What to do when you are fully convinced/disagree with family member?

[sheryl]

deleted

Edited May 13, 2023 by sheryl

[maize]

If you are asking for advice on whether to confront B about these issues--no, I wouldn't do that.  Unless you have a very open relationship with B with mutual trust (this doesn't sound like such a relationship) confronting them is likely to do no good at all.

If there is someone being hurt by B's behavior that you think you could support by having an honest discussion about boundaries with, that might be worth trying. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by maize

[Katy]

It’s only appropriate to confront them about their behavior towards YOU. You’re not this person’s parent and you can control your own emotions and decide not to let them make you anxious. And evaluate why they bother you so much. If they were someone you were going to interact with frequently and assuming they have some sort of social intelligence, you could also gently tease them and/or “bless your heart” them into understanding they’re breaking etiquette, but since this is frequent I doubt they would understand. 

[happi duck]

You get to choose who you spend time with even if you think you must it really is a choice.

You could consider discussing your own treatment by B with B but I think it wouldn't be helpful to go to B about what you observe regarding others.

(I'm assuming none of this is criminal or involving a child or other vulnerable person)

[sheryl]

39 minutes ago, maize said:

If you are asking for advice on whether to confront B about these issues--no, I wouldn't do that.  Unless you have a very open relationship with B with mutual trust (thos doesn't sound like such a relationship) confronting them is likely to do no good at all.

If there is someone being hurt by B's behavior that you think you could support by having an honest discussion about boundaries with, that might be worth trying. 

B makes it a point to confront many others and is an offense "sometimes" to not only me but to others as well.  There is open relationship with this person due to the close familial relationship connection.  I am down the middle as to whether it would do good but I do see your point.  

16 minutes ago, Katy said:

It’s only appropriate to confront them about their behavior towards YOU. You’re not this person’s parent and you can control your own emotions and decide not to let them make you anxious. And evaluate why they bother you so much. If they were someone you were going to interact with frequently and assuming they have some sort of social intelligence, you could also gently tease them and/or “bless your heart” them into understanding they’re breaking etiquette, but since this is frequent I doubt they would understand. 

Right.  I am not the other person's parent.  That person is very passive and unlikely to say anything.  I am in process of pondering why B is such an offense to me but again it's "not" just me - there are several others as well.   Bless your heart won't work and hence the reason for this post - determining whether a gentle but direct approach is needed.

14 minutes ago, happi duck said:

You get to choose who you spend time with even if you think you must it really is a choice.

You could consider discussing your own treatment by B with B but I think it wouldn't be helpful to go to B about what you observe regarding others.

(I'm assuming none of this is criminal or involving a child or other vulnerable person)

Oh no, not regarding a minor child/nothing criminal.  Merely emotional and tactical manipulation, lying, etc.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

Sounds just like my FIL and the reason everyone just let him be and didn't confront him is because he would get aggressive and/or moody if you did. It wasn't worth it but it didn't make him right. So we just let him be and walked carefully, never disagreed, limited interactions, etc. 

It is hard to know how to handle these people because confrontation doesn't work. He had to always have the one up and be in full control. Other thoughts and opinions weren't allowed, listened to, or respected. 

[wintermom]

It seems to me that what you're looking for is how to make yourself feel better about the infrequent times these interactions with B take place. Here's one idea - tell yourself that B is this way. That's B's "normal" and there is no changing it. If it's any help, add into the self talk, "We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and we are all annoying at times, whether that's intentional or not."  Then just deal with it, and not try to change, fix or "improve" B. 

It's a little shift on the saying, "You can please some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time." Obviously, someone loves B and to them they are charished and important. 

[sheryl]

8 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Sounds just like my FIL and the reason everyone just let him be and didn't confront him is because he would get aggressive and/or moody if you did. It wasn't worth it but it didn't make him right. So we just let him be and walked carefully, never disagreed, limited interactions, etc. 

It is hard to know how to handle these people because confrontation doesn't work. He had to always have the one up and be in full control. Other thoughts and opinions weren't allowed, listened to, or respected. 

That is it exactly, Ann!  Thanks for sharing.  It's hard to interact with someone like this.  Appreciate it.

[sheryl]

7 minutes ago, wintermom said:

It seems to me that what you're looking for is how to make yourself feel better about the infrequent times these interactions with B take place. Here's one idea - tell yourself that B is this way. That's B's "normal" and there is no changing it. If it's any help, add into the self talk, "We all have our strengths and weaknesses, and we are all annoying at times, whether that's intentional or not."  Then just deal with it, and not try to change, fix or "improve" B. 

It's a little shift on the saying, "You can please some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time." Obviously, someone loves B and to them they are charished and important. 

