Issues with teen dating (age span)

[Heartstrings]

As the parent of the older boy I might ask him to research it.  Find out the law, is there a Romeo and Juliet exception in your state?   3 years might fall under that. Is there an age where the state won’t intervene unless the parents ask to press charges?   He needs to look up court cases in your state for statutory rape and see what the age differences are and the sentences, look into arrests too, a lot get plead out.  He’s technically an adult and should go into this with open eyes on aaall the possibilities, good and bad. 

I know my best friend in high school dated a much older guy, (I’m thinking she was 15 and he was 22, but I don’t remember exactly) he called and talked over the law in our state with a police officer before they got too serious, I think he told them it was for a college paper.  

I would focus on the legality and possible outcomes there more than the age difference. We know 18/15 is worse than 35/32 but you’ll never convince a love stuck 18 year old on that. It takes life experience that he doesn’t have.  They’ll also inevitably point to a coupe with a bigger age gap that has been successful.  My husband is 10 years older than me.  
 

Honestly I’d empathize with him.  You find the right girl but it’s the wrong time, that really sucks.  It’s painful and feels arbitrary which is the absolute worst.  Encourage him to go write some bad poetry.  
 

I might also ask him to think about HER and possible downsides for her.  Will she find it socially awkward, will there be jealousy issues because they have to be apart so much, will she miss out on high school stuff because of him? What if he leaves for college or work, how much will that hurt her? What if she decides she isn’t ready for sex?  Can he wait years, will he cheat on her, pressure her?  

Edited October 26, 2022 by Heartstrings

[katilac]

54 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I am so sick of political correctness. I kind of hope my boys never date.  It is a horrible minfield. And yes, I have a daughter. Bowing out now. 

Pointing out that "I saw her go after him" does not equal "I know the sex was consensual" is hardly the height of political correctness.

For one thing, it's an absolute fact that the first does not equal the second, so maybe be motivated by a commitment to accuracy instead. 

43 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Please re-read what I wrote: I advise no dating before 16, no serious relationship before 18. I advise not partnering up until after undergrad.

I don’t actually ban anything, but my kids know I don’t  support it either. I have probably lucked out with my older kids in that they are of the same mindset. Youngest may surprise me and give me a run for my money, but she was born with the personality of a cranky 80 year old lady so I am less concerned about her decision making.

 

You said no dating preferably until after undergrad, and that partnering up in the mid-20s would have been better for some people you know. 

I talked about "banning" because you referenced it being hard to ban serious relationships allowing dating, and I specifically stated, "(and I do know you didn't say that you banned them)"

Edited October 26, 2022 by katilac
added a verb, omitted some snark

[Not_a_Number]

I wouldn't waste my breath trying to forbid things that aren't enforceable, I guess. I'd have discomfort with the situation, and like other posters, I'd want to welcome the gf or bf into my home to keep an eye on things. 

What are you worried about specifically, OP? If you're able to say? 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[katilac]

29 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wouldn't waste my breath trying to forbid things that aren't enforceable, 

This sums it up for me. A truly wide age gap would be more concerning and I'm not saying I wouldn't have acted to that, but I wasn't interested in establishing the 38th parallel between 2 years older and 3 years older. 

I think Jane Austen is the reason my kids were never interested in older boys. My oldest failed foreshadowing and was utterly shocked and horrified when she finally realized the direction Emma was going on. Because 37 was "so old, gross!" and marrying someone he met when she was a baby made Mr. Knightley "a total creeper." 

She didn't finish the book, but also only ever dated guys very close in age, so a fair trade. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, katilac said:

This sums it up for me. A truly wide age gap would be more concerning and I'm not saying I wouldn't have acted to that, but I wasn't interested in establishing the 38th parallel between 2 years older and 3 years older. 

I think Jane Austen is the reason my kids were never interested in older boys. My oldest failed foreshadowing and was utterly shocked and horrified when she finally realized the direction Emma was going on. Because 37 was "so old, gross!" and marrying someone he met when she was a baby made Mr. Knightley "a total creeper." 

She didn't finish the book, but also only ever dated guys very close in age, so a fair trade. 

