, for trying to get books into the hands of kids. Some of these folks act like we're drug dealers (and like school and children's librarians are centers of drug cartels). Especially if they're also a "Read in color" library that focuses on diverse authors and stories.  

 

I've gotten so many book donations from teachers who have been told they can't have those books in their classroom anymore-and I'm talking books that are Newberry award winners. Historical fiction has been very hard hit. But so have the books that really appeal to a lot of reluctant readers-books like Captain Underpants or with titles like "the Day my Butt went Psycho".  I went through the books that have been through my library with a new 2ns grade teacher yesterday so that she has at least a few in her classroom, and the number that each of us picked up, looked at, and then put back because "this is a great book, but we can't use it in school" were extremely high. These are books for 2nd graders. No one is writing anything at all extreme for 2nd graders. But if it's on a list as challenged anywhere in the state, the schools don't want it. And the lists are thousands of books long and if one book in a series is, schools are telling teachers not to risk it (Arthur was recently added, for example). 

 

It kind of feels like I'm running a book rescue and adoption service, like books like "Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry" and "Captain Underpants" and "Arthur's Birthday" are in danger of being put to sleep. 

 

One thing that I think is sometimes missed is that everything FL is doing, other states are too...they're just flying under the radar a little more. 

 

 

[mom2scouts]

6 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

I've gotten so many book donations from teachers who have been told they can't have those books in their classroom anymore-and I'm talking books that are Newberry award winners. Historical fiction has been very hard hit. But so have the books that really appeal to a lot of reluctant readers-books like Captain Underpants or with titles like "the Day my Butt went Psycho".  I went through the books that have been through my library with a new 2ns grade teacher yesterday so that she has at least a few in her classroom, and the number that each of us picked up, looked at, and then put back because "this is a great book, but we can't use it in school" were extremely high. These are books for 2nd graders. No one is writing anything at all extreme for 2nd graders. But if it's on a list as challenged anywhere in the state, the schools don't want it. And the lists are thousands of books long and if one book in a series is, schools are telling teachers not to risk it (Arthur was recently added, for example). 

 

 

 

My community has a spring clean up where everybody puts stuff they don't want on the curb, people drive around and take things they want, and whatever is left is picked up by the garbage service. My husband found a bunch of like new children's books and brought them home. It included a complete set of hard back Captain Underpants books. My 33 year old son was excited, pulled them all out of the box, and took them home. LOL!

ETA: My kids really liked "Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry" and it's one we keep on our shelves.

Edited August 6, 2023 by mom2scouts

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, mom2scouts said:

My community has a spring clean up where everybody puts stuff they don't want on the curb, people drive around and take things they want, and whatever is left is picked up by the garbage service. My husband found a bunch of like new children's books and brought them home. It included a complete set of hard back Captain Underpants books. My 33 year old son was excited, pulled them all out of the box, and took them home. LOL!

My DS loved Captain Underpants too! As I said, I don't think this is entirely rational or thought out. I feel like its a red scare redux that needs to be appreciated for what it is. Who do we want to be and how do we get there?

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SquirrellyMama]

11 minutes ago, maize said:

Can we be accurate in our discussion? No-one is telling adults what they can or can't read.

The controls are only on what a student (as a student) can access through their school library. 

I'm curious about your situation. If your library is school/public, can students get a public library card and access the books that way? Is the legislation specifically about what school libraries can offer or what any public library can offer to minors? (Since you are moving books not discarding them I assume those that are off-limit for students to check out are still available to the public, or at least to adult public patrons.)

I think I am being accurate. Eighteen and nineteen year olds are adults. Yes, they are also students. It would be more accurate to say that they are being told what they CANNOT read from the school library. I still think it stinks. 

Yes, they can get a public library account and come in at 3:01pm and check out whatever they want. 

