House sizes (first world)

[DawnM]

I found this interesting.   I know families with 4 kids (like I have) in different parts of the world live in much smaller spaces than we (Americans) do.   We are downsizing and we are looking at a couple of homes we feel are below our min. size requirements and it has sent me on a quest.

So many places in the world live in much smaller homes than we (in the US)  live in.   

https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house/

The average home in Hong Kong is less than 500 sq. ft?   Yikes.   I don't think we could fit our family of 6 in 500 sq. ft.   The only homes in Hong Kong I have been in were much larger than that, but I know how densely populated HK is.

[regentrude]

Comparing average house sizes isn't as relevant as comparing living space per person.

But people elsewhere also have way less stuff. Two-car garages overflowing with stuff so that the cars don't fit, and the abundance of storage facilities are typical American phenomenal.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by regentrude

[HomeAgain]

I saw a gorgeous 350sq ft apartment in China on a program once.  The architect had designed it with moving walls and brilliant storage, which made it more spacious than other homes.

We have about 2000 sq ft here for the 5 of us.  There is some storage, much more than our 1800sq ft house previously.  It makes a HUGE difference.  This house has a place to store my vacuum, a small pantry, and a closet next to the front door.  There's a hall closet for linens upstairs and two storage closets.  It means I don't miss the large, but terrible walk in closet in my old bedroom or the large, but terrible pantry in my old kitchen.  I have storage here designed to store things.

I've lived in small, I've lived in large, but if it's not useful, the actual floor space doesn't matter as much.

[Ginevra]

I think it’s interesting how the size of an American house has grown exponentially over the decades. (Last I looked, I think this has leveled off or decreased in recent years, after maxing out in the late 90s/early 2000s.) But yes, people used to assume two, or even three kids, would share one bedroom, and most people did not have multiple places to eat (like: dining room, kitchen island, bar seating). 
 

I think in many places in Europe, there isn’t the same amount of room for sprawl, so this bigger-bigger-bigger trend didn’t happen. Real estate is too constricted. 

[teachermom2834]

We are also looking to downsize and I just can’t seem to wrap my brain around it and figure out what size we really want/need. 
 

However, we really don’t have stuff the way most people do. Our need to store stuff moved on with the kids. All we really ever had was sporting and recreational equipment /  clothes/ toys/homeschool books and supplies and we just don’t hold onto stuff past its usefulness. We also don’t have the generations of belongings and furniture and keepsakes that many of my peers have. We have never been of the means to invest in anything much that outlasted its usefulness and for better or for worse we are very free with giving away things we are not using.

So…I really do think we can significantly downsize. But there is something scary about it. I’m afraid we make this big move when prices are so high only to find we really did need the space. Paralyzed by indecision. 

[DawnM]

31 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Comparing average house sizes isn't as relevant as comparing living space per person.

But people elsewhere also have way less stuff. Two-car garages overflowing with stuff so that the cars don't fit, and the abundance of storage facilities are typical American phenomenal.

 

 

And yes, we have WAY too much stuff!   "We" meaning ME!

[DawnM]

25 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

We are also looking to downsize and I just can’t seem to wrap my brain around it and figure out what size we really want/need. 
 

However, we really don’t have stuff the way most people do. Our need to store stuff moved on with the kids. All we really ever had was sporting and recreational equipment /  clothes/ toys/homeschool books and supplies and we just don’t hold onto stuff past its usefulness. We also don’t have the generations of belongings and furniture and keepsakes that many of my peers have. We have never been of the means to invest in anything much that outlasted its usefulness and for better or for worse we are very free with giving away things we are not using.

So…I really do think we can significantly downsize. But there is something scary about it. I’m afraid we make this big move when prices are so high only to find we really did need the space. Paralyzed by indecision. 

This is me too!   We are cutting our home size by 40% most likely.   Smaller rooms isn't an issue.   If there are the same number of rooms but they are smaller, that is fine, but the homes we are looking at aren't like that.   They are missing rooms.   As in, one had no dining room and no family room.   It was still a decent sized house, so it was weird.   None of them have bonus rooms because they are older homes.   You can't get land on newer homes, land is a thing of the past, so an older home it is.

[DawnM]

30 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I think it’s interesting how the size of an American house has grown exponentially over the decades. (Last I looked, I think this has leveled off or decreased in recent years, after maxing out in the late 90s/early 2000s.) But yes, people used to assume two, or even three kids, would share one bedroom, and most people did not have multiple places to eat (like: dining room, kitchen island, bar seating). 
 

I think in many places in Europe, there isn’t the same amount of room for sprawl, so this bigger-bigger-bigger trend didn’t happen. Real estate is too constricted. 

Yeah, I remember in LA people would buy houses for the land it was on, rip out the small home, and put up mini-mansions (or what we thought were mini-mansions back then!).  We used to call them "McMansions."   

But yes, not only has America decided we need bigger and better for homes, but kids today want it straight away.   They don't realize we started in a 900 sq. ft. 2 bedroom rental and lived there until they were 6 and 8 and we moved. 

