Difficult ADHD/ODD Son...Graduate Him Early? Late? Argh!

[JumpyTheFrog]

DS16 is in 11th grade. He doesn't generally like doing school work, unless it's just reading. It looks like he may have been cheating on many of his algebra 2 problems this chapter. 

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!! I just discovered right now that he cheated on his physics test for his online class. He had gotten a C on his last test, so we reduced the amount of time per week he can spend video editing for his YouTube channel from 7 hours to 3 hours. He was told his hours would be increased once he improved his study habits and got his grades up. This is infuriating! Asking him about this won't do any good because he'll just lie, like he usually does about anything screen time related.

Help! What do we do, about this round of cheating and dealing with him and his attitude in general? Normal consequences/punishments have never work well for this child. Parenting books haven't been very useful because they are all aimed at normal kids. The type of advice they give would work well with DS13, but not DS16.

[QueenCat]

Maybe have him take the GED to graduate? Unless he's met the requirements for graduation, I don't see a different solution. 

Then you can say, okay, done with high school. Time to get a job... 

[BlsdMama]

If you look at my past posts, you’ll see we did exactly that. I was very torn over the  idea.  I’ll add a big caveat though. DS knew exactly what he wanted to do next and he loves working hard. He hasn’t worked less than 30 hours a week since he graduated and he does a night class for days a week learning a trade. 
 

So, if he graduates early, what’s the plan? Is he ready for that plan?

[catz]

What are his post high school goals?  Does he imagine college for himself?  Does he want to work?  If you need to get him through some stuff, I'd try to make it reading oriented.  If he has a lot of free time, I'd have him apply for jobs.  

[Carrie12345]

I don’t have specific advice, but I did decline to graduate a child. They have the ability to take an equivalency test if they so choose.

[Storygirl]

I don't have homeschooling advice, because we are no longer homeschooling. But we are still dragging our son through his senior year. He needs a certain grade in a certain class to be eligible to graduate, and he doesn't care, so we have to do all of the pushing, arguing, cajoling to get him to the end. It's exhausting. So I'm very sympathetic!

[Storygirl]

I guess I do have advice. I think if I were in your position, the consequence would be more supervision of his work. Which stinks for you but may be what is needed. My DS hates working with me for homework and is a big stinking pill (also ADHD, ODD, and a slew of other things), but we do it anyway. The relationship issues are difficult (understatement).

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

Parenting books haven't been very useful because they are all aimed at normal kids.

I don't have advice.

I have kids that parenting books don't fit. There are other books that do fit--often bits and pieces, but sometimes whole books. And websites. And podcasts. 

I know it's recommended here a lot--The Explosive Child. I don't know if it would fit your situation, but IIRC, it does talk about skills difficult kids need and how to work on those, and it's almost certain that if he has ADHD, he has skills to learn. I kind of took what we needed from it.

But there are tons of books about ADHD and ODD. Look for ones about teens and adults.

Is counseling an option? Public school? Around here, we have career centers where much of the student body is made up of kids like yours, and homeschoolers have access to them.

I hope this helps.

[ScoutTN]

No advice, just empathy. This is a hard road. 

I have a tough Ds too. He is in school, but the foundational issues are still there. But he is out of my house for 10+ hours a day, 5 days a week and has interaction with other authority figures than me and Dh. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by ScoutTN

[BusyMom5]

What does he want to do?  Is he willing to take some online classes on graphic design?  DE classes?  Are there any half-day programs near you that offer graphic design to high schoolers?  Our local career center does.  

Is his school too hard?  It can be difficult to find the right balance, but physics is known to be hard.  Maybe switch his science to something a bit easier?  

[EKS]

I agree with @Storygirl.  I'd supervise his work from here on out.  Generally, when we had cheating issues here it was a combination of feeling overwhelmed and opportunity.  Take away the opportunity and help him with the overwhelm.

[Melissa Louise]

Different situation, but I graduated ds early, and sent him to work.

He has absolutely THRIVED in the work place.