Yeaaah, the thing where he fell in love with her when she was a teen was definitely a bit of an eyebrow-raiser for me. Culture changes, I know, I know, but still. 

I did start dating DH when I was 23 and he was 31, which was just baaarely on the right side of acceptable, so I suppose I understand both the appeal of older guys and also the potential pitfalls. 

[Emba]

Romeo and Juliet laws in my state are such that if the 18 yr old became 19 before the 15 year old became 16, it could be a big problem. 

at that age, forbidding a relationship can be impossible to enforce, so I wouldn’t forbid it, and would open my home as a place to spend time together, but not alone in bedrooms. But given my own pre-existing attitude about driving around dating kids who do not yet have a driver’s license, I wouldn’t be making many extra trips to facilitate the relationship. So taking kid to a school activity where they’ll see each other, which I was going to take kid to anyway, sure. Inviting date to an event our family was already going to, picking them up in the way or meeting them there, sure. But taking kid to pick up date and dropping them off at the movies or whatever, then coming back for them later, probably not happening, especially if the relationship makes me nervous.

DD 16 is dating a boy who just turned 18. They live a 30 minute drive from each other, and when they started dating, neither had a driver’s license. So I’ve had to work out exactly how much I’m willing to facilitate, and really it isn’t much. Dating is an activity for more mature teens (being as poor choices could end up in parenthood), and if mine don’t have the gas money or legal ability to drive, I figure they really aren’t ready for “real”dating. So far their relationship has been very much based around texting/phone calls and attending school activities together, though he is homeschooled.

[TexasProud]

Yeah, definitely research the laws because the age of consent for Texas is 17.

The age of consent in Texas is 17 years of age. This means anyone who is 16 or younger cannot legally consent to sexual intercourse. It does not matter that they agreed to have sex or even if they initiated the encounter. Anyone who has sex with someone who is under 17 can be charged with a crime.

[marbel]

11 hours ago, katilac said:

Maybe it's hard to ban a serious relationship when teens are dating, but it's also quite hard to ban a serious relationship when teens are not dating. If teens have the chance to see and/or talk to each other pretty regularly, they can develop a serious relationship even if they only do group activities and never a stereotypical 'date.'

Yes. This tracks with one of my kids, though there was no concern about age differences or thoughts of banning anything. Distance and lack of cars/drivers licenses for a while delayed actual dating for a couple years after they met at summer camp. 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

12 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I am not a fan, at all.

Re: potential legal issues, my state has an age of consent law.  You cannot consent if you are not 18. The end. Beyond that, it is rape or sodomy (depending on the act) in the third degree (even if the younger party knowingly and willingly participated in whatever occurred) to have intercourse with a person who is under 16.

I am really not a fan of dating before 16, nor am I a fan of any serious relationship until at least 18, and preferably until after undergrad.  It's really hard to allow dating and then ban "serious relationships"---but we have a lot of discussion from before adolescence about what our "jobs" are as teens and young adults. Your job as a teen, besides getting a good education, includes discovering who you are and putting a solid foundation under yourself.  Trying to become a partner of any sort with someone who is going through the same process just isn't a great idea.

I look at my own extended family and I can show relatives who accidentally impregnated others when they themselves were also teens and how that has shaped their entire life course.  Leave the potential for parenthood for when you are capable of taking on that responsibility, iykwim.....and the corollary of that....most of us have inherent within us a desire to bond with another....don't go stirring up serious feelings for another when you are a teen either.  I have nieces and nephews who have changed educational and work plans over high school relationships--curtailing their lives because their partner doesn't want to relocate for uni and they don't want to leave them behind. I can't help but think that they would have been in a better position if they had waited to partner up until they were in their mid-20s. 

Life is hard, man. If you aren't a solid income earner in today's world, you aren't able to live securely (at least in the US) with adequate access to housing, healthcare, or other necessaries. 

I'm sure I'm going to get jumped on by those saying a few dates does not equal a serious relationship, but I think once the cattle has left the chute, it's hard to put it back in. 