[DawnM]

33 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

I saw a gorgeous 350sq ft apartment in China on a program once.  The architect had designed it with moving walls and brilliant storage, which made it more spacious than other homes.

We have about 2000 sq ft here for the 5 of us.  There is some storage, much more than our 1800sq ft house previously.  It makes a HUGE difference.  This house has a place to store my vacuum, a small pantry, and a closet next to the front door.  There's a hall closet for linens upstairs and two storage closets.  It means I don't miss the large, but terrible walk in closet in my old bedroom or the large, but terrible pantry in my old kitchen.  I have storage here designed to store things.

I've lived in small, I've lived in large, but if it's not useful, the actual floor space doesn't matter as much.

If that was for one person, I have looked at some of those, mostly in NYC where people have put in mobile furniture, moving walls, etc....

But for a family of 6, that would be a nightmare.

 

[DawnM]

You know what really got me thinking about this?  

Yesterday I watched an episode of Little House on the Prairie and their house was so tiny and like a tiny house.......a loft for the kids to all bunk together, and a bedroom under the loft and the main room and kitchen......that's it!   

[maize]

It bugs me that, for the US at least,  the figures used for "average" are actually only the average size of new construction homes. A tiny fraction of the population lives in new construction. 

Most Americans live in much smaller homes than the average size of new homes built in the past decade or two. 

This article indicates that the median age of homes in the US varies from 26 years in Nevada to 63 years in New York.

https://todayshomeowner.com/home-finances/guides/median-home-age-us/#:~:text=At the other end of,tied at 32 years old.

[HomeAgain]

13 minutes ago, maize said:

It bugs me that, for the US at least,  the figures used for "average" are actually only the average size of new construction homes. A tiny fraction of the population lives in new construction. 

Most Americans live in much smaller homes than the average size of new homes built in the past decade or two. 

This article indicates that the median age of homes in the US varies from 26 years in Nevada to 63 years in New York.

https://todayshomeowner.com/home-finances/guides/median-home-age-us/#:~:text=At the other end of,tied at 32 years old.

Also, the function of the home has changed quite a bit.

We forget that porches used to be usable living spaces for much of the year.  Families would gather outside, in the shade, and use it as a second living room.  Now, many new porches are 3-4 feet wide, just large enough for the appearance of a porch, but not the functionality of one. 

Homes used to have a general living area closet or space (pegs, coat tree, etc) for outer wear.  Closets in bedrooms were much smaller.  Now bedrooms can have closets the size of small rooms taking up valuable functioning space, but without designating a function for all of it.  Same with oversized bathrooms.  The function is still the same, but it takes up 2-3 times the amount of living space.

McMansions tend to have all sorts of odd features that are just space-takers, but not function givers: catwalks, odd shaped rooms, poorly laid out kitchens and bathrooms...

I think older homes have a better chance of being designed with function in mind (er, except for the odd half-architecture of the 70s, with sunken living rooms and split levels).  I think architects have forgotten how to build something that works for people instead of looking pretty on HGTV.

[Katy]

Our last house was a bit larger than this house (about 100 sq feet), but it felt much larger because it was open, with a huge kitchen, less but larger rooms, and lots of closets and storage areas. I had it 100% organized and decluttered. 

In the pandemic I thought it was too open. Mostly because kid noise was overwhelming at times. But now that I’m in a different house I’m finding I really want my storage areas back. And I need to declutter a lot more because there simply isn’t space for all of this stuff. I find myself fantasizing about adding on to the house to make this kitchen and pantry the size of the last one, and having a separate area for the exercise equipment than the tiny space behind the basement sofa. 

At any rate, I’m finding I need to go through the battle to declutter all over again with each family member. And it seems to be much more difficult to keep more stuff from coming in this time. 

When DH retires I’d love to temporarily move onto a sailboat and circumnavigate. But I imagine handling that totally differently and giving quantity limits rather than picking out stuff to get rid of. Quantity limits here seem arbitrary and controlling. 

[Brittany1116]

We are 4 in 1760 sf. It's a great size for us. We were house shopping last year and could have easily done 1500 if I didn't need a home office (not desk work, but textile work so more of a dedicated craft room). My apartment in college was 450 and enough for one. Our first place when married was just under 1000 and okay for two. I can't fathom a world where we would want 3-4000 sf or more.

[Pawz4me]

It seems to me that many houses in the US are poorly designed, with so much empty/unusable space that's only meant for looks (dramatic multi-story foyers and things like that). People are paying a lot to heat/cool empty space. As our boys, particularly oldest DS, have been in various apartments over the years I've really been struck by how much a well designed space means. I've seen some one bedroom apartments that have more practical, usable space than some multi-bedroom homes.

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, DawnM said:

I found this interesting.   I know families with 4 kids (like I have) in different parts of the world live in much smaller spaces than we (Americans) do.   We are downsizing and we are looking at a couple of homes we feel are below our min. size requirements and it has sent me on a quest.

So many places in the world live in much smaller homes than we (in the US)  live in.   

https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house/

The average home in Hong Kong is less than 500 sq. ft?   Yikes.   I don't think we could fit our family of 6 in 500 sq. ft.   The only homes in Hong Kong I have been in were much larger than that, but I know how densely populated HK is.

