Our grandson

[Scarlett]

He will be three end of August. He is now permanently kicked out of day care and no one else will take him….he is a biter. DIL has quit her job to stay home with him because no day care will take him.  
 

He is about to start speech therapy which our DIL acts like has something to do with the biting but I can’t imagine what.  I think his speech is ok.  Not the best but certainly he is adding words and clearly wants to say words. But certainly speech therapy can only help.  

We went to the zoo today and they met us there.  He has a thing around his neck which is for biting when he wants to bite.  
 

Our one episode was when he went up a medium size flight of stairs.  I followed him up and did not insist on hand holding.  When he wanted to come back down I did I insist and he did. not. Like it.  He tried to jerk away but I grabbed his hand firmly and told him he had to hold my hand going down.  His response was to turn and attempt to bite my hand that was holding his.  I was fast and stern and it was instantly prevented and solved but DIL saw it and came for him. She said, repeat after me, ‘I’. (Dgs says ‘’I’.), ‘will’ (dgs says ‘will’) and then dgs finished up, ‘ not bite’.  
 

So he knows.  And it is clearly a response to not getting what he wants/total frustration.  
 

It was a fun day.   Very very hot.,

[Drama Llama]

Speech difficulties are very frustrating for kids.  It sounds like your DIL is on the right track getting him help.

[rebcoola]

Speech troubles tend to make frustration worse hence more biting. It won't solve everything.

[Elizabeth86]

I do see how the lack of ability to communicate could be a cause for the bad behavior. I have 4 kids (well 5, but you know) and 2 were very early talkers and 2 of them were very late to communicate well. The early talkers were fabulous toddlers, very well behaved and rational. The late talkers were crazy toddlers. Thinking back to some of their tantrums makes me overwhelmed just remembering. I’m certain these things were related for my kids because the tantrum having toddlers started behaving around the same time they started to communicate well. 

[Brittany1116]

Meh. Maybe. 

My first had 30+ words by one and still hit a biting stage before 2.

My second also bit, but it wasn't learned behavior. He had oral SPD issues and was sensory seeking when he bit. OT helped a lot with that, as well as his auditory avoidance SPD. 

[Melissa in Australia]

I had a younger sister who was a biter. I was 10, she was 3, she bit everyone. The one day , I was holding her hand, I don't remember what for, maybe going down stairs. She went to bite me, I quickly twisted my hand and she bit her own hand. She screamed and screamed. She never bit anyone ever again. ever. to this day ( she is now 39 ) she remembers when she bit her own hand aand how much it shocked her.

[bookbard]

My boy was a biter. It's pretty common, although it would be illegal to kick you out of daycare here - discrimination. It becomes a habit and they don't really understand how much it hurts. He grew out of it eventually. 

[HomeAgain]

I find language acquisition to be an interesting subject. For most of us, we fixate on the first and last words of a sentence when developing language.  "I will not bite" gets stripped down in the brain to "I.........bite."  The brain puts the most importance on the basic noun/verb and leaves the middle as filler. And it'll happen until not only language acquisition catches up, but the developmental maturity to decipher the intent of the sentence and follow the command.  It's partially why the book Don't Touch The Button is absolutely hilarious with this age.  Even if they wanted to, it's really hard for them to not touch the button.  Noun and verb is the first pair developed in language.  They hear "don't", they know what it means, but Touch and Button override it.

 

It sounds like this little boy needs a lot of one on one time to change his coping mechanisms.  I hope he can get that.

[Carrie12345]

My nephew was a biter, with lots of daycare issues, obviously.  No real speech issues for him, just sensory stuff. OT has helped. Honestly, he could also use more firm discipline instead of my sister’s spin on gentle parenting.  
(Please note I said ‘spin on’, not just Gentle Parenting.)

I don’t know if any kids outside of severe needs who don’t outgrow biting. With help, it should fade even faster.

[Scarlett]

49 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

My nephew was a biter, with lots of daycare issues, obviously.  No real speech issues for him, just sensory stuff. OT has helped. Honestly, he could also use more firm discipline instead of my sister’s spin on gentle parenting.  
(Please note I said ‘spin on’, not just Gentle Parenting.)

I don’t know if any kids outside of severe needs who don’t outgrow biting. With help, it should fade even faster.

Interesting.  I have had trouble putting my finger on it because DIL’s words are gentle, like parroted from a script, but she talks way too much, over explains way too much and is very loud and grating.  I am not saying she is the worst mother but I could see how she might get on his nerves.  
 

