Anyone waiting for this docuseries? Shiny Happy People

[Faith-manor]

So I feel better today. I need to go work on flowers, however, I do feel up to at least articulating some of my thoughts.

In one of the clips, Gothard said to the throngs of people that IBLP has the answer for EVERY issue a family faces. This is the reason christians flocked to it. They wanted a recipe for Shiny, Happy People families. Follow the recipe, god will bless. It was, like nothing new under the sun, the same old same old prosperity gospel repacked in a new kind of Twinkie wrapper for mass consumption. It is exactly what drew my father figure to it. My brother had gotten his high school girlfriend pregnant, and my father took this as the ultimate insult to the family, to his success as a father, to his faith, to the church, to his reputation (bingo, bullseye, the number one concern for sure), and he wanted a recipe card, a step by step don't need to think about it, just do, of how to make sure I didn't go "off the rails", and my baby sister would become the perfect little christian. He swallowed that hook, line, and sinker. Father figure had always had an authoritarian attitude, something he kept in check for my entire childhood up to that point because my mother was.not.having.it. as she was raised with a very loving, gentle, kind, compassionate father. So having not had this as my " normal", you can imagine the trauma of going to a three day seminar with him and a bunch of fundies, and coming back with a monster. It was like a light switch flipped.

Most of my trauma was actually related to this night and day, Dr. Jeckyl, Mr. Hyde overnight transformation.

To be honest, I am shocked that episode one reduced me to tears. It has been years. Oh so very many years since I have had any experience of talking about or hearing anyone talk about Gothard and IBLP that evoked such an emotional response. Just about the time you think you are over it, I guess WHAMMO.

My sister's trauma is entirely different. She was born when I was 13, and just as our father figure embraced this @##$%%&$$#@ crap. So she never knew the side of him that my brother and I grew up with. She never knew a happy home of a gentle, loving dad who delighted in his family, worked tirelessly for us, helped out mom whenever he could, didn't exhibit misogyny and anger constantly, didn't rage, didn't scream hell fire and brimstone at little kids. She never knew a father who did not BEAT his child. Not once in my childhood had my father ever laid a hand on me or my brother in anger, for punishment. As a matter of fact, his own father had been so physically abuse, that my father had injuries from the beatings, permanent scars, damaged muscle. He was, until Gothard, determined to NEVER discipline us beyond taking away a toy or a privilege, or giving us a stern look or word. He left pretty much everything from household rules and chores to what happened if we messed up, entirely to my mom who was successfully raised by parents that did not abuse, did not hit, did not spank, didn't even yell. But once convinced by Gothard that his kids were going to hell because he, the man, the god given authority of the family had abdicated his responsibilites, he took that mantle up, and in a quest to make sure my sister was instantly, perfectly obedient like Bill Gothard and Michael Pearl said she had to be, he put a paint stick in every room, carried one in his pocket every days and from the age of 18 months to age 3, I don't think there was a single day that my sister was NOT beat on the backs of her little legs for failure to instantly obey commands. At age 3 when she began throwing up from stress everyday 5 minutes before his usual arrival home from work, and would hide in her room and begin to cry, my mom threatened to divorce him if he hit her again, and my grandparents threatened to contact the police. That ended it. He didn't want to be divorced, and he knew his folks (my grandfather had changed A LOT and greatly regretted being an abuser, tried to make amends) would help her financially, even let us live with them. So he stopped. He was still verbally atrocious, but he quit the smacking her all the damn time. However, it had taken its toll. She has has a life long panic, anxiety condition since then, and in adulthood that constant fight or flight syndrome rearing it's ugly head over seemingly innocent triggers fragged her adrenal glands and nearly killed her. And all of that. Every last bit of that came flooding back on me last night like a tidal wave of grief.

You will note that I have referred to him as father figure. This is a defense mechanism I developed in my teen years in IBLP. I could not think of him as dad, because Jeckyl dad had been a pretty great dad. Hyde dad was awful and I grew to hate him. Later in my twenties we reconciled a bit, and I didn't have to do that dichotomy in order to relate to him, to relate to my own experiences and memories. But damn it all. It is back now. I could edit and make myself sound more normal and just call him dad. However, I think for those who do not understand just how damaging the cult is, it is better if I leave it, some raw honesty about what it did to me, and how I perceived what happened to me, to my brother, to my sister. It may take me a while in my head to drop the father figure, cold reference to him. That said, it could be worse. I have had periods in my life in which I referred to him as my male, DNA donor. So ya. Worse. There is worse.

I felt Jill's pain in every word. It was my sister's pain. The pain of a child who instinctively wants unconditional love, approval, kindness, gentleness, and instead received a childhood of abuse, neglect, emotional and mental oppression, and living in fear of "sinners in the hands of an angry god", children in the hands of parents following a demented narcissistic, man-god.

Every man, even Jim Holt who makes himself out like he wasn't like JimBob and was so heart broken over Josh, angry at JimBob and Michelle, is an abuser if they are following IBLP. It is a requirement. As said on the show, it makes monsters and predators with access to a plethora of prey. What you all may not know is that his son Sam and his wife, Bobeye, have restraining orders against Jim Holt. His trial on domestic abuse, appears according to documents to be centered on something or things he did to Sam, starts soon. So that evil s.o.b. went on Amazon to pretend to be this good and decent person, so gut wrenched at what Josh did and his parents offering it up, not getting help, making the victims suck it up, and all the while, like a good Bill Gothard following man of the house, he is an abusive sh#t. That tracks. I literally do not know anyone who parents went beyond the basic seminar and got into ATI, and really followed that man-god, who didn't have an abusive father before it was over with. No one. It is in my estimation a 100% or near 100% effective program for creating sicko, rage monsters.