I’m with you on most of this. I’ve not made a hard and fast rule about it (because I know that’s pointless and likely to backfire), but I have STRONGLY encouraged my DC to wait until they are both 18 AND finished with high school to be in a serious relationship. And around here that doesn’t seem to be any such thing as a casual dating relationship. I have seen first hand too many girls who get married within weeks of turning 18. They are far too distracted with wedding planning and being in love to put much effort into finishing high school. They may “finish”, but not well. (And some of these girls were homeschooled and they switch to “life skills” at the end or decide they’re suddenly “graduated” early.) I’ve also seen first hand young men who get into trouble when a relationship with a younger girl ends badly. Often the girls and boys have a similar maturity and brain development (since male brains tend to develop more slowly), and the couple is pretty evenly matched. But when the relationship ends and the girl is broken-hearted she suddenly had no idea what she was doing simply because of her age. (This is based off of extensive conversations, not just observations.) My DH has also seen upset parents who decide to go after the young man. Maybe their daughter really was naïve and taken advantage of, but maybe the 19yo young man was just as clueless and naïve. My DS is turning 13 next week but has the maturity of a 9 or 10 year old girl. I don’t see that “age gap” suddenly disappearing over the next few years. So for the safety of both my son and my daughters, I really hope they wait until they and their partners are of legal age and have a legitimate high school diploma before they jump into a serious relationship. 

[ktgrok]

your 18 yr old son needs to realize that if she sends him a sexy photo he can be charged with child pornography, and at 18 he'd be charged as an adult. It could put him on the sex offender registry for life, ruin job opportunities for the rest of his life, etc. Even if the girl would never ever say something to the cops, one of her friends - maybe a jealous classmate - or a parent or sibling could do so. 

[Kassia]

39 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

your 18 yr old son needs to realize that if she sends him a sexy photo he can be charged with child pornography, and at 18 he'd be charged as an adult. It could put him on the sex offender registry for life, ruin job opportunities for the rest of his life, etc. Even if the girl would never ever say something to the cops, one of her friends - maybe a jealous classmate - or a parent or sibling could do so. 

Yes, this is something I went over with my ds when he was in this situation.  Even though his gf was of legal age to consent, any sexting/photos could get him into serious trouble.  

[Murphy101]

In our house the older young man was told there would be zero dating before she turned 16.  He waited 10 months to ask her on a date.  Now to be clear, they see each other in at church events 2-3 times a week. So it’s not like he could never see her, he just couldn’t date her. I have no obvious complaints about him as a person or her either. But I think regardless 16 is a good hard rule here.

My sons were told the same and once they graduated high school, we point blank told them the easiest way to avoid jail bait issues is to just not date girls in high school at all.

[Scarlett]

I find interesting the concept not for bidding something that you cannot enforce. I am of the mind set teens need guidance. I think a teen who is on the fence about an issue like this could definitely be swayed to refrain if his parents forbid it. But if those same parents say to the kid ‘I think this is a bad idea but I will not forbid it’ manykids on the fence will take that as permission. 

I do agree that there are some teens/humans who will never listen to reason or follow rules.
 

But in my own parenting I have at least made my position perfectly clear. If I had an 18-year-old son wanting to date a 15-year-old that would be a hard no for me if he lived in my home.

And without giving any details I can tell you that we did have this almost exact situation— we said this will not happen. Thankfully the girls parents were on board with not allowing the relationship. But if they had been OK with it and our son continued he would’ve found himself another place to live.

[Storygirl]

Some people have mentioned that they would like more specific information about the situation. We have a lot of backstory that I will not go into, out of respect for DS's privacy, but we have layers and layers of concern, based on DS's past relationship history, his own personality and maturity and issues that he struggles with, what we know about the girl in question, and the legal issues.

I appreciate the responses so far. We are sorting out how to respond to the situation. I'll add a few more details, but know that there is a LOT that I am not going to go into, so these are just a FEW layers of the problem.

PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE THESE DETAILS

*Personal details deleted*

The various opinions of the Hive are helpful to sort through, though, of course, we have to figure it out for ourselves in the end.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Storygirl

[BusyMom5]

Seeing your update, I would stick with no dating until both parties are over age 16.  That means no being alone anywhere.  If they wish to hang out as friends only at your house, I'd allow that.  I would not allow them to hang out at her house, seeing as how you question the parents desire to supervise.  Hoping this all blows over for you soon!  

