Smartphones and sibling rivalry

[Quarter Note]

Oh, friends.  I’ve had nagging and screaming about this for many months now.

Two years ago, daughter was 12 and son was 10.  Both were being homeschooled.  We were in the pandemic.  Both were young.  There was no reason to get either kid a smartphone (husband and I don’t even have a smartphone), despite older daughter really wanting one.

Now, daughter is 14, son is 12.  Both kids are going to public school this fall.  Both kids are out and about in town more.  “Everyone” has a smartphone at public school, and neither wants to be the “only” kid without one.  Son wants to fly drones, and apparently the good ones require a smartphone for control.

We’re okay with getting the kids their own phones with appropriate parental controls.

But daughter is furious that we’re even considering giving her younger brother a smartphone at an age when she didn’t have one.  The screaming, oh, the screaming at the unfairness of it all.

So, one compromise that we’ve come up with is that they both get smartphones with appropriate parental controls, but older daughter gets hers two weeks before younger son gets his, as a symbolic recognition that she is older (this was actually her suggestion, though she doesn't really like it), and that she gets more privileges on her phone than she has on his.

Any suggestions how to be fair to older kid without penalizing younger kid simply for being in a different place in life?

(Warm thoughts and prayers would be appreciated - the screaming is hard on me, and no amount of calm-mom deëscalation techniques can seem to touch her sense of injustice.)

[HomeAgain]

I wouldn't entertain the issue.

"KidA, I get how you feel.  Dad and I have considered the needs each of you have at this moment and have come up with a solution to those needs.  Sometimes being fair doesn't look like what you think it does."

That's it.  It's not about privileges or age based restriction.  It's about the needs of each kid at different times in their lives, and I'm not going to jump around that to placate a child.  Soon it's not just about the phones. but about evening everything else out.  My kids have had different abilities at different times in their lives, because their needs and responsibilities are different.

[klmama]

I'm sorry you are dealing with this.  If fairness is the issue, YOU are the one who is getting the worst of the deal -- you don't even have a smart phone, but your dc expect them.  Not cool, in my book.  YMMV, of course, but if my dc were nagging and screaming at me about the unfairness of the situation, I'd decide she wasn't mature enough to have a phone or that she might need to see someone about her mental health.  

[freesia]

Oh this is a hard one and I feel for your dd as an oldest child and fit you having to navigate this.  We had a similar situation ( although without the screaming.) My oldest dd has finally just this week realized that her sister has the same screen time rules but that the device looks different. We use downtime to block most apps on our youngest dd’s phone.  We have always had a dumb kids phone. Ds used an iPad with his drones. Is that a possibility for your youngest?  I don’t think you should reward your dd for screaming but I wonder if there is something else you could do. 12 is young for a smart phone. Also evaluate how often your ds gets privileges early or if there is any favoritism ( even if it’s from more attention bc if special needs or a high commitment sport.). This is totally my baggage, but my screaming over similar things came from a place of absolute frustration that my brother had most of the attention bc of special needs and I did most of the fighting for privileges which he got younger than I. 

[marbel]

For us, age had nothing to do with getting a phone, smart or otherwise. We based it on each kid's need at the time.  In our case, the younger got their own phone first, because that one had a need the older kid did not have at the time. It all evened out eventually anyway, as these things generally do.

I don't find a kid complaining "it's not fair" to be a decent argument on which to base a decision. But then a desire to fly drones wouldn't do it for me either - I'd tell the kid to start saving up their own $$ for that.

Edited August 1, 2023 by marbel

[HomeAgain]

Also, if you get the kids smartphones either you or dh may want to get one as well.  We have a family set up on our phones where I can manage the parental controls, track ds in an emergency (or crowded/unmarked place, like trying to find him at a large cemetery), set limits on his data, and make sure that all apps are approved through us first.

And, I'd highly suggest making the kids take an internet safety course that centers around smart phones and social medial.  Both of mine have had an abundance of classes on the matter but even so, after watching a video where a gentleman applied basic mathematical/coding principles to narrow down a picture someone took to within feet of the original..youngest ds and I had another talk and we went through my own social media, scrubbing it of any pictures that identify our current primary locations.  It made him more aware of how social media works and he's not really interested in setting up anything beyond possibly Discord right now.

