How much are your kids' student loans?

[Sneezyone]

4 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I did find my $60,000 soul-crushing.  But around my later teen years, my parents started to have marital problems and became alcoholics.  So having the debt while feeling guilt and being told it was my turn to take care of them (yep, they said that, my dad even stole my debit card once), it was just really hard to get a good start in life. 

I had/have crushing debt too. Financially abusive parent who used *all* of her kids SSNs before they even knew what credit was, made us feel guilt for being dependent, etc. I get it. I have been able to defer most of mine through the years tho and use IDRs so my debt (at least the undergrad portion) is likely to be forgiven next year and the grad portion by PSLF soon thereafter. We still prioritized saving tho in part b/c I always knew I'd be PSLF eligible...little bit by little bit... and started before they were born ($20-50/mo). So even tho we had to stop for various lengths of time, we're still OK. We are (voluntarily) responsible for siblings and a niece (varying amounts monthly). We haven't been able to start saving for our niece yet but will within the next few months.

 

2 hours ago, Ginevra said:

True, but life is like that. It’s not just student loans that are a gamble on an unknown future. Marriage is; having or adopting a child is; mortgages and construction loans are; putting down roots in whatever place is, and so on. There’s always the possibility that things will not work out, either for you individually or in the National/international sense. Sometimes shit happens and it’s not what you figured on. That’s not unique to going to college. 
 

I think that’s why the smart path is always to hedge your bets as best you can and be prepared to flex big if it all goes to hell in a hand basket. In advising my kids for college, hedging bets looked mostly like: 

1) choose a major wisely;

2) go to the best school you can afford;

3) do the best you can with the circumstances present. 
 

That’s really all any of us can do, right? 

The difference is that student loan debt isn't dischargeable if things go awry. If your marriage sucks...divorce. If your mortgage loan fails, default and restart in 3-5 years. If your child becomes completely unmanageable, I know people who've defaulted on them too and surrendered them to the state (and still practice law). Student loans are uniquely limiting.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

My thinking is if it is going to result in huge debt then they can’t afford it.  

FTR - Staying at home is not an option for many people. It's just not. The alternative is worse than debt. If I applied this approach, I wouldn't be in a position to help my sibling and niece right now. It really is about calculated risk and the calculus will be different for everyone.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Sneezyone

[kirstenhill]

29 minutes ago, marbel said:

Yes, but like so many other things, this varies by the student involved. 

This.  And where “home” is.   Community College and a couple of small “satellite” programs of larger 4 year schools with very limited majors offered is all we have locally.  I guess a student could live at home here and commute 60-90 minutes each way every day to the closest 4 year university campuses (and maybe there are some that do that), but gas and wear and tear on a car would quickly limit the savings compared to maybe finding a cheap apartment with a few roommates.    
 

My DD made it through year 1 debt free and is looking good for year 2 so far with a combination of money earned from working, scholarships, our contribution, and a small amount from a grandparent.  I’m not sure if she’ll make it through all 4 years debt free though - by her senior year she will overlap with her brother, and I’m not sure we can double what we are spending now if he is in a similar position.  

[Sneezyone]

DD won't have debt next year. We declined the offered loans and used our cash on hand and savings. Next year and thereafter, she will use DH's GI Bill. Any leftover cash will be banked for DS. DS will go using our 529 savings alone (plus whatever scholarships he earns). DH and I discussed it and decided that *if* loans were necessary, DS would be the only one we'd trust to have them (and we could help). Match, for him, is more important than net cost (within reason).

Edited July 15, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Kuovonne]

2 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

 

I do think student loans are unique in that they are a bit of a bet on the future.  If you buy a car, you get a car. If you buy a house, you get a house and you can resell it rather easily in most cases.  But with student loans you are gambling … that your degree will lead to higher earning power,

 

I don’t view college this way. I personally decided that college has value in-and-of-itself, not just for its potential to increase earnings. How much value varies from college to college and person to person.

A house has value beyond the physical shelter it provides. A car has value beyond its ability to transport someone to and from work. Thus people borrow money to get more than a bare-bones house or car.

A college education also cannot be repossessed or foreclosed upon. What you get from a college education/experience cannot be taken away (short of brain damage). Once you have a degree, that degree is yours for the rest of your life.

I have family members who had to flee situations with nothing but the clothes on their backs and the knowledge in their heads. I believe in investing in oneself, even if the financial incentive isn’t obvious.

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

There is somewhere in the middle of parents or grandparents paying or going to debt for 100k.

Absolutely. However, just because that middle ground exists doesn’t mean that it is always better than 100k+ of debt.

I get that 100k+ of debt sucks. But when the alternatives suck more, I supported my daughter taking on the debt and shouldered some of that burden myself by co-signing. And I am grateful that we have that as an option (interest and all) versus having to go with a suckier option. It isn’t as if I could manifest a better option into existence.

For those of you who cannot imagine a situation worse than $100k of debt, may you realize how fortunate you are.

To those of you who would not be able  to take on $100k of debt, may you never want to.

[Ginevra]

25 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

The difference is that student loan debt isn't dischargeable if things go awry. If your marriage sucks...divorce. If your mortgage loan fails, default and restart in 3-5 years. If your child becomes completely unmanageable, I know people who've defaulted on them too and surrendered them to the state (and still practice law). Student loans are uniquely limiting.

My point was that none of us really knows what is around the corner. Lots of bad stuff *could* happen from deaths, disabilities, accidents, economic downturns, crime, disaster and so on. 
 