For the record - my visiting B is not the main issue.  While it is difficult to interact with B, the issues are complex and center around her (manipulation, deceit, control, etc of not only me but others).  Make no mistake, I love B as this person is a close relationship.  But, you can love someone and still be aware of their issues.   These are not petty issues like B doesn't like my new jeans.   These are serious issues.  That's all I can say.  This is beyond strengths and weaknesses.  I agree we all have them.  I'm certainly aware of mine!  But, AGAIN, several other family members hold the same opinion.  

But, it seems consensus is to let it go.  I need to seriously consider this.  It's hard though because on the one hand like Ann I agree to let it go but on the other hand sometimes I believe out of LOVE truth should be spoken in an OBJECTIVE way and NOT in a self-righteous way.  Several people see the same hurtful issues that are far reaching in to the next generation and who will stop the cycle?  

[Carol in Cal.]

My inclination would be to call out things in the moment sometimes, in a pretty flat voice.

Like, “Wow, what a mean thing to say.” And not back down but not escalate either.

That would kind of put him on notice that what he is doing is noticeable, without sounding hateful.  Also, and this is subtle but important, comment on the behavior rather than the person.  Not, “Wow, you’re mean” but, “Wow, that was a mean comment.”

Edited May 12, 2023 by Carol in Cal.

[sheryl]

11 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

My inclination would be to call out things in the moment sometimes, in a pretty flat voice.

Like, “Wow, what a mean thing to say.” And not back down but not escalate either.

That would kind of put him on notice that what he is doing is noticeable, without sounding hateful.  Also, and this is subtle but important, comment on the behavior rather than the person.  Not, “Wow, you’re mean” but, “Wow, that was a mean comment.”

Yes, that has crossed my mind.  I wholeheartedly agree to focus on behavior and not person! I just think calling B out in front of others might be a disrespectful/dishonoring approach and hence the reason for wanting to talk to this person privately.  But, I really don't know if it would even do any good.  

[bolt.]

My first question to ask myself is always:  Is this person well?

Because I have totally different protocols for people I consider 'unwell' -- in that I serve them as selflessly as possible, and put up with a variety of inconveniences, including bad behaviour and some (occasional) personal mistreatment. If a person is unwell, I manage them through pointedly ignoring when they cross a line, and continuing to 'give' as much as I reasonably/comfortably can. When I "can't" do something, or handle something, for my own wellbeing, I manage that by boundarying my own behaviour and making bland excuses for myself.

This strategy falls under, "Stay quiet, put up with it." -- but it only applies to people who are 'unwell' enough to qualify for unconditional help in my life. It's not for regular folks

Regular folks I manage through boundaries and mini-confrontations, but not with big confrontations or discussions.

I'm someone who is willing to say, "How rude!" or "I don't like it when you do xyz." or "That's a very personal question!" or "I don't want to talk about lmnop." or "Please don't do that." -- these are what I call mini confrontations. I don't let a conversation proceed without mentioning that a line has been crossed, that I am uncomfortable, or that I don't want to participate. I also do smaller things.

Like, my one auntie, when she makes a racist comment or a micro-aggression within an anecdote, I simply refuse to nod, smile, say 'uh-huh' or take my turn in conversation when she is done that particular comment. I let it fall flat, into dead silence. Keeping dead silence and a straight face when it's your turn to smile, nod, or speak is *surprisingly* powerful, even though the other person hardly knows what you are doing or why they are suddenly uncomfortable.

If the issue with B is 'control' -- it's quite easy to teach her that it simply doesn't work on you. You aren't going to let 'good manners' force you to yield to her preferences every time. Say things like, "I don't want to." or "I don't plan to do that." or "I'm actually going to do (something else) instead." -- or just walk away and start doing something else, and act like she said nothing, and you never even heard her control-attempt.

This strategy is all about keeping cool, speaking politely but clearly, and doing things instead of talking about them. It's boundaries wrapped in a very thin veil (which allows other people to pretend the conflict isn't happening) designed to do nothing more than keep you independent of her machinations. And it's not actually hard. You just have to bend yourself around some social rules of things that usually don't get said. Many social rules are designed to reduce open conflict by letting the most insistent person have their way -- those are the ones you bend. You change them to the new rule: the person whose body it is gets to make all the decisions that pertain to that body. She does whatever she wants with her body and her words. You, on the other hand, are completely independent from her and her wishes.

Also, feel free to avoid her as much as seems reasonable to you, either by skipping events (balancing for other factors like wanting to participate in family events), or by 'wandering off' when she approaches you at events.

Also, remember this is about your independence from her conduct, which may change the way she treats you, but is unlikely to change how she treats people in general or how she acts in everyday life. You can't be responsible for that kind of change. Just be a good example and look after yourself. Try not to worry about the ways she mistreats other people (unless it's severe, and the impact is relevant to you and your loved ones).