[Quarter Note]

30 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Sometimes being fair doesn't look like what you think it does.

Thank you, HomeAgain!  I need to use these words with her.

30 minutes ago, klmama said:

I'd decide she wasn't mature enough to have a phone or that she might need to see someone about her mental health.  

I've tried to talk to her about how the screaming demonstrates a lack of maturity, but I think the basis is more 14-year-old's hormones.  Hard enough in everything!

23 minutes ago, freesia said:

Ds used an iPad with his drones. Is that a possibility for your youngest?

Freesia, this is a great idea I didn't even know about.  We'll look into it!  (We really don't have any internet devices at all besides our main computer - it's all unknown territory to me.)

23 minutes ago, freesia said:

Also evaluate how often your ds gets privileges early or if there is any favoritism ( even if it’s from more attention bc if special needs or a high commitment sport.)

Thank you for much for understanding!  Yes, there is some of this as well, because son has angry-type-ASD, and daughter thinks that we give in to him "all the time" to keep him from having a tantrum.  Managing his emotions is always walking a tight rope - but that's another thread!

 

18 minutes ago, marbel said:

I don't find a kid complaining "it's not fair" to be a decent argument on which to base a decision.

You are absolutely right, Marbel, but her screaming is really hard on me.  Just wondering if anyone has a magical solution that will satisfy her and us at the same time.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Quarter Note

[Grace Hopper]

I would not give in to a hissy fit like that.

[Quarter Note]

7 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

Also, if you get the kids smartphones either you or dh may want to get one as well.  We have a family set up on our phones where I can manage the parental controls, track ds in an emergency (or crowded/unmarked place, like trying to find him at a large cemetery), set limits on his data, and make sure that all apps are approved through us first.

And, I'd highly suggest making the kids take an internet safety course that centers around smart phones and social medial.  Both of mine have had an abundance of classes on the matter but even so, after watching a video where a gentleman applied basic mathematical/coding principles to narrow down a picture someone took to within feet of the original..youngest ds and I had another talk and we went through my own social media, scrubbing it of any pictures that identify our current primary locations.  It made him more aware of how social media works and he's not really interested in setting up anything beyond possibly Discord right now.

Oh wow - I'd never heard of an internet safety course!  That sounds like a great idea!  Do you have one to recommend?

I'm not sure that my husband will ever get a smartphone for us parents.   But he has a very good reason - he is not allowed to have one at work (security reasons), so he doesn't want to pay for something that's unavailable to him for most of the day.  We may have to move in that direction, though, for the reasons you stated.  I'll show him your post and see what he says.  Maybe it will work!

Edited August 1, 2023 by Quarter Note

[Quarter Note]

1 minute ago, Grace Hopper said:

I would not give in to a hissy fit like that.

Well, no, but I do want her to know that we hear her feelings.  It's a delicate balance.

[SKL]

I had that kind of hissy fit when I was 5yo and my 3yo sister and I both got an allowance starting on the same day!  SO UNFAIR!  But I got over it!  LOL.

This would be my take.  They need a smart phone for school.  Teachers do give assignments that assume smart phone use.  It's also for YOU so that you can keep proper tabs on your kids when they are in different places.  It has nothing to do with favoring one child over the other.

If practical, you might consider giving 14yo more free time with her phone than 12yo (subject to responsible behavior).

I also think your 14yo owes you an apology for the screaming.  You might even say "you sure aren't acting mature enough for phone privileges right now."

[Quarter Note]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

You might even say "you sure aren't acting mature enough for phone privileges right now."

Yep - we've said something similar, but it's not making a difference...  Thank you - I'm glad for when the moms have my back!

[freesia]

8 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

Thank you, HomeAgain!  I need to use these words with her.

I've tried to talk to her about how the screaming demonstrates a lack of maturity, but I think the basis is more 14-year-old's hormones.  Hard enough in everything!

Freesia, this is a great idea I didn't even know about.  We'll look into it!  (We really don't have many internet devices at all besides our main computer - it's all unknown territory to me.)

Thank you for much for understanding!  Yes, there is some of this as well, because son has angry-type-ASD, and daughter thinks that we give in to him "all the time" to keep him from having a tantrum.  Managing his emotions is always walking a tight rope - but that's another thread!

