Give me your best arguments either for or against

[Moose]

As a Canadian, we've had legalized cannabis use for about 4 years now. One amazing benefit is that now, there are all these options to get high quality cannabis products that contain minimal amounts of THC, or no THC at all. My husband suffers from severe anxiety. In the past, it was so bad that he could not leave his bedroom for months, and ended up losing his job. He's been on anti-anxiety meds for a long time, but he was still needing to take Lorazepam often for panic attacks. We did our research and were able to easily buy some soft capsules that are high in CBD, and have no THC. Before legalization, this stuff would only be available to cancer patients. It's been helping my husband immensely. 

There will always be those who abuse a substance, just like those who abuse alcohol. Cannabis has always been easy to find for those looking for it. But now, you know what you are getting. You know the dosage, you know that it's safe. 

[Faith-manor]

10 minutes ago, EKS said:

As far as I know, it is perfectly legal to drink window cleaner.

Right. That isn't actually illegal. You can swallow rat poison, lye, whatever. We don't have laws against possessing those things. Killing yourself by alcohol poisoning is not illegal. The key is you don't physically harm or kill someone else when you do it. You can legally traumatize the hell out of them with your actions so long as they aren't considered assault. Our legal system is that things are legal until a law is passed to make them illegal. So it isn't a valid argument.

Alcohol abuse is WAY worse than marijuana use. Prohibition gave us nothing but a thriving mafia. The war on drugs gave us druglords among the richest individuals in the world, guerrilla wars, ungodly amounts of violence, and non-violent addicts locked up without medical/mental health treatment while rapists and abusers have run free. Meanwhile, alcohol and cigarettes and plenty of other far worse substances remain legal, and easily accessible. 

[Farrar]

I think we all know the way the enforcement works for drugs in the US is super racist. Even if you think people shouldn't be using pot, I have yet to see any remedy mentioned in this thread for the immense harm done to marginalized communities if it continues to be criminalized. "The justice system should just be less racist in their enforcement" is not a realistic suggestion. And the harm done from pot use itself... just pales in comparison to the harm from enforcement in these communities. I think you can make an argument that the harm from many other drugs is so great and the risk so dangerous that any measures of decriminalization are a greater harm and therefore we have to focus on reform of the system. But pot? I mean, I just think this argument was lost a long time ago. Prohibition isn't working and it's only making it worse.

[MEmama]

13 minutes ago, Moose said:

As a Canadian, we've had legalized cannabis use for about 4 years now. One amazing benefit is that now, there are all these options to get high quality cannabis products that contain minimal amounts of THC, or no THC at all. My husband suffers from severe anxiety. In the past, it was so bad that he could not leave his bedroom for months, and ended up losing his job. He's been on anti-anxiety meds for a long time, but he was still needing to take Lorazepam often for panic attacks. We did our research and were able to easily buy some soft capsules that are high in CBD, and have no THC. Before legalization, this stuff would only be available to cancer patients. It's been helping my husband immensely. 

There will always be those who abuse a substance, just like those who abuse alcohol. Cannabis has always been easy to find for those looking for it. But now, you know what you are getting. You know the dosage, you know that it's safe. 

CBD is different from cannabis and is legally available (to varying degrees) in the remaining states that haven’t yet legalized pot because it doesn’t contain (detectable enough amounts of) THC. 
 

Edited October 24, 2022 by MEmama

[Moose]

4 minutes ago, MEmama said:

CBD is different from cannabis and is legally available (to varying degrees) in the remaining states that haven’t yet legalized pot because it doesn’t contain (detectable enough amounts of) THC. 
 

Ah, gotcha. That was not the case here in Canada. 

[BlsdMama]

23 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

But then you should want to raise the drinking and smoking ages, too. Right?  
And the military age, for that matter. Dead soldiers aren’t functional young adults, either.

Though I wonder what that even means. I wasn’t functional as a young adult? This is news to me.