[Indigo Blue]

43 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Sounds just like my FIL and the reason everyone just let him be and didn't confront him is because he would get aggressive and/or moody if you did. It wasn't worth it but it didn't make him right. So we just let him be and walked carefully, never disagreed, limited interactions, etc. 

It is hard to know how to handle these people because confrontation doesn't work. He had to always have the one up and be in full control. Other thoughts and opinions weren't allowed, listened to, or respected. 

Sigh. This is my mom. 
 

OP, it seems you can’t confront toxic people because it is most always unproductive. I see this and I practice this, but I struggle with crossing the line into enabling behavior. It’s hard to see a vulnerable person be taken advantage of and be mistreated. Maybe a good approach would be to educate the vulnerable people on the concepts of limiting contact (if possible) and grey rock instead of confronting the toxic person. This validates and strengthens the vulnerable person(s) without rocking the boat with the toxic one. 
 

I’m all for having a talk with the person, but if you feel it will just make things worse, then don’t. 
 

It’s so frustrating having to walk around on eggshells for toxic people. 

[wintermom]

51 minutes ago, sheryl said:

 Several people see the same hurtful issues that are far reaching in to the next generation and who will stop the cycle?  

This is not your job, though. Unless you are married to this person, it's beyond your sphere of influence. UNLESS the person asks you for help. Just my thoughts. If you wade in and "try to help" it may not go well. No matter what you try to do, you will probably be seen as the bad guy. And not just for B, but potentially for everyone B is involved in.

Edited May 12, 2023 by wintermom

[forty-two]

Since you mentioned that you are Christian, in your shoes I would pray about it.  I know that sounds like a pious cop-out or something, but I don't mean it that way - I'm 100% serious.  You have a problem that really bothering you and negatively affecting others, and you don't know what to do about it or if anything *can* be done or even if you have standing to do something in the first place: you might not know what to do, but God does; you might not be able to do anything, but God certainly can.  Not to say you *haven't* been praying about it, but just trying to maybe reframe what "doing something about it" means: that praying about it is *itself* doing something, and the most necessary something.  Interceding with God is a most basic and fundamental good work, underlying and supporting our other good works.

[SKL]

If his behavior is akin to abuse of someone, it may be appropriate to ask the recipients if they need anything from you.  Make sure they know they can seek help if they need it to be safe.

Otherwise, normally I would just remind myself that people have a right to be wrong.  It sounds like your family member's issues are very obviously a "him" issue; I would assume everyone in the family can see that and just not take his crap personally.

We've had family jerks.  I'm pretty sure all families have them.  Most likely there is some mental illness, disability, or trauma behind it, and most likely nobody in the family can fix it even if they want to.  So as long as everyone is safe, get your eyeroll exercise and be happy you don't have to live with the person.

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

Yes, that has crossed my mind.  I wholeheartedly agree to focus on behavior and not person! I just think calling B out in front of others might be a disrespectful/dishonoring approach and hence the reason for wanting to talk to this person privately.  But, I really don't know if it would even do any good.  

I think that it’s important to let go of a question of whether something will do any good, and decide what to do based on what you can stand and what you feel called upon to do to live well with yourself.  If you call something out *to change him*, then you’re going to be too invested in the results.  But if you call something out, in a factual, flat, but warm way, to feel like you did your moral duty as a good person, and let go your responsibility at that point, then paradoxically you’re more likely to be effective, specifically because it takes the negative pressure out of the conversation and leaves you having had your say without being invested in what happens next.

[Faith-manor]

Here is my advice:

When a person shows you who they are believe them. It is a rare rare case that saying something is productive. Anxiety is not good for your heart and mental health. People need to be more aware of this, and not put themselves in the line of fire, so avoiding social contact with this person would be very good. Try not to accept invitations to events when this person is attending, and visit family at other times. If you can not avoid, do the grey rock. Do not engage in conversation. If they greet you with, "How are you?" or something similar, "fine" and no details is your response. Do not answer questions with details of your life or anyone in your family. Be polite, but not lonely friendly. You do not owe them a chat, personal information, or anything else. You really do not. Just put on your "Mr. Spock" face, and move on to someone in the group you feel safe with, and then cut your attendance short as possoble, "So sorry. We have so much going ont his week, we really can't stay very long."

[BusyMom5]

I know a person or two that can act like that, and they always get away with behavior no one else would ever consider!  I have a few thoughts on this-

1.  No one can change her behavior,  its been there her whole life.  Even if she wanted to change, it would be really hard.  

2.  Your other relatives know she is the way she is.  They don't believe what she says.  They avoid her when possible.  They feel badly for those who have to deal with her regularly. 