 

You are absolutely right, Marbel, but her screaming is really hard on me.  Just wondering if anyone has a magical solution that will satisfy her and us at the same time.

Ok thx. I wondered. In your situation, I would not give him a smart phone right now if I could help it. Actually I wouldn’t. I am sure he does get his way in order to get peace. I’m sure that your dd has been asked to sacrifice things she wants bc of him and his behavior and her behavior is held to a higher standard. It’s just what happens in those situations. Is there any way you could get her family counseling? I wish my mom had insisted. She offered, but I said no. Please give her some privileges and special events/things that he doesn’t get. 

[freesia]

While I am a parent who doesn’t think everything should be fair, I am kind of amazed at this as some of the reactions.  This is a smart phone not a movie. It’s expensive and she’s wanted it for a whole. She’s right that she has been on the outside with peers about this. That is really hard. I don’t think it’s wrong she hasn’t had one younger—mine don’t. But to deal with being the only one without for so long and then have little brother get one is a big deal!

[Quarter Note]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

Ok thx. I wondered. In your situation, I would not give him a smart phone right now if I could help it. Actually I wouldn’t. I am sure he does get his way in order to get peace. I’m sure that your dd has been asked to sacrifice things she wants bc of him and his behavior and her behavior is held to a higher standard. It’s just what happens in those situations. Is there any way you could get her family counseling? I wish my mom had insisted. She offered, but I said no. Please give her some privileges and special events/things that he doesn’t get. 

You understand, Freesia!  We've been trying, and we know she's in a hard situation.  We're also trying to get family counseling (we're on several waiting lists right now).  

We keep telling our kids that they have equal access to our love, our resources, and our energy, but they have different ages, different needs, and different situations.  Balancing all of this is hard!

[Grace Hopper]

11 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

Well, no, but I do want her to know that we hear her feelings.  It's a delicate balance.

Sorry to have been curt in what I said. But it’s not just about age, it’s about circumstances. They are both going out to public school. It’s a communications tool. 

[HomeAgain]

9 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

Oh wow - I'd never heard of an internet safety course!  That sounds like a great idea!  Do you have one to recommend?

I'm not sure that my husband will ever get a smartphone for us parents.   But he has a very good reason - he is not allowed to have one at work (security reasons), so he doesn't want to pay for something that's unavailable to him for most of the day.  We may have to move in that direction, though, for the reasons you stated.  I'll show him your post and see what he says.  Maybe it will work!

The last few ds did were centered around materials here: https://www.missingkids.org/netsmartz/resources

There were several in the resources, but also check with your school - ours has a course they present to parents/kids (so does our youth center).

Most of my house has or currently works in SCIFs, and the phones are left in lockers.  But even 24yo ds uses his often outside of the workplace for going places, using it to store tickets and his debit card.  I also found out last week that he can let me track him.  He was going through a wicked storm and set up his phone before he left to tell me his approximate arrival time and when he stopped.  It's not an every trip feature, but it was an extra bit of security for both of us.  He knew if he was stuck or in a crash, his phone would automatically alert me and I'd come.

[Quarter Note]

Just now, Grace Hopper said:

Sorry to have been curt in what I said.

No worries!  I didn't take it that way.  It's just hard to know where to give in and where not to.

[Grace Hopper]

1 minute ago, Grace Hopper said:

Sorry to have been curt in what I said. But it’s not just about age, it’s about circumstances. They are both going out to public school. It’s a communications tool. 

Should have added, the real issue is going to be what apps to allow. You can definitely make age distinctions there. 

[cjzimmer1]

In our house, a kid gets a phone when it is more convenient for ME for them to have one than not.  So for some kids that was 14 and for some it was 17.  For a kiddo who screamed at me about unfairness, that kiddo would get a dumb phone.  "I" only need them to be able to call/text me so that is what I would be providing.  Throwing a hissy fit about what I did for a sibling tells me kiddo is not mature enough to handle the responsibility of owning and using a smartphone correctly so one will not be provided.  But I'm a mean mom and there is no way I would give in to a hissy fit like that.  

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

Yep - we've said something similar, but it's not making a difference...  Thank you - I'm glad for when the moms have my back!

My kids often don't act right in the moment, but I still feel the need to tell them (hopefully when we're both calmer) that their behavior isn't OK.  They can and should acknowledge that ... even though they may not yet  be ready to put it into action when tensions get high.