I fail to see the correlation.
You smoke pot and you definitely have a sink into the couch feeling that lasts hours, without "over indulging." Young adult drinking patterns are often weekends only.  Smoking a cigarette at all does not have this after effect - said as a former smoker in my teens.
I can see the correlation to video gaming but that snarky comment on my behalf is really just inciting more... and the soldier comment was just BS but surely you knew that. 

But I'm feeling incapable of being not snarky about your comments, so I'm walking away with just saying that.

[Dmmetler]

If sales are illegal, that means you can’t restrict as far as dosage, packaging, etc. I’d rather see it legal and regulated than “illegal, but we won’t charge you with possession”. 

[Carrie12345]

18 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I fail to see the correlation.
You smoke pot and you definitely have a sink into the couch feeling that lasts hours, without "over indulging." Young adult drinking patterns are often weekends only.  Smoking a cigarette at all does not have this after effect - said as a former smoker in my teens.
I can see the correlation to video gaming but that snarky comment on my behalf is really just inciting more... and the soldier comment was just BS but surely you knew that. 

But I'm feeling incapable of being not snarky about your comments, so I'm walking away with just saying that.

I know I’m not the greatest forum communicator, so the disconnect could be on my end, but I don’t understand this in response to my post.

Personally, I never sunk into a couch for hours on pot, but your experience might be different. 

[EKS]

54 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

If sales are illegal, that means you can’t restrict as far as dosage, packaging, etc. I’d rather see it legal and regulated than “illegal, but we won’t charge you with possession”. 

There is also evidence that it is more difficult for underage folks to get legal substances than illegal ones.  I know that this was my experience as an underage person.  Once I "knew a guy" with ties to the illicit drug market, it was far easier to get any illegal substance I wanted than it was to get alcohol.

And this is why marijuana is considered a "gateway" drug.  It isn't because of its properties as a drug--its because once you know how to access the illicit drug market, you can access anything.

So, all of this is to say that I agree--legal and regulated, but not so regulated (and expensive) that it drives it back into the illicit drug market.

Edited October 24, 2022 by EKS

[catz]

Racism in enforcement is a huge issue.  There are a number of documentaries out there about the history of the war on drugs.  I highly recommend seeking one out if you haven't really gotten the full history of how it started and how it continues to be enforced to this day.  I am SO far from ok  with this.  

So that said, we also know a young man who started using to self treat anxiety (or this was the justification) and honestly, he is a mess.  He was a smart and focused high schooler and now he's a young adult that works intermittently and can hardly string words together coherently.  We have real issues with mental health care and getting help for addiction issues.

So I absolutely do not want to see pot users jailed.  I'd also rather see some sort of regulation and talk about how to educate young people and discourage usage in those still developing their brains.  For me, a lot of issues come back to the garbage health care system in the US and how inaccessible it is to huge portions of our population.  

 

[pinball]

47 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Right. That isn't actually illegal. You can swallow rat poison, lye, whatever. We don't have laws against possessing those things. Killing yourself by alcohol poisoning is not illegal. The key is you don't physically harm or kill someone else when you do it. You can legally traumatize the hell out of them with your actions so long as they aren't considered assault. Our legal system is that things are legal until a law is passed to make them illegal. So it isn't a valid argument.

Alcohol abuse is WAY worse than marijuana use. Prohibition gave us nothing but a thriving mafia. The war on drugs gave us druglords among the richest individuals in the world, guerrilla wars, ungodly amounts of violence, and non-violent addicts locked up without medical/mental health treatment while rapists and abusers have run free. Meanwhile, alcohol and cigarettes and plenty of other far worse substances remain legal, and easily accessible. 

Thus far this (possibly) is true bc alcohol use is legal and easily available 

No one knows if it will remain true once mj use becomes as widespread & accessible.

[pinball]

5 minutes ago, EKS said:

There is also evidence that it is more difficult for underage folks to get legal substances than legal ones.  I know that this was my experience as an underage person.  Once I "knew a guy" with ties to the illicit drug market, it was far easier to get any illegal substance I wanted than it was to get alcohol.