I saw lots of normal behavior for an almost 3 year old.  He loved the carousel and went twice….but when we moved on forum that he screamed bloody murder.  I could see in his face the transition was very difficult for him. That was our first stop.  Later when he was much more tired the train passed right in from of us and he screamed because he wanted on it.  Also wanting to run off from us ect.  
 

I agree completely he needs much more one on one and CALMNESS.  When we were in the giraffe area my mom and I were sitting on a bench near a poster with a picture of 4 giraffes.  He pointed to each picture and asked me, ‘what’s that?’ I looked straight at him and said clearly, ‘giraffe’.  After the 4th picture he said, almost perfectly, ‘giraffe’.  We praised him and he ran off happily.  
 

I am hoping she will be able to stay home with him for a year or so at least.  Her brother and SIL and new baby moved into their apartment complex and they all hang out a lot so I am hopeful she will be content enough to focus on him for a while.  

Edited June 7, 2023 by Scarlett

[Clemsondana]

One of my kids had speech therapy (they just worked on speech) but I saw bits of sessions with other kids and some definitely had more of an OT interaction.  Between that and dealing with possible frustration, I could see it making a difference.  When my older started biting and was trying to get to my hand to bite when mad one day, I pushed kid's own hand to their mouth.  Kid only bit themselves twice over the course of a day or 2 before they quit.  My thinking was that they needed to know what their biting felt like to the person being bitten - they could do the act of biting, but other people didn't need to be on the receiving end.  

[Katy]

All of these things (biting, language delay, trouble with transitions) are symptoms of autism. Has he had that evaluation yet? 

[Scarlett]

35 minutes ago, Katy said:

All of these things (biting, language delay, trouble with transitions) are symptoms of autism. Has he had that evaluation yet? 

I have no idea.  I am not even sure he has had any sessions with ST. Maybe just evaluation so far?  But hopefully ST will suggest further evaluations.  His mom is on the spectrum.  Yesterday I really saw behaviors from her consistent with that diagnosis.

[EKS]

5 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I had a younger sister who was a biter. I was 10, she was 3, she bit everyone. The one day , I was holding her hand, I don't remember what for, maybe going down stairs. She went to bite me, I quickly twisted my hand and she bit her own hand. She screamed and screamed. She never bit anyone ever again. ever. to this day ( she is now 39 ) she remembers when she bit her own hand aand how much it shocked her.

I was listening to some podcast recently, and it was talking about how children learn not to hurt others.  They were saying that It was through rough and tumble play with someone who does to them what they do to others (in other words, someone who bites back).  Because we now discourage this sort of play, kids don't learn how their actions affect others.  

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I have no idea.  I am not even sure he has had any sessions with ST. Maybe just evaluation so far?  But hopefully ST will suggest further evaluations.  His mom is on the spectrum.  Yesterday I really saw behaviors from her consistent with that diagnosis.

He's a lucky little boy then to have a mom who will understand him and can support him.  

[Scarlett]

23 minutes ago, BandH said:

He's a lucky little boy then to have a mom who will understand him and can support him.  

That is a nice way to think of it. 

[Lawyer&Mom]

My autistic three year old didn’t bite, but she chewed *everything*.  Holes in all of her sleeves! And she was a precocious talker, speaking in full sentences at 18 months.  Good news is that she aged out of the oral stimulation seeking phase.  (All the fancy chew toys we bought didn’t really make a difference, she just grew out of it.)  I would definitely keep autism on the radar.  He’s young enough that he may still qualify for an in-home  early intervention assessment. 

[Elizabeth86]

5 hours ago, EKS said:

I was listening to some podcast recently, and it was talking about how children learn not to hurt others.  They were saying that It was through rough and tumble play with someone who does to them what they do to others (in other words, someone who bites back).  Because we now discourage this sort of play, kids don't learn how their actions affect others.  

That makes a lot of sense! 

[Momof4sweetkids]

If he does get into the early intervention program, they should be able to advocate for daycare. I think it would be considered discrimination for him to not be able to go if he has a dx.

 

My just-turned-2 yo is an early talker and still does lots of biting, scratching, hair pulling, etc

[HomeAgain]

19 hours ago, EKS said:

I was listening to some podcast recently, and it was talking about how children learn not to hurt others.  They were saying that It was through rough and tumble play with someone who does to them what they do to others (in other words, someone who bites back).  Because we now discourage this sort of play, kids don't learn how their actions affect others.  

I was wondering if they had more information on this.