As for different siblings having different needs ... this is a balance we negotiate also.  From Mom's perspective, it's not about "fairness," it's about meeting each child's unique needs.  From their perspective, they don't fully understand the different needs and how they translate to different treatment.  But, that's life, right?

Once, one of my kids said, "how is it fair that less ___ is expected of sibling?"  I responded, "if you want to talk about fairness, how is it fair that you were born with a higher IQ and without ___ diagnoses?"  She seemed to understand that.

[Quarter Note]

2 minutes ago, cjzimmer1 said:

In our house, a kid gets a phone when it is more convenient for ME for them to have one than not.

This is a great point!

 

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kids often don't act right in the moment, but I still feel the need to tell them (hopefully when we're both calmer) that their behavior isn't OK.  They can and should acknowledge that ... even though they may not yet  be ready to put it into action when tensions get high.

As for different siblings having different needs ... this is a balance we negotiate also.  From Mom's perspective, it's not about "fairness," it's about meeting each child's unique needs.  From their perspective, they don't fully understand the different needs and how they translate to different treatment.  But, that's life, right?

Once, one of my kids said, "how is it fair that less ___ is expected of sibling?"  I responded, "if you want to talk about fairness, how is it fair that you were born with a higher IQ and without ___ diagnoses?"  She seemed to understand that.

SKL, You are absolutely right.  Thank you for understanding!

[Quarter Note]

9 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

The last few ds did were centered around materials here: https://www.missingkids.org/netsmartz/resources

There were several in the resources, but also check with your school - ours has a course they present to parents/kids (so does our youth center).

Most of my house has or currently works in SCIFs, and the phones are left in lockers.  But even 24yo ds uses his often outside of the workplace for going places, using it to store tickets and his debit card.  I also found out last week that he can let me track him.  He was going through a wicked storm and set up his phone before he left to tell me his approximate arrival time and when he stopped.  It's not an every trip feature, but it was an extra bit of security for both of us.  He knew if he was stuck or in a crash, his phone would automatically alert me and I'd come.

I will definitely look into the course.  Thank you!

I love the idea of the smartphones being used for safety, as well.  We're just very, very slow adopters of new technology. 😉 And my husband works on supercomputers!  It's not that "tech" scares us, it's just we like the peace and quiet of not being leashed to electronics.

[Katy]

The older kids get, the more meeting their current needs matters more than her idea of fair. Life isn’t fair, and these fits are demonstrating she isn’t ready for any smart phone at all. Further, special needs means he will probably continue to need more (time, attention, support) from you for the rest of his life. It doesn’t mean you love either of them more or less. It does mean they have different needs. 

Further, phones are a privilege, not a right. You could meet both their needs to communicate with you by giving them watches that enable you to track their location and for them to take and make calls only to parents. If she ever screams about this again perhaps that’s the way to handle it (with proper warning). 

If she doesn’t have something that’s only hers you might make an effort to find that for her. But phones and hissy fits are not it. 
 

eta: my youngest two both have special needs, and my older kids get the short end of my time and attention most days. That sometimes stinks, but it is what it is. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Katy

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, Quarter Note said:

Oh, friends.  I’ve had nagging and screaming about this for many months now.

Two years ago, daughter was 12 and son was 10.  Both were being homeschooled.  We were in the pandemic.  Both were young.  There was no reason to get either kid a smartphone (husband and I don’t even have a smartphone), despite older daughter really wanting one.

Now, daughter is 14, son is 12.  Both kids are going to public school this fall.  Both kids are out and about in town more.  “Everyone” has a smartphone at public school, and neither wants to be the “only” kid without one.  Son wants to fly drones, and apparently the good ones require a smartphone for control.

We’re okay with getting the kids their own phones with appropriate parental controls.

But daughter is furious that we’re even considering giving her younger brother a smartphone at an age when she didn’t have one.  The screaming, oh, the screaming at the unfairness of it all.

So, one compromise that we’ve come up with is that they both get smartphones with appropriate parental controls, but older daughter gets hers two weeks before younger son gets his, as a symbolic recognition that she is older (this was actually her suggestion, though she doesn't really like it), and that she gets more privileges on her phone than she has on his.

Any suggestions how to be fair to older kid without penalizing younger kid simply for being in a different place in life?