And this is why marijuana is considered a "gateway" drug.  It isn't because of its properties as a drug--its because once you know how to access the illicit drug market, you can access anything.

So, all of this is to say that I agree--legal and regulated, but not so regulated (and expensive) that it drives it back into the illicit drug market.

FYI Typo in first sentence

[EKS]

32 minutes ago, pinball said:

FYI Typo in first sentence

Corrected it--thank you!

[KSera]

4 hours ago, Eos said:

Sideways: the argument that it's a good source of tax revenue is one I disagree with on principle.  I don't think we as a society should fund our needs by taxing things like pot, alcohol, or lottery sales that can lead to addiction or allow people to escape reality.  Tax the rich.

I’ve always had an issue with this as well. I know states depend on alcohol taxes and lottery taxes and the like to fund their budgets at this point, but it feels like a bad idea to set up a system that relies on some people to do things that are harmful to them in order for the state to fund necessary services. And the more people drink or smoke or gamble, the more money the state brings in (I have less issue with the gambling part than the substance abuse part—I don’t think it does harm on anywhere near the same scale). I have no answer for how to replace that funding, but I don’t expect it has helped states be motivated to reduce alcohol use and abuse when it’s so lucrative to the state. Same goes for marijuana in those states where it is legal.
 

i’m surprised there are not more people here who have experienced a young person whose life went off the rails when they started using marijuana and no longer wanted to do anything else. It’s not going to happen to everyone who uses it, probably only a minority, but it’s still a pretty common phenomenon. My dh has pretty negative feelings about pot just from being a child of hippies. Too much time when parents were high with friends which was unpleasant for a young kid to be present for (I feel the same about alcohol use, though for people who don’t have an alcohol problem, I’d say the different effect between someone drinking a glass of wine versus partaking in cannabis of some form is relevant. I’d be 100% in favor of alcohol not being allowed in public, though, so maybe I’m not the best one to asK.)

[OH_Homeschooler]

I'm for it. It's been legal here in IL for a couple years now. It hasn't impacted my life in any way, But it has been good for the IL economy: 

https://chicago.suntimes.com/cannabis/2021/12/7/22812374/illinois-marijuana-taxes-recreational-pot-sales-state-boxing-out-negativity-day-simp-derek-brown

[pitterpatter]

DD and I went to Boston this past May for a week and half. We did a lot of walking. The whole city smelled like pot. (I'd say we walked through at least one pot cloud per city block...more or less.) It finally dawned on me that it must be legal in Massachusetts. There was one house in Jamaica Plain that we called the pot house. It reeked every time we walked passed, which typically was twice a day. Now, we have a running joke. Every time we smell a skunk or legit pot, we say, smells like Boston. Lol. DD is well adept at identifying the odor.

This is neither here nor there, but we have a couple of HUGE greenhouses in our local industrial park that grows it. Grow lights are on all night. It's quite interesting to see. Pot is decriminalized here but legal for medical use only right now. I don't think it will be long before it's completely legal. It's on just about every notable ballot.

17 hours ago, Frances said:

Interesting. We were one of the first states to legalize, there are shops absolutely everywhere, but I very, very rarely smell it anywhere. There’s been no difference at all as far as I can tell compared to when only medical use was legal. Now when vaping first became popular before some of the restrictions and taxation here, that was everywhere. I couldn’t walk anywhere without smelling everything from cotton candy to strawberry vape and everything in between. Now that was annoying.

[Scarlett]

14 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

 

I’m generally against any form of smoking or vaping anything.

 

Me too.  I have a good deal of joint pain but I would never, no matter how much pain, smoke anything.  
 

The town I live in has just exploded with dispensaries and it doesn’t make for a better place to live for sure.  
 

My SIL says it is not like that in AR so apparently the regulations have been tighter there.  