3.  The only thing you have control over is how you react to her behaviors.  You cannot control her,  nor can you control how others interact with her.

 

In my extended family there are a few situations where DH and I have had to really consider how to handle family dynamics and get-togethers.  One family member has behaved so that a handful of us are avoiding him.  Unfortunately that means that when he is present,  we do not visit.  I know it makes certain family members sad, but we just remind them that XXX has done Y, and has not apologized.   

There is another family situation that involves a dynamic I cannot support, so we have avoided that as well.  We still see everyone when that situation is not present, and we are saying nothing to anyone else, its just a personal decision my husband and I have made.  

I guess what I'm saying is that putting a space between you and your Person doesn't have to involve a big confrontation.  It doesn't even require a conversation.  You can just have something else to do when they are present.   If Person attacks someone else,  you can give them support and let them know that you know that's how B is.  You can get up and leave if they start misbehaving.  You don't even have to explain- Just say " I think its time for us to go home.  Loved seeing you all!" And go.  

[OH_Homeschooler]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

There is a close family member (relationship) with whom I disagree.  We are alike on many fronts but B's personality is so different and demeanor, actions, behavior, etc can be quite rude and offending to me and others in their little family circle.  This person gets away with a lot.  Why do people tolerate the same, repeated bad behavior, action, spoken word, etc????

Several people in my family have borderline personality disorder traits, and so my response is coming from this background. 

People tolerate bad behavior because confronting the person will not change a thing. Perhaps they have already tried. Confronting some people only causes a big blow up, followed by no change in behavior (or a worsening of behavior). The best you can do with some people is to know who they are so they cannot get to you, and minimize contact whenever possible. 

[TexasProud]

27 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Here is my advice:

When a person shows you who they are believe them. It is a rare rare case that saying something is productive. Anxiety is not good for your heart and mental health. People need to be more aware of this, and not put themselves in the line of fire, so avoiding social contact with this person would be very good. Try not to accept invitations to events when this person is attending, and visit family at other times. If you can not avoid, do the grey rock. Do not engage in conversation. If they greet you with, "How are you?" or something similar, "fine" and no details is your response. Do not answer questions with details of your life or anyone in your family. Be polite, but not lonely friendly. You do not owe them a chat, personal information, or anything else. You really do not. Just put on your "Mr. Spock" face, and move on to someone in the group you feel safe with, and then cut your attendance short as possoble, "So sorry. We have so much going ont his week, we really can't stay very long."

What if the person is your adult child? (Which might be the close family member) That would be hard for me. 

[J-rap]

A couple thoughts...  If it doesn't feel right to confront them (and I can think of reasons why it wouldn't be), then I would separate yourself emotionally from them.  Treat them as you might a customer at a store.  You can act professional on the surface but don't get involved emotionally or share anything personally beyond that.  

Or, if you think this person has a mental health issue or personality disorder, it might help to talk to a psychologist.  I did that once about someone close to me who I just couldn't figure out.  I knew there was something "off" and it sat so heavily on me yet I couldn't really understand it and I didn't know what to do about it.  I didn't know if a psychologist would actually talk to me about trying to diagnose someone else who wasn't even there, but she was extremely helpful.  We spent about three sessions together.

Of course, no diagnosis could officially be made because she could only base things on my examples and our conversations, but it was a tremendous help to me.  I felt like I understood things much better after talking with her.  She really laid things out well for me, and gave me ideas of how to deal with someone like that.  

Edited May 12, 2023 by J-rap

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Sounds just like my FIL and the reason everyone just let him be and didn't confront him is because he would get aggressive and/or moody if you did. It wasn't worth it but it didn't make him right. So we just let him be and walked carefully, never disagreed, limited interactions, etc. 

It is hard to know how to handle these people because confrontation doesn't work. He had to always have the one up and be in full control. Other thoughts and opinions weren't allowed, listened to, or respected. 

There is someone in my circle like this. We tiptoe around this person. Talking about it just incites a burn-it-all-down rage, both in-your-face and also in the form of lies and gossip after. The consequence unfortunately is that this person has lost and continues to lose relationships.

[prairiewindmomma]

It is ok to set a boundary of not visiting. I think that is what you are asking about. Over time they will drive people away. Maintain contact with whom you want to maintain contact. As things shift you can do either secondary family gatherings with B not there or whatever you want.

Therapy was helpful in getting me to a point to where I could cope with the personality disordered people in my life. 

[City Mouse]

With your mention on being worried about being disrespect or dishonoring, I am going to assume that this person is an older relative.