I do anticipate him returning to study next year, and ymmv - it's relatively easy for us here to access study at any age. He will likely do something IT or graphic design related (not at university).

ADHD can do a number on an individual's perception of themselves as academic, and I wouldn't downplay the role his neurological differences are playing here.

[prairiewindmomma]

How are his fundamental executive functioning skills? Does he initiate his work? Does he persist at doing it, working through challenges, or if he needs a break, does he bring himself back to it? 

16 is a bit late in the game to start really trying to address ADHD and ODD as it relates to schoolwork---but I think you should view lying and cheating as symptoms of an underlying deficiency in skill. Punishing the lying and the cheating doesn't fix the underlying problem, iykwim. So, first I'd look to see where the skills are lacking. Second, I'd provide more supervision because it doesn't sound like he's ready for independent work. Finally, I'd look to where he wants to go.  16 is just a couple of years away from adulthood. What are his plans for independent adult life? What skills does he need to develop to get there?

Even if he decides to get a GED and graduate or do whatever, I'm going to .02 that some of those underlying problems will remain.  I'd focus on those.

Also, if he's had a huge weight change or if he's been on the same med for a number of years for the ADHD, I'd look at a med change as an option. Sometimes those meds stop working as well, in our experience.

[DeainUSA]

Is lowering the grade expectation an option?  If he's not going to do the work or cheat to get the higher grade anyway.  

[Storygirl]

1 hour ago, DeainUSA said:

Is lowering the grade expectation an option?  If he's not going to do the work or cheat to get the higher grade anyway.  

I reread the OP and wanted to piggyback on this comment. To get more screen time, he had to improve his grade. So that inadvertently may have encouraged the cheating. Desperate for the screen time? He wanted to ensure that he could get it back.

We also use screen time as a consequence or incentive, because it is the currency that works for DS, so I'm not saying that your basic idea won't work. But maybe you need to tweak it.

Instead of him having to earn his screen time by getting a certain grade in the class or on a test (long term goal), think about having him earn his daily screen time through his daily classwork (short term goal that will seem more achievable). With you supervising and checking daily, it allows you to catch problems earlier, support the instruction with extra help if needed, make sure he is putting in the time and effort, etc.

With ADHD, tackling big tasks can seem daunting, and it's easy to give up. If he thinks he can't/won't make that goal to get a B, he may think, "why put in the effort, if I might not achieve the goal," and then not try. Physics can be HARD. Maybe instead of penalizing him for getting a C by taking away screens, you could ADD support and help. Then the message you are sending is "you need more help with this class to learn the material well," instead of "we will punish you for getting C's and not trying hard enough."

[katilac]

Adding my voice to 'more supervision.' 

Probably much more. Not in a punitive way, just a matter of fact 'that way didn't work, we will now try this way.' Give him fewer chances to lie. 

For what it's worth, I have taught and tutored many kids over the years. I always encourage parents to rate the process, not the product. The process is going to class, completing the work, doing the studying (studying does not equal holding the text in your lap for two hours, it means output in the form of notes or verbal study sessions with a parent, etc.).  The student has a lot of control over the process, even if they need scaffolding. Discuss what a reasonable process looks like for that particular student, and help them make a plan for it. 

Grades are the product, and they have much less control. Focusing on product instead of process encourages cheating and bad habits like cramming. 

Make sure his work level is appropriate and suited to his goals and interests. If you're at the point of throwing up your hands, consider radically adjusting his courses first. I probably wouldn't have a kid who doesn't like school, and who's stuck in a loop of bad attitude and frustration, in a physics class. Plus it can be a tough go for an 11th-grader in algebra 2. Both of my kids were actually pretty academic, but one of them did not take physics at all. With her particular goals, interests, and personality, I was fine with skipping physics in favor of her having more time for her art. Working hard at art or singing or video editing is not inherently less valuable than working hard at physics, and physics is not going anywhere if he decides he wants to learn it. 

Also, some kids are C students, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that. Not everyone is academic. If your kid is making a reasonable effort and gets a C, then he gets a C. Not the end of the world. Physics is hard, yo. Don't remove the things he's good at in favor of spending more and more time on the things he's not good at. 