 

[Clemsondana]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Can someone please explain to me the difference between a cult and a regular religion? 

Is it that with a regular religion the cult-like aspect of it is further in the past?

It's hard to have strict lines, but for me there are some indicators that I consider to be more cult-like.  First, is there secrecy - are there hidden rules or special knowledge only available to the 'elite' within the group or are the beliefs or rules clearly laid out for everybody to see?  Most mainstream religions have texts or teachings that are available to anybody, and in earlier times had public teaching or letters that circulated.  Is there room for question and debate?  Can people disagree or have doubt?  The Old Testament has stories of people who 'wrestled with God' and it's portrayed as an OK thing to do.  Can people leave?  Obviously people may think you are wrong, but do they prevent you from leaving or threaten you?  Do you have control over how you participate?  

This is made more complicated by the fact that small groups can do weird things to a more mainstream belief system.  And, anything that is important to people may take a lot of their time and resources, and that can make people uncomfortable.  Like, nobody thinks twice if you spend time and $ on a kid's extracurricular or the local theater company or if a wealthy person donates huge sums to build a museum, but if somebody does the same thing with a religious group then people may wonder if it's a cult.  But, on the other hand, people clearly do end up in cults and unhealthy religious groups that take over their lives in negative ways.  Other people happily spend many hours working with their religious group to study in a way that benefits their life or volunteer in ways that serve others.  But, I tend to think that in a healthy group people are free to choose when, where, and how to participate.  

[Faith-manor]

37 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I finished a master’s degree two years ago from Liberty U and was honestly shocked—there was next to no religion in my classes(the occasional Bible verse that they wanted you to throw into the discussion, but recognizing that not everyone taking the classes was Christian you could substitute whatever religious text you used) and that many of my classmates had no religion or non-western religions. PCC and Hyles Anderson were always the favorite of the IFB church school grads I knew(few of them homeschooled back then) and the IBLP kids in general didn’t go to college.

To be fair though, most of the families we knew had left IBLP by the time their kids were graduating high school.  The only family I knew well who did Wisdom Booklets/ATI must have done other schoolwork on the down low, because 3/6 kids have gone on for graduate STEM degrees without an issue, including the oldest daughter.

I do not think Liberty U is a bastion of conservative Baptist theology. That is just the perception of so many Baptists at least in my area. I found that the average person who sends their 18 year old to Liberty is NOT particularly well informed about the place. In our rural area/county, there are five Baptist churches. One IFB, the rest mostly just Southern Baptist type though denominationally independent. When these folks put their kids' graduation announcements in the newspaper, a nearly all encompassing local tradition, the IFB church if the kids are announcing college attendance, are nearly exclusively sending them to Bob Jones or Pensacola. Everyone else? Liberty, Liberty, Liberty, Liberty....absolutely amazing. Never a state school or other parochial college in the bunch. I am always bewildered. If they educated themselves about it, and found out it isn't what they think it is, they would probably save themselves a lot of money and send them to Bob Jones or Pensacola. It always makes me scratch my head. So much debt for NOT what they think they are getting. I am sure some of this is regional though. I would guess that people living closer to the institution would view it differently than they do here. Hyles Anderson and even Moody, though close proximity, are virtual unknowns here.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Can someone please explain to me the difference between a cult and a regular religion? 

Is it that with a regular religion the cult-like aspect of it is further in the past?

This is something I ponder occasionally, too. About thirty years or so ago I heard a Baptist pastor claim that Buddhism and Hinduism were cults, and at the same time of course saying that his own individual church/the Southern Baptist church in general were not cults. He gave his reasons, none of which I recall now, but I remember at the time they struck me as ringing very hollow for anyone who had decent critical thinking skills. And it wasn't that I thought his church/the Baptist church in general were cults, but that it seemed to me they probably fit the definition better than either Buddhism or Hinduism did.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Pawz4me

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Can someone please explain to me the difference between a cult and a regular religion? 

Is it that with a regular religion the cult-like aspect of it is further in the past?

For me, outside of the charismatic leader, I look at high demand/high control characteristics. I like Steve Hassan’s work, and as an exmormon, I have found Luna Lindsey Corbden’s stuff helpful also. I am attaching a link to some 30+ characteristics of high demand/high control groups. It’s from a podcast where it was looked at through the lens of Mormonism, but the slides could be utilized for any group: https://www.mormonstories.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Was-I-Raised-in-a-Cult-A-Self-Assessment.pdf

[Sneezyone]

I binged watched last night. It just made me sad, mostly b/c of the extent to which the larger movement has been successful in shaping public policy and discourse, and I only got a teeny glimpse of the impact when we lived in NWA in the 90s. The persistent and pervasive view of women and girls as tempting vessels who shall receive (willing or not) the attentions of men and boys and bring forth children (willing or not) undergirds soooooo much in modern political life. Weaponizing ignorance, beatings/violence as a form of righteousness, force-feeding propaganda…I don’t have any answers just sorrow for how much people are being forced to endure as a result.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Sneezyone

[prairiewindmomma]

11 hours ago, itsheresomewhere said:

That or Jessa.  Both give me the same vibes.

Jessa could totally do it, I agree. It’s the line, “Never was there another girl like Jill” that makes me think it was JB. That doesn’t sound like Jessa but I have heard JB use similar turns of phrase.

[NorthernBeth]

3 hours ago, EKS said:

Can someone please explain to me the difference between a cult and a regular religion? 

Is it that with a regular religion the cult-like aspect of it is further in the past?