I have a close relative who is similar. Different family members handle the situation in different ways. It is all about boundaries as has been discussed here many, many times, Two siblings limit visits to very short visits 1-2 times per year. One sibling has cut this person off completely. I live far away and was visiting 1-2 times per year, but visits have  increased recently due to health/ general elderly person issues. I can have individual but very generic conversations with the person. I have called this person out when something “mean” is said. I usually say something like “I am sure you didn’t mean it this way, but when you said ****, that sounds like you mean that ****”. This gives the person a way out without causing a big argument. The person will say “oh, I didn’t mean it that way” even if we all know she really did. Then when the person is being extremely difficult, I will find a reason to run and errand or go out and play Pokémon Go, anything to get away for a while without starting more drama. When there was a spouse to protect (no physical abuse) that was my main focus. Now that the spouse has passed away, the difficult person will have to live with the consequences of previous behavior. 
 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, bolt. said:

My first question to ask myself is always:  Is this person well?

Because I have totally different protocols for people I consider 'unwell' -- in that I serve them as selflessly as possible, and put up with a variety of inconveniences, including bad behaviour and some (occasional) personal mistreatment. If a person is unwell, I manage them through pointedly ignoring when they cross a line, and continuing to 'give' as much as I reasonably/comfortably can. When I "can't" do something, or handle something, for my own wellbeing, I manage that by boundarying my own behaviour and making bland excuses for myself.

This strategy falls under, "Stay quiet, put up with it." -- but it only applies to people who are 'unwell' enough to qualify for unconditional help in my life. It's not for regular folks

Regular folks I manage through boundaries and mini-confrontations, but not with big confrontations or discussions.

I'm someone who is willing to say, "How rude!" or "I don't like it when you do xyz." or "That's a very personal question!" or "I don't want to talk about lmnop." or "Please don't do that." -- these are what I call mini confrontations. I don't let a conversation proceed without mentioning that a line has been crossed, that I am uncomfortable, or that I don't want to participate. I also do smaller things.

Like, my one auntie, when she makes a racist comment or a micro-aggression within an anecdote, I simply refuse to nod, smile, say 'uh-huh' or take my turn in conversation when she is done that particular comment. I let it fall flat, into dead silence. Keeping dead silence and a straight face when it's your turn to smile, nod, or speak is *surprisingly* powerful, even though the other person hardly knows what you are doing or why they are suddenly uncomfortable.

If the issue with B is 'control' -- it's quite easy to teach her that it simply doesn't work on you. You aren't going to let 'good manners' force you to yield to her preferences every time. Say things like, "I don't want to." or "I don't plan to do that." or "I'm actually going to do (something else) instead." -- or just walk away and start doing something else, and act like she said nothing, and you never even heard her control-attempt.

This strategy is all about keeping cool, speaking politely but clearly, and doing things instead of talking about them. It's boundaries wrapped in a very thin veil (which allows other people to pretend the conflict isn't happening) designed to do nothing more than keep you independent of her machinations. And it's not actually hard. You just have to bend yourself around some social rules of things that usually don't get said. Many social rules are designed to reduce open conflict by letting the most insistent person have their way -- those are the ones you bend. You change them to the new rule: the person whose body it is gets to make all the decisions that pertain to that body. She does whatever she wants with her body and her words. You, on the other hand, are completely independent from her and her wishes.

Also, feel free to avoid her as much as seems reasonable to you, either by skipping events (balancing for other factors like wanting to participate in family events), or by 'wandering off' when she approaches you at events.

Also, remember this is about your independence from her conduct, which may change the way she treats you, but is unlikely to change how she treats people in general or how she acts in everyday life. You can't be responsible for that kind of change. Just be a good example and look after yourself. Try not to worry about the ways she mistreats other people (unless it's severe, and the impact is relevant to you and your loved ones).

Well, bolt, that is well said!   Yes, what I'm saying is I've done the above strategy for years but to no avail.  This person's issue is control but also manipulation and deceit which all can be a part of the 3 ring circus.  It's exhausting.  I have set a boundary in how B discusses this one person.  You are right, she has backed off a bit but only a bit.  B makes it a point to micromanage everyone's life!!!!  After decades it's a built up of stress.  But, I feel bad for B b/c I'm assuming B is unhappy or is faced with some issue that would improve in counseling.  I will glean over your reply again.  Thanks! 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Sigh. This is my mom. 
 

OP, it seems you can’t confront toxic people because it is most always unproductive. I see this and I practice this, but I struggle with crossing the line into enabling behavior. It’s hard to see a vulnerable person be taken advantage of and be mistreated. Maybe a good approach would be to educate the vulnerable people on the concepts of limiting contact (if possible) and grey rock instead of confronting the toxic person. This validates and strengthens the vulnerable person(s) without rocking the boat with the toxic one. 
 

I’m all for having a talk with the person, but if you feel it will just make things worse, then don’t. 
 