 

[sheryl]

Yes to Scarlett's reply.  Agree!!  

[teachermom2834]

@Storygirl

Hugs for you. I don’t really have any specific advice that you haven’t already thought through. I just want to encourage you and say that some kids are just hard. And don’t listen to reason. Or think things through. I really commend you for staying in there and doing the hard work guiding your child and parenting him and trying to protect him even though he’s a handful. 
 

I hope you get through this bump in the road without too much drama and your ds makes some jumps in maturity soon. Best wishes to you.

[Jaybee]

6 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

@Storygirl

Hugs for you. I don’t really have any specific advice that you haven’t already thought through. I just want to encourage you and say that some kids are just hard. And don’t listen to reason. Or think things through. I really commend you for staying in there and doing the hard work guiding your child and parenting him and trying to protect him even though he’s a handful. 
 

I hope you get through this bump in the road without too much drama and your ds makes some jumps in maturity soon. Best wishes to you.

Same here. 

[Lawyer&Mom]

I said it was case specific, and this doesn’t sound like a good case.  In my situation *I* was the Autistic one, and a *major* rule follower.  When I said I wasn’t going to have sex, out of fear for the consequences, I meant it!  Following rules for me was easy, navigating emotional boundaries was not.  I was very eager for social acceptance and fell hard for my romantic interests.  Ugh, it’s so hard.

[73349]

I might ask Mr. 18 what he hopes for in a relationship and why Miss 15 appears to be a match for that, and what he thinks Miss 15 hopes for in a relationship and why he feels he might be a match for that.

Is he going to graduate at the end of the school year? Would he really expect, as an adult, to date a high school student?

DH's parents, when he was Mr. 18, were prepared to put the brakes on his dating me because I looked quite a bit younger, but I was in the same grade, so they were okay. DS is homeschooled and will likely not graduate until he's 19; he's very safety-conscious, so I hope that will help with relationship choices.

Edited October 26, 2022 by 73349

[skimomma]

With your update, I would be far more concerned.  I deleted my previous post to protect the privacy of my family but I was one that would not forbid a relationship due to age alone.  Mostly because I have had direct experience with it, recognized the futility of rules on this topic, and because my experience included open discussion between all parties over the entire time of the relationships.  What you are describing is IMO not really an age difference question.  The issues you are grappling with could be exasperated by age difference but the problems remain even if age was not a factor.  Also, I don't know your family situation, but once someone is over 18, you really can't do much aside from open dialog and refusing services like transportation, money, WIFI, housing, etc......which are likely to have little effect and might even backfire.

There might be little you can do and it appears the girl's parents are also not going to engage.  In your shoes, after warning about legal risks, which you have done, I would do anything in your power to focus as much of the relationship on your turf.  Offer to host dates, offer to pick up and drop off the girlfriend, make it difficult to facilitate dates in other locations.  There are still risks but what is the alternative?  Does you ds respect parental boundaries now that he is over 18?  Is your only currency financial/housing support?  You would have to think really hard about whether or not you want to go with the nuclear option over what might be a very temporary relationship.  My guess is that if you make a big deal out of it, your ds might choose to dig in, resulting in the relationships lasting much longer than it would have otherwise.

 

 

[Storygirl]

A couple of additional facts.

The age of consent in our state is 16.

Please don't quote the info below.

*Personal details deleted*

He has not wanted to ask her to our house yet, so he only sees her at school in the halls or at the school football game.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Storygirl

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

We have talked ad nauseum about the age of consent. He knows. He doesn't care. He has ASD and has trouble seeing perspectives that are not his own, so I think the idea of being arrested is not exactly real to him, if that makes sense. I don't think he can envision it.

Would he possibly see the potential better by reading about it happening to other people? One of mine was the 18yo in this situation and we were very specific in what the laws and risks were. We had reasons in our particular circumstance to feel pretty safe about it (not the least because dc was more worried about running on the wrong side of things than we were), but it was still a worry because the stakes are so high. I read some news stories about kids getting arrested after the relationship ended or after the other kid’s parents found out, and that made it very real (and scary!)

In any case, sharing some actual news stories of boys his age going to jail for this might help him see it as an actual risk and not just hysteria? (The mug shots where they look like boys and not men might be especially relatable.) 