This is simply from my perspective.   From what I understand, a cult is very much all about following the leader "blindly".   The leader can change directions, have contradictory directions, and no one is allowed to question or discuss them. There is harsh punishment for disagreeing.  They have complete control over all aspects of your life.  Once in, you can't leave, as they will slowly cut off your access to the outside world and often take complete control over your finances if they can.  There is a lot of secrecy and shame. Everything is based on making the leader feel better about themselves.  No one else really matters.

In a regular religion, the rules are "posted".   If I want to find out what is being taught by major religions around the world, I can easily pick up their holy books and read for myself.  I can read the commentaries on their books as well.   Most major religions often have differerent denominations or groupings, precisely because there is a willingness to allow discussion, disagreement, and independent opinions.  If I leave my church, no one is threatening me.  My pastor does not have control over my life.  Unless I choose to share it with him, he probably doesn't know any details about my life really.  He has no control over my finances.   He might possibly give advice to me on a life situation if I asked for it, but otherwise would probably not.  It is totally expected that church members have autonomy over their own lives.  My pastor would certainly expect me to make my own life decisions and would be cautious about giving advice as he would be fully aware that he might not see the whole picture. 

One specific example of this difference comes to mind that happened at our local church.  The pastor and quite a few members felt very strongly about changing a particular point of doctrine that they felt was flawed.  Other members of the church felt very strongly against it.  When the doctrine was introduced, it was not done according to the proper business/ meeting procedures, and this was pointed out with a great deal of anger.  Pastor apologized and withdrew that particular point of doctrine until such time as eveyone felt calmer and it could be reintroduced in the correct manner.  It took about a year before that change was re- introduced . There was a long period of discussion among the members on that point for several months, as far as I understand.  They finally voted on it and it was accepted as a change in doctrine.  However,  if the church as a whole had voted against it, the pastor would not have been able to preach on that topic as it went against the posted doctrine that everyone had agreed to.   This is completely different than in a cult where the members would have zero say on what was being "preached" and there would be no requirement that a leader follow any rules he didn't wish to.  Certainly they would never get to vote or even discuss a topic meaningfully , let alone disagree with a leader without being kicked out.  

[MercyA]

I just watched the first episode. I don't get the Amy hate. Anyone care to expound? She just seems genuine and honest to me. 🤷‍♀️

[prairiewindmomma]

10 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I just watched the first episode. I don't get the Amy hate. Anyone care to expound? She just seems genuine and honest to me. 🤷‍♀️

She has that wrapper of seeming genuine and honest but inside she’s of the same bigoted and narcissistic ilk as her uncle.

[catz]

I finished the first episode too. Also don't get the Amy hate at all.  But I have zero history with the Duggars.  I have never watched any reality TV that exploits minors.  I used to call that out during the early Duggar days here when they were glorified and people thought I was ridiculous.  There should be laws against it.  And I wouldn't be watching this if any Duggars were cashing in on it or if any minors were on it.  

Amy seems more confident than the meek Duggar girls.  She definitely contrasts to them  I mean she is willing to speak out on this and not be paid for it.    Her and her mom called out "it's reality TV - but it isn't".  That is all reality TV.  Edited to create interest and money.

Jill seems meek.  I do feel awful for her, she is certainly a victim.  Her comment about brain washing at public schools made me roll my eyes after what she went through.  As someone who was raised kind of Catholic, has only attended a UU church (not Christian) sporadically as an adult, and has only homeschooled in secular circles, it is interesting and alarming.  

ETA - I also wonder why these girls haven't spoken out against their parents for exploiting their childhood or sued Discovery or something.  

Edited June 2, 2023 by catz

[MercyA]

30 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

She has that wrapper of seeming genuine and honest but inside she’s of the same bigoted and narcissistic ilk as her uncle.

I don't know about narcissism. I don't see it, but I only know the little I've read online and what I've seen on the original show and this current one.

I did some searching to see what I could find about bigotry. I do think Amy is trying to do educate herself and do better. She once tweeted, "Instead of just black lives matter. Which is very true!! Every life is important. If you have a beating heart you matter. You serve a purpose. And no one is greater because of the color of their skin." She apologized a week later, saying, "I want to extend my sincere apologies for tweeting about all lives matter. I'll be honest I was confused, ignorant and I have a lot of learning to do. I want to stand up and use my platform for good not to upset people. I will grow from this. Luke 15:4".

[kbutton]

10 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

To be fair though, most of the families we knew had left IBLP by the time their kids were graduating high school.  The only family I knew well who did Wisdom Booklets/ATI must have done other schoolwork on the down low, because 3/6 kids have gone on for graduate STEM degrees without an issue, including the oldest daughter.

I think a lot of people were influenced indirectly by Gothard but didn't follow things really closely. They might go to the basic introductory thing and take a few kernels away, but they didn't necessarily swallow all of the lifestyle stuff. I am stunned watching the series how many things I've heard before that I wouldn't know were Gothard and came from people that didn't really go to Gothard stuff. I never heard of Gothard until high school (and barely then), but I had heard some of this stuff long beforehand, such as the umbrella of protection idea. 

Lots of teachers and pastors share things they've heard elsewhere without knowing the origin. It just fits with their view, and they pass it along.

9 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I am sure some of this is regional though.

Most likely. I am from an area much closer to Mrs. T than to where you are from, and what she says fits what I've seen more. But again, I've seen very *few* pure Gothard followers in spite of a lot of general fundamentalism. The fundamentalism where I am from is wary of top down controls but also tolerant of people finding and implementing things that work for them--if Gothard stuff is part of that, they wouldn't think anything of someone incorporating portions of his ideas. Going whole hog might raise some eyebrows, but I am not sure where the threshold would be. Our church had conservative theology but was the church everyone went to after they'd been burned out on the infighting in the truly fundie churches, lol! Quiverful folks were considered fringe even though big families were not considered odd in general. People often liked assurance of conservatism for group things (such as being fine abstaining from going to the movies publicly if they sent their kids to a Christian school), but then they were more liberal in practice (such as watching a variety of movies at home and even showing PG-13 movies at their teen's birthday party). It was a weird dynamic in some ways. I never did quite get the rules, lol! I didn't really know parents who were anywhere near as authoritarian as the Gothard followers in the documentary even among the strict parents I knew.