The unique limitations of student loans are the reason I did not want to have them/have my kids have them. But! With mindful decisions, a college degree is IMO, absolutely a risk worth taking, because it is still statistically more likely to lead to a good future. It is not the *only* path to a reliably stable future, but I still believe it’s a really good one. 

[Halftime Hope]

One of the things to keep in mind is that in spite of best efforts of parents, sometimes love shows up attached to a person with life-altering levels of loans.

It really pays for a student to have solid financial practices and goals in mind, because their behavior will deter someone who doesn't have the same goals.

 

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

My point was that none of us really knows what is around the corner. Lots of bad stuff *could* happen from deaths, disabilities, accidents, economic downturns, crime, disaster and so on. 
 

The unique limitations of student loans are the reason I did not want to have them/have my kids have them. But! With mindful decisions, a college degree is IMO, absolutely a risk worth taking, because it is still statistically more likely to lead to a good future. It is not the *only* path to a reliably stable future, but I still believe it’s a really good one. 

Oh, for sure. My debt was very reasonable before law school (I have some regret about not finishing the last year but whatevs). I'm not no debt under any circumstances, just REASONABLE debt. We have provided reliable starter cars, maintenance, insurance through 26, and access to emergency services/credit so they're starting out, even if they do have some debt >$20K (which isn't likely to come from us but from the pesky credit offers that keep showing up in the mail!!) way ahead of the curve. They're beyond blessed.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Sneezyone

[ScoutTN]

56 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

FTR - Staying at home is not an option for many people. It's just not. The alternative is worse than debt. If I applied this approach, I wouldn't be in a position to help my sibling and niece right now. It really is about calculated risk and the calculus will be different for everyone.

I agree. I was one of those kids. For different reasons, it is/will be important for both of my kids to be out and away. 
 

But there is often a less expensive option. One for moderate loan amounts rather than huge ones. Some people go straight to the high-cost, private school options without seriously considering other schools.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, ScoutTN said:

I agree. I was one of those kids. For different reasons, it is/will be important for both of my kids to be out and away. 
 

But there is often a less expensive option. One for moderate loan amounts rather than huge ones. Some people go straight to the high-cost, private school options without seriously considering other schools.

Well, yeah, because people in this position are often under-supported and have no one to talk through the options. I probably could have had a near full ride if I'd accepted Bard's offer a year early. Hindsight is 20/20.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Sneezyone

[athena1277]

Oldest is the only one in college so far.  When she graduates in 2 years, she will only have the federal student loans to pay back, so whatever that amounts to ($24,000?).  She has a full tuition scholarship.  The rest is being paid for by money from the grandparents and working during summer breaks.

[Kuovonne]

37 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

But there is often a less expensive option. One for moderate loan amounts rather than huge ones. Some people go straight to the high-cost, private school options without seriously considering other schools.

There *always* is a less expensive option than going to college.

Who are these people who go straight to high-cost, private school options without considering other schools nowadays? I have never heard of anyone doing this, not even the people I know who could afford high-cost private school for their kids without taking out any loans. While the kids might have ended up at high-cost, private colleges, there was always a discussion of other options.

I think high schools still push college a lot, maybe too much, but they don’t direct kids to only high-cost private colleges.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Kuovonne

[Corraleno]

6 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

Who are these people who go straight to high-cost, private school options without considering other schools nowadays? I have never heard of anyone doing this, not even the people I know who could afford high-cost private school for their kids without taking out any loans. While the kids might have ended up at high-cost, private colleges, there was always a discussion of other options.

I think high schools still push college a lot, maybe too much, but they don’t direct kids to only high-cost private colleges.

The "elite private college or bust" attitude is actually pretty common on College Confidential, from both the students' and the parents' perspectives. In fact, the stark contrast between WTM and CC when it comes to college planning was one of the first things that popped into my mind as I was reading this thread. 

Every year there are threads on CC by students who only applied to schools that were academic and/or financial reaches and are devastated that they ended up with no good options. It's shocking how many students either don't have a safety at all, or their safety is a school that they have no interest in and refuse to "settle" for.

And it can lead to a lot of resentment when a kid gets into an expensive dream school and then parents have to either take out huge loans to make it happen or "crush their dreams" — there are always threads on the parent boards on that topic. I remember a thread in which a mother was trying to convince her pre-med daughter to accept a prestigious Stamps Scholarship (full ride plus thousands for research) at Tulane so they could save money for med school, but the daughter guilted them into paying full price (with loans) for Brown — and half the parents on the thread were on the daughter's side because CC is just ridiculously obsessed with Ivies.

DS's options included an Ivy and a couple of elite privates, and he opted instead for a near-full-ride at an OOS flagship that was highly ranked in his major. The enormous amount of money saved can go towards grad school, a house, travel, and various other things. 

 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Halftime Hope said:

One of the things to keep in mind is that in spite of best efforts of parents, sometimes love shows up attached to a person with life-altering levels of loans.

It really pays for a student to have solid financial practices and goals in mind, because their behavior will deter someone who doesn't have the same goals.

 

Are you suggesting that people who have loans have lesser/more indebted financial futures in mind/on the horizon and won’t make good spouses?

Edited July 16, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Halftime Hope]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Are you suggesting that people who have loans have lesser/more indebted financial futures in mind/on the horizon?

No, more that if it is important to someone not to have life-encumbering loans for any reason, they should cultivate the habits that minimize loans, and live consistently with that value.  They will likely end up with a similarly motivated spouse.