Personally, I think this is going to backfire on the lawmakers. They are just making show of "protecting children". These kids are going to go straight to the section of books we removed and check them out. We are making it easier to find the inappropriate content. So, actually, it doesn't stink. I think it is funny. We might as well label those shelves "Inappropriate Content". Love it! 

Edited August 6, 2023 by SquirrellyMama

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SquirrellyMama said:

 

I think I am being accurate. Eighteen and nineteen year olds are adults. Yes, they are also students. It would be more accurate to say that they are being told what they CANNOT read from the school library. I still think it stinks. 

Yes, they can get a public library account and come in at 3:01pm and check out whatever they want. 

Personally, I think this is going to backfire on the lawmakers. They are just making show of "protecting children". These kids are going to go straight to the section of books we removed and check them out. We are making it easier to find the inappropriate content. So, actually, it doesn't stink. I think it is funny. We might as well label those shelved "Inappropriate Content". Love it! 

I do not disagree. Looking back on my own reading history, I went STRAIGHT for those things people told me not to read.

[PaxEtLux]

21 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I'm in the AP lit teachers Facebook group (because we're doing AP lit at home), and it's truly scary and disheartening to hear the kinds of experiences these teachers are having. One teacher described having to have absolutely every reading assignment approved at the district level...where they would go through software that would filter out anything objectionable, including stuff like any profanity at all. In what's supposed to be a college level class. 

I'm outside the public school system, so there's mountains I don't understand, and I certainly sympathize with these teachers.

But I am shocked that we ask each of these individual teachers to do so much work to come up with assignments, reading lists etc., on their own, when it could be shared between all the teachers of the same subject across the district or state or even AP.  It reminds me of the scandals we hear, seemingly yearly, about classes holding a "slave auction" or writing essays with questionable prompts that came from a "teachers pay teachers" web site.  Why are the teachers creating this material on their own?  Why can't the district/State/whatever provide a set of, say, 30 books for 10th grade English teachers could choose from, and a bunch of essay prompts for each of those?

It reminds me of our situation with the IRS, where the IRS knows how much tax we should owe, but never tells us outright -- they ask us to compute our tax, and if we compute too low a number, we get in trouble.

[Katy]

44 minutes ago, Terabith said:

It appears we are.  It’s absolutely terrifying.  A local county is proposing a law that needs nobody under 18 can be in a public library without a parent because they might be exposed to inappropriate content.  

No doubt by the same people who give kids smartphones without filters in the 2nd grade. 

[Murphy101]

33 minutes ago, Terabith said:

It appears we are.  It’s absolutely terrifying.  A local county is proposing a law that needs nobody under 18 can be in a public library without a parent because they might be exposed to inappropriate content.  

Well god forbid we propose a law that nobody expose pornographic material in public places - like libraries.  Wouldn’t want to cramp any adult’s porn.  /heavy snark

I am in our local public libraries at least weekly. And due to so many libraries becoming less about actual books and more about computer access - it IS a problem.  They put software on the computers and such to try to prevent access to inappropriate sites, but there’s always a loophole somewhere.

And it used to be there was an adult section but librarians can’t police other people’s kids and really don’t want to deal with the parents who are outraged that other people don’t watch their kids better than them.  So from that POV? I get why the libraries might be fed up and saying no kids under 18 then. And I hate it. Bc as a kid I’d never have stepped in a library even once if I had had to have my parents with me. And I know there’s kids like that today too. 

20 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I'm in the AP lit teachers Facebook group (because we're doing AP lit at home), and it's truly scary and disheartening to hear the kinds of experiences these teachers are having. One teacher described having to have absolutely every reading assignment approved at the district level...where they would go through software that would filter out anything objectionable, including stuff like any profanity at all. In what's supposed to be a college level class. 