9 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

This is something I ponder occasionally, too. About thirty years or so ago I heard a Baptist pastor claim that Buddhism and Hinduism were cults, and at the same time of course saying that his own individual church/the Southern Baptist church in general were not cults. He gave his reasons, none of which I recall now, but I remember at the time they struck me as ringing very hollow for anyone who had decent critical thinking skills. And it wasn't that I thought his church/the Baptist church in general were cults, but that it seemed to me they probably fit the definition better than either Buddhism or Hinduism did.

It's not uncommon in some circles to have a Big C Cult definition (what you'd expect) and a little c cult definition which is basically just any religion that fails any one of several criteria; generally a denial of the deity of Christ is the number one thing that puts a religion in the little c cult category, but there are others that I can't remember either. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by kbutton

[AbcdeDooDah]

3 hours ago, MercyA said:

I just watched the first episode. I don't get the Amy hate. Anyone care to expound? She just seems genuine and honest to me. 🤷‍♀️

It can seem like she wants attention but I think about how she was also a victim of JB and Michelle growing up. She always knew they disapproved of her and probably only “put up” with her because they are family. I think she just wants to be heard. Their reach extended to the whole family.

[Faith-manor]

The Amy hate comes from things she had done that you don't probably know about. She runs off at the mouth on her social media and it is disgusting. Some of her posts she actually demonstrated disappointment that Josh had NOT molested her because Jill and Jessa got so much attention for it, and she said she asked Josh why he didn't choose to molest her? She flirted with him in very disgusting ways while the cameras rolled on his wedding day. She claims to have been with them and had no privacy because of the show, but she and Deanna were only contracted for just a few minutes each week. She divulged, online, very private things about Jill, things she should never have shared. She claims that JB and Michelle were exploiting their kids for money, and she does the EXACT same thing with her son Daxton which she uses to sell and peddle products online as an "influencer". She is not remotely careful with his privacy or his safety. She had been caught in very unethical business practices. There is a reason that a lot of people would like Amy to be quiet, and why she has been nicknamed Famy. But you would have to know about her through the businesses she has run, through her social media, and how she had behaved in her community to know why she is not liked.

As for the threat to Derick, I believe it was spearheaded by JB and was Josh who did it. Josh was the one who already knew about burner phones and the inability to trace them. If police had come to JB, he could easily throw his son under the bus. " Are you going to believe me, a former elected representative of Arkansas and a family friend of Mike Huckabee? Or my son who is already a known and confirmed child molester?" 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Pawz4me]

I just watched the first two episodes. The extent of my knowledge of the Duggars comes from skimming threads here over the years and news reports of Josh's issues and trials. I think the documentary is very well done. I was afraid I'd be lost on who's who and how they relate, but I wasn't. I have no history of abuse but the second episode was hard to watch.

[DawnM]

6 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I finished a master’s degree two years ago from Liberty U and was honestly shocked—there was next to no religion in my classes(the occasional Bible verse that they wanted you to throw into the discussion, but recognizing that not everyone taking the classes was Christian you could substitute whatever religious text you used) and that many of my classmates had no religion or non-western religions. PCC and Hyles Anderson were always the favorite of the IFB church school grads I knew(few of them homeschooled back then) and the IBLP kids in general didn’t go to college.

To be fair though, most of the families we knew had left IBLP by the time their kids were graduating high school.  The only family I knew well who did Wisdom Booklets/ATI must have done other schoolwork on the down low, because 3/6 kids have gone on for graduate STEM degrees without an issue, including the oldest daughter.

Liberty is Southern Baptist through and through and not on the same level by any stretch as BJU or Pensacola.   I have a son at Liberty University now.   He chose it, he knows that we feel they are too political, but he wanted to go there and my dad told him he would pay for it.   Of course, dad passed away in December and my son has 2 more years, so guess who is now paying?   Well, with my dad's inheritance, so I suppose he is still paying for it.

Anyway, it wouldn't be my first choice, but they do offer a lot of online options and my son went as an older students so he is living off campus in a house with 3 other guys, he has his own room and bathroom and is not required to attend convocation (chapel).

[MercyA]

I am watching the second episode and had to stop to study this frame as it went across the screen.

The ATI "Wisdom Booklets" taught that *these* clothes could incite lust? Really? It's so harmful to teach little girls that their (perfectly modest!) clothing might have hidden "eye traps" that would cause other human beings to sin. 😞 

I really think Gothard must have severe OCD and/or other severe mental problems (and as someone who has OCD, I don't say that lightly). He should never have been in such a position of authority.

Edited June 3, 2023 by MercyA

[fairfarmhand]

19 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I am watching the second episode and had to stop to study this frame as it went across the screen.

The ATI "Wisdom Booklets" taught that *these* clothes could incite lust? Really? It's so harmful to teach little girls that their (perfectly modest!) clothing might have hidden "eye traps" that would cause other human beings to sin. 😞 

I really think Gothard must have had severe OCD and/or other severe mental problems (and as someone who has OCD, I don't say that lightly). He should never have been in such a position of authority.

Okay, I grew up very conservative, modesty taught and all that. And I have no idea what the person who wrote this and drew the sketches was getting at. Zero. If someone can make a girl who was wearing THOSE THINGS feel bad, I just don't know what to say.