[SKL]

Do you have legal rights over your son's movements (based on ASD disability or other reason)?

I am not sure how you enforce a no dating relationship rule with an adult, other than never letting her into your house ... but your house seems likely to be the safest place for them to meet (assuming a parent can supervise).

I agree with spending lots of time trying to make him see the legal and emotional dangers.

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I find interesting the concept not for bidding something that you cannot enforce. I am of the mind set teens need guidance. I think a teen who is on the fence about an issue like this could definitely be swayed to refrain if his parents forbid it. But if those same parents say to the kid ‘I think this is a bad idea but I will not forbid it’ manykids on the fence will take that as permission. 

I do agree that there are some teens/humans who will never listen to reason or follow rules.
 

But in my own parenting I have at least made my position perfectly clear. If I had an 18-year-old son wanting to date a 15-year-old that would be a hard no for me if he lived in my home.

And without giving any details I can tell you that we did have this almost exact situation— we said this will not happen. Thankfully the girls parents were on board with not allowing the relationship. But if they had been OK with it and our son continued he would’ve found himself another place to live.

I think for most of us, having an 18 yr old doing something dumb AND living on their own with no parental support or guidance is not a better plan than having them doing something dumb but with us there to remind them how dumb it is, and help them if they do get into trouble. Seems kicking them out would just give them more room to get into even more trouble - more time alone, less ability to handle things, etc. Not sure how that is a better outcome?? Or even one I'd be willing to risk?

None of us said they would condone them being alone together, but simply were acknowledging the reality that we cannot forbid how someone feels. And that if they are in the same friend group and go to the same school we can't forbid them ever seeing each other. We CAN say they can't be alone together, go on dates one on one, etc. But how on earth does one forbid them to not see each other at school and express feelings? We can't. And kicking them out of the house if they do doesn't make anything better. 

We can simply guide them - explain how this could go badly, offer our greater experience of the world and why this is a bad idea, establish boundaries that are actually enforceable, etc. 

[Storygirl]

No quoting please.

*personal details deleted*

Edited October 26, 2022 by Storygirl

[Scarlett]

27 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I think for most of us, having an 18 yr old doing something dumb AND living on their own with no parental support or guidance is not a better plan than having them doing something dumb but with us there to remind them how dumb it is, and help them if they do get into trouble. Seems kicking them out would just give them more room to get into even more trouble - more time alone, less ability to handle things, etc. Not sure how that is a better outcome?? Or even one I'd be willing to risk?

None of us said they would condone them being alone together, but simply were acknowledging the reality that we cannot forbid how someone feels. And that if they are in the same friend group and go to the same school we can't forbid them ever seeing each other. We CAN say they can't be alone together, go on dates one on one, etc. But how on earth does one forbid them to not see each other at school and express feelings? We can't. And kicking them out of the house if they do doesn't make anything better. 

We can simply guide them - explain how this could go badly, offer our greater experience of the world and why this is a bad idea, establish boundaries that are actually enforceable, etc. 

In our situation he did still see her as in lay eyes on her but he knew he could not speak to her. No texting either.  Again this was easier because her parents were against it as well. When you use the phrase ‘kick them out’, it creates a very negative feeling.  Very Important House rules exist for a reason and if he is going to defy us on one of the few lines in the sand we drew then yes there would be a calm and loving discussion—- you are an adult and we cannot stop you from defying us but we will not allow it in our home. 
 

Sounds like things are more complicated in OPs case but even still she IS using what tools she has to attempt to reign his impulsive behavior in. 

[Scarlett]

@Storygirl just to be clear, I was not suggesting you kick him out. I was speaking to the larger idea of thinking that we cannot or should not forbid something that we cannot enforce. I think we absolutely as parents can forbid things that we cannot enforce. At the very least we will not be complicit in their bad decision making if they do go on to defy us. 
 

Since you have already told him he cannot date someone under age 16 is there a consequence for his continuing to be involved with her?

[prairiewindmomma]

Can we big picture for a minute and say that the bigger issues for him are: adulthood, impulsivity, and decision making? The context of this current problem is dating a minor, but I am going to .02 that you are going to see different variations of this popping up in the next several years with re: to other transition to adulthood issues.