(Warm thoughts and prayers would be appreciated - the screaming is hard on me, and no amount of calm-mom deëscalation techniques can seem to touch her sense of injustice.)

I'm sorry your daughter is making this so difficult.

Currently our younger child has a smartphone and our older child does not -- because we are treating each kid according to their own individual needs. We are looking into getting our older child one this year -- but it will be monitored more closely because he needs that.  I have emphasized to each kid that we are doing what we can for their individual best. And it won't always look equal because they are different kids with different needs.

[marbel]

3 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

We're just very, very slow adopters of new technology. 😉 And my husband works on supercomputers!

My husband has spent most of his life working in tech. He and his colleagues were mostly slow adopters, especially with their kids. 

[Starr]

Eldest children are really not put upon. They don’t get everything first because of birth rights. No one except her will even know they both just got phones. I wouldn’t give in to the screaming 12 year old. Mine are also two years apart and looking back we all see that having three first borns  in the house we were not as understanding of the youngest . What if he wants to date at 15 and she hasn’t yet? There are endless things coming up for kids close in age. Survival hugs for you!
 

[teachermom2834]

I actually do understand your dd. In my case, I was the middle child. My brother got everything (because oldest golden child) but then when my turn finally came my younger sibling (by 5 years!) would get the same (because spoiled baby and not fair for one person to be left out).

So…I know I threw some hissy fits that looked ridiculous but given the context I still think I was right and I’m almost 50 years old. So I get it.

I would get the younger child what the minimum that was necessary to be successful at school. School kids often need some technology. The school might not admit it or require it but they can find themselves hindered without it. I would not send my kid without the tools necessary to be successful, but at that age I wouldn’t be equipping with anything extra. Not just because of the older sister but because I’m of the belief that we unroll the technology as needed because it does come with hazards.

And really the main reason I am posting is that if you are getting your kids smartphones you really need to get up to speed and that probably means getting and using one yourself. I’m not anti-technology but it is a big hairy problem for a lot of families and you are starting out way behind if your kids are adopting the technology and you are not. Most of us can’t keep up with them anyway but at least we are in the loop of possibilities a little. 
 

Best of luck to you. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by teachermom2834

[Quarter Note]

17 minutes ago, Katy said:

eta: my youngest two both have special needs, and my older kids get the short end of my time and attention most days. That sometimes stinks, but it is what it is. 

Thank you so much for understanding, Katy!

6 minutes ago, Starr said:

we all see that having three first borns  in the house we were not as understanding of the youngest .

We are also a family of three first-borns and only one second born. I've tried to be aware of this his whole life.  It's got to be hard on him.  😞 

[Quarter Note]

1 minute ago, teachermom2834 said:

I actually do understand your dd. In my case, I was the middle child. My brother got everything (because oldest golden child) but then when my turn finally came my younger sibling (by 5 years!) would get the same (because spoiled baby and not fair for one person to be left out).

So…I know I through some hissy fits that looked ridiculous but given the context I still think I was right and I’m almost 50 years old. So I get it.

I would get the younger child what the minimum that was necessary to be successful at school. School kids often need some technology. The school might not admit it or require it but they can find themselves hindered without it. I would not send my kid without the tools necessary to be successful, but at that age I wouldn’t be equipping with anything extra. Not just because of the older sister but because I’m of the belief that we unroll the technology as needed because it does come with hazards.

And really the main reason I am posting is that if you are getting your kids smartphones you really need to get up to speed and that probably means getting and using one yourself. I’m not anti-technology but it is a big hairy problem for a lot of families and you are starting out way behind if your kids are adopting the technology and you are not. Most of us can’t keep up with them anyway but at least we are in the loop of possibilities a little. 
 

Best of luck to you. 

Teachermom, you understand so well!  The bolded part is what we're trying to figure out.

[Indigo Blue]

I know someone who used to buy both their children new shoes even if only one of them actually needed new shoes, because “it’s not fair to buy one a pair of shoes and not the other.”

I imagined myself being in your daughter’s place at that age and in that phone situation. Being just a kid, I would feel a bit upset about that….maybe.

But it’s a great learning opportunity to teach your daughter to think differently about it and to grow in maturity. “Yes, but it’s a different situation now. Things are different since you will both be in school and now, at this point in time, you both need phones. I understand this must seem unfair, but we don’t want you to feel that way. Sometimes things just work out this way in life.”