It’s nuts. But also it’s not. Personally I think the problem is keeping kids in high school until 17/18.  While I don’t graduate my teens at 15, I start expecting them to handle adult programs with some guidance from me. Our local community college has made dual enrollment a PITA. They have segregated courses into thought attended only by high school kids and those that are the usual community college classes. They claim there’s no difference in the courses but I call BS on that.  I refuse to allow my teens to take college level courses that only have high schoolers enrolled. It’s why, VERY sadly, I no longer allow them to take trade classes in high school either. We hated the 2 times we did it and ended up pulling them from those programs. Enrolled again after graduating homeschool high school and no problems. The parents ruin everything for their precious teens and it’s reflected in how the programs are run by those teachers. 

13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I share concerns about young people being exposed to inappropriate content. I don't want my kids watching porn on a school-issued Chromebook. I just think that attempts to control the tool/chromebook vs. work on the child/environment are less effective. I want to work on the environments and family resources. That statement feels subversive. It shouldn't be.

Computers as default for everything in classrooms below Junior year is the worst thing to ever happen to k-12 education in my opinion.  I love tech. But it’s a tool that is more often misused than appropriately used and it stunts the natural development of children and in most schools.

That’s not even getting into the fact that I think it’s an invasion of privacy for families.

[I talk to the trees]

45 minutes ago, Terabith said:

It appears we are.  It’s absolutely terrifying.  A local county is proposing a law that needs nobody under 18 can be in a public library without a parent because they might be exposed to inappropriate content.  

I somehow missed that one, but am not a bit surprised. We have been tossing around the idea of moving out of the valley (actually out of the state) and this is just another reminder of why. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

My daughter’s sixth grade reading list for this upcoming year in a very conservative Christian school contains a number of diverse books and some even contain profanity.  It’s actually a really solid list of well written books.

My seventh grade nephew’s reading list in a Florida public school is….not.

A few months ago we witnessed a horrific car accident with multiple fatalities that literally happened a car length in front of us.  I am talking body parts lying on the road next to my car where my children sat watching the whole thing.  Then their dad showed up on the first ambulance, and my car was blocked in unable to move so again they continued watching. So now they were also concerned about Dad possibly getting hit by a car on the highway.  For the next few days, I found my older kids reading hard books. Bridge to Terabithia. The Giver. The later Harry Potter books in the series. Olive’s Ocean.  Fallen Angels by Walter Dean Myers. Books that deal with hard themes, but they gave my kids words to describe what they had seen and put some of it in context.  Sexually explicit at their ages? No, but books that just plainly deal with hard topics and themes, even if there is some profanity sprinkled in? Those books are so important to so many kids who’s lives contain hard things.

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Well god forbid we propose a law that nobody expose pornographic material in public places - like libraries.  Wouldn’t want to cramp any adult’s porn.  /heavy snark

I am in our local public libraries at least weekly. And due to so many libraries becoming less about actual books and more about computer access - it IS a problem.  They put software on the computers and such to try to prevent access to inappropriate sites, but there’s always a loophole somewhere.

And it used to be there was an adult section but librarians can’t police other people’s kids and really don’t want to deal with the parents who are outraged that other people don’t watch their kids better than them.  So from that POV? I get why the libraries might be fed up and saying no kids under 18 then. And I hate it. Bc as a kid I’d never have stepped in a library even once if I had had to have my parents with me. And I know there’s kids like that today too. 

It’s nuts. But also it’s not. Personally I think the problem is keeping kids in high school until 17/18.  While I don’t graduate my teens at 15, I start expecting them to handle adult programs with some guidance from me. Our local community college has made dual enrollment a PITA. They have segregated courses into thought attended only by high school kids and those that are the usual community college classes. They claim there’s no difference in the courses but I call BS on that.  I refuse to allow my teens to take college level courses that only have high schoolers enrolled. It’s why, VERY sadly, I no longer allow them to take trade classes in high school either. We hated the 2 times we did it and ended up pulling them from those programs. Enrolled again after graduating homeschool high school and no problems. The parents ruin everything for their precious teens and it’s reflected in how the programs are run by those teachers. 

Computers as default for everything in classrooms below Junior year is the worst thing to ever happen to k-12 education in my opinion.  I love tech. But it’s a tool that is more often misused than appropriately used and it stunts the natural development of children and in most schools.