I’m going to point you towards therapy, for all of you together, and separately, and specifically suggest you find someone who specializes in teens and young adults with autism. They are out there. 
 

I am going to also suggest that you do some explicit (in the autism sense) teaching on a variety of topics including consent, safe sex, stages of relationship formation, red flags in a relationship, etc. If you haven’t had very open and frank conversations repeatedly on all of this, it’s well past time. 

[Storygirl]

Edited for privacy

Edited December 5, 2022 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

On 10/26/2022 at 3:18 PM, Scarlett said:

@Storygirl just to be clear, I was not suggesting you kick him out. I was speaking to the larger idea of thinking that we cannot or should not forbid something that we cannot enforce. I think we absolutely as parents can forbid things that we cannot enforce. At the very least we will not be complicit in their bad decision making if they do go on to defy us. 
 

Since you have already told him he cannot date someone under age 16 is there a consequence for his continuing to be involved with her?

DH and I are still working through this.

Edited for privacy

Edited December 5, 2022 by Storygirl

[teachermom2834]

10 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I think it makes sense. You really are limited to how much you can control his actions and you cannot police his every movement and communication and even if you could it would drive you to madness. But drawing a line at personally facilitating it is reasonable morally and legally (even if it is not to an 18 yo with questionable judgement). 
 

You can only do so much but you can do that. 
 

sorry didn’t mean to quote

Edited October 26, 2022 by teachermom2834

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

In our situation he did still see her as in lay eyes on her but he knew he could not speak to her. No texting either.  Again this was easier because her parents were against it as well. When you use the phrase ‘kick them out’, it creates a very negative feeling.  Very Important House rules exist for a reason and if he is going to defy us on one of the few lines in the sand we drew then yes there would be a calm and loving discussion—- you are an adult and we cannot stop you from defying us but we will not allow it in our home. 
 

Sounds like things are more complicated in OPs case but even still she IS using what tools she has to attempt to reign his impulsive behavior in. 

I think making it so saying hi in the hallway or a conversation in the school cafeteria has the same consequence as getting her pregnant is unwise. I also think it is impossible to know if he is talking to her at school, or at group events like football games, or church youth group or whatever. So making a rule I can't know if they are following - knowing it will damage the relationship - would be unwise in my opinion. 

[Murphy101]

27 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

DH and I are still working through this. I have decided that I am not comfortable facilitating a relationship between a legal adult and a 15 year old. I'm just not. I can't prevent them from seeing each other at school or meeting at school events like football games. But I will not drive him anywhere to meet her in person while she is under age 16. This is not a consequence, per se, but it feels like one to DS, because it is restrictive; he can't go, if I won't drive him. Otherwise, we are still discussing how to handle it.

This is what I would do too.  I can’t stop everything but I can absolutely refuse to facilitate or assist in any manner. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

This is what I would do too.  I can’t stop everything but I can absolutely refuse to facilitate or assist in any manner. 

Same. 

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

DH and I are still working through this. I have decided that I am not comfortable facilitating a relationship between a legal adult and a 15 year old. I'm just not. I can't prevent them from seeing each other at school or meeting at school events like football games. But I will not drive him anywhere to meet her in person while she is under age 16. This is not a consequence, per se, but it feels like one to DS, because it is restrictive; he can't go, if I won't drive him. Otherwise, we are still discussing how to handle it.

The next step is deciding what you will do if a friend offers to drive him to her, or her parents offer the ride.  The next is, will you continue to drive him to his mall meet ups.  Will you start staying at the mall to make sure he isn’t seeing her there or leaving, or is it better to just stop doing those?  Which circles back to what if his friends pick him up.  
 

Hopefully this will all blow over.  If you can get passed this bump, you should have an easier time once he graduates and is no longer in daily contact with high school kids, especially if you can push him towards a job that doesn’t have many teens working there.  
 

[annandatje]

An age difference of three years would not rattle me.  As long as they are kind  and respectful to each other, I would support relationship. 

[KSera]

26 minutes ago, annandatje said:

An age difference of three years would not rattle me.  As long as they are kind  and respectful to each other, I would support relationship. 