I know people for whom loans were a disaster (low paying career, high cost school) and people for whom loans were a lifesaver, and who paid off huge loans within 4 years out of sheer determination. The loans are just a tool.

[Ginevra]

46 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

There *always* is a less expensive option than going to college.

Who are these people who go straight to high-cost, private school options without considering other schools nowadays? I have never heard of anyone doing this, not even the people I know who could afford high-cost private school for their kids without taking out any loans. While the kids might have ended up at high-cost, private colleges, there was always a discussion of other options.

I think high schools still push college a lot, maybe too much, but they don’t direct kids to only high-cost private colleges.

IME, there is a push from school admins to send kids to large, recognizable Universities and/or Top Tier privates (if the kid can get in). IME, school admins did not restrict kids to in-state publics; they pushed the schools *they* liked, often with the assumption that loans would be fine, because that is the norm. You know what? I’ll name names; my oldest went to a private high school and the admins pushed Bridgewater and Liberty - All. The. Time. And, because my oldest was an exceptional artist, her art teacher pushed SCAD. These may be perfectly nice schools but all three are expensive AF and the ROI for SCAD is notoriously terrible. Not to mention SCAD is not driveable from where we live, so that creates a whole additional expense of plane tickets and storage units or crazy gas expenses to drive an SUV down with their dorm crap. 
 

IF I were a parent who did not involve myself with this decision and just let the school counselors handle it, there is almost zero chance my kids would have even known about or considered the schools they went to. I am virtually certain my oldest would have an art and design degree from SCAD and several tens of thousands of dollars of debt. 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

No, more that if it is important to someone not to have life-encumbering loans for any reason, they should cultivate the habits that minimize loans, and live consistently with that value.  They will likely end up with a similarly motivated spouse.

I know people for whom loans were a disaster (low paying career, high cost school) and people for whom loans were a lifesaver, and who paid off huge loans within 4 years out of sheer determination. The loans are just a tool.

Yeah, I’m just not seeing this connection, in part b/c my DH required no loans for undergrad and grad school. 1) we financed his education in part with my college grad earnings (so we could save the GI Bill) and 2) my oldest will graduate debt free and her spending habits are awful (and I say that as her loving parent). There’s a lot of growing to do there. Her partner is, on the other hand, far more thoughtful. What they have, as we did, is a desire to work together to achieve the same lifestyle using their combined knowledge and resources.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Sneezyone

[Halftime Hope]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Yeah, I’m just not seeing this connection, in part b/c my DH requires no loans for undergrad and grad school because 1) we financed his education in part with my college grad earnings and 2) my oldest will graduate debt free and her spending habits are awful (and I say that as her loving parent). There’s a lot of growing to do there. Her partner is, on the other hand, far more thoughtful.

Well, I'm glad the details are working out for you all. 🙂

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

Well, I'm glad the details are working out for you all. 🙂

As they do for many folks. Outlook on debt and spending is far more significant than having it in the first place.

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, Kuovonne said:

There *always* is a less expensive option than going to college.

Who are these people who go straight to high-cost, private school options without considering other schools nowadays? I have never heard of anyone doing this, not even the people I know who could afford high-cost private school for their kids without taking out any loans. While the kids might have ended up at high-cost, private colleges, there was always a discussion of other options.

I think high schools still push college a lot, maybe too much, but they don’t direct kids to only high-cost private colleges.

Many schools actually do do this, advising students to keep the state flagship as a “safety”. (Which may not be!) And many parents do it too.  I know quite a few families who never considered limiting their child’s college choices due to cost. Private schools only on their lists, though not always selective ones. or maybe a few elite, selective publics.

 

There is a vast middle ground between ultra expensive private schools and no college. Many parents and school college counselors seem to have blinders on that eliminate a large swath of the college and universities.

Edited July 16, 2023 by ScoutTN

[Melissa in Australia]

I prefer the system we have here. There is no interest on federal student loans, though they are indexed to inflation.  A person only has to pay when they are earning over $47k (of some figure close to that) and it is garnished out of their wage like a tax. If you stop work to have a family etc during that time you don't have to pay anything, only while you are earning. If you chose you can pay it down  then some of the dept is wiped.  Not sure of the exact amount currently but when I did it if I paid $1,000 off in a lump sum I think it was $200  wiped off 

[kokotg]

Haven't read the whole thread, but in response to the original question: my oldest just graduated from a SLAC that meets need; the federal loans were part of his aid package and he took them, so he owes around $27,000 right now. His grandparents will help him with some of that, and he'll likely live at home for awhile rent free which will help with the rest. He just started a job that pays very well; it's entirely possible he could pay most of the balance off within a year if he prioritizes it (which he probably will; he's the sort of kid who rarely parts with money voluntarily). He was (partial) pell-eligible, so his $80,000/year sticker price school was as cheap or cheaper for us than a state school would have been even with tuition covered by grants...i.e. he would have needed the loans either way, and I feel like the federal loans will be manageable for him. Kid #2 on the other hand is a music major, and we're hoping to keep loans as low as possible for him because his earning potential is likely lower and he'll probably need grad school (kid #1 might end up in grad school, too, but probably a funded phd program). He's at Vanderbilt, which claims to meet need without loans, and so far (he's about to start his second year) they've been true to their word and he hasn't needed loans. 

[Garga]

God blessed me two years ago with a job out of the blue (out of the blue!). It basically doubled our family income. I am using that salary to pay for my kids’ educations for them. 

They are each attending their first 2 years at the community college where my husband works, so those years are free except for fees and books (nominal.)