That’s not even getting into the fact that I think it’s an invasion of privacy for families.

There are MANY reasons why adults are still in high school including young parenthood, disability, and illness. Srsly. This is not a thread intended to invite screeds about the increasing prevalence of those students. There are legitimate questions about access to porn in public libraries as well as legitimate questions abut how porn is defined. What's the appropriate venue to air those concerns? Who gets a say?

The situation you're describing with CC classes is part of the fallout of this 'red scare'. If high school students can't handle explicit and adult topics (however one defines that) they will only have access to circumscribed CC content. It's a protective measure for the school.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[SquirrellyMama]

5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Personally I think the problem is keeping kids in high school until 17/18.

Yes, I agree that keeping kids past 18 is an issue. We have a lot of 19 year olds graduating in our district, or we did. I have been told that fewer kids are doing EK than 10-15 years ago.

Edited August 6, 2023 by SquirrellyMama

[kokotg]

7 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

I'm outside the public school system, so there's mountains I don't understand, and I certainly sympathize with these teachers.

But I am shocked that we ask each of these individual teachers to do so much work to come up with assignments, reading lists etc., on their own, when it could be shared between all the teachers of the same subject across the district or state or even AP.  It reminds me of the scandals we hear, seemingly yearly, about classes holding a "slave auction" or writing essays with questionable prompts that came from a "teachers pay teachers" web site.  Why are the teachers creating this material on their own?  Why can't the district/State/whatever provide a set of, say, 30 books for 10th grade English teachers could choose from, and a bunch of essay prompts for each of those?

It reminds me of our situation with the IRS, where the IRS knows how much tax we should owe, but never tells us outright -- they ask us to compute our tax, and if we compute too low a number, we get in trouble.

That definitely doesn't sound like a college level class to me, which is what AP lit is supposed to be. I think less teacher autonomy is a great way to drive more teachers out of the profession. I know a lot of teachers, and being told exactly what and how to teach isn't what they're looking for. A standardized curriculum where everyone graduates having read the same books that don't grapple with any topics any parent might find objectionable doesn't sound so great to me. Incidentally, the latest post about book banning in Florida reports that this teacher's district has banned all Shakespeare to be sure they're complying with the new laws. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

This! Yes, I totally agree. Or, keeping them until 18/19. We had a lot of kids graduating at 19 in our district. I have been told fewer kids are going to EK (Early Kindergarten) than what was happening 15-20 years ago. 

This is part and parcel of the discussion about what we are expecting our youngest students to do. Parents, rationally, are keeping their kids out of school longer.

[Heartstrings]

The issue that I am seeing in my area is that "pornography" is being used to describe things that are no such thing.  A gay person existing, fully clothed, on a page is not pornography. Books with black people, fully clothed, existing on the page is not pornography, but is being called such in my area.  If the conversation was actually about sexually explicit content and only sexually explicit content, it would be going a different way.  However, using the word "pornography" as a fear tactic when they really mean any content that is not white, heterosexual, and one particular flavor of conservative Christian muddies the issue and makes it impossible to talk about.  Learning about Harriet Tubman is NOT pornography, no matter how you squint at it.  Hair Love is not pornography.    

[SquirrellyMama]

 

Just now, Sneezyone said:

This is part and parcel of the discussion about what we are expecting our youngest students to do. Parents, rationally, are keeping their kids out of school longer.

Around here it mostly had to do with 2 things. 

1. Boys with a spring or summer birthday were often held back at the recommendation of teachers. My middle kid would have been in EK instead of kindergarten if we had done public school right away. He would have been 19 when he graduated. 

2. Parents sending kids to EK due to smaller class sizes. They still had to do kindergarten the next year though. So they did Pre-K, EK, and then K. 

We did also have some parents keeping their kids out to give them a leg up in sports. Luckily, that wasn't super common. 