As long as everyone clearly understands that the age of consent law doesn’t depend on how kind and respectful they are to each other. They can arrest and jail someone no matter how sweet and loving the relationship. 

[Not_a_Number]

10 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I find interesting the concept not for bidding something that you cannot enforce. I am of the mind set teens need guidance. I think a teen who is on the fence about an issue like this could definitely be swayed to refrain if his parents forbid it. But if those same parents say to the kid ‘I think this is a bad idea but I will not forbid it’ manykids on the fence will take that as permission. 

I don't know about your kids, but I've found the exact opposite. Attempting to forbid things to my kids will make them incredibly resentful and will make them unlikely to comply except at the very most while I'm watching and in a very "letter of the law" kind of way. Talking to then openly is much more likely to actually convince them.

The question for me is always whether I can actually control something with my own actions. For instance, my kids are "forbidden" from drinking Coke in the house because... we don't have any Coke in the house! (And they are still too little to go out and buy their own.) So I absolutely exert control here, but the key point is that I can exert control by what I do, not by what they do. 

In this situation, the OP would have to trust her DS to listen to her forbidding him. And she would also lose quite a lot of leverage by coming down so hard on him. It's POSSIBLE she can dissuade him from dating this girl, but it'll be at a heavy cost.

Of course, I don't know the OP's son. I'm not certain. But I know how it'd play out for us. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

5 hours ago, Storygirl said:

DH and I are still working through this. I have decided that I am not comfortable facilitating a relationship between a legal adult and a 15 year old. I'm just not. I can't prevent them from seeing each other at school or meeting at school events like football games. But I will not drive him anywhere to meet her in person while she is under age 16. This is not a consequence, per se, but it feels like one to DS, because it is restrictive; he can't go, if I won't drive him. Otherwise, we are still discussing how to handle it.

Here's a thought experiment for you. Is that actually how you feel yourself, or is this an attempt to control what he does? I am personally much more effective if I genuinely figure out what I am and am not comfortable with and do not try to exert pressure. 

I often can't tell the difference between which is which without quite a bit of soul searching and experimenting. I tend to feel much more at peace about things that I'm not trying to use to change what other people do, though. Because ultimately, those things aren't affected by their actions. I know I've done my best and that's enough. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't know about your kids, but I've found the exact opposite. Attempting to forbid things to my kids will make them incredibly resentful and will make them unlikely to comply. Talking to then openly is much more likely to actually convince them 

Well. Parenting is not a democracy. Nor should it be a dictatorship.  I don’t know if you have the idea I am talking about ruling with an iron fist, but I am not.  One can be a loving and thoughtful parent who discusses reasons why things should be certain ways and ask for input from the children ….and there will still be times there has to be certain guidelines and house rules and generally every parent has a line in the sand about one issue or another.

I had a kid who was an extreme debater.  He never took no for an answer and it was quite exhausting,  he is the type of kid who caused the phrase ‘because I said so’ to come into existence. 
 

I think it is a problem that when faced with rules a child would become incredibly resentful and refuse to comply.  Rules are a part of living in a civilized society.  It is best we teach our children to realize that. 

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Here's a thought experiment for you. Is that actually how you feel yourself, or is this an attempt to control what he does? I am personally much more effective if I genuinely figure out what I am and am not comfortable with and do not try to exert pressure. 

I often can't tell the difference between which is which without quite a bit of soul searching and experimenting. I tend to feel much more at peace about things that I'm not trying to use to change what other people do, though. Because ultimately, those things aren't affected by their actions. I know I've done my best and that's enough. 

I am quite certain if she could control him not risking jail time for a 15 year old girl she would do so.  Sometimes the right thing is all tied up with what one actually wants. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Well. Parenting is not a democracy. Nor should it be a dictatorship.  I don’t know if you have the idea I am talking about ruling with an iron fist, but I am not.  One can be a loving and thoughtful parent who discusses reasons why things should be certain ways and ask for input from the children ….and there will still be times there has to be certain guidelines and house rules and generally every parent has a line in the sand about one issue or another.

I had a kid who was an extreme debater.  He never took no for an answer and it was quite exhausting,  he is the type of kid who caused the phrase ‘because I said so’ to come into existence. 
 