The state school for their last 2 years offered $2000 per year, but nothing else. Like someone else said above, it’s not the tuition that’s expensive, it’s the room and board. But the college is an hour away, and it wouldn’t work for them to commute, so we’ll be paying for tuition (minus the $2k) and R&B. 

Rounding up, it’ll cost us about $25,000 per year, so it’ll be $100,000 for the two of them. The 529 we have will cover a quarter of that, so we’ll be paying $75,000 for them ($37,500 each.)

Before the job, I told them that all I could offer was the $25,000 in the 529 and to live at home with us after they graduated rent free, to pay off their loans as soon as they could. 
 

I’m very grateful for that job and am happy to help them get started in life. It truly was a gift out of the blue. We can live on my husband’s salary, so mine can safely go to help the boys.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Garga

[Halftime Hope]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

As they do for many folks. Outlook on debt and spending is far more significant than having it in the first place.

I disagree. While I think outlook is important, a different starting point can hugely effect one's life.

For example, I could not have supported a family or paid for dh's college tuition with my STEM degree straight out of college. I'd have had to go on to get a MS in something or switch to nursing before being able to bring in a decent salary.  I'm glad your degree provided what it did for you two.

 

[Kuovonne]

46 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The "elite private college or bust" attitude is actually pretty common on College Confidential

Wow. I had no idea. I guess the parts of College Confidential where I lurk are different. 

 

46 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

it can lead to a lot of resentment when a kid gets into an expensive dream school and then parents have to either take out huge loans to make it happen or "crush their dreams" — there are always threads on the parent boards on that topic.

I can easily picture a kid having a “dream school or bust” mentality. I find it hard to believe that they were universally encouraged in this mentality, but I can also imagine the kid ignoring any voices trying to temper that mentality, especially if the parents feed into it. 
 

Maybe I just tend to not hang out with people who are financially irresponsible.

34 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

there is a push from school admins to send kids to large, recognizable Universities and/or Top Tier privates

This is like my kids’ private high school. They put a huge emphasis into attending college and getting into top colleges. But even so, our high school tells kids to think about finances and have safety schools.

46 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

a mother was trying to convince her pre-med daughter to accept a prestigious Stamps Scholarship (full ride plus thousands for research) at Tulane so they could save money for med school, but the daughter guilted them into paying full price (with loans) for Brown

But this is a case where the kid/family *did* consider a more affordable option. They just decided against the more affordable option. That is very different from not even considering other options.

34 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

school admins did not restrict kids to in-state publics;

I think that school admins restricting kids to in-state publics is a horrible idea, worse than pushing ivies. I am okay with parents doing so, since parents usually have to pay the fees. But in my opinion, high school admins have no business restricting kids from applying anywhere. 

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I had/have crushing debt too. Financially abusive parent who used *all* of her kids SSNs before they even knew what credit was, made us feel guilt for being dependent, etc. I get it. I have been able to defer most of mine through the years tho and use IDRs so my debt (at least the undergrad portion) is likely to be forgiven next year and the grad portion by PSLF soon thereafter. We still prioritized saving tho in part b/c I always knew I'd be PSLF eligible...little bit by little bit... and started before they were born ($20-50/mo). So even tho we had to stop for various lengths of time, we're still OK. We are (voluntarily) responsible for siblings and a niece (varying amounts monthly). We haven't been able to start saving for our niece yet but will within the next few months.

 

The difference is that student loan debt isn't dischargeable if things go awry. If your marriage sucks...divorce. If your mortgage loan fails, default and restart in 3-5 years. If your child becomes completely unmanageable, I know people who've defaulted on them too and surrendered them to the state (and still practice law). Student loans are uniquely limiting.

My sad reaction is for the experience you had with your own parents; I think that can be a common denominator in stories like these.  Like you, I do not want to see this play out again.  I am staying at home now, but I do think I need to find a way to earn some money.  And perhaps when they are more grown, I will return to work.   

[Garga]

12 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

I think it is wonderful that so many parents here have been able to provide cars, living expenses, pay out of pocket for college, for their kids. It is such a gift and so great to have that start in life. It can make such a difference.

I just hope anyone reading isn’t feeling guilt for not being able to provide that. Some people just can’t and it isn’t because they took too many vacations or didn’t prioritize savings. Some people didn’t have any help from their own parents/grandparents and don’t have and grandparent help for their own kids. 
 

That is wonderful that so many have grandparent help/inheritances, etc. That is a blessing and such a gift. But not everyone has that and people that can’t help their kids with cars and college really shouldn’t feel bad. So many of these discussions seem to go in a way that make it seem super feasible to do it without loans but then when you dig in there is grandparent help etc. 
 

Again, that is a beautiful gift! I hope to be able to give it someday and I would be proud to do it. But I worry that people leave these discussions feeling like all these other people were able to do it so I feel like dirt because I couldn’t. 
 

Somedays the best we can do for our kids is be a cheerleader and emotional support and a soft place to come home and lay their head and do a load of laundry. That is ok too and there is no shame in not being able to finance your child’s college education. But you can be an advisor and support and help them find the most responsible and economical way to meet their goals. 
 

We have had both sides in our family as a ten year age gap and change in fortunes has made difference circumstances for different kids. 

100% this. 

Before I got the job, it would have been impossible to help out the kids other than offering them to live with us rent free to pay off their loans after college.