[Happy2BaMom]

20 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

I'm outside the public school system, so there's mountains I don't understand, and I certainly sympathize with these teachers.

But I am shocked that we ask each of these individual teachers to do so much work to come up with assignments, reading lists etc., on their own, when it could be shared between all the teachers of the same subject across the district or state or even AP.  It reminds me of the scandals we hear, seemingly yearly, about classes holding a "slave auction" or writing essays with questionable prompts that came from a "teachers pay teachers" web site.  Why are the teachers creating this material on their own?  Why can't the district/State/whatever provide a set of, say, 30 books for 10th grade English teachers could choose from, and a bunch of essay prompts for each of those?

It reminds me of our situation with the IRS, where the IRS knows how much tax we should owe, but never tells us outright -- they ask us to compute our tax, and if we compute too low a number, we get in trouble.

There are *many* resources for teachers to share lesson plans and related resources. Those web sites - both national & state- are common knowledge & commonly used by most teachers.

Nearly every district provides a very specific list of curriculum and books for use in classrooms. It has been this way for at least a decade.

Certain media broadcast "scandals" - at least some of which are later proven to be entirely false (litter boxes in bathrooms, anyone)? - as if they are every day occurrences. I'm not saying bizarre things don't happen - there are ~3,500,000 public school teachers in the US and there are going to be some weirdos in the mix, but districts now are far more clamped down than they are open. It's part of the reason why public school teaching absolutely SUCKS, and why so many teachers are checking out.

(I'm a former public school teacher and still have many friends in the system.)

Edited August 6, 2023 by Happy2BaMom
grammar, missed words

[Idalou]

I remember years ago how governors and such were trying to ban all of Howard Zinn's books, claiming all sorts of bs on how he hated Anerica. Lo and behold, so many of his chapters in those books included stories people are learning about just now, such as the Pinkerton police shooting strikers & protesters, the Tulsa race riots, northerners protesting the Civil War draft, etc. Too many of us adults still can not handle hearing both the horrid and inspiring story of this country.

[Murphy101]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

There are MANY reasons why adults are still in high school including young parenthood, disability, and illness. Srsly. This is not a thread intended to invite screeds. There are legitimate questions about access to porn in public libraries as well as legitimate questions abut how porn is defined. What's the appropriate venue to air those concerns? Who gets a say?

I am well aware that there are plenty of kids graduating highschool ages 17-19 and it’s been that way since Dh and I graduated over 30 years ago. And 30 years ago schools knew this was a huge causes of drop outs and that’s why they started programs like dual enrollments and trade school agreements for the last 2 years of high school students. 

I’m telling you MY issue that I see right here in Oklahoma. Porn isn’t a new problem, but the amount and frequency that minors come into contact with it IS a while other level from “back in our day” and it is a problem.

As for who gets a say? I don’t know how to answer that. If majority ruled we’d probably still have slaves and women still wouldn’t be able to vote.  All I know is wrong is wrong.

1 minute ago, SquirrellyMama said:

This! Yes, I totally agree. Or, keeping them until 18/19. We had a lot of kids graduating at 19 in our district. I have been told fewer kids are going to EK (Early Kindergarten) than what was happening 15-20 years ago. 

There’s really no reason to send kids to early education from a long term education pov. (Plenty of valid mom needs daycare reasons but that’s a separate issue.) By 5th grade you usually can’t tell which kids went early and which kids didn’t.  And there’s some valid reasons not to start formal academics until age 7ish. 

[maize]

6 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

This! Yes, I totally agree. Or, keeping them until 18/19. We had a lot of kids graduating at 19 in our district. I have been told fewer kids are going to EK (Early Kindergarten) than what was happening 15-20 years ago. 

We've pushed academics to younger and younger kids, a lot of what is in current kindergarten standards really isn't developmentally appropriate for 5 year olds--especially 5 year old boys, who tend to lag behind girls in some areas.