Intentional parenting will help her see her bad attitude and perhaps she can become self aware and learn from that. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Indigo Blue
Clarity

[Innisfree]

44 minutes ago, Quarter Note said:

Yes, there is some of this as well, because son has angry-type-ASD, and daughter thinks that we give in to him "all the time" to keep him from having a tantrum.  Managing his emotions is always walking a tight rope - but that's another thread!

I can relate to this so strongly: we had (have) the exact same dynamic, though as both have grown up a bit, circumstances have changed.

When speaking to your dd, I would tell her that it’s not about age, it’s about circumstances, what each kid needs, and what you need.

At the same time, I would try as hard as possible to meet her genuine need to have the difficulty of living with her brother recognized. I tried to find a group for siblings of kids with ASD, but wasn’t successful; maybe you can find one, though. I know they exist in some places. Maybe you could periodically take a simple trip with her, solo, to give her some respite time and individual attention.  Maybe some counseling just for her. Maybe you can come up with other ways to support her.

We have such a hard time meeting the needs of the kid with disabilities that it’s easy to miss the extra needs of the sibling. They’re real, too. Not meeting them leaves scars.

One more thing: watch for signs of inflexibility or other indications of mild ASD in your dd. We missed it for way too long, because it was so much less obvious that what we were dealing with in our younger dd. You’re almost at the point where it becomes difficult to impossible to get therapy without her cooperation, so try to figure out if she’s been flying under the radar.

Sending lots of hugs and sympathy.

[Grace Hopper]

12 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

 

I would get the younger child what the minimum that was necessary to be successful at school. School kids often need some technology. The school might not admit it or require it but they can find themselves hindered without it. I would not send my kid without the tools necessary to be successful, but at that age I wouldn’t be equipping with anything extra. Not just because of the older sister but because I’m of the belief that we unroll the technology as needed because it does come with hazards.

And really the main reason I am posting is that if you are getting your kids smartphones you really need to get up to speed and that probably means getting and using one yourself. I’m not anti-technology but it is a big hairy problem for a lot of families and you are starting out way behind if your kids are adopting the technology and you are not. Most of us can’t keep up with them anyway but at least we are in the loop of possibilities a little. 
 

Best of luck to you. 

Great point about needing to have a smartphone yourself. You’ll want to be able to keep an eye on their online presence and data usage (if texting only). 

[Innisfree]

Thinking more: I would really emphasize need vs. privilege. I’d even use an analogy to Covid vaccinations. Our kids got their vaccines at the same time, because they needed them. It wasn’t about waiting to be a certain age. The need developed, the vaccines became available, and so the kids got them.

Your need for smart phones developed, because the kids are in school and doing things away from you. Therefore they will get smart phones.

The analogy breaks down if your kids were too young to get the vaccine at the same time, but maybe it would still make sense to your dd. 

[SKL]

25 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

One more thing: watch for signs of inflexibility or other indications of mild ASD in your dd. We missed it for way too long, because it was so much less obvious that what we were dealing with in our younger dd. You’re almost at the point where it becomes difficult to impossible to get therapy without her cooperation, so try to figure out if she’s been flying under the radar.

This is a good point.  She is showing some rigid thinking.  Might indicate something.

[prairiewindmomma]

My thoughts line up with Innisfree’s:

1. Perhaps some of the rigidity you see in your dd is a breakdown in social thinking, skillwise

2. Perhaps the smartphone issue is symbolic of the broader dynamic issues you have the in the home. She may not be aware of the connection, but the degree of her reaction really makes me wonder.

3. Perhaps this is an invitation to really discuss dynamic in a broader way. She may be immature, but I don’t know that her feelings are illegitimate. There’s some nuance there. I think you are running the risk of her jumping ship at 18 and just abandoning family interaction if her perception is that things at home are such that her needs are unmet. Life with SN children is rough—it’s rough for the parents, it’s rough for the siblings, it can be rough for the kid. I see a pattern of NT siblings going far away after graduation because they desperately want/need a space of their own where they can build a network of support for themselves. The parents are surprised and hurt. This doesn’t happen in every family—but it goes back to how the NT kids perceive their circumstances. In families where the NT kids already have that space and support pre-graduation, I don’t see that rupturing happening at adulthood. 
 