Our house is in need of repairs from so many years without money to make repairs. My husband’s car is 12 years old. We didn’t go on vacation. We pinched a lot of pennies. We didn’t spend money, yet we still didn’t have much. I would stress (stress!) over whether or not to make $20 purchases (and would usually decide not to). The only time I would buy semi-necessities (like a new coat or a semi-needed appliance or some Ikea furniture) was at Christmas, birthdays, and our anniversary. If it wasn’t a holiday, we didn’t buy things. We waited until the holiday rolled around. Sometimes I waited a few years to get an item, if I needed something else more when a holiday rolled around. There was nothing left over to save for college. Through all that, we did have $25,000 in a 529, but that was because a family member entered a convent and gave all her money away. She put $10,000 in a 529 for our kids and it grew to $25k. 

You do what you can with what you have. There is no shame or judgement if a family isn’t set up to pay for college and simply cannot save for it.

I had friends through this who had two incomes and they easily saved up for their kids’ college education when I wasn’t able to put any money toward my kids’. I could easily have let jealousy get to me, but I put a tight lid on that. You do what you can with what you have and offer your kids what you can, whether it’s a lot or a little.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Garga

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

I don’t view college this way. I personally decided that college has value in-and-of-itself, not just for its potential to increase earnings. How much value varies from college to college and person to person.

…

For those of you who cannot imagine a situation worse than $100k of debt, may you realize how fortunate you are.

To those of you who would not be able  to take on $100k of debt, may you never want to.

I agree with the former. College has value in itself and for some kids, they need it for reasons beyond or more important than career. We’ve made some purposeful decisions with our kids that aren’t what I might have considered ideal before I had actual real kids that sometimes required real world choices that aren’t what I would theoretically have thought was best. 

The other statements ring a bit insensitive though. I expect there are more people besides me who are debt averse, but have dealt with situations much worse that $100K debt, and would have been glad to have their situation solved just by being able to take on debt. It most certainly doesn’t mean someone “can’t imagine a situation worse than $100,000 debt.” And I expect there are others who “would not be able to take on $100k of debt” who have indeed wished they could do so to improve the situation for their kids, but they were simply unable to. 

1 hour ago, Kuovonne said:

Who are these people who go straight to high-cost, private school options without considering other schools nowadays? I have never heard of anyone doing this, not even the people I know who could afford high-cost private school for their kids without taking out any loans. While the kids might have ended up at high-cost, private colleges, there was always a discussion of other options.

I know a number of families who just categorically don’t consider state schools, and particularly not in state ones. Some have their kids apply to one as a safety, but it is very clearly looked down upon and not a choice their kids likely feel is a viable option due to parental attitude about it. 

[Ginevra]

28 minutes ago, Kuovonne said:

think that school admins restricting kids to in-state publics is a horrible idea, worse than pushing ivies. I am okay with parents doing so, since parents usually have to pay the fees. But in my opinion, high school admins have no business restricting kids from applying anywhere. 

I don’t mean the school admin would make the decision. I mean they would never suggest it as criteria. Every college planning meeting I attended told the kids not to consider sticker price in making their lists. And I would turn right around and tell my kid that that’s a garbage piece of advice and yes we were using sticker price as criteria. I didn’t want my kids falling in love with an OOS expensive school and then not getting scholarships big enough to offset the cost* because then, yes, I have to be the dream-crusher and try to sell the affordable school that was always perfectly fine in the first place. 

*I learned this lesson with my oldest. She did apply to OOS schools that she loved, didn’t get much scholarship money, and then had to be told those schools were not happening. Fortunately, she was pragmatic and loved her school anyway but I learned my lesson. 

 

[Kuovonne]

 

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

The other statements ring a bit insensitive though. I expect there are more people besides me who are debt averse, but have dealt with situations much worse that $100K debt, and would have been glad to have their situation solved just by being able to take on debt. It most certainly doesn’t mean someone “can’t imagine a situation worse than $100,000 debt.” And I expect there are others who “would not be able to take on $100k of debt” who have indeed wished they could do so to improve the situation for their kids, but they were simply unable to. 

I am very sorry for being insensitive. I do not mean to be. I very much believe that there are things that are much, much worse than $100k of debt, and I am very, very grateful that my daughter and I are able to take on this debt, even though we are not sure *how* it will be repaid. (I am 100% sure that it *will* be repaid, just not how. If nothing else, my life insurance will cover it.)

But the repeated sentiment on this thread is that people should not incur large debts, and that people who do take out large loans for college should have just looked harder at alternatives.

My point is that it is possible to have “looked hard” and still decide that large debt is still the better choice. And I am grateful that loans were available to give us that choice.

16 minutes ago, KSera said:

I know a number of families who just categorically don’t consider state schools

I guess that my experience is much more limited than I thought. I know families that outwardly appear to want and expect their kids to go to elite colleges, but every single one that I’ve had private conversation with expressed concerns about financing college and considered alternatives. This did not always stop them from incurring debt, but it was not done lightly. Even the family that took out a second mortgage to pay for a child’s dream school did so only after carefully consideration.

[Pawz4me]

31 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

I know a number of families who just categorically don’t consider state schools, and particularly not in state ones. Some have their kids apply to one as a safety, but it is very clearly looked down upon and not a choice their kids likely feel is a viable option due to parental attitude about it. 

I suppose it depends somewhat on the state. Some of us are lucky enough to live in a state where the flagship is a “public ivy” and the state university system as a whole is very good. If someone wants to look down on UNC, UVA, UMI (and many other similar schools) then it seems to me that’s mostly showing their own ignorance. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Pawz4me

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I suppose it depends somewhat on the state. Some of us are lucky enough to live in a state where the flagship is a “public ivy” and the state university system as a whole is very good. If someone wants to look down on UNC, UVA, UMI (and many other similar schools) then it seems to me that’s mostly showing their own ignorance. 