Under those circumstances,  it makes sense to wait to start school for some kids until they are a bit older.

I'd love to see more direct-job-skill  vocational training and internships/apprenticeships at the high school level. 

 

[PaxEtLux]

5 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I think less teacher autonomy is a great way to drive more teachers out of the profession. I know a lot of teachers, and being told exactly what and how to teach isn't what they're looking for.

I'm not suggesting mandating how to teach, but consider how math is usually taught in High School -- the teacher mainly uses one textbook, which has been reused for years, and teaches from that book, in order, using problems in that book.  I've never heard a complaint from math teachers about lack of autonomy even though they've been working this way forever.

[Murphy101]

7 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

The issue that I am seeing in my area is that "pornography" is being used to describe things that are no such thing.  A gay person existing, fully clothed, on a page is not pornography. Books with black people, fully clothed, existing on the page is not pornography, but is being called such in my area.  If the conversation was actually about sexually explicit content and only sexually explicit content, it would be going a different way.  However, using the word "pornography" as a fear tactic when they really mean any content that is not white, heterosexual, and one particular flavor of conservative Christian muddies the issue and makes it impossible to talk about.  Learning about Harriet Tubman is NOT pornography, no matter how you squint at it.  Hair Love is not pornography.    

To be clear. I’m talking sexually explicit.

I am also against editing works to suit modern pc police. For example, Mark Twain’s works reflect the time they were written in and about. They don’t need abridged. They need discussed.  That should be part of the literature study. 

[kokotg]

Just now, PaxEtLux said:

I'm not suggesting mandating how to teach, but consider how math is usually taught in High School -- the teacher mainly uses one textbook, which has been reused for years, and teaches from that book, in order, using problems in that book.  I've never heard a complaint from math teachers about lack of autonomy even though they've been working this way forever.

My husband's a math teacher. The books actually seem to change every couple of years around here, but if he doesn't like the book he's given he regularly makes his own materials and uses them (and/or coordinates with other teachers in his department). If someone told him he couldn't do that and HAD to only use the problems in the textbook he was given, he'd be very upset. Because he knows what works for his students better than a curriculum development team or textbook writer who's never met them does. 

[Dmmetler]

I've posted before that L's school has, as one of their required questions "what is the book which had the most impact on you and why".  For L's class, the top two were "The Hate U Give" and "Beloved". Every year, most of the books listed are ones on "Frequently challenged" lists. 

 

I seriously wonder how kids coming from states like mine will answer that question in a few years. Will it end up being a system where the only kids who have read books that make them think and reflect are coming from increasingly fewer private schools and a handful of homeschoolers who prioritize academics? 

[Happy2BaMom]

4 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

I'm not suggesting mandating how to teach, but consider how math is usually taught in High School -- the teacher mainly uses one textbook, which has been reused for years, and teaches from that book, in order, using problems in that book.  I've never heard a complaint from math teachers about lack of autonomy even though they've been working this way forever.

The math teachers in both districts in which I worked complained bitterly about lack of autonomy. Math textbooks - and teaching approaches - change frequently (in districts that can afford to), and are chosen by the School Board, often without input by teachers. Most of the high school teachers in my last district created their own lessons (pulling from teacher web sites) and bypassed the math-curriculum-of-the-moment entirely.

You seem to have very outdated ideas about what goes on in public schools.

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Happy2BaMom

[wendyroo]

1 minute ago, PaxEtLux said:

I'm not suggesting mandating how to teach, but consider how math is usually taught in High School -- the teacher mainly uses one textbook, which has been reused for years, and teaches from that book, in order, using problems in that book.  I've never heard a complaint from math teachers about lack of autonomy even though they've been working this way forever.

That is not at all how math is taught in local high schools here anymore. It is all PowerPoint presentations and projects, group work, even group tests. Most of the resources are cobbled together from teachers pay teachers. If students have access to a text book it is typically digital instead of print. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I am well aware that there are plenty of kids graduating highschool ages 17-19 and it’s been that way since Dh and I graduated over 30 years ago. And 30 years ago schools knew this was a huge causes of drop outs and that’s why they started programs like dual enrollments and trade school agreements for the last 2 years of high school students. 