[pitterpatter]

I'm on the fence on broad legalization too. Having a shot or two of spirits is not even close to being the same as a hit or two of pot. Smoking or eating an edible is quick and easy. Drinking normally (not binging or downing shots) takes more effort and a longer time. You can easily be ready to leave a party while drinking well before you get anywhere close to the incapacitation level that a couple of quick hits of pot will get you. The world becomes distorted with pot. You lose time too. It can be an entire night's commitment. Moderate alcohol use wears off in a pretty short time comparatively. Also, you have no idea what to expect from one batch of pot to another. Now, I realize alcohol can hit you differently on different days, but still, you generally know what to expect when you pick up your favorite spirits or whatever. Parents of young children should not be doing pot together, IMO. No one should be driving. And, if there was an emergency. 😬 I'm always amazed when people say alcohol and pot use are the same. They definitely are not. No, I'm not a pothead. Lol. But, I've been to enough parties where it's been used...by a whole lot of people. That isn't our lifestyle, so I'm pretty fascinated. Some people even grow it. I listen and ask a lot of questions. And yeah, I've experienced it 3-4 times in my life.

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I know I’m not the greatest forum communicator, so the disconnect could be on my end, but I don’t understand this in response to my post.

Personally, I never sunk into a couch for hours on pot, but your experience might be different. 

You weren't being snarky. You genuinely suggested, rightfully, that the restrictions for pot being related to age and dysfunction should be applied equally and especially to things that are more egregious by far than pot such as alcohol, and very much for military. It still boggles my brain that we will send 18 year olds to a war zone with an automatic rifle or hand grenades or whatever and have them make a judgment call about who deserves killing, BUT it is a bridge too far for them to buy a beer to smoke a joint. That makes ZERO sense. You were being logical. I think it was taken as snarky because sometimes having one's thinking on a topic challenged or pointing out logical inconsistency is taken as a personal attack.

[GoodGrief3]

I was pro-legalization, and I guess I still am in theory. That said, once recreational marijuana was legalized in our state, pot shops sprung up on every corner. Like, there might be two on the same block. The volume was off-putting. I can’t say it’s done anything positive for the community, though the taxes were supposed to improve mental health services. Hard to say if it’s done anything negative, though it does appear that the use of cannabis gummies has increased pretty significantly at the high school. 
Alcohol use and cannabis use both annoy me, but I don’t think either should be illegal. 

[Melissa Louise]

It's definitely easier to get delicate over it when it's not tied up with some systemic racism.

It isn't here.

If I was Quill, I'd probably vote to legalize but I'd be hoping like heck that someone had done the ground work of including some pretty strict regulation in the law.

I just wish people would not be blase about impact of being legally able to obtain it on those who are vulnerable. There's a reason my friend's kid didn't become psychotic when she, sadly, was drinking hand sanitizer, pre-ability to get cannabis. Hand sanitizer is pretty bad for you, but it didn't trigger psychosis.

Please understand that legality and availability do normalize use, and that will have a devastating effect on some young individuals, even if you think it's a fair enough price to pay, and 'they would have been addicted to something else anyway'.

[Heartstrings]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

I’ve always had an issue with this as well. I know states depend on alcohol taxes and lottery taxes and the like to fund their budgets at this point, but it feels like a bad idea to set up a system that relies on some people to do things that are harmful to them in order for the state to fund necessary services. And the more people drink or smoke or gamble, the more money the state brings in (I have less issue with the gambling part than the substance abuse part—I don’t think it does harm on anywhere near the same scale). I have no answer for how to replace that funding, but I don’t expect it has helped states be motivated to reduce alcohol use and abuse when it’s so lucrative to the state. Same goes for marijuana in those states where it is legal.
 

i’m surprised there are not more people here who have experienced a young person whose life went off the rails when they started using marijuana and no longer wanted to do anything else. It’s not going to happen to everyone who uses it, probably only a minority, but it’s still a pretty common phenomenon. My dh has pretty negative feelings about pot just from being a child of hippies. Too much time when parents were high with friends which was unpleasant for a young kid to be present for (I feel the same about alcohol use, though for people who don’t have an alcohol problem, I’d say the different effect between someone drinking a glass of wine versus partaking in cannabis of some form is relevant. I’d be 100% in favor of alcohol not being allowed in public, though, so maybe I’m not the best one to asK.)