[Faith-manor]

14 hours ago, MercyA said:

I am watching the second episode and had to stop to study this frame as it went across the screen.

The ATI "Wisdom Booklets" taught that *these* clothes could incite lust? Really? I can't imagine having to worry about whether my perfectly modest clothing had hidden "eye traps" that would cause other human beings to sin. 😞 

I really think Gothard must have had severe OCD and/or other severe mental problems (and as someone who has OCD, I don't say that lightly). He should never have been in such a position of authority.

I can tell you what was wrong with them since I was forced to listen to this crap, read it, regurgitate it. You probably habe figured it out. But I will clarify the exact IBLP regulations on it for those that might be wondering.

1. Lace with no lining showing off skin below the collarbone. At A.C.E. as well as Gothard events, girls and women were siphoned off to a staged area where they were judged on their clothing. A.C.E. allowed grown ass men to ogle the teenage girls, and leer at them, and then pronounce what was wrong. Same at the Advanced Training Seminar until they got so big they couldn't manage it. Then they had to stop that crazy because with whole stadiums of women and girls, it couldn't be done. A.C.E. conventions modeled heavily on Gothard kept it up since these were so much smaller. 

Women, sucked into this horror show and eager to prove how perfect they were, were allowed to touch you with their hands to determine if your neckline was more than 2 finger widths below your collarbone. Then they got on the floor and looked up your skirt to see if you were wearing any "sexy " undegarments and to see if there was any chance your slip might fall down below your hem line and be seen. You had to spin 3 times, slowly in front of the panel of demented weasels in order to be determined modest enough or not, and that included colors. Then you had to kneel on the floor to show that your hem not only touched but fell into crumples of excess fabric so it was long enough without them having to get a yardstick. No matter how modest by their standards, you were immodest if you had on a striking color like fuchsia or a dramatic fabric like satin or lace or orange or some dumb other mental distress they managed to manufacture. So parents spent gobs of money on the dowdiest, frumpiest, worst dower things they could find, and replacing underwear, bras, whatever they thought MIGHT upset the powers that be. Boys were only checked to see that they were wearing dress pants, not jeans, and had their ties on straight, and they got to watch us girls being turned inside out which meant we got bullied and sexually harassed about it later.

2. Bold print, long necklace. Men will be bucks in rut if you draw attention to your chest with a long necklace or a bold print. They can't help themselves, even if you look like Little House on the Prairie Revisited.

3. Pilgrim panel is long enough to flop against the boobs. This will make men think of boobs. Men are so beyond fragile mentally, it staggers the imagination with this group. And yet in charge! 🙄😠

4. A slit will cause a man to run out and visit a prostitute. Yes. This is in the seminars too. Technically, the skirt would not have been long enough to ensure the knee would never show.

5. Big bow flops on the girlfriends making men think about the boobs. Skirt not long enough.

6. Patterned hose. Draws attention to legs. Men will run out and have an affair if they see patterned hose, or so we were told. LOL, when I got married, I wore beautiful embroidered hose, and made sure my parents' Gothard loving A.C.E. peddaling demented pastor could see my leg while adjusting the garter I was wearing. I didn't want one of those things nor did I want to throw a bouquet. The traditions that these rituals are taken from are quite disturbing, but my parents were so @#$%&%$ awful.about our wedding and the planning of it, that we just let them have their way on some things since hos parents really wanted us to have a big church wedding instead of tiny, no drills ceremony in the chapel at the college from which we had graduated.

It gets worse. There are cartoons of little girls representing what looks like a typical 7 and 8 year old in which the little girl's totally appropriate dress is just above the knee, and students are encouraged to squeal to their parents about being defrauded so their parents can go reem out the child's mother for letting her child outgrow the dress and cause men to sin. At no time does it appear that anyone stopped to think, "If a dude can't see a child's knee without wanting to commit a crime, then maybe we should lock that dude up!" But then, they truly do not believe that any abuse perpetuated against a child or a female in particular, is a crime. They do not believe in any punishment for it.

Mark said we needed to watch the whole series this afternoon because he felt it would bother me all weekend let hanging and would be hard to put out of mind for the wedding. He had a Shrek kind of thinking. 'Better out than in!" I reluctantly did it, and surprisingly, did well compared to that first episode yesterday. He knows me so well. More thoughts later. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Faith-manor

[fairfarmhand]

5 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I can tell you what was wrong with them since I was forced to listen to this crap, read it, regurgitate it. You probably habe figured it out. But I will clarify the exact IBLP regulations on it for those that might be wondering.

1. Lace with no lining showing off skin below the collarbone. At A.C.E. as well as Gothard events, girls and women were siphoned off to a staged area where they were judged on their clothing. A.C.E. allowed grown ass men to ogle the teenage girls, and leer at them, and then pronounce what was wrong. Same at the Advanced Training Seminar until they got so big they couldn't manage it. Then they had to stop that crazy because with whole stadiums of women and girls, it couldn't be done. A.C.E. conventions modeled heavily on Gothard kept it up since these were so much smaller. 

Women, sucked into this horror show and eager to prove how perfect they were, were allowed to touch you with their hands to determine if your neckline was more than 2 finger widths below your collarbone. Then they got on the floor and looked up your skirt to see if you were wearing any "sexy " undegarments and to see if there was any chance your slip might fall down below your hem line and be seen. You had to spin 3 times, slowly in front of the panel of demented weasels in order to be determined modest enough or not, and that included colors. Then you had to kneel on the floor to show that your hem not only touched but fell into crumples of excess fabric so it was long enough without them having to get a yardstick. No matter how modest by their standards, you were immodest if you had on a striking color like fuchsia or a dramatic fabric like satin or lace or orange or some dumb other mental distress they managed to manufacture. So parents spent gobs of money on the dowdiest, frumpiest, worst dower things they could find, and replacing underwear, bras, whatever they thought MIGHT upset the powers that be. Boys were only checked to see that they were wearing dress pants, not jeans, and had their ties on straight, and they got to watch us girls being turned inside out which meant we got bullied and sexually harassed about it later.