I’m telling you MY issue that I see right here in Oklahoma. Porn isn’t a new problem, but the amount and frequency that minors come into contact with it IS a while other level from “back in our day” and it is a problem.

As for who gets a say? I don’t know how to answer that. If majority ruled we’d probably still have slaves and women still wouldn’t be able to vote.  All I know is wrong is wrong.

There’s really no reason to send kids to early education from a long term education pov. (Plenty of valid mom needs daycare reasons but that’s a separate issue.) By 5th grade you usually can’t tell which kids went early and which kids didn’t.  And there’s some valid reasons not to start formal academics until age 7ish. 

Thanks. As to the bolded, no. I don't think the majority (which included the enslaved) would have ratified indefinite subjugation but I do think we ask to much of very young kids with limited evidence of success.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

To be clear. I’m talking sexually explicit.

I am also against editing works to suit modern pc police. For example, Mark Twain’s works reflect the time they were written in and about. They don’t need abridged. They need discussed.  That should be part of the literature study. 

I totally agree - even as I choose not to put some works in front of my own kids. I want them to exist and am happy for folks to read them and find value in them. I just choose not to promote/share them. It's the difference between govt/collective/and personal action for me.

[Heartstrings]

Just now, Dmmetler said:

I've posted before that L's school has, as one of their required questions "what is the book which had the most impact on you and why".  For L's class, the top two were "The Hate U Give" and "Beloved". Every year, most of the books listed are ones on "Frequently challenged" lists. 

 

I seriously wonder how kids coming from states like mine will answer that question in a few years. Will it end up being a system where the only kids who have read books that make them think and reflect are coming from increasingly fewer private schools and a handful of homeschoolers who prioritize academics? 

Yes.  I'm sympathetic to the idea that this is exactly the reason why this happening too.  I'm not saying I buy it 100%, but it does seem to be creating an even bigger divide in education.  Only those can afford private school or homeschool will be educated.  Its very telling that most of the changes are directed at public school by people who don't send their kids to public school.  I don't feel like that can be over looked in these discussion.  Its very much censorship for thee, not for me.  

[kokotg]

6 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

I'm not suggesting mandating how to teach, but consider how math is usually taught in High School -- the teacher mainly uses one textbook, which has been reused for years, and teaches from that book, in order, using problems in that book.  I've never heard a complaint from math teachers about lack of autonomy even though they've been working this way forever.

I'd also point out that making a standardized curriculum to save time for teachers isn't what's going on in literature classes. It's not about helping the poor, overworked teachers, it's about ensuring that students are never exposed to ideas that certain segments of the population find objectionable. Like the facts that gay people and racism exist.

[Murphy101]

9 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

I'm not suggesting mandating how to teach, but consider how math is usually taught in High School -- the teacher mainly uses one textbook, which has been reused for years, and teaches from that book, in order, using problems in that book.  I've never heard a complaint from math teachers about lack of autonomy even though they've been working this way forever.

This. *To some extent.* Other countries have a shared cultural experience.  Trying to think of an example… idk, it would be like graduating from school I. South Korea and not knowing much about the Korean War.  But we have students graduating from American schools who really don’t know much at all about the founding of our country, the civil war, the Great Depression, the 50/60s civil rights movements. They should be familiar with the major literary works that reflect those events.

ETA: I think the parallel here is the content covered is what is mostly uniform.  

Edited August 6, 2023 by Murphy101

[rebcoola]

We had good news locally and 3 school board members were recalled. I really didnt expect it to actually happen they broke the law but in a way that was very much approved of by far right people.  Those voices are loud but not the majority apparently.  