I think it’s a chicken and egg issue, with both alcohol and weed.  Did a perfect life go off the rails because of the addition of alcohol or weed, or was the perfect life going off the rails already making alcohol or weed appealing as a void filler or pain killer? Is there a self medication going on, a lack of coping skills, a trauma that was kept private?

 

There are lots of ways seemingly perfect lives go off the rails that have nothing to do with substances, eating disorders, becoming promiscuous, dropping out of the family faith.  Usually there’s something wrong in the seeming perfection.  

Edited October 24, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Clarita]

27 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Please understand that legality and availability do normalize use, and that will have a devastating effect on some young individuals, even if you think it's a fair enough price to pay, and 'they would have been addicted to something else anyway'.

The individuals who would be addicted to anything will find things to be addicted to. It's not a fair price to pay, but the fix is not remove enough things. They also get addicted to working, shopping, religion things that other people just do and need to do. I think the fix for that is mental health help. 

I do live in an area where it's recreationally legal, with age limits, where you can and cannot similar to cigarettes and alcohol. Of course I do thinks it is a very strict with respect to smoking so it may look different for an area with less restrictions on that. I have seen some positive effects where people can chose to use marijuana in different forms to solve pain/anxiety issues for them or their pets. Medicinal it's not always prescribed over other drugs for whatever reason, some people have found it more helpful than some prescribed drugs.  

[Melissa Louise]

19 minutes ago, Clarita said:

The individuals who would be addicted to anything will find things to be addicted to. It's not a fair price to pay, but the fix is not remove enough things. They also get addicted to working, shopping, religion things that other people just do and need to do. I think the fix for that is mental health help. 

I do live in an area where it's recreationally legal, with age limits, where you can and cannot similar to cigarettes and alcohol. Of course I do thinks it is a very strict with respect to smoking so it may look different for an area with less restrictions on that. I have seen some positive effects where people can chose to use marijuana in different forms to solve pain/anxiety issues for them or their pets. Medicinal it's not always prescribed over other drugs for whatever reason, some people have found it more helpful than some prescribed drugs.  

Shopping addictions don't tend to trigger psychosis.

I would be 100% in favor of increasing taxes on drug/alcohol industries and directing those taxes towards high quality psychiatric, psychological and psycho-therapeutic care for those who need it. Somehow I doubt that's ever part of the conversation.

I'd also hope that where recreational drug use is being normalized by legalization, that huge educational efforts are made to educate the population on risks as well as any perceived benefits.

[Innisfree]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

It still boggles my brain that we will send 18 year olds to a war zone with an automatic rifle or hand grenades or whatever and have them make a judgment call about who deserves killing, BUT it is a bridge too far for them to buy a beer to smoke a joint.

Not to derail the thread, and if anyone wants to follow up maybe this should be a spin-off…

I think our willingness to send 18 year olds into war zones serves society better than it serves the individuals involved. We need members of the military. People are at a transition point around 18, graduating from high school and needing a next step. They also don’t have fully mature prefrontal cortexes. They’re still in the risk-taking stage. If military service were delayed until 25, when the brain is more mature, I wonder what the effect would be on numbers of recruits.

[Editing to add that I’m concerned the thoughts above might come across as offensive to some, including those who have served. Please know that no offense is intended. I just think joining the military involves accepting a lot of risks, and that acceptance might be more likely at a younger age. Not implying that motives aren’t worthy and honorable.]

In general, I’d be in favor of some sort of graduated idea of adulthood: legal competency to drive at one point, drink and smoke at another. A variety of privileges of adulthood would be up for reexamination. None of this seems likely to happen, regardless.

 I’m appreciating the various perspectives offered on this thread, and not sure how I would vote.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Innisfree

[Farrar]

Legalization and availability can affect how normalized a drug is, but it's so not a straight line. Marijuana use is super acceptable in many of the circles I'm in while tobacco use is disdained. And that includes circles in my not-a-state where pot is legal and Quill's, where she's considering whether it should be or not. There are clearly other factors at play. 