2. Bold print, long necklace. Men will be bucks in rut if you draw attention to your chest with a long necklace or a bold print. They can't help themselves, even if you look like Little House on the Prairie Revisited.

3. Pilgrim panel is long enough to flop against the boobs. This will make men think of boobs. Men are so beyond fragile mentally, it staggers the imagination with this group. And yet in charge! 🙄😠

4. A slit will cause a man to run out and visit a prostitute. Yes. This is in the seminars too. Technically, the skirt would not have been long enough to ensure the knee would never show.

5. Big bow flops on the girlfriends making men think about the boobs. Skirt not long enough.

6. Patterned hose. Draws attention to legs. Men will run out and have an affair if they see patterned hose, or so we were told. LOL, when I got married, I wore beautiful embroidered hose, and made sure my parents' Gothard loving A.C.E. peddaling demented pastor could see my leg while adjusting the garter I was wearing. I didn't want one of those things nor did I want to throw a bouquet. The traditions that these rituals are taken from are quite disturbing, but my parents were so @#$%&%$ awful.about our wedding and the planning of it, that we just let them have their way on some things since hos parents really wanted us to have a big church wedding instead of tiny, no drills ceremony in the chapel at the college from which we had graduated.

It gets worse. There are cartoons of little girls representing what looks like a typical 7 and 8 year old in which the little girl's totally appropriate dress is just above the knee, and students are encouraged to squeal to their parents about being defrauded so their parents can go reem out the child's mother for letting her child outgrow the dress and cause men to sin. At no time does it appear that anyone stopped to think, "If a dude sees a child's knee without wanting to commit a crime, then maybe we should lock that dude up!" But then, they truly do not believe that any abuse perpetuated against a child or a female in particular, is a crime. They do not believe in any punishment for it.

Mark said we needed to watch the whole series this afternoon because he felt it would bother me all weekend let hanging and would be hard to put out of mind for the wedding. He had a Shrek kind of thinking. 'Better out than in!" I reluctantly did it, and surprisingly, did well compared to that first episode yesterday. He knows me so well. More thoughts later. 

😳😳😳

I wish you were joking but I know you’re not.

[cave canem]

20 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

panel of demented weasels

LOL!

[Tiberia]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

I am watching the second episode and had to stop to study this frame as it went across the screen.

The ATI "Wisdom Booklets" taught that *these* clothes could incite lust? Really? It's so harmful to teach little girls that their (perfectly modest!) clothing might have hidden "eye traps" that would cause other human beings to sin. 😞 

I really think Gothard must have had severe OCD and/or other severe mental problems (and as someone who has OCD, I don't say that lightly). He should never have been in such a position of authority.

Wow! I didn’t know about lust traps. Funny that Jesus recommended gouging your eyes out if they cause you to lust. Jesus put the blame on the person who was lusting, not on the object of lust.

[Pawz4me]

The new Duggar doc is the cold, hard 'reality TV' we needed all along (WaPo, gifted link)

[Stacia]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

I am watching the second episode and had to stop to study this frame as it went across the screen.

The ATI "Wisdom Booklets" taught that *these* clothes could incite lust? Really? It's so harmful to teach little girls that their (perfectly modest!) clothing might have hidden "eye traps" that would cause other human beings to sin. 😞 

I really think Gothard must have had severe OCD and/or other severe mental problems (and as someone who has OCD, I don't say that lightly). He should never have been in such a position of authority.

I haven't watched the series & was just skimming this thread. This makes me think of the exhibit, "What Were You Wearing?"

https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/

[Ginevra]

Second episode…hard one to watch. I felt it so fully when several people said this is training women to be victims of (every kind of) abuse. I saw this in my own family. I felt it so much when Jill talked about how there was no such thing as finding out how *you* felt about something or what *you* thought about something. I was raised this way too; it took me a very long time to even realize I was a person with just as much right to exist/enjoy life as anyone else. Much less actually make a statement about what I would and would not accept. 
 

Also, I remember reading about blanket training when my kids were small. The person talking about it trained the baby not to touch *books*! “Bad little toddler, crawling over to books and tearing the pages!” WHiskey Tango Foxtrot?! Seems like an excellent way to stamp out all traces of intellectual curiosity. 

[Sneezyone]

As the Wapost article points out, the lack of information and agency afforded women and girls, much like the broader censorship movement in schools, creates conditions ripe for abuse/exploitation. Not having the language or opportunity to speak is just…ugh.

[kbutton]

18 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I haven't watched the series & was just skimming this thread. This makes me think of the exhibit, "What Were You Wearing?"

https://dovecenter.org/what-were-you-wearing-exhibit/

I don't know if they were the ones to do this or not, but there was an exhibit like this one time that was from the Anabaptist community (Amish, etc.). You can't get much more modest by nearly any definition. It included baby clothes, IIRC. 

Oh, here it is: https://www.voanews.com/a/what-they-wore-amish-country-exhibit-spotlights-sex-abuse-/6562485.html

Edited June 2, 2023 by kbutton

[Faith-manor]

37 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I don't know if they were the ones to do this or not, but there was an exhibit like this one time that was from the Anabaptist community (Amish, etc.). You can't get much more modest by nearly any definition. It included baby clothes, IIRC. 

Oh, here it is: https://www.voanews.com/a/what-they-wore-amish-country-exhibit-spotlights-sex-abuse-/6562485.html

Sickening. I don't know what else to say.