It’s so frustrating having to walk around on eggshells for toxic people. 

YES, that's it too! It may be unproductive but I feel like I/we are enabling behavior.  I just need to seriously consider what to do.  

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, forty-two said:

Since you mentioned that you are Christian, in your shoes I would pray about it.  I know that sounds like a pious cop-out or something, but I don't mean it that way - I'm 100% serious.  You have a problem that really bothering you and negatively affecting others, and you don't know what to do about it or if anything *can* be done or even if you have standing to do something in the first place: you might not know what to do, but God does; you might not be able to do anything, but God certainly can.  Not to say you *haven't* been praying about it, but just trying to maybe reframe what "doing something about it" means: that praying about it is *itself* doing something, and the most necessary something.  Interceding with God is a most basic and fundamental good work, underlying and supporting our other good works.

YES!  I absolutely agree!  Have been praying about it - for all people involved.   Biblically if we have ought against another we are to peaceable confront them and reason with them.  My hesitation is that this person will not get it as so many others have said.  However, I have been seeking the Lord on this and I did see B changed mind on a topic for the better.  B was going to do or say something to someone and she decided not to which is good.  It is such a messed up situation but God can take the ashes and create something beautiful.  In the present moment, there are other family relationships which are being altered because of B.

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

If his behavior is akin to abuse of someone, it may be appropriate to ask the recipients if they need anything from you.  Make sure they know they can seek help if they need it to be safe.

Otherwise, normally I would just remind myself that people have a right to be wrong.  It sounds like your family member's issues are very obviously a "him" issue; I would assume everyone in the family can see that and just not take his crap personally.

We've had family jerks.  I'm pretty sure all families have them.  Most likely there is some mental illness, disability, or trauma behind it, and most likely nobody in the family can fix it even if they want to.  So as long as everyone is safe, get your eyeroll exercise and be happy you don't have to live with the person.

NO!  Not abuse but emotional control.  If I could share details it would make more sense to everyone.  B micromanages and controls others.  She has the best answer for everything and has been there FIRST and done that FIRST!  Very prideful!   I love B - this is just hard.  Yes, it is a B issue and others know it but everyone cow tows (sp?) to B including the spouse.  I'm tip toeing out on the limb to say that B has influence over a couple in the family and b/c doesn't like the spouse the other spouse is considering divorce.  No further discussion on that one except to say that is the INFLUENCE he has.  

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I think that it’s important to let go of a question of whether something will do any good, and decide what to do based on what you can stand and what you feel called upon to do to live well with yourself.  If you call something out *to change him*, then you’re going to be too invested in the results.  But if you call something out, in a factual, flat, but warm way, to feel like you did your moral duty as a good person, and let go your responsibility at that point, then paradoxically you’re more likely to be effective, specifically because it takes the negative pressure out of the conversation and leaves you having had your say without being invested in what happens next.

Yes, this is what I'm pondering.  Thanks Carol!

[heartlikealion]

I’m lost as to why the visits continue. Don’t even tell them you are coming to town. If confronted tell them an excuse (busy etc) or say that you don’t wish to spend time with someone that ____ (cite toxic behavior or such). 

Your spouse should try to support your decision not to spend time with B. If, for example, this is your spouse’s sister, just bow out of the visits if your spouse wants to see their sister. 

I don’t think you can exactly equate familial ties with trust. It’s either there or it isn’t, regardless of blood/marriage. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by heartlikealion

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Here is my advice:

When a person shows you who they are believe them. It is a rare rare case that saying something is productive. Anxiety is not good for your heart and mental health. People need to be more aware of this, and not put themselves in the line of fire, so avoiding social contact with this person would be very good. Try not to accept invitations to events when this person is attending, and visit family at other times. If you can not avoid, do the grey rock. Do not engage in conversation. If they greet you with, "How are you?" or something similar, "fine" and no details is your response. Do not answer questions with details of your life or anyone in your family. Be polite, but not lonely friendly. You do not owe them a chat, personal information, or anything else. You really do not. Just put on your "Mr. Spock" face, and move on to someone in the group you feel safe with, and then cut your attendance short as possoble, "So sorry. We have so much going ont his week, we really can't stay very long."

Another poster mentioned grey lock.  What the heck is that?!?!! See, I can NOT avoid being around this person as B is a close relative of mine.  I don't have to see them every chance but I will see them and want to.  I love B and want to see B - but it's just usually a difficult visit b/c something happens.

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

What if the person is your adult child? (Which might be the close family member) That would be hard for me. 

NO, I mentioned this is not a person in my immediate family.  This is an extended family member.  Not far removed but outside of my immediate family of dh. dd and me.