Some of the views in this thread about marijuana use seem out of another era to me. There are lots of people who use occasionally recreationally. There are also lots of people who refuse to smoke anything indoors or nearly always just use edibles so the smell is not a major issue. Some of y'all see to think it's reefer madness out there. 

[Heartstrings]

51 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Shopping addictions don't tend to trigger psychosis.

 

You’ve mentioned the psychosis possibility several times.  I’ve not really heard much about that so I went looking for info since I’ll be voting tomorrow.  I was glad to know that it’s rare, most often sighted as less than 3 people per 100,000, although I have seen up to 6 per 100,000.  And only 1/2 or 1/3 of those turn into schizophrenia.   That’s good news since it’s in such high use already.  I feel that’s a reasonable risk for an adult to assume for a recreational activity.  

 

“ The incidence of cannabis-induced psychotic disorder is thought to be 2.7 per 100,000 person-years, with a conversion rate to a schizophrenia-spectrum disorders ranging between one-third and one-half.”
 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/cannabis-induced-psychosis

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Melissa Louise]

18 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

You’ve mentioned the psychosis possibility several times.  I’ve not really heard much about that so I went looking for info since I’ll be voting tomorrow.  I was glad to know that it’s rare, most often sighted as less than 3 people per 100,000, although I have seen up to 6 per 100,000.  And only 1/2 or 1/3 of those turn into schizophrenia.   That’s good news since it’s in such high use already.  I feel that’s a reasonable risk for an adult to assume for a recreational activity.  

 

“ The incidence of cannabis-induced psychotic disorder is thought to be 2.7 per 100,000 person-years, with a conversion rate to a schizophrenia-spectrum disorders ranging between one-third and one-half.”
 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/cannabis-induced-psychosis

 

 

 

The empathy!

The reason I'm concerned about it is because it is happening in my world. A very bright and beautiful 19 year old is now in hospital on a variety of heavy duty medications due to cannabis. She obtained her cannabis legally. Her prognosis is uncertain.

Please go and read wathe's posts.

I'm done here. I've been pro-decriminalization of drugs and for harm minimization strategies since I was in my teens and it was not a mainstream position, but I have been shocked at what legally obtained cannabis use can do to wreck a person's life. That's all.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Melissa Louise

[JazzyMom]

We have dealt with cannabis induced psychosis in our young adult son who was previously mentally healthy.  

I’d warned him that with the history of mental health issues in our extended family, weed was not an option.  I even showed him the research.  However, he bought into the prevailing mindset that weed is harmless, and even beneficial.

We know of one other family who dealt with this in an adult child.  It is otherwise difficult to discuss with others because people simply do not believe weed can trigger such severe issues.  Only mental health professionals seem to fully recognize the danger.  One professional told me that that in the distant future, we will look back on normalization and wonder what we were thinking.

I have no opinion on legalization. I just wish more people understood how harmful this drug can be.

Edited October 24, 2022 by JazzyMom

[Melissa Louise]

9 minutes ago, JazzyMom said:

We have dealt with cannabis induced psychosis in our young adult son who was previously mentally healthy.  

I’d warned him that with the history of mental health issues in our extended family, weed was not an option.  I even showed him the research.  However, he bought into the prevailing mindset that weed is harmless, and even beneficial.

We know of one other family who dealt with this in an adult child.  It is otherwise difficult to discuss with others because people simply do not believe weed can trigger such severe issues.  Only mental health professionals seem to fully recognize the danger.  One professional told me that that in the distant future, we will look back on normalization and wonder what we were thinking.

I have no opinion on legalization. I just wish more people understood how harmful this drug can be.

I'm so sorry to hear this.

I have been shocked to find out this can happen.

[JazzyMom]

19 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'm so sorry to hear this.

I have been shocked to find out this can happen.

Thank you.

It has been a total nightmare.  I can only hope and pray that my younger children, having witnessed this up close, will want nothing to do with marijuana.