Until about 30 years ago, most children were at home with a parent or in a small care setting (neighbor, family friend, babysitter).  It's only been more recently in history that the majority of children as young as 2 have been in classroom-like settings where the ratio is higher (8-15 in one room).  So I'd be curious as to two things: 

1. the normalcy of this stage in parent-led or small care settings, and the age of growing out of it.  This sort of play would not have happened, but as discipline it might.

2. The prevalence of this sort of play in large care settings and the age of growing out of it. 

And I'd like to see a comparison of the two.

[Scarlett]

20 hours ago, EKS said:

I was listening to some podcast recently, and it was talking about how children learn not to hurt others.  They were saying that It was through rough and tumble play with someone who does to them what they do to others (in other words, someone who bites back).  Because we now discourage this sort of play, kids don't learn how their actions affect others.  

 

1 hour ago, HomeAgain said:

I was wondering if they had more information on this.

Until about 30 years ago, most children were at home with a parent or in a small care setting (neighbor, family friend, babysitter).  It's only been more recently in history that the majority of children as young as 2 have been in classroom-like settings where the ratio is higher (8-15 in one room).  So I'd be curious as to two things: 

1. the normalcy of this stage in parent-led or small care settings, and the age of growing out of it.  This sort of play would not have happened, but as discipline it might.

2. The prevalence of this sort of play in large care settings and the age of growing out of it. 

And I'd like to see a comparison of the two.

Puppies learn a lot through play with their litter mates. When my dog was a new puppy if she nipped me too hard I would yell out in exaggerated pain.  This worked.  
 

Both in this thread and from a mid 60s friend I have read that toddlers never bite again once they experience being bitten.  
 

Not that I am comparing puppies to toddlers…….or encouraging biting toddlers,

[HomeAgain]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 

Puppies learn a lot through play with their litter mates. When my dog was a new puppy if she nipped me too hard I would yell out in exaggerated pain.  This worked.  
 

Both in this thread and from a mid 60s friend I have read that toddlers never bite again once they experience being bitten.  
 

Not that I am comparing puppies to toddlers…….or encouraging biting toddlers,

It's a popular wives's tale.  I'm just not sure it's accurate just because it has been repeated.

Do first children have a harder time learning not to bite than their siblings? 

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

It's a popular wives's tale.  I'm just not sure it's accurate just because it has been repeated.

Do first children have a harder time learning not to bite than their siblings? 

Well with my mid 60s friend it was her own daughter who was the biter.  My friend bit her back….not to draw blood or anything, but it did hurt and she never bit anyone again.  I told my friend that is considered child abuse now.  

[Lecka]

Biters are not “one size fits all.”  Not everyone is biting for the same reason or with the same motivation.

 

My son with autism was a biter and he might bite for multiple reasons, and then it mattered why.  
 

Scarlett — there are so many things going right with your grandson, it sounds like the zoo went really well!!!!!!  
 

I think there’s a lot of room to look at things positively or negatively.  
 

There is a lot of room to celebrate the good with ignoring the bad.  
 

I think very generically too, as far as kids with autism and if their parent has autism or not, there are kind-of inverse strengths and weaknesses.  
 

In some ways, the things that are strengths for one are weaknesses for the other.  
 

I think there are things that are weaknesses, but it’s not all weaknesses.  And it’s easy to not be aware of the strengths and not notice the strengths.  
 

But for people who are around a lot of kids with autism and their parents — I think it’s really noticeable.  I think it’s really obvious then what the strengths are because — not everyone has those strengths.  
 

People can work on their naturally weak areas, and get them a lot better, but it’s not the same situation as having a natural, effortless strength.  
 

Edit:  nothing is making me have an opinion about your grandson having autism, I am just commenting in the conversation.  
 

But I do think it sounds like a positive outing that went well!

Edited June 8, 2023 by Lecka

[chiguirre]

8 hours ago, Momof3sweetgirls said:

If he does get into the early intervention program, they should be able to advocate for daycare. I think it would be considered discrimination for him to not be able to go if he has a dx.

 

My just-turned-2 yo is an early talker and still does lots of biting, scratching, hair pulling, etc

If he gets an ASD dx from Early Intervention, he'll be eligible for the public school's Preschool Program for Children with Disabilities. They will have a a special education teacher and aides and offer OT and SLT on site and usually integrated into the classroom. PPCD is probably the best therapy available unless you live near an independent program that specializes in ASD and accepts your insurance.

[Katy]

7 hours ago, chiguirre said:

If he gets an ASD dx from Early Intervention, he'll be eligible for the public school's Preschool Program for Children with Disabilities. They will have a a special education teacher and aides and offer OT and SLT on site and usually integrated into the classroom. PPCD is probably the best therapy available unless you live near an independent program that specializes in ASD and accepts your insurance.