Yeah, UVA isn’t on DSs list b/c NOT COLD ENOUGH, lol.

[Kuovonne]

14 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I don’t mean the school admin would make the decision. I mean they would never suggest it as criteria. Every college planning meeting I attended told the kids not to consider sticker price in making their lists.

Thanks for the clarification. 
 

I’m a bit ambivalent about how to consider sticker price. I think that costs should be a factor in choosing a college. But sticker price for college currently has very little correlation to the actual final price of attendance. And it is very hard to tell the actual final price of attendance until after you apply and see what scholarships and financial aid you get.

18 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I didn’t want my kids falling in love with an OOS expensive school and then not getting scholarships big enough to offset the cost* because then, yes, I have to be the dream-crusher

I guess this is another family difference. My kids have know since they were young that applying for a program, getting into a program, and actually attending a program are three very different things. Just because you apply and get accepted into a program does not mean you get to attend said program. One of my daughters was ten when she really wanted to attend an exclusive summer program. I told her she could only go if she got in under certain conditions. She got in, but not all of the conditions were met, so she didn’t go. End of story. No hard feelings. Years later when she was a bit older, she wanted to attend a different exclusive summer program that was also financially out of reach. She applied, got in, but still no scholarship. But she was really resourceful and found a way to attend anyway that did not place a financial hardship on the family. If I hadn’t let her apply, she would have missed out on both the program and the experience of figuring out how to make the program financially possible.

For me, not letting my kid apply at all would be more of a dream crusher than telling her that we cannot afford it, which she would have known all along.

But every kid and every family is different. Some parents might have a harder time telling their kids no. And some kids might have a harder time hearing no.

[regentrude]

13 hours ago, Scarlett said:

My thinking is if it is going to result in huge debt then they can’t afford it.  

But you have to factor in the Return on Investment. Borrowing for a highly marketable degree that has a high starting salary can be a financially wise decision.  What amount of debt makes sense for an engineering major may be very different from what is a good decision for a classical languages major. 

DD borrowed to finance her MS in Computer Science and recovered her expenses in a short time.

Edited July 16, 2023 by regentrude

[Carrie12345]

I have no idea how much my son has in student loans. 18k? 40k? 🤷‍♀️

He was a full time cc student at 16, went through some stuff, and is now finishing up a music production degree at 25. He hasn’t taken my advice or dh’s since 15; his ex-stepmother encouraged these decisions and his bio dad backed them up. He regrets some of them.

Kid #2 is so afraid of debt that she won’t put her medical bills on the card we provided her, and gets nervous about her rating when I use the account.  
So we’ve got two extremes!  
Her EMT education was paid through volunteering and work. She’s good with money and is getting some assistance through work for paramedic school next year.  
We paid for DE.

Youngest adult has put off higher education because she isn’t sure what she wants to do. I’d like her to do some cc in the meantime, but support her decision to not go all in without a plan.

I’m doing low-cost cash-flowed college right now. I might take out 10-20k or so if I go through with a masters, but my future income is mostly icing so it would go to paying that back first.

We couldn’t offer cash for college for 5, so we offer/Ed opportunities. Even the adults have the option to live here rent free plus perks. But their choices are there own.

[Eos]

9 hours ago, kokotg said:

Haven't read the whole thread, but in response to the original question: my oldest just graduated from a SLAC that meets need; the federal loans were part of his aid package and he took them, so he owes around $27,000 right now. His grandparents will help him with some of that, and he'll likely live at home for awhile rent free which will help with the rest. He just started a job that pays very well; it's entirely possible he could pay most of the balance off within a year if he prioritizes it (which he probably will; he's the sort of kid who rarely parts with money voluntarily). He was (partial) pell-eligible, so his $80,000/year sticker price school was as cheap or cheaper for us than a state school would have been even with tuition covered by grants...i.e. he would have needed the loans either way, and I feel like the federal loans will be manageable for him. Kid #2 on the other hand is a music major, and we're hoping to keep loans as low as possible for him because his earning potential is likely lower and he'll probably need grad school (kid #1 might end up in grad school, too, but probably a funded phd program). He's at Vanderbilt, which claims to meet need without loans, and so far (he's about to start his second year) they've been true to their word and he hasn't needed loans. 

Echo this but reversed order on kids.  Oldest also had Pell grants but did not attend a meets-need school. He paid off about 40K in loans quite easily over ten years as a chemical engineer. Youngest is not getting Pell grants as we're now a family of three. She will also have the 27K in federal loans. We have taken several small PLUS loans over the years.

I don't have debt aversion.  Neither of us had family money or help (kids are first-gens on dh's side) and we made financial choices that allowed us to homeschool.  I don't regret our choices to borrow because we have cash flow just not savings.  I will happily pay as much of my kids' college debt as I possibly can. We have property we can sell if we can't work, and we have life insurance.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Eos

[TexasProud]

m

Edited July 16, 2023 by TexasProud

[regentrude]

To answer the original question: both my kids only took the Federal loans they were eligible for, and we parents will be paying them off to give out children the gift of a debt-free undergraduate education. We decided to take out the loans to maintain liquidity and cash flow flexibility. 
We were able to do that because I chose to work part-time while raising and homeschooling my kids and increased hours to full-time when DD left for college. For several years, my entire income went pretty much completely towards my kids' tuition.