[heartlikealion]

Just now, sheryl said:

Another poster mentioned grey lock.  What the heck is that?!?!! See, I can NOT avoid being around this person as B is a close relative of mine.  I don't have to see them every chance but I will see them and want to.  I love B and want to see B - but it's just usually a difficult visit b/c something happens.

I think you need to decide if you’re confusing actually wanting to see this person vs feeling obligated to. So what if they are a close relative. Normalize avoiding toxicity. 

Gray rock is limiting interactions, being boring with responses so you are like a rock. Just a boring rock. Then people with certain personalities won’t want to feed off your responses etc. Also google “yellow rock.” It is basically a little less cold. 

I think you might be trying too hard just because of a blood/marriage tie. They suck to be around. Maybe just don’t. 

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, J-rap said:

A couple thoughts...  If it doesn't feel right to confront them (and I can think of reasons why it wouldn't be), then I would separate yourself emotionally from them.  Treat them as you might a customer at a store.  You can act professional on the surface but don't get involved emotionally or share anything personally beyond that.  

Or, if you think this person has a mental health issue or personality disorder, it might help to talk to a psychologist.  I did that once about someone close to me who I just couldn't figure out.  I knew there was something "off" and it sat so heavily on me yet I couldn't really understand it and I didn't know what to do about it.  I didn't know if a psychologist would actually talk to me about trying to diagnose someone else who wasn't even there, but she was extremely helpful.  We spent about three sessions together.

Of course, no diagnosis could officially be made because she could only base things on my examples and our conversations, but it was a tremendous help to me.  I felt like I understood things much better after talking with her.  She really laid things out well for me, and gave me ideas of how to deal with someone like that.  

Yes, I may do that as well.  Sounds like you carried a heavy burden.   That's how I feel now.

[sheryl]

38 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

With your mention on being worried about being disrespect or dishonoring, I am going to assume that this person is an older relative.

I have a close relative who is similar. Different family members handle the situation in different ways. It is all about boundaries as has been discussed here many, many times, Two siblings limit visits to very short visits 1-2 times per year. One sibling has cut this person off completely. I live far away and was visiting 1-2 times per year, but visits have  increased recently due to health/ general elderly person issues. I can have individual but very generic conversations with the person. I have called this person out when something “mean” is said. I usually say something like “I am sure you didn’t mean it this way, but when you said ****, that sounds like you mean that ****”. This gives the person a way out without causing a big argument. The person will say “oh, I didn’t mean it that way” even if we all know she really did. Then when the person is being extremely difficult, I will find a reason to run and errand or go out and play Pokémon Go, anything to get away for a while without starting more drama. When there was a spouse to protect (no physical abuse) that was my main focus. Now that the spouse has passed away, the difficult person will have to live with the consequences of previous behavior. 
 

B is roughly my age - only 4 years older.  Yes, there does sound like some similar traits there.

[Arcadia]

My in-laws and a late aunt behave similar. Since they are my parents generation, it is just easier to ignore them. They crave attention and want people to agree with whatever they say. When ignored, they just look for other people to be “victims”. My FIL’s sister would call them out on bad behavior but they are the same generation. My cousin who behaves that way is in a different country and when we were in the same place, my cousins would tell him off bluntly. Unfortunately some people won’t change. 

[sheryl]

9 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I’m lost as to why the visits continue. Don’t even tell them you are coming to town. If confronted tell them an excuse (busy etc) or say that you don’t wish to spend time with someone that ____ (cite toxic behavior or such). 

Your spouse should try to support your decision not to spend time with B. If, for example, this is your spouse’s sister, just bow out of the visits if your spouse wants to see their sister. 

I don’t think you can exactly equate familial ties with trust. It’s either there or it isn’t, regardless of blood/marriage. 

DH does support me.  He sees B's mess.  It continues to get worse b/c it's never addressed.  I've said often B is a close family relationship to me so I'll continue to see this person but am considering all aspects before making a decision.

[sheryl]

6 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

I think you need to decide if you’re confusing actually wanting to see this person vs feeling obligated to. So what if they are a close relative. Normalize avoiding toxicity. 

Gray rock is limiting interactions, being boring with responses so you are like a rock. Just a boring rock. Then people with certain personalities won’t want to feed off your responses etc. Also google “yellow rock.” It is basically a little less cold. 

I think you might be trying too hard just because of a blood/marriage tie. They suck to be around. Maybe just don’t. 

Hmm.  Wanting vs obligation.  Let me add that to the recipe to consider.  Good point.  I do want to see B but it's just difficult.  Obligated - there was a birthday party in their circle we attended yesterday so we went.  Let me think about it. 

[heartlikealion]

Just now, sheryl said:

DH does support me.  He sees B's mess.  It continues to get worse b/c it's never addressed.  I've said often B is a close family relationship to me so I'll continue to see this person but am considering all aspects before making a decision.