People in Hong Kong have less stuff. It's also less common to entertain at home - people meet in parks or got to restaurants. 

[DawnM]

1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

People in Hong Kong have less stuff. It's also less common to entertain at home - people meet in parks or got to restaurants. 

Yes, there is no way more stuff would fit!

[DawnM]

40 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

It seems to me that many houses in the US are poorly designed, with so much empty/unusable space that's only meant for looks (dramatic multi-story foyers and things like that). People are paying a lot to heat/cool empty space. As our boys, particularly oldest DS, have been in various apartments over the years I've really been struck by how much a well designed space means. I've seen some one bedroom apartments that have more practical, usable space than some multi-bedroom homes.

AGREED!

[Faith-manor]

35 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

It seems to me that many houses in the US are poorly designed, with so much empty/unusable space that's only meant for looks (dramatic multi-story foyers and things like that). People are paying a lot to heat/cool empty space. As our boys, particularly oldest DS, have been in various apartments over the years I've really been struck by how much a well designed space means. I've seen some one bedroom apartments that have more practical, usable space than some multi-bedroom homes.

I agree. Very poorly designed and especially when one considers the future costs of climate change.

Our kids are not interested in homeownership. They have done the math. How long do they need to live in one place to build enough equity to break even much less make any money on the investment? How much of their life will be taken with maintenance, repairs, lawn? What happens financially to their employers relocate them, and they are paying rent in one place while trying to sell the old home? In the end, for them, home ownership is a bust. They can't count on being with any one employer in a single location long enough to be worth the sink of funds. The two bachelors share a very well laid out, well thought out three bedroom, two bath apartment with a balcony in a convient, walkable location so that they can share a car, and on the weekends, rarely drive that car unless they are coming home to visit. The rent is reasonable for what they get. The utilities are less to heat and cool vs. the average utility bill for homes in the area. They are sinking the savings into emergency savings, short term investments, and long term. Though neither of them have been at their first career jobs longer than 10 months, they have six months salary paid, are contributing to their 401K's for the employer matching, and have small investment accounts all while budgeting for their student loan payments to commence shortly.

I think homes need to change a lot for the needs of GenZ and upcoming GenAlpha as well as for the climate disasters that will be ever increasing. The bulk of homes I see now are going to be so very problematic soon.

[Farrar]

I feel like the issue of American oversized homes has different causes. My house was built in 1907. It didn't originally have electricity! It was really well designed for life in 1907, but not so much for today. We've had to make changes, obviously. But there are elements that get good use like our giant pocket door, which helps the first floor divide or be open.

But a lot of Americans are living in homes from the last fifty years that just weren't that well designed for anyone.

I do think in urban areas that some places have figured it out a bit better. I visited a single friend the other day who lives in a teeny one bedroom apartment. But his space is set up so well! It's very compact, but very well designed and he had the whole place renovated to be that way before he moved in. Plus, there are nice communal spaces in his building.

[maize]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

I feel like the issue of American oversized homes has different causes. My house was built in 1907. It didn't originally have electricity! It was really well designed for life in 1907, but not so much for today. We've had to make changes, obviously. But there are elements that get good use like our giant pocket door, which helps the first floor divide or be open.

But a lot of Americans are living in homes from the last fifty years that just weren't that well designed for anyone.

I do think in urban areas that some places have figured it out a bit better. I visited a single friend the other day who lives in a teeny one bedroom apartment. But his space is set up so well! It's very compact, but very well designed and he had the whole place renovated to be that way before he moved in. Plus, there are nice communal spaces in his building.

Communal spaces for entertaining would go a long way towards making small home living more acommodating. I don't have any good space for entertaining, which hasn't been a big issue because I also don't have time or energy for entertaining but as my kids grow up I envision a desire to be able to host groups including their friends and eventual families, and workable space for that would be nice. 

[Laura Corin]

10 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I feel like the issue of American oversized homes has different causes. My house was built in 1907. It didn't originally have electricity! It was really well designed for life in 1907, but not so much for today. We've had to make changes, obviously. But there are elements that get good use like our giant pocket door, which helps the first floor divide or be open.

But a lot of Americans are living in homes from the last fifty years that just weren't that well designed for anyone.

I do think in urban areas that some places have figured it out a bit better. I visited a single friend the other day who lives in a teeny one bedroom apartment. But his space is set up so well! It's very compact, but very well designed and he had the whole place renovated to be that way before he moved in. Plus, there are nice communal spaces in his building.

Our house was built in 1797. It's pretty well built for the climate, in the terms of the day - small rooms and only moderately-high ceilings.  The small rooms offer privacy and sound control for different activities.

There are some things that are hard to upgrade to modern levels of warmth and insulation,  partly because there are limits to what you can do to historic buildings. 

Most UK homes were built before 1919.

[Farrar]

7 minutes ago, maize said:

Communal spaces for entertaining would go a long way towards making small home living more acommodating. I don't have any good space for entertaining, which hasn't been a big issue because I also don't have time or energy for entertaining but as my kids grow up I envision a desire to be able to host groups including their friends and eventual families, and workable space for that would be nice. 