Does he have any input into his schedule? Even if he has, it's time to recalibrate. Just tell him that what y'all are doing now is clearly not working, and ask him what HE thinks would make it better. Have that discussion on what a reasonable process looks like for him in particular, what MUST be done, and different ways it can be done. For example, I required math every year, but both of my kids took discrete mathematics senior year instead of calc or pre-calc. It didn't stop one of them from taking the calc a-b-c in college, even though they didn't need to, and the other one did fine in her required business calculus, stats, and so forth in college. 

tl;dr: Some kids are smart and talented and hard working and also C students. It's okay to shake things up and take a different approach. Lots of productive citizens were once angsty, sullen teenagers. You will survive. 

[Storygirl]

I'm also going to mention that if he is passionate about working on his YouTube channel, his previous seven hours per week limit was pretty strict. That's one hour per day. My son who is into his guitar practices more than one hour per day, because he loves it. I love to read and want to read for more than an hour a day. I get the concern about too much screen time for a kid who is easily sucked into it. At times we have strictly limited it here. But maybe use the YouTube work as a carrot instead of a stick. Give him MORE time to work on it as a reward, instead of restricting it as a punishment. Video editing is, at least, using his time on a skill, rather than just using screen time to consume media.

These parenting things are really tough. I'm right there in the trenches with you. I hope the ideas here are an encouragement and source of ideas for you and don't make you feel like you are doing things wrong.

[Storygirl]

Would he like to do video editing or something similar for his career? Instead of graduating him early, I'd encourage you to explore the options at your local vocational school. Ours has several programs in the digital arts, app development, etc., and I bet most career centers do, nowadays. The fall is the time when vocational schools hold open houses, visit days, and open their application period for the next school year, so now is the time to look into it. Homeschoolers should be welcome, but, of course, you will need to see what the policies of your area vocational school are. Since he is a junior this year, he may not be eligible, but some schools have senior-only one-year programs. Or could you reclassify him to be a junior next year, to allow him time to complete a two-year program?

In case you are not familiar, he would go to school there for half the day for his program, Then the other half of the day would be for academics at home. This will only work if he wants to do it, but if he gets to do video editing, etc., for half of each school day, he might be interested in the idea.

 

[BusyMom5]

I was also going to ask if you had considered classes in digital design.  I've got a YTer and she spends HOURS each week filming, editing, writing, planning, voice-overs.  One hourva day really isn't that much.  I have been counting part of this as electives.  

[Farrar]

I've seen this a bunch of times.

I would definitely not graduate him late. I think that's the worst thing you can do. 

I don't think cutting back a serious pursuit (regardless of what you think of it, a Youtube channel is a real interest with some real world skills) is a good punishment. I think it'll just foster resentment. He's probably about a year away from actual adulthood. That's not to say there should be no consequences, but think carefully about what that looks like.

Agreed with others that the foremost question here is what are the post-high school plans. I would accelerate those plans or accelerate finding and implementing a path to realistic plans. That could be graduation or not. If community college is the plan, maybe he needs to start sooner with dual enrollment. Like, next semester. If the plan is 4 year college or the military, I'd back up and think about what the route looks like to get there. If the plan is a trade, I might consider the GED if it's available in your state to students before they turn 18.

For homeschooling, I would look at less work with more supervision.

[livetoread]

Personally if I had a kid who was going to need to go the GED route, I'd still give them a high school diploma if they passed a practice GED rather than have them do the actual GED. Having a high school diploma opens more doors, and if they can pass a practice GED, then as far as I'm concerned, they can have a diploma. FWIW, it doesn't sound like the OP's son is there-he has a lot of possible options that others have mentioned-and actually finishing his classes is still preferable for sure. But as a last resort with a kid old enough to graduate who is just not going to get there the traditional way, I'd do it for sure.