That’s the thing. This is obligation not desire. I butt heads with family and plan to spend less time with them or in more controlled circumstances. You may want to consider if meeting in public, for example, affects their behavior. I think it’s outdated thinking we must surround ourselves with people just because of DNA. 

[sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

My in-laws and a late aunt behave similar. Since they are my parents generation, it is just easier to ignore them. They crave attention and want people to agree with whatever they say. When ignored, they just look for other people to be “victims”. My FIL’s sister would call them out on bad behavior but they are the same generation. My cousin who behaves that way is in a different country and when we were in the same place, my cousins would tell him off bluntly. Unfortunately some people won’t change. 

B is 4 years older.  Same generation.  Your relative never changed?

[heartlikealion]

Oh our responses overlapped 🙂 

[sheryl]

1 minute ago, heartlikealion said:

That’s the thing. This is obligation not desire. I butt heads with family and plan to spend less time with them or in more controlled circumstances. You may want to consider if meeting in public, for example, affects their behavior. I think it’s outdated thinking we must surround ourselves with people just because of DNA. 

I see your point!  In public is different and better behavior.  Interesting!

[wintermom]

It may be hard to believe, but there are people who thrive on drama. You said that you assumed B is unhappy. That may not be the case AT ALL. This could be what they love and how they like to interact with others. If this behaviour is constant, then why not assume it's intentional. 

[Arcadia]

6 minutes ago, sheryl said:

B is 4 years older.  Same generation.  Your relative never changed?

Nope. She is my dad’s older sister and never changed until the day she passed.  She lived at the adjacent block to my childhood home so we can’t avoid running into her in public places like the neighborhood grocery stores.

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, wintermom said:

It may be hard to believe, but there are people who thrive on drama. You said that you assumed B is unhappy. That may not be the case AT ALL. This could be what they love and how they like to interact with others. If this behaviour is constant, then why not assume it's intentional. 

Yes, the lying, deceit and manipulation keeps everyone off balance and builds drama. It is intentional.

[Harriet Vane]

30 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I see your point!  In public is different and better behavior.  Interesting!

A similar dynamic is behavior in front of “outsiders.” Many years ago, I had some unhappy, dysfunctional people in my life. (That generation has since passed away.) I started inviting my darling mother-in-law to gatherings. She was such a pleasant, laughing, smiling, chatting, lovely person. She was an outsider, which put everyone on best behavior. Awesome. And she was such a likeable, encouraging person that the group would relax in spite of themselves. 

[Carol in Cal.]

14 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

A similar dynamic is behavior in front of “outsiders.” Many years ago, I had some unhappy, dysfunctional people in my life. (That generation has since passed away.) I started inviting my darling mother-in-law to gatherings. She was such a pleasant, laughing, smiling, chatting, lovely person. She was an outsider, which put everyone on best behavior. Awesome. And she was such a likeable, encouraging person that the group would relax in spite of themselves. 

Yes!  Or as a friend of mine used to say, “Dilution is a solution to pollution.”

[BusyMom5]

19 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

A similar dynamic is behavior in front of “outsiders.” Many years ago, I had some unhappy, dysfunctional people in my life. (That generation has since passed away.) I started inviting my darling mother-in-law to gatherings. She was such a pleasant, laughing, smiling, chatting, lovely person. She was an outsider, which put everyone on best behavior. Awesome. And she was such a likeable, encouraging person that the group would relax in spite of themselves. 

I must say that this is genius!  

 

[importswim]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

YES!  I absolutely agree!  Have been praying about it - for all people involved.   Biblically if we have ought against another we are to peaceable confront them and reason with them.  My hesitation is that this person will not get it as so many others have said.  However, I have been seeking the Lord on this and I did see B changed mind on a topic for the better.  B was going to do or say something to someone and she decided not to which is good.  It is such a messed up situation but God can take the ashes and create something beautiful.  In the present moment, there are other family relationships which are being altered because of B.

Biblical conflict resolution is important! Is this family member a believer? If not then Matthew 18 doesn't really apply, though speaking truth in love and gentleness can sometimes go down well. Praying like you're already doing is the best thing. When we're praying for the difficult people in our lives it serves two purposes: Petitioning with the Lord to change their hearts (and call them to Himself if they're not believers), and gives us a special kind of love for that person.

However, you can easily have boundaries and also be peaceable with them so you don't always have to say something or get yourself involved in a drawn out conflict (which it might be if you confront). Be praying for discernment. I think it's wise to not jump in and correct, like you've already been doing.

I would definitely say that it's helpful to see a biblical counselor if only to just get some tools to use. Difficult people are so hard. I have a couple of them in my life!