My friends who lived in co-housing had this. I feel like the whole set up of co-housing is probably not for me because I like to hole up and not be bothered for stretches. And my mother briefly considered it and I was like, are you kidding me? You cannot live in co-housing. You are WAY too critical and particular and you know this about yourself (which, thank goodness she agreed). But I also see the huge benefits. They had a giant green space lawn that everyone has a little patio on. And then they had a big community space that was big enough for communal meals and could also be reserved for entertaining. My friend hosted us there doing things multiple times. We had a lovely potluck of friends there. It's a huge airy space with a giant kitchen and a big interior balcony. 

Basically, these things exist. Obviously singles and couples living in large apartment buildings in urban areas tend to have these types of communal spaces. But also, they exist for families and multi-generational living as well. They're just uncommon right now in the US.

[Farrar]

6 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

Our house was built in 1797. It's pretty well built for the climate, in the terms of the day - small rooms and only moderately-high ceilings.  The small rooms offer privacy and sound control for different activities.

There are some things that are hard to upgrade to modern levels of warmth and insulation,  partly because there are limits to what you can do to historic buildings. 

Most UK homes were built before 1919.

Yes, we like our small rooms most of the time for those exact reasons. I think small rooms that can be divided or opened up are a big bonus to a home, but rare in American open concept, broad spaces living.

American laws don't typically preclude literally gutting the place to update it. If we wanted to gut our house and start over with the interior with just the shell, we could. The neighbors did that. But we don't have the desire or cash for that.

[wintermom]

3 hours ago, DawnM said:

This is me too!   We are cutting our home size by 40% most likely.   Smaller rooms isn't an issue.   If there are the same number of rooms but they are smaller, that is fine, but the homes we are looking at aren't like that.   They are missing rooms.   As in, one had no dining room and no family room.   It was still a decent sized house, so it was weird.   None of them have bonus rooms because they are older homes.   You can't get land on newer homes, land is a thing of the past, so an older home it is.

Personally, I find a separate "dining room" and formal "living room" are a complete waste of space. They duplicate the function of the eat-in kitchen and family room. They are often over-sized as well. Great rooms to cut completely if you're downsizing, IMO. I see many newer, mid-sized houses dropping this duplication. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by wintermom

[Kidlit]

We have almost 3000 sq feet for 6 people, downsized from about 4000. Still, two kids share a bedroom. We have a huge entry/mudroom That's kind of wasted space and a nice sized dining room that's only used occasionally (extended family meals, etc.). Our kitchen and living room take up the width of the house on opposite sides of the first floor. The master bedroom takes up the width of one side of the house upstairs.  The house was built around 1980 IIRC. We do have a lot of space, and I'll admit we're spoiled to it.   I can't imagine going down to 2000 with this many people at home, but I also recognize I'm spoiled to it. 

[SKL]

How many house-owners in the developed world have families of 6 though?

[SKL]

I didn't like the trend toward bigger houses while that was going on.  I mean just the cost and fuss of heating/cooling it, cleaning it, etc.  I always felt it was for showing off.

My house is not small, but I share it with 2 other adults as well as my kids.  Still, as we get older, I think a lot about how we're going to keep up with it.  Already the two who are in their 60s have very limited ability to do physical tasks.  Most likely, unless my teens grow into a domestic bent, it's going to be me against this whole house.  I'll have to hire a lot done, assuming I can afford it.

I don't want to move, ever, because it's a pain and I like my house and location.  But if I do move (without housemates), it will be to a much smaller place.

[Condessa]

4 hours ago, Ginevra said:

But yes, people used to assume two, or even three kids, would share one bedroom, and most people did not have multiple places to eat (like: dining room, kitchen island, bar seating). 

I remember my great grandmother telling me all about her home and family when she was young.  They lived in a three-bedroom home on a farm with eight kids.  She and her sister shared a bed and two of their brothers shared a bed in the room, and the other four boys shared the other room.  They did not consider themselves poor.  This was normal.

[Kidlit]

I do think we'll downsize one day, especially considering we're in a two story home. I don't really see that happening for at least a decade, though.  Also, with the cost of housing rising, it's painful to think that downsizing might cost us more than our current home cost. 

[Longtime Lurker]

@DawnM, your sons have a bigger age range so that may necessitate more space as it is harder for them to share. But also, older houses tend to have more separated rooms (less open plan), which may be an advantage with their age range and differing needs.

[Faith-manor]

We upsized for a home near Huntsville that has the ability to house our immediate family, kids and their life partners, plus grandkids not just for entertaining, but to also be a multi-generational living option. That said, we are considering selling it in a couple years (it is prime real estate so it shouldn't be an issue), and investing back here in northern, lower peninsula Michigan because it will be a much better place to live as the planet heats and climate events get worse. Buying or building another multi-generational house in the areas we are looking would not be financially feesible so we aren't sure what we will end up with.

[rebcoola]

The homes are so badly designed we have friends that live very comfortably with 5 kids in 1500sq ft because the house works.  When we were shopping the older homes and newers homes were overall bad layouts. 