I had an aquactaince call the 2nd Percy Jackson Series porn.  It has some kissing and hand holding I am assuming the real problem is the who is kissing.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

This. *To some extent.* Other countries have a shared cultural experience.  Trying to think of an example… idk, it would be like graduating from school I. South Korea and not knowing much about the Korean War.  But we have students graduating from American schools who really don’t know much at all about the founding of our country, the civil war, the Great Depression, the 50/60s civil rights movements. They should be familiar with the major literary works that reflect those events.

ETA: I think the parallel here is the content covered is what is mostly uniform.  

Which goes back to what I said upthread, something we can all, perhaps, agree on...

The U.S. doesn't have a shared history/cultural narrative that's inclusive and tested, tried and true.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Murphy101]

7 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

That is not at all how math is taught in local high schools here anymore. It is all PowerPoint presentations and projects, group work, even group tests. Most of the resources are cobbled together from teachers pay teachers. If students have access to a text book it is typically digital instead of print. 

This. It’s a huge problem here. It’s a damned hot mess.  None of the schools here have math textbooks at all.

Alas. Math was the last bastion of reason and expectation but it fell about 10ish years ago with the arrival the almighty Chromebooks for everyone movement. 

[Innisfree]

4 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

I'm not suggesting mandating how to teach, but consider how math is usually taught in High School -- the teacher mainly uses one textbook, which has been reused for years, and teaches from that book, in order, using problems in that book.  I've never heard a complaint from math teachers about lack of autonomy even though they've been working this way forever.

Teachers in our district haven’t used textbooks, any textbooks, for years. Not when my kids were little, not when they tried returning to public school in high school. The teachers are given online materials by the district, so theoretically the schools are teaching standardized material, but we found that in practice there were significant differences. Some teachers supplement with materials they find or create; some just do a better job of getting through the materials they’re given. But they’re not using textbooks.

My best literature teachers, going back to the Stone Age, drew from books that interested them, as well as using a few books standard to all classes in that grade level. I wouldn’t want to force them all to use exactly the same books. Teachers are individuals, and so are their students. The teachers need some flexibility to use their own skills, experience, and judgment.

[pinball]

There are more than enough books available to kids of all ages that are appropriate for that age to last throughout their entire childhoods.

It’s ridiculous to throw around words like censored and banned when what is actually happening is nothing of the sort.

[Sneezyone]

I think there is so much collective, untapped wisdom and insight that SHOULD inform practice and leadership but doesn't. Not gonna touch on the how's here but I hope to inspire folks to consider the whys/hows and contemplate how they can impact their own communities. And with that...I'm off to can tomatoes.

BEWARE THE TROLLS!

🙂

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sneezyone

[mom2scouts]

21 minutes ago, SquirrellyMama said:

 

Around here it mostly had to do with 2 things. 

1. Boys with a spring or summer birthday were often held back at the recommendation of teachers. My middle kid would have been in EK instead of kindergarten if we had done public school right away. He would have been 19 when he graduated. 

2. Parents sending kids to EK due to smaller class sizes. They still had to do kindergarten the next year though. So they did Pre-K, EK, and then K. 

We did also have some parents keeping their kids out to give them a leg up in sports. Luckily, that wasn't super common. 

What is EK? Early Kindergarten? Extended Kindergarten? We don't have that here. Kids do preschool and then full day K. Many younger boys with summer birthdays start K at age 6.

[SquirrellyMama]

Personally, I say leave the books alone and get rid of the Chromebooks. The books the law makers have deemed sexually inappropriate are less harmful than what the kids are finding on their computers and phones. Unfortunately, it is easier to go for the books and think they are actually making a difference. Pat themselves on the back for their efforts... I'm seriously unhappy with my state government right now. 

 

 

[kokotg]

8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Which goes back to what I said upthread, something we can all, perhaps, agree on...

The U.S. doesn't have a shared history/cultural narrative that's inclusive and tested, tried and true.

This. MY idea of what is absolutely essential knowledge and reading for my American kids is no longer allowed to be taught in Florida.