4. I’ve been blunt with my kids from the time they were little (most people give their kids phones by grade 3 here)—phones happen on my dime because I need to be able to communicate with them (and I do—we’ve had instances of lockdowns, early dismissals, canceled practices, etc.) and because classrooms use smart phones so heavily. Secondary benefits such as having Spotify or being able to text friends or whatever are lovely, but not necessary. It’s really late to begin those conversations and adjust those expectations at 14, and in immediate anticipation of receiving a phone. Give her a clean slate do-over emotionally. Yes, the screaming was wildly inappropriate AND the reason we call 14 yos young teens is because they are in fact immature in a clinical sense—they do not have the experience and skills of adults. 
 

Ugh. As the parent of young teen girls also (ETA: as well as older college aged kids) in your shoes I would take her out alone for lunch or icecream or Starbucks and just work on rebuilding the relationship with her. That burden kind of still falls on you as mom, but what I see is a kid who is hurting…not a spoiled brat.

Edited August 1, 2023 by prairiewindmomma

[freesia]

2 hours ago, Quarter Note said:

You understand, Freesia!  We've been trying, and we know she's in a hard situation.  We're also trying to get family counseling (we're on several waiting lists right now).  

We keep telling our kids that they have equal access to our love, our resources, and our energy, but they have different ages, different needs, and different situations.  Balancing all of this is hard!

I do understand (I’ve been her!), and it makes me happy that you get it. So many times a mom in your situation downplays the impact on the siblings bc I guess, we don’t want it to be effecting the sibling and if they act sweet we fool ourselves ( I reveled by my parents never found out) I actually can feel her frustration and anger in my chest. Of course she’s trying to figure out a way to make it ok. But it’s not. And it’s not a little matter and it’s really not a situation where your ds has to get the good thing. For her it’s just another example where she needs to bend and he gets what she’s been longing for. But I hope you can see you don’t need to do this. Save these asks for things like the family going to Europe where of course he will be younger.
 

I’m glad you are trying to get family counseling. Even if she eventually refuses, still go for her. The counselor should be able to help you have her perspective. 

[Danae]

“In this family every child gets a smartphone when their mother turns 37.” (Or whatever age you are.)

Edited August 1, 2023 by Danae

[Kanin]

2 hours ago, cjzimmer1 said:

Throwing a hissy fit about what I did for a sibling tells me kiddo is not mature enough to handle the responsibility of owning and using a smartphone correctly so one will not be provided.

I'm not sure a hissy fit correlates with how responsible or not a kid would be with a smartphone. I'd want to evaluate how responsible she is in other contexts before letting her a phone, and definitely before deciding what apps to give her. Is she mature enough to handle texting friends? Sending photos? Accessing Instagram, YouTube or TikTok?

Seems to me the hissy fit is more about resentment about having a special needs sibling (in addition to loving her sibling, obviously)... or maybe it's just a case of not yet having the skills to navigate strong emotions (because teens). In any case, immaturity in one context doesn't mean that a kid is automatically immature in all areas. 

[Melissa in Australia]

4 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

I would not give in to a hissy fit like that.

This. If she was screaming I would tell her she is not ready for a phone. And it will be reviewed in however many months

[Acorn]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

3. Perhaps this is an invitation to really discuss dynamic in a broader way. She may be immature, but I don’t know that her feelings are illegitimate. There’s some nuance there. I think you are running the risk of her jumping ship at 18 and just abandoning family interaction if her perception is that things at home are such that her needs are unmet. Life with SN children is rough—it’s rough for the parents, it’s rough for the siblings, it can be rough for the kid. I see a pattern of NT siblings going far away after graduation because they desperately want/need a space of their own where they can build a network of support for themselves. The parents are surprised and hurt. This doesn’t happen in every family—but it goes back to how the NT kids perceive their circumstances. In families where the NT kids already have that space and support pre-graduation, I don’t see that rupturing happening at adulthood. 

 

This is one of the most insightful things I have ever read when I think of my FOO.  My parents never understood why I moved away to attend college and always assumed I would move back in with them. I don’t think I have consciously thought about how providing unpaid childcare and housekeeping led into other decisions. I do know that the 5 year age gap between me and my younger sibling, caused me to hope my children would be closer in age.