The manufactured homes almost univerally have lovely functional layouts but of course they dont hold value the same.

[Pawz4me]

4 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

 

The manufactured homes almost univerally have lovely functional layouts but of course they dont hold value the same.

I've been impressed by some of the "cookie cutter" houses I've been in, the ones that aren't silly McMansions. People like to make fun of cookie cutter developments, but many of the floor plans are very functional with good flow and no wasted space.

[Clarita]

5 hours ago, DawnM said:

The average home in Hong Kong is less than 500 sq. ft?   Yikes.   I don't think we could fit our family of 6 in 500 sq. ft.   The only homes in Hong Kong I have been in were much larger than that, but I know how densely populated HK is.

First and foremost the average family in Hong Kong doesn't have 4 kids. Yes that was the case back when my parents were small, but most families I know there has at most 2 kids and a lot have 1 or 0 kids.

Secondly in places where housing is dense and super small you don't entertain a lot at your home and the community is built around that. So, in a nice community there, there are a lot of communal spaces for you to use to entertain your guests. The city also has a lot of entertainment venues for friends to meet up and hang out in. Eating out is a lot cheaper. (I lived at my aunt's 400 sq. ft. place for a few months, the apartment is for sleeping and storing your stuff.) Their furniture also maximizes storage space, there isn't as much empty space in their furniture (space under the bed, empty space in closets, etc.). 

American homes are built because we have a lot of space. People here are just use to that and it's the market. Places that have smaller homes, the homes and the community are also built accordingly. 

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

We have about 2000 sq ft here for the 5 of us.  There is some storage, much more than our 1800sq ft house previously.  It makes a HUGE difference.  This house has a place to store my vacuum, a small pantry, and a closet next to the front door.  There's a hall closet for linens upstairs and two storage closets.  It means I don't miss the large, but terrible walk in closet in my old bedroom or the large, but terrible pantry in my old kitchen.  I have storage here designed to store things.

THISSS!!!!!!! When we were house shopping I'm pretty sure I came on here to vent about the lack of say, a coat closet, or a place to store a broom and vacuum! Not to mention really horrid kitchen design. It became VERY obvious that newer homes were built with the expectation that people are gone all day and eat out and hire someone to clean their home for them. Plus the "2 car garage" is for "2 small cars as long as you don't have to actually store lawn equipment", again showing that the expectation is you will hire someone to do lawn work, rather than have a mower and trimmer/edger, maybe a wheelbarrow, etc. 

4 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Homes used to have a general living area closet or space (pegs, coat tree, etc) for outer wear.  Closets in bedrooms were much smaller.  Now bedrooms can have closets the size of small rooms taking up valuable functioning space, but without designating a function for all of it.  Same with oversized bathrooms.  The function is still the same, but it takes up 2-3 times the amount of living space.

McMansions tend to have all sorts of odd features that are just space-takers, but not function givers: catwalks, odd shaped rooms, poorly laid out kitchens and bathrooms...

I think older homes have a better chance of being designed with function in mind (er, except for the odd half-architecture of the 70s, with sunken living rooms and split levels).  I think architects have forgotten how to build something that works for people instead of looking pretty on HGTV.

again, yes. I really think that having architects/designers/builders/whatever that are male, have never had to cook many meals, or figure out where to keep the vacuum cleaner is the issue. 

1 hour ago, wintermom said:

Personally, I find a separate "dining room" and formal "living room" are a complete waste of space. They duplicate the function of the eat-in kitchen and family room. They are often over-sized as well. Great rooms to cut completely if you're downsizing, IMO. I see many newer, mid-sized houses dropping this duplication. 

I mean, that depends on the size of the family and ages and how often you entertain, etc. We can't even all fit at our eat in table in the kitchen (6 of us) so we use the dining room table pretty often. Ours has the "front room" as we call it as a joint dining/formal living room, then you walk through that to the area with the family room and kitchen, which are divided by breakfast bar type thing. I REALLY like having a room in front that is NOT for kids playing or where you can see my dirty dishes in the sink when you first come in. Makes me feel calmer if someone comes to the door, given that the family room likely has a stack of books toppled over from school work, random drawings my DD6 has been doing scattered on every flat surface, a bin of dolls that has spilled onto the floor, and as much as I wish otherwise, a few half empty glasses and on many days, a random sticky popsicle stick somewhere. All this gets picked up every day, but it doesn't STAY picked up for longer than an hour, lol. Add in the dishes that may not have fit in that last load in the dishwasher, a pan in the sink, somebody's pizza box that didn't fit in the trash and is sitting on the counter to go out to the can in the yard next trip, etc and I'm thrilled that I have a separate, adult space that stays somewhat picked up when people come to the door. Now, someone with better homemaking skills or fewer kids and pets might not appreciate that as much, I'm sure. 

[teachermom2834]

I grew up in a family of five in an 1100 sq ft house with one bathroom. We shared a driveway with a neighbor and when we had multiple cars we had to park them on neighboring streets. Up north in really harsh winter weather. It never occurred to us that any of this was difficult or inconvenient. So perspective is just a funny thing.