All of this is true even if you’re in a state where the school district/EI/whoever in your state emphatically says they will not make a diagnosis. DD4 can’t get in for an official diagnosis until almost Winter, more than a year after being referred for one. But her pediatrician, pre-school teacher (with a couple graduate degrees), occupational therapist, and a handful of early specialists through the school district all agree with our thoughts that she’s both very bright and likely on the spectrum. And what’s more surprising to me is that even though she’s caught up or way ahead on all her academic skills, she still gets special education for speech, fine motor, behavioral, and social goals into elementary school. I thought once you were grade-leveled the obligation ended. 

[Clarita]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:15 PM, Scarlett said:

He will be three end of August. He is now permanently kicked out of day care and no one else will take him….he is a biter. DIL has quit her job to stay home with him because no day care will take him.  

I've had friends get speech therapy etc, support for their preschool age and below children through the public school system. It's something the school systems have to do educate the children so even if they aren't eligible yet for public school they have to offer some services if the little kids need special help. It's different per state. I wonder if she could ask her pediatrician about it. 

A lot of children go to some therapy get whatever struggles they are having sorted out and doesn't always lead to anything more.

 I wish daycares and stuff knew more about these programs so they can direct parents for those services instead of just permanently kicking preschoolers out of preschool/daycare.

[Scarlett]

Thanks for all of the helpful info.I wish we had the kind of relationship where I could pass along the info, but we do not.

Dh can somewhat talk to his son, but it is difficult to give info third hand.

[Scarlett]

9 hours ago, Lecka said:

 

Scarlett — there are so many things going right with your grandson, it sounds like the zoo went really well!!!!!!  
 

 

Yes, I agree.  
 

When he was 11 months old his parents separated and stayed apart 2 years.  They have been back together about a month.   The biting at daycare and elsewhere has been a problem for well over a year.  So there is a lot going on.  

[Lawyer&Mom]

22 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes, I agree.  
 

When he was 11 months old his parents separated and stayed apart 2 years.  They have been back together about a month.   The biting at daycare and elsewhere has been a problem for well over a year.  So there is a lot going on.  

That is hard.  Assuming he is Autistic, Autistic kids are not immune to all the emotional issues that a parental separation would trigger.  It just gets layered on top of everything else. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Lawyer&Mom said:

That is hard.  Assuming he is Autistic, Autistic kids are not immune to all the emotional issues that a parental separation would trigger.  It just gets layered on top of everything else. 

Right.   I have said for 2 years that his home life upheaval, lack of structure and all is a huge problem for ANY kid. In many ways I just am not sure I see autism…he is very warm and sweet and responsive ….but clearly I don’t know that much about it at all.           

[KSera]

28 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

In many ways I just am not sure I see autism…he is very warm and sweet and responsive

Obviously, I have absolutely zero idea whether he might be on the spectrum or not, just wanted to say that none of the above descriptors would say anything at all about whether he was autistic or not. My kid most severely impacted by autism has always been very warm and sweet and responsive. 

[kbutton]

On 6/7/2023 at 9:33 AM, Scarlett said:

But hopefully ST will suggest further evaluations. 

I hope so! That would be ideal. If the SLP doesn't, that doesn't mean they aren't needed.

On 6/7/2023 at 10:44 AM, EKS said:

I was listening to some podcast recently, and it was talking about how children learn not to hurt others.  They were saying that It was through rough and tumble play with someone who does to them what they do to others (in other words, someone who bites back).  Because we now discourage this sort of play, kids don't learn how their actions affect others.  

My son (2e ASD) had zero clue that he was a child until we had a second child. He was around other kids all the time at church, and he even went PT to daycare for a time. Until we had another child in our home that we were trying to keep safe, he interpreted all of our parental/corrective or even age-appropriate casual behavior toward him as punitive or trying to keep the man down. It was wild. When it clicked that his brother needed actual parenting, he chilled a lot, though he still had plenty of issues (sensory, etc.). When I say that he didn't like even age-appropriate casual behavior, I mean that he was incredibly insulted when we got him a properly sized training potty when he initiated potty training. He couldn't get on our toilet (he was really young when he initiated it, and he also was going through a short leg phase), and he was DISGUSTED. He had a long track record of eschewing any kind of household products that looked like they were for kids unless we were using them as well (except if it had Elmo on it, lol! He thought Elmo was the bomb because Elmo taught him about the world.). The potty chair was just the last straw for him. 