[AbcdeDooDah]

I just finished episode 2. I really could have done without seeing Pest and Anna’s hand sex again. 🤢

[MeaganS]

Are non-white people actively discouraged to join, or is just that their audience appeals more to a white fundamentalist demographic?

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, MeaganS said:

Are non-white people actively discouraged to join, or is just that their audience appeals more to a white fundamentalist demographic?

They don't like to be branded as racist, because bad PR. But to be honest, what I saw was a lot of active discouragement of minorities from participating. There was a definite undercurrent of bigotry. There was serious bigotry in the Wisdom Booklets back in the 80's and 90's. I haven seen more recent ones so I do not know if has changed. A.C.E. paces were profoundly racist. In the cartoons, the Christian kids ACE (named for the organization) and the rest of the kids attended an all white Christian school. There was a separate Christian school for the VERY FEW token minority students, and in the cartoons, white children did not mix with the children from the minority school very often at all. Every student of the white school had a Biblical name or Biblical character trait name. Minority children had traditional, white names. And then there was the public school students, two kids who in the paces were ALWAYS in trouble. They were the bad kids, and instead of questions about the subject material, math, English, whatever, the students were asked questions like, 'Why are the children of the public school bad people?" Answers from the reading included a lot of things from outside the will of god, demon possession, godless society, movies, t.v., rock music, hearts of rebellion, satanic worshippers, you name it. It was designed to brainwash kids into believing that white fundamentalists are god's chosen people, and minority Christians are the "lesser thans" bringing up the rear with everyone else, everyone who didn't believe the same, didn't follow the legalism, had a one way ticket to hell.

PACES went hand in hand with IBLP. It was the approved curriculum prior to the development of Wisdom Booklets, and because Wisdom Booklets didn't always keep kids busy enough, PACES were the add on "curriculum". Some of the egregiously awful stuff included the teaching on the Trail of Tears. That though it was sad (and really, they never once called it out as truly heinous and morally reprehensible), god used it for good and hundreds of thousands of Indians (yes, this is the term used so apparently they were not aware of the existence of the country of India 🙄), became saved due to the witness of good Christians along the way. This is the kind of horrific drivel and brain washing in A.C.E. it is deep, very deep. Leaving Fundamentalism has done a rather large deep dive into it since though A.C.E. is IBLP adjacent, they were two separate organizations.

That said. Even PACES were not as far down the rabbit hole as Wisdom Booklets. Good grief. Paces did actually teach the humans were made of living cells. Wisdom Booklets teach that hands are made of non living atoms, and the body has three hearts. The crazy is so bad, it makes me sound like a delusional dingbat to even describe it.

All that to say, the organization while not skinhead or anything like that really was aimed at preserving White Protestantism, fundamental, puritanical white protestant culture and return America to some sort of 1800's perceived glory land.

Edited June 3, 2023 by Faith-manor

[Ting Tang]

Wait… Bill Gothard never married? Or had children? I guess many religious figures haven’t who advise. 😕  I’m on episode 3. I do worry it may perpetuate homeschool stereotypes. Now I know why Anna stayed married — it goes way deeper than the reasons I originally concocted in my mind. 

[busymama7]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

Wait… Bill Gothard never married? Or had children? I guess many religious figures haven’t who advise. 😕  I’m on episode 3. I do worry it may perpetuate homeschool stereotypes. Now I know why Anna stayed married — it goes way deeper than the reasons I originally concocted in my mind. 

Can you please describe? I share a prime account and don't really want to watch it and have it show up as recently viewed. Thanks. 

[Kidlit]

9 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

 

PACES went hand in hand with IBLP. It was the approved curriculum prior to the development of Wisdom Booklets, and because Wisdom Booklets didn't always keep kids busy enough, PACES were the add on "curriculum". Some of the egregiously awful stuff included the teaching on the Trail of Tears. That though it was sad (and really, they never once called it out as truly heinous and morally reprehensible), god used it for good and hundreds of thousands of Indians (yes, this is the term used so apparently they were not aware of the existence of the country of India 🙄), became saved due to the witness of good Christians along the way. This is the kind of horrific drivel and brain washing in A.C.E. it is deep, very deep. Leaving Fundamentalism has done a rather large deep dive into it since though A.C.E. is IBLP adjacent, they were two separate organizations.

That said. Even PACES were not as far down the rabbit hole as Wisdom Booklets. Good grief. Paces did actually teach the humans were made of living cells. Wisdom Booklets teach that hands are made of non living atoms, and the body has three hearts. The crazy is so bad, it makes me sound like a delusional dingbat to even describe it.

All that to say, the organization while not skinhead or anything like that really was aimed at preserving White Protestantism, fundamental, puritanical white protestant culture and return America to some sort of 1800's perceived glory land.

What? I had no idea! I attended a tiny private school for a few years in elementary school that used Paces.  Mind blown.

[Ting Tang]

5 hours ago, busymama7 said:

Can you please describe? I share a prime account and don't really want to watch it and have it show up as recently viewed. Thanks. 

He’s the leader of this ministry. Now, I haven’t gotten to any gnitty  gritty details about Anna and Joshua other than a brief stint about their courtship. But I do.believe she so stayed with him out of obedience and brainwashing. It seems abuse is allowed and she just had to take it, sweep his behavior under the rug. He cheated on her and paid the other lady off not to tell. 

Edited June 3, 2023 by Ting Tang

[Faith-manor]

4 hours ago, Kidlit said:

What? I had no idea! I attended a tiny private school for a few years in elementary school that used Paces.  Mind blown.