I will not even take a vacation with even my dh and teen dd with just one bathroom. We’ll do a quick trip in a hotel if there is a bathroom in the lobby. But obviously my family of five survived for as long as it took to raise the kids all sharing one bathroom. And we weren’t even the type to send the boys to pee outside. Lol. 
 

Sometimes I can convince myself we can manage with all those things (limited parking, limited bathrooms) because I did it growing up. But somehow that isn’t true. I have seen the other side and I can’t go back. 

[ktgrok]

As for space, we lived with 4 kids and 5 pets in 1450 sq ft for years and years and years. It was okay when the kids were small and DH wasn't working from home. As the kids got older we had issues, partly due to the age/gender spread. DS1 and DS2 are just too far apart in age for them to have shared a room - having a toddler who put everything in his mouth and could and would break whateve he touched in with a night owl teen who has ADHD and lots of expensive electronics (he paid for himself) wasn't going to work. So although we had 4 kids in a 3 bedroom, it meant oldest DS got his own room, and DD1 and younger DS shared. Which was great for the first few years. But as older DD got into puberty that was not working as well. Yes, they all changed clothes in the bathroom (a habit she still has now, even with her own room) but she needed space from him, they clashed on room decor, and moreoever, HE was about to start puberty. I didn't need him dealing with that with a girl in his room and I didn't need her dealing with her pad leaking at night sharing a room with a boy. just, no. 

And younger DD started out in a crib in their room, but as she needed a bigger bed there was literally no room without going to bunks and she was a daredevil and DS had no concept of safety and I KNEW one would have pushed the other off and ended up on their head on tile floor. No one believed me that it was unsafe to put in a bunk bed, but I can promise you, there would have been ER visits. My kids are climbers with no fear. And clumsy. Bad combination, lol. 

So then younger DD ended up with her "room" being what was supposed to be a family room but we had been using as a school/play room since the littles bedroom was small and didn[t have much room for their toys. .We put her in a daybed in their, and used it as a couch for read alouds and school stuff and her bed at night.  It was open to the rest of the house, so no privacy. She was young, and didn't really understand that was a "bad" thing, but eventually she would have. And honestly, it was sort of awkward to explain to people. And we had to walk through it at night to let the dogs in and out the backdoor, hoping not to disturb her. 

We did it, and I put a smile on and called myself adaptable and smart for making it work. But again, puberty issue with middle kids was lurking, and we were trying to figure out if we could close off the family room and put a narrow hall to the backdoor, and move younger DS in there and have DD1 and DD2 share, or what. But then DH started working from home full time. In my masterbedroom. and that was the final straw. 

Y'all, once I had to keep the kids quiet all day as he was in zoom meetings, and couldn't use the master bathroom because his coworkers would hear me flush, and couldn't just retreat to my room for 10 minutes of quiet mid day, that was it. I was done. I went from a big smaile and a motto of "love grows in little houses" and "we just have to be creative - it's like Little House on the Praire" to "we need to move or I'm going to start killing people" real fast. REAL fast. Like, there was no way my sanity and my marriage would both survive.

Thankfully we found a great house, and DH's career had made huge strides financially, and we more than doubled our space. We are now in 3100, and I do feel almost greedy and embarrassed to have so much space. BUT I also feel I "paid my dues" in the old house, lol. (did I mention that for the entire time we lived in that house, until we were prepping to sell it, one of the showers had leaking tile so we couldn't use it? So it was really a 1.5 bath house for 6 people). 

Sadly, we have expanded to fill the space, and I desperately need to declutter. But, some of it is GOOD stuff - like I never would have had the space (mentally OR physically) to take up quilting in the old house! But yeah, I need to declutter. Mostly school stuff, and cleaning stuff. 

I will say, that although the kitchen is twice the size sq ft wise of my last one, it is NOT better. DH redid the old kitchen after we had a flood in it, so it was optimally designed by the two of us. This one has those old cabinets with the center bar in each which blocks the middle of each cabinet,  and I swear the height is higher so I can't reach anything but the bottom shelf, and those weird half shelves in deep bottom cabinets that I can't reach without bending down to the floor, etc etc. Tons of wasted space in the pantry too. And honestly, bigger just means I'm taking more steps to put stuff away! Like, the dishwasher is across the kitchen from all the drawers and cabinets. And there is very little counterspace right by the stove, etc. It looks all proportional and balanced, but blech. I seriously could NOT get over how I had more room and more cabinets and yet everything fit so much better in the smaller kitchen in the old house. 

Eventually we WILL tear out the cabinets and redo them properly, but if the trade off is that DH has an office that is NOT my bedroom, we have a bonus room for school/videogame console/long arm, we have room for cousins to play upstairs while adults hang out downstairs and gossip, etc....I trade all that a million times over for a badly designed kitchen. 

Oh, and it has TWO linen closets AND a closet under the stairs for cleaning stuff. 

Honestly, my only complaint on layout is that the laundry "room" is more the size of a laundry hallway, and does function as the hallway from the garage to the house, so no room in there for anything but the actual washer and dryer. I'd love an area with room for sorting hanmper/baskets. But again, whatever. I can fold and sort on my bed where no one is holding zoom meetings!