My kids are 2 years apart and received cell phones at the same time. I would have preferred to wait for both of them (entrance to 7th grade and 9th grade) but it was a pandemic, their public school stayed virtual, I needed my phone to hotspot my work laptop. I don’t know much about their setup but I know that if they want to install an app that the request for permission goes to dh’s phone, and dh can control the hours their phones are able to access our wifi. Dh and I are unable to access phones at work, so it had to be planned and discussed. I do think of a phone/internet/social media as a tool they need to learn to use. Some people might need more assistance or supervision. 

[Clarita]

All I got are warm thoughts and prayers. I don't know that there is a right way or fair way for this. 

I see this dynamic between my husband and his brother. He has shrugged his shoulders at a lot, but even as someone mature enough to be a wonderful father and husband, every so often he needs to throw a hissy fit about how he and his brother are treated. He has mentioned one of the nice things about having a wife is someone to complain and be upset about this stuff with. Maybe it'd be nice in general for your daughter to have a different adult (not the parents of her brother) to vent some of this stuff with.

[Quarter Note]

Friends, you are all wonderful.  Your responses have given me many good things to think about.

For those of you who are wondering if daughter may be on the spectrum, too - yes, we've wondered the same thing.  She has wondered the same thing herself.  She does compensate really well in her behavior, so she's been able to go under everybody's radar for a long time.  Maybe when we're not in survival mode we can have her evaluated, but right now we're just trying to get through the days.  Thank you for your observations - they confirm what's been tickling the back of our minds. 

Special thanks to all of you, most particularly @freesia, for advocating for my good girl when my judgement was a little clouded because of being overwhelmed.  She really is a good kid, a great kid, and I love her like crazy, but sometimes I'm too tired to show it!  I'm going to try to look out for ways to make her feel special.  (What she really wants is a trip to Europe - but that's not something I can just make happen quickly!)

And more special thanks to @HomeAgain for the recommendation of videos on internet safety.  I watched some of them last night, and they were very hard to watch, but so important.  I've made a decision that no matter what, watching those videos is going to be a condition of the kids receiving any internet-enabled advice that we pay for.  

I'm overwhelmed with the advice and insights you all gave me.  Thank you!!!

 

[busymama7]

I didn't read the thread but I would be tempted to get the younger one one first due to the attitude. She is not entitled to *anything* like a smart phone 

Incidentally, we do Gabb phones although that doesn't fix the drone issue. I would use an older phone from someone for just that purpose with everything else locked and a password only you know so you can allow him on it when needed but not a free reign.  

I get it that all the kids are doing it but it's so damaging. My 20 something kids *completely* support us not allowing the younger kids smart phones even though they had them (with restrictions but it wasn't good enough)

[Tree Frog]

I can't speak to the phone or special needs issues, but there were 2 times when I was growing up my younger sister received something before me. One was the privilege of being allowed to watch a PG movie before me (remember Grease?). The other was when she received a boombox first when I'd been asking for one for a couple of years. Looking back, they were both very minor in the grand scheme of things. I know I got upset, but at the time, they represented something much bigger to me, that I had to share pretty much everything with my 18 months younger sister and I wanted some things that recognized me first. It sounds pretty selfish, but I was upset enough to clearly remember 35 years later. I got over it and my sister and I laugh about it now (she remembers, too), but it was a big deal. 

[Farrar]

I'm another who might just not give a kid a phone if they were behaving this way. I'd say straight out to the kid, "I've explained why it worked out this way and you've had time to air your annoyance about it, which I understand. But if you persist in complaining about this, then we won't be getting you a phone. So you have a choice to make. Do you want to complain about how unfair this is or get a phone? Because at this point, we won't be doing both."

[City Mouse]

I understand her feelings, and I have had similar discussions with my daughter who is 7yrs older than her brother. There are many things he was able to do that she was not able to do at the same age. However, I would be concerned with the way she is choosing to express her feelings. Is this a new behavior for her, or a common occurrence? You don’t actually need to tell me. How do you react when she is having a screaming fit?

one thing I have done with my DD is to point out the opportunities that she had that he didn’t get to have. She tends to forget about the advantages of being the oldest and instead focuses on what she sees as the injustices. (My DD was diagnosed with autism as an adult but she had  the characteristics all along)