Edited July 16, 2023 by regentrude

[Ginevra]

7 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

I’m a bit ambivalent about how to consider sticker price. I think that costs should be a factor in choosing a college. But sticker price for college currently has very little correlation to the actual final price of attendance. And it is very hard to tell the actual final price of attendance until after you apply and see what scholarships and financial aid you get.

However, it does for in-state publics (where I live). This is a big part of the reason I did not (after first child) nurture the possibilities of going OOS. It’s a bit like going into a German bakery, hoping the pastry you want to try will happen to be no-sugar-added strawberry tarts with cauliflower crust. 😄 I mean, it *might* be, but I’d rather hedge my bets and go to the organic market bakery. 

 

7 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

guess this is another family difference. My kids have know since they were young that applying for a program, getting into a program, and actually attending a program are three very different things.

I did have one other experience with a kid applying to a private with a ridiculous sticker price, and in that case, I told him constantly the conditions on which he could go there. (They were: repeatable scholarship, scholarships that make the price comparable to public, and being willing to live at home and commute if it comes to that.) He did get those scholarships, but found more security in the public option because maintaining scholarships is harder than not having them. And commuting was not very appealing for either of us. 
 

So. *For me/my kids* what has made the most sense is to look at our in-state options and figure out which of those choices is best for the kid’s intended major, best for the social needs of that kid and has (its guesswork, but still) the best chance of getting kiddo successfully earning a worthwhile degree in four years with little or no debt. I recognize that some of this is the luck of where I live and not everyone has, say, five good in-state choices that are no more than two hours drive away. I also recognize that not all US states have substantial subsidies for in-state taxpayers; I have been told that my immediate north gives virtually no relief for public in-state students. 

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

But you have to factor in the Return on Investment. Borrowing for a highly marketable degree that has a high starting salary can be a financially wise decision.  What amount of debt makes sense for an engineering major may be very different from what is a good decision for a classical languages major. 

DD borrowed to finance her MS in Computer Science and recovered her expenses in a short time.

It is a big risk for actual unknown return.  

Many of these young kids end up hating their high income field or not being cut out for it in other ways.

Sometimes mental health goes very wrong and a young adult will never be able to work enough to pay off 100k.  

Sometimes the economy tanks and there are no high paying jobs.
 

 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Ginevra said:

However, it does for in-state publics (where I live). This is a big part of the reason I did not (after first child) nurture the possibilities of going OOS. It’s a bit like going into a German bakery, hoping the pastry you want to try will happen to be no-sugar-added strawberry tarts with cauliflower crust. 😄 I mean, it *might* be, but I’d rather hedge my bets and go to the organic market bakery. 

 

I did have one other experience with a kid applying to a private with a ridiculous sticker price, and in that case, I told him constantly the conditions on which he could go there. (They were: repeatable scholarship, scholarships that make the price comparable to public, and being willing to live at home and commute if it comes to that.) He did get those scholarships, but found more security in the public option because maintaining scholarships is harder than not having them. And commuting was not very appealing for either of us. 
 

So. *For me/my kids* what has made the most sense is to look at our in-state options and figure out which of those choices is best for the kid’s intended major, best for the social needs of that kid and has (its guesswork, but still) the best chance of getting kiddo successfully earning a worthwhile degree in four years with little or no debt. I recognize that some of this is the luck of where I live and not everyone has, say, five good in-state choices that are no more than two hours drive away. I also recognize that not all US states have substantial subsidies for in-state taxpayers; I have been told that my immediate north gives virtually no relief for public in-state students. 

Yep, when I look at VA options, yes, we have a 'public ivy' but it's not necessarily cheaper or better than a comparable public or private school offering better merit aid. Yes, DS's chances of getting in are good-great but it's just not that affordable for us compared to the schools he'd prefer up north. Public colleges to the south of us are CHEAP, CHEAP in comparison for in-state residents. Some states are a net exporter of college kids. Importer states represent opportunities to me. http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?submeasure=61&year=2018&level=nation&mode=data&state=

Edited July 16, 2023 by Sneezyone
Flipped terms

[Annie G]

11 hours ago, Kuovonne said:

 

 

But the repeated sentiment on this thread is that people should not incur large debts, and that people who do take out large loans for college should have just looked harder at alternatives.

 

I don’t necessarily see the responses leaning towards large loans are always bad, just that they need to be balanced with what happens when the loan payments begin. If a student takes out large loans to obtain a degree with high earning potential, there’s at least a reasonable chance they won’t face crushing debt for 25 years, But taking out high debt with no real earning potential to pay it back can turn 4 years of college life into decades of stress over ever increasing debt.  When payback begins, if the person is on income based repayment , they may have low enough income to have zero payment. But the interest continues to accrue. Then later if they DO earn more, their debt is much higher than it originally was. 
All of that is to say that whether or not it’s smart to take out loans for school is nuanced by each student’s situation.  That’s mostly how I read this thread. 

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

It is a big risk for actual unknown return.  

Many of these young kids end up hating their high income field or not being cut out for it in other ways.

Sometimes mental health goes very wrong and a young adult will never be able to work enough to pay off 100k.  

Sometimes the economy tanks and there are no high paying jobs.
 

 

Yes, there are risks that cannot be eliminated. Bad stuff happens. But as parents we often have resources and insight that can help to balance out the risks. We know our kids. 

If something disastrous happened and my Dd needed smallish loans to finish undergrad, Dh and I would consider risking that. For Ds, no way; he’s too unpredictable. 
 

We have helped Dd to see the value in some areas of study that she initially dismissed, but could have significant impact on her earning ability upon graduation. 
 