[ktgrok]

19 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I grew up in a family of five in an 1100 sq ft house with one bathroom. We shared a driveway with a neighbor and when we had multiple cars we had to park them on neighboring streets. Up north in really harsh winter weather. It never occurred to us that any of this was difficult or inconvenient. So perspective is just a funny thing.

I will not even take a vacation with even my dh and teen dd with just one bathroom. We’ll do a quick trip in a hotel if there is a bathroom in the lobby. But obviously my family of five survived for as long as it took to raise the kids all sharing one bathroom. And we weren’t even the type to send the boys to pee outside. Lol. 
 

Sometimes I can convince myself we can manage with all those things (limited parking, limited bathrooms) because I did it growing up. But somehow that isn’t true. I have seen the other side and I can’t go back. 

I grew up in Florida with no air conditioning until I hit junior high and we moved. I managed growing up, but nope, I can't go back, lol. It sucked. 

[ktgrok]

I will say, I think lifestyle REALLY impacts how much space you need. If we were not homeschooling, and didn't have DH working from home we'd need less space for sure. But when you are with each other ALL DAY EVERY DAY....especially for those years during the worst of the pandemic....space becomes a mental health issue for some of us. 

I love my family, but not enough to want to be on top of them 24/7. 

Heck, I get annoyed NOW when I go into my room for a break after lunch and DH is already there. Mainly because to. me, break means "silence". To him, break means "watch tik tok videos" or "nap while snoring loudly". Not really compatible, but I also can't really justify kicking him out back into his home office when he's in that room the rest of the day. 

I usually try to go downstairs and hope that DD6 doesn't follow me to put Bluey on the TV, or worse, Ryan videos, lol. 

The school room is actually usually available, but I need better seating in there. WE put the daybed in there, but it turns out it isn't actually comfortable for using as a couch. I think I'm going to look at getting a cheap futon instead, something more cozy. 

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I grew up in Florida with no air conditioning until I hit junior high and we moved. I managed growing up, but nope, I can't go back, lol. It sucked. 

The things I start telling my kids are doable because I did them growing up…then I think nevermind we aren’t doing that!

 

[Clarita]

@ktgrok I love your description of how you lived with less space. 

Yes, I could see myself living in much less space. Do I want to? No. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Clarita
Not in an arrogant way because there are things that I like about living in Hong Kong, but this is where I ultimately chose to live. So clearly I do like this lifestyle.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Layout matters.  I lived as a child in a two bedroom single wide trailer. At that point my parents had five kids.  They had six kids in a three bedroom double wide that, looking back, felt ridiculously spacious because of how well designed it was.  And despite homeschooling and being home all day, my mom’s expectation is that we spent hours outdoors.

Then we lived in a four bedroom home with one bathroom and eight kids.  It really was fine.  The layout wasn’t great, and my mom never liked the house, but again we didn’t have a lot of stuff, you didn’t dress or put makeup on in the bathroom, and we spent a lot of time outdoors.

The last house I lived in was a four bedroom home when we purchased it.  It had two half baths: one had a shower and a toilet, and literally right next to it sharing a wall was a half bath with a toilet and a sink. The washer was in one room and the dryer in the other room.  It was so bizarre and probably contributed to how cheap we got it for.  But here’s the thing about that house with four tiny bedrooms upstairs(literally we could fit a bed and two dressers in the largest one):  the family that had lived there since the 1920s had raised thirteen kids in that house.  Our neighbor was a granddaughter of the original family and confirmed that all the kids did live at home at the same time for a few years before the oldest married and moved out.  And it was fine.  They just had completely different expectations of how many possessions they needed and how and what space was used for.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, Clarita said:

@ktgrok I love your description of how you lived with less space. 

Yes, I could see myself living in much less space. Do I want to? No. 

You know, that is it. I COULD live in less. But I don't want to, and I refuse to continue pretending it was a virtue. It was a necessity, not a virtue. It is no longer a need. 

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, wintermom said:

Personally, I find a separate "dining room" and formal "living room" are a complete waste of space. They duplicate the function of the eat-in kitchen and family room. They are often over-sized as well. Great rooms to cut completely if you're downsizing, IMO. I see many newer, mid-sized houses dropping this duplication. 

I don't see any new homes being built in our area without formal dining rooms and separate family rooms unless the houses are quite small -- and they don't really build small homes here because the land costs are so high and the builders need to build large, expensive homes if they want to make any money.

I wouldn't be without a separate dining room and formal living room, and I also want a separate den.. and separate offices for all of us... and a separate art studio for me... and the list goes on. 😉 I don't like everyone being forced to use the same living area, and although we have a breakfast room off the kitchen, we still also use our formal dining room every day, so having multi-use rooms wouldn't really work for us. I also like our multi-story great room and catwalks because it makes the house feel spacious and airy, but only one of our three houses has that feature, so obviously I can live without it, too -- and I will admit that the open concept design is sometimes more of a nuisance than a benefit, so it's something that won't really be a dealbreaker either way when we buy our next house.