The higher up the pace number, the worse it gets. High school American History might be the most effed up stuff ever that isn't in a Wisdom Booklet which is saying a lot considering the pro-slavery sentiment of Bob Jones and Veritas by Doug Wilson.

This stuff in the paces is always in cartoon form so it looks innocent. Most parents do not take the time to read the cartoons or the content. They just look at the scores on self-tests and tests. There is an A.C.E. school around the corner from us. The parents have NO idea what that crap contains. 10th grade English, "Why did Susie and Roy (or whatever his name was) die in the car crash?" Because they were losers. Not joking. That is the correct answer in the answer key. If you wonder why they were losers, it was because they went to public school so naturally were always troublemakers in the cartoons. Brainwashing 101.

[Kidlit]

46 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The higher up the pace number, the worse it gets. High school American History might be the most effed up stuff ever that isn't in a Wisdom Booklet which is saying a lot considering the pro-slavery sentiment of Bob Jones and Veritas by Doug Wilson.

This stuff in the paces is always in cartoon form so it looks innocent. Most parents do not take the time to read the cartoons or the content. They just look at the scores on self-tests and tests. There is an A.C.E. school around the corner from us. The parents have NO idea what that crap contains. 10th grade English, "Why did Susie and Roy (or whatever his name was) die in the car crash?" Because they were losers. Not joking. That is the correct answer in the answer key. If you wonder why they were losers, it was because they went to public school so naturally were always troublemakers in the cartoons. Brainwashing 101.

I was in a school for 4th and part of 5th. I remember nothing about what I learned--I just remember the structure of the school and how our over all day went. It wasn't a bad experience for me.  I had come from public school in my home state, attended the private school while my dad was on a temporary transfer to the other state, and returned to my original public school system mid-year.  I was none the worse for wear. 

[Ginevra]

I just watched Episode 3. Here’s what I don’t understand: what was the end game for BG? There were riches, certainly, but it was also said in the video that he kept a low profile in that department. Didn’t live in an opulent manner. He obviously liked being around pretty, young virgins - and I’m not minimizing his abuse of them - however, it seems like he didn’t get much out of that except fantasy/stiffies. So if that was a component, it was maybe a side benefit. There is this idea of “raising up an army for God”, but even with that: what does he hope will come from that? If he’s a narcissist - and that does seem likely - he “should” be reaping some tangible benefits. 
 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

44 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I just watched Episode 3. Here’s what I don’t understand: what was the end game for BG? There were riches, certainly, but it was also said in the video that he kept a low profile in that department. Didn’t live in an opulent manner. He obviously liked being around pretty, young virgins - and I’m not minimizing his abuse of them - however, it seems like he didn’t get much out of that except fantasy/stiffies. So if that was a component, it was maybe a side benefit. There is this idea of “raising up an army for God”, but even with that: what does he hope will come from that? If he’s a narcissist - and that does seem likely - he “should” be reaping some tangible benefits. 
 

I think the end game was simply power and fame.  He is a man who loves control.

[Rosie_0801]

46 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

 what does he hope will come from that? If he’s a narcissist - and that does seem likely - he “should” be reaping some tangible benefits. 

Feelings of righteousness are a powerful motivator.

Some narcs just like destroying. It's a tall poppy thing.

[Ginevra]

I wonder how this series/books by Jinger and Jill/etc. Affects the younger kids. I mean it’s got to be pretty horrible for Jennifer/Jordan/Josie… what must be going down in the household now with this negative press? I’ve lost track of who is left at home still but it’s got to be misery for these youngest ones who grew up on the show from birth. It must be confusing and painful. 

[Indigo Blue]

6 minutes ago, Ginevra said:

I wonder how this series/books by Jinger and Jill/etc. Affects the younger kids. I mean it’s got to be pretty horrible for Jennifer/Jordan/Josie… what must be going down in the household now with this negative press? I’ve lost track of who is left at home still but it’s got to be misery for these youngest ones who grew up on the show from birth. It must be confusing and painful. 

This was exactly my thought.

[catz]

I’m grateful at least those younger kids don’t have to live out their (staged and edited) childhoods in the public eye.   I would hope they aren’t seeing coverage.   

[Ginevra]

2 minutes ago, catz said:

I’m grateful at least those younger kids don’t have to live out their (staged and edited) childhoods in the public eye.   I would hope they aren’t seeing coverage.   

True but isn’t this a fine bit of head-f*ckery? You grew up on TV, lauded (by some) as a paragon of Christian conservative values…defending things like wearing dresses or courtship or whatever (it’s interesting looking back at all the times Jill or Jessa or Jinger were filmed defending these features of their lives).

I just wonder how it plays out. Jill raised half of those littles and Jinger raised half of them. It must be confusing. Do those girls think maybe the dresses-only thing is pointless? Do any of them think they may not want to get married and have kids? 

[DawnM]

I just looked something up about the Duggars and there was a picture of the entire family, including the spouses of the 3 or 4 who were married at the time the photo was taken (JB's mother was in the photo so it was a bit ago) and I realized that the photo may be the very last of them all together as some of them have moved on and aren't part of the cult anymore.

Sad but also healthy.

[Kidlit]

I'm watching.  I'm up through episode 3. I am smack dab in the middle Bible Belt and I can see the influences of IBLP-like teaching, even if I had never even heard of it before the Duggars.  
 

did anybody else think the part of Josie quoting the obedience saying in the bathroom was REALLY weird?

[Terabith]

Whatever happened to Jana?  

[Ginevra]

7 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Whatever happened to Jana?  

She’s still on the compound, AFAIK

[popmom]

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Whatever happened to Jana?  

She was with Jinger recently building shelving in Jinger's closet. I am following her in Instagram. I follow her and Jill. Jana was notably wearing shorts--long shorts, but shorts.