There are always some decent paying and high paying jobs in the US, even in a recession. Fewer and harder to get, probably. May depend more on who you know when there is a glut of qualified people. But someone is always profiting. During these sorts of times, students may need to shift focus, add a major, consider a different geographic region, and generally be more creative and flexible than in easier times.

And there are some general truths that can be factored in. Engineers make more than History majors. Borrowing large amounts for a humanities degree is probably not wise in terms of ROI. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by ScoutTN

[ScoutTN]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Yep, when I look at VA options, yes, we have a 'public ivy' but it's not necessarily cheaper or better than a comparable public or private school offering better merit aid. Yes, DS's chances of getting in are good-great but it's just not that affordable for us compared to the schools he'd prefer up north. Public colleges to the south of us are CHEAP, CHEAP in comparison for in-state residents. VA is a net exporter of college kids. Importer states represent opportunities to me. http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?submeasure=61&year=2018&level=nation&mode=data&state=

It was affordable to be a wahoo when I was a student. No longer!

[livetoread]

12 hours ago, Ginevra said:

F I were a parent who did not involve myself with this decision and just let the school counselors handle it, there is almost zero chance my kids would have even known about or considered the schools they went to. I am virtually certain my oldest would have an art and design degree from SCAD and several tens of thousands of dollars of debt.

I have a relative who pretty much did go right there while hardly considering other options. Parent was also "sold on the dream" and expected kid to get more in scholarships. When she didn't, they were both already too invested, so SCAD it was. Relative graduated with 70k in debt, and that was living as simply as she could back in the late 2000s. Relative never did work in that field. 

 

[Bootsie]

The benefit from attending an in-state school versus an out-of-state school (without considering scholarships) varies greatly depending upon what state you are in and what alternative state you are considering.  I know that in some states out-of-state tuition runs about $13,000 per year and I know some states in-state tuition is more than that.  Also, some states offer in-state tuition for students from neighboring states or offer in-state tuition for children of alums even if they no longer live in that state.  The options for in-state educations are many in some states and few in other states.  Also, the cost differential between community college and a state university is vast in some states and negligible in other states.

Our commitment to our children was that we would pay for tuition and fees for an undergraduate degree at a local in-state school, where they could live at home.  We said that depending upon our circumstances, and what they wanted to do, we would try to do more.  Both of our children chose private universities and were able to attend without incurring debt.  In at least one case, it would have cost more to send the child to an in-state public school because of the specifics of the child's situation.  But, there were choices made along the way.  DH had a tuition benefit through his employer that he would lose if he retired.  He continued working two years longer than he had planned (at least with that employer) to maintain that tuition benefit, while I worked at a job 275 miles away.  Our "new" vehicle is 13 years old.  DD has never had a car, which has been a significant savings, but it also meant that there were times DH and I drove almost 300 miles one way to pick her up for a holiday break.

Our goal was for our children to get a solid undergraduate education (not necessarily the most prestigious or glamorous) with them incurring as little debt as possible so that they could finance graduate/professional school if they wanted.  

[mommyoffive]

I don't have kids of this age yet, so I can't speak to it.  But we really want them to not have high loans at all and have told them that over and over.  Hopefully with some of the ideas posted here we can do that. 

Dh and I both had loans, it for sure effected our lives. It would have been awful to have double, triple or even more than that.  I regret mine for sure now that I have been a stay at home mom for almost 2 decades.  I wish that I wouldn't have gone to private college.  There were family reasons why this happened, but I wish I wouldn't have sunk to the pressure that everyone was giving me that college was the only option.  And even if that was to go about it a different way. 

[mom31257]

@Kuovonne, I don't expect dd's loans to be forgiven; however, if something had been passed to forgive part or all of it, that would have been a nice surprise. 

[Shelydon]

On 7/15/2023 at 6:31 PM, Kuovonne said:

There *always* is a less expensive option than going to college.

Who are these people who go straight to high-cost, private school options without considering other schools nowadays? I have never heard of anyone doing this, not even the people I know who could afford high-cost private school for their kids without taking out any loans. While the kids might have ended up at high-cost, private colleges, there was always a discussion of other options.

I think high schools still push college a lot, maybe too much, but they don’t direct kids to only high-cost private colleges.

I know lots of kids who only apply to the most expensive college in my state. It is $60K a year for tuition, fees and housing. You are required to live on campus the first 2 years. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

None of my kids have any debt so far. I still have one to go though. 
 

Oldest went to a very very $$$$ college but on a full ride that even had stipends. She saved those and ended up with over $20,000 in savings which they used for part of a down payment on a home. If she hadn’t been offered that, she would’ve ended up paying about $8,000 a year at a different, but also expensive school, after her merit and financial aid. For us, the state school was the most expensive out of pocket option since dd had great aid everywhere. 
 

2nd went to trade school and we were able to pay that as he went (never more than $1200 a semester, often only $600-800).  He got a job right out of school making over $30 an hour and just took a different job making $56 an hour. ETA: he just turned 22 so I feel that’s a pretty good outcome. 
 

3rd skipped college and self trained to be a paralegal. She makes fairly good money and is able to work from home most days. She goes to the office once a week. 
 

4th will be trickier but he’ll figure it out. I know with more income now and no other kids at home, they’ll expect us to pay more than the offers oldest dd got before she took the full ride. He may need to commute to the local university and that’s ok, we’ve mentally prepared him for that. He doesn’t want debt and won’t be ok with more than a small amount so he’ll go with the options that match that. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e