But I may feel differently than many on this thread because I am a big house person. We are only a family of 3, but we have no desire to live in a small house.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

.  And despite homeschooling and being home all day, my mom’s expectation is that we spent hours outdoors.

 

I do think having livable outdoor space helps a ton. In florida it is SOOOOOOO hot so much of the year, and so buggy in some places (aka our yard) that it is just miserable. BUT if you have a nice deck with a good roof with shade and fans to keep the bugs from landing, it can be really nice at certain parts of the day/year. My parents have a small house now, they totally redid the layout so combine two rooms so it functions well and then they have a BIG outdoor space. The patio has a good roof with roll down shades even, plus two ceiling fans. It is shaded by the house on two sides as well. In the middle of the day it is too hot much of the year, but in the evening or during the cooler times of year it is fantastic, and had a big outdoor dining table, a love seat, and two chairs. When she had us all over we often end up with half of us at least outside, and the kids inside watching TV, or vice versa, and if it is cool enough or we've been swimming we eat out there for family meals. 

Our current big house has ZERO outdoor areas like that. We really want to put a porch/patio/something out back as we all really like being outside like that. Oldest DS spends hour a day in a hammock outthere with a busted up patio umbrella for shade, and I go out in the evening usually for 20 minutes to sit in a plastic chair, once it is cool enough. The back of the house faces East so if we could put up a deck or patio it would be lovely for eating dinner out there, as it would be cool enough at least 60% of the year, and unlike our last house is NOT buggy. The last house had CONSTANT battles with mosquitoes, giant random bugs flying out you, etc. This one, for whatever reason, hardly any. We do have a TON of wolf spiders, but we like them. I have held off using any pesticides at all out there because I'm terrified of upsetting the ecosystem and getting mosquitos. (or maybe the city sprays for them, I don't know, lol)

[Catwoman]

8 minutes ago, Clarita said:

@ktgrok I love your description of how you lived with less space. 

Yes, I could see myself living in much less space. Do I want to? No. 

 

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

You know, that is it. I COULD live in less. But I don't want to, and I refuse to continue pretending it was a virtue. It was a necessity, not a virtue. It is no longer a need. 

 

I agree. I could live in less space than I have, but why would I? I can always downsize in the future if I decide I need less space, but we can afford our current lifestyle, so I see no reason to settle for less. I don't judge anyone by the size of their home. As long as they're happy, it's all good. We all have different needs and different priorities, and that's fine with me.

[Janeway]

One thing I have found interesting is that different parts of the US count square footage differently. I grew up in houses that list as 1200 square feet or such, but they were close in size to my house that lists as closer to 4000 square feet where I live now.

[QueenCat]

41 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I wouldn't be without a separate dining room and formal living room, and I also want a separate den.. and separate offices for all of us... and a separate art studio for me... and the list goes on. 😉 I don't like everyone being forced to use the same living area, and although we have a breakfast room off the kitchen, we still also use our formal dining room every day, so having multi-use rooms wouldn't really work for us. I also like our multi-story great room and catwalks because it makes the house feel spacious and airy, but only one of our three houses has that feature, so obviously I can live without it, too -- and I will admit that the open concept design is sometimes more of a nuisance than a benefit, so it's something that won't really be a dealbreaker either way when we buy our next house.

But I may feel differently than many on this thread because I am a big house person. We are only a family of 3, but we have no desire to live in a small house.

I totally get this. Well, except I'm trying to imagine catwalks inside the house. There are three of us and a little over 5000 square feet of finished space. Everyone has their own office/study area. Ds has his in the finished basement, along with a good-sized living room area. I no longer have a separate dining room as that's where my office area is. BUT our dining area off of the kitchen is huge and comfortably fits the table that seats 110. 

We definitely like our space. Shoot, the backyard has three different areas to sit in. The firepit, the dining table on the patio, and some seating on the deck. Granted, we like to entertain. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I will say, I think lifestyle REALLY impacts how much space you need. If we were not homeschooling, and didn't have DH working from home we'd need less space for sure. But when you are with each other ALL DAY EVERY DAY....especially for those years during the worst of the pandemic....space becomes a mental health issue for some of us. 

I love my family, but not enough to want to be on top of them 24/7. 

Heck, I get annoyed NOW when I go into my room for a break after lunch and DH is already there. Mainly because to. me, break means "silence". To him, break means "watch tik tok videos" or "nap while snoring loudly". Not really compatible, but I also can't really justify kicking him out back into his home office when he's in that room the rest of the day. 

I usually try to go downstairs and hope that DD6 doesn't follow me to put Bluey on the TV, or worse, Ryan videos, lol. 

The school room is actually usually available, but I need better seating in there. WE put the daybed in there, but it turns out it isn't actually comfortable for using as a couch. I think I'm going to look at getting a cheap futon instead, something more cozy. 

I agree with this. We have to keep a dedicated work space away from the main part of the house for Mark since he works remote full time. Even when we had smaller houses, I had to have a dedicated music room because I had a full music studio, and so the kids play area had to be away from the studio, and it had to be a large enough space to accommodate my baby grand, other instruments, library shelves of music, etc. Definitely, there are good reasons for extra rooms.