[Not_a_Number]

7 hours ago, kbutton said:

I know it's recommended here a lot--The Explosive Child. I don't know if it would fit your situation, but IIRC, it does talk about skills difficult kids need and how to work on those, and it's almost certain that if he has ADHD, he has skills to learn. I kind of took what we needed from it.

I'll second this recommendation. Reading that book has really turned around my relationship with my oppositional kids. (They aren't diagnosed with anything, nor do I think they could be, except anxiety. They are just highly gifted and very intense.) 

I will say I've gotten much more effective at helping my kids in general after I removed most of the power struggles. 

[Soror]

My son's 16 year was very, very rough. Mine was in PS (his choice and he wanted to stay there- we brought up coming home but he saw that as a punishment). Anyway-- him being at PS there were little options, although we tried to get some things changed they don't have the flexibility that we do at home.

I took solace in what had been shared over the years from others that struggled during those years. 

There are no magic answers. It will probably be rough no matter what you do, for some kids it just is. I see now having experienced some of this it is very easy when you're not in the midst of it to say-- well they just need to do xyz--- why don't they do that? Pffft. Some kids have no clue what they want to do. And people push trades like crazy for these kids but of all the ones I know going through this teenage boy angst none are interested in the trades (and I know 3 of the top of head within a small circle). And sometimes the very help they need they aren't open to receiving. You can put things out there, you can try to do things with them, they may or may not take it. Some strive for independence so much that help, in any form, is pushed away. Sometimes kids have to experience all those negatives themselves, sometimes they have to learn the hard way. Try all the things but don't despair that you are just doing things wrong. Sometimes it is just hard.

I agree with (fwiw)

- lowering the expectations for school- accept lower grades- cut back where you can. Consider dropping at semester and going with a less rigorous options. Working alongside him for support.

- doing a big check in with him--- is him doing bad in school a new thing? Sometimes changes are due to hormone and age but sometimes there is something else going on. Depression/anxiety/mental health struggles looks different for different people.

-look for opportunities to develop those skills he's using and enjoys-- is this part of a possible career path or just for fun? If this is not something he wants to do as a career does he have any idea of what he might like? (some do, plenty don't) Does he have any idea of what he sees his life like? 

-consider early graduation- I'd also not do GED except last resort as it does close some doors

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Soror

[TABmom]

No advice, but tons of commiseration. I have one of those kids. He just turned 15 and is a freshman. We stopped homeschooling and sent him to school a couple years ago because there was no way to get him to do work at home. He just steadfastly refused. It’s basically the same at school. The last couple years I could bribe him to turn assignments in by taking him for fast food when he did. This year that is not working. He refused to go to school several times. Now, if he doesn’t go to school and turn in assignments, I have his cell service turned off and I pack up the internet router and take it with me. I don’t know how long that will work. I am absolutely dreading the next 3 1/2 years.

[maize]

I have ADHD and really struggled in high school.

The very last thing I would do is take away/reduce time for a kid's productive passion activity. It will not help! Brains struggling with executive function will struggle more not less if forbidden access to personally motivating activities. He CAN'T just turn the focus and energy he would have put into video editing into studying, that is not the way his brain works. For me, the more time I am able to engage in passion activities, the better I function in the rest of life --and this is true for my ADHD kids as well.

This isn't true for passive sorts of stuff--time spent surfing the web or playing video games or watching movies. Those do have a place, but it is more about emotional regulation around here--and there is such as thing as too much. But DOING something--and editing videos is doing something --is more likely to lead to positive momentum and the ability to do other things.

Is he getting physical activity in on a regular basis? If not I'd try adding that in. And try immediate, positive incentives for studying. Sit with him when he studies and tests.

As you have found, standard parenting practices--and especially negative consequences! do not work with ADHD brains. That's not your fault, and it's not his fault. It drove me crazy as a kid that I was not able to meet expectations --my own or others'--but genuinely wanting to do so didn't give me the skills and mental abilities I needed. I could have benefited from a lot more encouragement and accommodation and scaffolding and a lot less punishment and criticism.