10 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

Do first children have a harder time learning not to bite than their siblings? 

My second one never bit, so I am not sure, but it was hard on my ASD son firstborn to be firstborn. He really thought he was being deprived and discriminated against until he had a sibling. 

10 hours ago, Lecka said:

Biters are not “one size fits all.”  Not everyone is biting for the same reason or with the same motivation.

 

My son with autism was a biter and he might bite for multiple reasons, and then it mattered why.  
 

 

I think very generically too, as far as kids with autism and if their parent has autism or not, there are kind-of inverse strengths and weaknesses.  
 

In some ways, the things that are strengths for one are weaknesses for the other.  
 

I think there are things that are weaknesses, but it’s not all weaknesses.  And it’s easy to not be aware of the strengths and not notice the strengths.  

This has all been my experience also. 

My younger one didn't bite, but my older one bit to try to be dominant. Again, the theme of not understanding he was a child played out very strongly for 3.5 very long years. 

Once or twice, he bit when another child surprised him--it would scare him. Besides sensory defensiveness (usually if approached from behind), he had convergence insufficiency that we didn't know about at the time, and he would be very defensive if something came at him out of nowhere due to not having great depth perception. He could tell from one side but not the other and not straight on with objects that were within arm's length. 

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Right.   I have said for 2 years that his home life upheaval, lack of structure and all is a huge problem for ANY kid. In many ways I just am not sure I see autism…he is very warm and sweet and responsive ….but clearly I don’t know that much about it at all.           

Still entirely possible with ASD.

[Janeway]

He maybe could use a neuropsych eval. He might be sensory seeking. Also, look for an OT eval for sensory issues. Or DIY working on the sensory issues. 

[Janeway]

On the ASD, reading your post without reading the replies struck me as ASD. I would get the eval.

[Ausmumof3]

12 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Right.   I have said for 2 years that his home life upheaval, lack of structure and all is a huge problem for ANY kid. In many ways I just am not sure I see autism…he is very warm and sweet and responsive ….but clearly I don’t know that much about it at all.           

One of my ASD tutor kids is like this as well, it definitely doesn’t rule anything out. I do have a feeling ASD will eventually get broken down into subgroups because there are some very distinct ways it shows up.

[wintermom]

On 6/7/2023 at 4:45 AM, Melissa in Australia said:

I had a younger sister who was a biter. I was 10, she was 3, she bit everyone. The one day , I was holding her hand, I don't remember what for, maybe going down stairs. She went to bite me, I quickly twisted my hand and she bit her own hand. She screamed and screamed. She never bit anyone ever again. ever. to this day ( she is now 39 ) she remembers when she bit her own hand aand how much it shocked her.

This is definitely what dogs do to each other to stop the biting puppies tend to do. I was tempted to bite my dd with control when she bit me during that phase of her development at age 2. I don't remember if I actually did, but I also remember my mil making the suggestion to do a controlled bite. Mil had 6 dc and is an amazing mom, whom I trust for great parenting advice.

[Heartstrings]

I don’t think parents, especially dads, rough house with kids as much anymore.  Play wrestling, throwing kids in the air, swinging them around, I don’t think that’s the norm anymore.   

[Dianthus]

My 2.5 yr old is very bright and speaks well and clearly. She has bitten and spit on people. She has not bitten in quite a while so I think she's at the end of this behavior but still occasionally spits when she is mad. It's so strange.  How did she figure out spitting was offensive? No one else does that. We taught her to spit to brush her teeth. For all this lashing out, she's pretty empathetic. We told her that she hurt who she bit and she needed to say she was sorry and that she would not be able to go outside or have the toy or whatever because she bit. Then she would get very sad and give me a hug and say "sorry, mama."

Edited June 9, 2023 by Dianthus

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, Dianthus said:

My 2.5 yr old is very bright and speaks well and clearly. She has bitten and spit on people. She has not bitten in quite a while so I think she's at the end of this behavior but still occasionally spits when she is mad. It's so strange.  How did she figure out spitting was offensive? No one else does that. We taught her to spit to brush her teeth. For all this lashing out, she's pretty empathetic. We told her that she hurt who she bit and she needed to say she was sorry and that she would not be able to go outside or have the toy or whatever because she bit. Then she would get very sad and give me a hug and say "sorry, mama."

Some of the most empathetic kids can have the biggest emotions (and get overwhelmed by them).

People on the spectrum are often empathetic, but they display it differently or are empathetic about different things because they notice or prioritize different things.

I have been on the receiving end of oblivious behavior from both NT and non-NT people.