I think it is a problem that when faced with rules a child would become incredibly resentful and refuse to comply.  Rules are a part of living in a civilized society.  It is best we teach our children to realize that. 

Oh, it's a problem. It's a severe problem! It was really hard on our family. 

But I don't know a way to MAKE a child comply. What do I do if a kid just... doesn't do what they are told? What happens next? Or if they do it eventually in the most minimal possible way but the tension in the house is unbearable? I never did figure out a way to impose my will on another human being, and it wasn't for lack of trying. 

I felt so much better when I stopped trying to MAKE people do things. And ironically, I got my way about 5 times as often. I didn't forget about my needs. I just centered them on me instead of other people. And that allowed people to listen.

The "Explosive Child" book is really great for that. I really owe the boardies many thanks for suggesting it to me. I read it and I argued with it and I read it and I scoffed, but eventually it made it through my thick skull, and it really helped. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I am quite certain if she could control him not risking jail time for a 15 year old girl she would do so.  Sometimes the right thing is all tied up with what one actually wants. 

Yes. I'm sure, too. And in her situation, if this was something I could control, I may very well control it. 

The problem is that I don't think she can. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Not_a_Number

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, it's a problem. It's a severe problem! It was really hard on our family. 

But I don't know a way to MAKE a child comply. What do I do if a kid just... doesn't do what they are told? What happens next? Or if they do it eventually but the tension in the house is unbearable? I never did figure out a way to impose my will on another human being, and it wasn't for lack of trying. 

I felt so much better when I stopped trying to make people. And ironically, I got my way about 5 times as often. I didn't forget about my needs. I just centered them on me instead of other people. And that allowed people to listen.

The "Explosive Child" book is really great for that. I really owe the boardies many thanks for suggesting it to me. I read it and I argued with it and I read it and I scoffed, but eventually it made it through my thick skull, and it really helped. 

When dealing with younger kids there are things that help them manage their feelings when they don’t get their way.  That is part of the process of raising them to be adults who realize sometimes they don’t get their way.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Scarlett said:

When dealing with younger kids there are things that help them manage their feelings when they don’t get their way.  That is part of the process of raising them to be adults who realize sometimes they don’t get their way.  

Right. I can be firm about things I'm not giving them. But I can't be firm about things they are supposed to do when I ask.

I can help them manage the reaction when I say "We aren't watching a movie today." That's something I can control (at least for now, with young kids.) But there's nothing I can when what I need from them, say, is to stop lying to me, or to do their work well. 

Can you feel the difference? 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes. I'm sure, too. And in her situation, if this was something I could control, I may very well control it. 

The problem is that I don't think she can. 

 But she can refuse to facilitate such a relationship.  And she can be very firm in her position about how dangerous it is.  And with an 18 year old who is immature she can keep reminding him of this fairly often so that he has the voice of reason in his head.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Scarlett said:

 But she can refuse to facilitate such a relationship.  And she can be very firm in her position about how dangerous it is.  And with an 18 year old who is immature she can keep reminding him of this fairly often so that he has the voice of reason in his head.  

She can be firm in her position without forbidding it. 

With my kids, forbidding would backfire. Stating my position would not. 

I would think that forbidding will make it much less likely that he listens if she does remind him, frankly. 

[Scarlett]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Right. I can be firm about things I'm not giving them. But I can't be firm about things they are supposed to do when I ask.

I can help them manage the reaction when I say "We aren't watching a movie today." That's something I can control (at least for now, with young kids.) But there's nothing I can when what I need from them, say, is to stop lying to me, or to do their work well. 

Can you feel the difference? 

I learned years ago to not give a small child a chance to lie.  As far as doing work ‘well’….that is pretty subjective.  If they refuse to do the work there can be consequences….but it is true you can’t force a lot of things.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I learned years ago to not give a small child a chance to lie.  As far as doing work ‘well’….that is pretty subjective.  If they refuse to do the work there can be consequences….but it is true you can’t force a lot of things.  

I really don't have anything to add. I've reported what our (frankly painful) experience was and I don't want to derail the thread any more than I have already. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Not_a_Number