Edited November 3, 2022 by maize

[Janeway]

I would just let him be on a lighter track to graduate and make it more of a trades training now. Then I would graduate him, not with a GED. Lots of kids take video editing and such in high school. There are more careers in video editing and social media than there are in physics.

[EssTreeB]

Ok, my ADHD kiddo is much younger, but medication made a huge difference for us. If you have a diagnosis and are open to it, your pediatrician should be helpful. I've also been watching lots of ADHD Dude on YouTube. I like his straight forward approach to parenting boys with ADHD. He has videos about lying, attitude issues, etc. I also recently started consuming media from additudemag.com for more info. It has been helpful for me to change my approach with my ADHD kiddo. 

 

[SKL]

Does he plan to go to college?  If so, has he taken the SAT/ACT (or practice SAT/ACT) yet?  Would a concerning score on such test(s) motivate him to study harder?

Why's he cheating on algebra 2?  Does he need a different math course?

I think limiting his screen time is probably the wisest choice.  Even if he GEDs it and goes for a job, he isn't going to have the luxury of playing on youtube all day.  At 16 he needs to start living reality.

Another suggestion (if applicable) would be to stop paying for things he wants and tell him to either make it himself or go get a job.  Maybe tax his internet usage if that would potentially motivate.

My kids are college-bound (we hope), and therefore, I incentivize grades with money.  This has limited impact, but it does give them a budget to buy some things they want IFF they do the work.

[Not_a_Number]

12 hours ago, maize said:

I have ADHD and really struggled in high school.

The very last thing I would do is take away/reduce time for a kid's productive passion activity. It will not help! Brains struggling with executive function will struggle more not less if forbidden access to personally motivating activities. He CAN'T just turn the focus and energy he would have put into video editing into studying, that is not the way his brain works. For me, the more time I am able to engage in passion activities, the better I function in the rest of life --and this is true for my ADHD kids as well.

That's very wise, @maize. That's true around here as well. I don't know if we have ADHD or not, but we're all certainly quirky. And yeah, taking away the stuff we're passionate about just takes away momentum. 

 

12 hours ago, maize said:

As you have found, standard parenting practices--and especially negative consequences! do not work with ADHD brains. That's not your fault, and it's not his fault. It drove me crazy as a kid that I was not able to meet expectations --my own or others'--but genuinely wanting to do so didn't give me the skills and mental abilities I needed. I could have benefited from a lot more encouragement and accommodation and scaffolding and a lot less punishment and criticism.

Gosh, I felt so much better when I stopped trying to use negative consequences for anything but the most trivial stuff (where the consequences might actually be enough of an incentive to stop a behavior.) The fact is that consequences only work if a kid is likely to treat them more seriously than whatever the original motivation is. That's very rarely the case with kids who struggle with emotional regulation -- the emotions always win, and then you have a kid who still can't do something, but now also feels guilty and resentful. 

[katilac]

On 11/3/2022 at 10:50 AM, SKL said:

Does he plan to go to college?  If so, has he taken the SAT/ACT (or practice SAT/ACT) yet?  Would a concerning score on such test(s) motivate him to study harder?

Why's he cheating on algebra 2?  Does he need a different math course?

I think limiting his screen time is probably the wisest choice.  Even if he GEDs it and goes for a job, he isn't going to have the luxury of playing on youtube all day.  At 16 he needs to start living reality.

Another suggestion (if applicable) would be to stop paying for things he wants and tell him to either make it himself or go get a job.  Maybe tax his internet usage if that would potentially motivate.

My kids are college-bound (we hope), and therefore, I incentivize grades with money.  This has limited impact, but it does give them a budget to buy some things they want IFF they do the work.

A junior should definitely be taking at least a practice ACT, but it should be done in a matter-of-fact manner bc it's time to do it. If it's presented as a way to prove he's not studying enough, she'll be hoist on her own petard if he gets a high score, lol. 

The OP said he was spending 7 hours a week editing his own videos for YouTube. That hardly equates to "playing on youtube all day." Even if you double that to allow for filming and such, averaging a couple of hours per day on a hobby isn't unreasonable for anyone, even if they aren't doing well in school.