[Clarita]

I guess for my experience the harmless mindset of it happened way before the decriminalization of it. I've found legalization opens up a bit more conversation surrounding it. (Not at a grand scale just on a friends scale.)

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

I think it’s a chicken and egg issue, with both alcohol and weed.  Did a perfect life go off the rails because of the addition of alcohol or weed, or was the perfect life going off the rails already making alcohol or weed appealing as a void filler or pain killer? Is there a self medication going on, a lack of coping skills, a trauma that was kept private?

 

There are lots of ways seemingly perfect lives go off the rails that have nothing to do with substances, eating disorders, becoming promiscuous, dropping out of the family faith.  Usually there’s something wrong in the seeming perfection.  

This ignores the physiological basis for many addictions and mental health conditions. Some people have predispositions that are triggered by exposure. We know about this with alocoholism. This is often true with eating disorders--an ED can be triggered in susceptible individuals by calorie restriction that didn't start out having anything to do with disordered eating or thinking. (This happens to some people when they practice intermittent fasting--it's fine for some peoiple, but for some people it triggers a physiologic state that leads to ED.) It doesn't always start as anything to do with the person's life being off the rails before the behavior starts. Certainly there are not a small number of people whose lives are fine and then they try a substance recreationally that they didn't intend to get addicted to, but they do.

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Some of the views in this thread about marijuana use seem out of another era to me. There are lots of people who use occasionally recreationally. There are also lots of people who refuse to smoke anything indoors or nearly always just use edibles so the smell is not a major issue. Some of y'all see to think it's reefer madness out there. 

It sounds like many of you are in a place where you aren't seeing or smelling it everywhere. Many other people are sharing that they really are where they are. It really is the case that I smell it all over now. I never did before it was legalized here. It is very common for me to smell it and all my kids know the smell now because it's just that common (the youngest wouldn't know what it was but everyone older than kindergarten does).

 

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

You’ve mentioned the psychosis possibility several times.  I’ve not really heard much about that so I went looking for info since I’ll be voting tomorrow.  I was glad to know that it’s rare, most often sighted as less than 3 people per 100,000, although I have seen up to 6 per 100,000.  And only 1/2 or 1/3 of those turn into schizophrenia.   That’s good news since it’s in such high use already.  I feel that’s a reasonable risk for an adult to assume for a recreational activity.  

 

“ The incidence of cannabis-induced psychotic disorder is thought to be 2.7 per 100,000 person-years, with a conversion rate to a schizophrenia-spectrum disorders ranging between one-third and one-half.”
 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/cannabis-induced-psychosis

 

 

 

Cannabis and psychosis: Neurobiology

Cannabis is involved in approximately 50% of psychosis, schizophrenia, and schizophreniform psychosis cases.[1,2,3,4,5] Cannabis is a known risk factor for schizophrenia, although the exact neurobiological process through which the effects on psychosis occur is not well understood. Cannabis is also of particular interest in both the first-episode psychosis (FEP)[6,7] and the ultra high risk (UHR) populations. This is mainly due to their increased susceptibility to cannabis abuse.[8,9] Amongst FEP patients, cannabis equally affects those who go on to develop schizophrenia and those who do not.[10] In spite of significant advancements, the sequence of biological events and a valid model of neurobiological mechanisms are lacking.[4,11,12] In this review, we attempt to develop and discuss a possible pathway for the development of psychosis.

 

High-potency cannabis linked to increased risk of psychosis and addiction, study suggests

 

High potency weed linked to psychotic episodes, mysterious vomiting illness in young users

Quote

The condition — officially called "cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome" but now known to health care workers as "scromiting," a mashup of "screaming" and "vomiting" — has popped up with increasing frequency at hospitals in Colorado, doctors say.

The ER at Parkview Medical Center in Pueblo saw only five scromiting cases in 2009. By 2018, the number had risen to more than 120, according to data compiled by Dr. Brad Roberts, an emergency room physician at the hospital.

 

I know all these things seem rare and irrelevant to those who haven't seen them happen to anyone they know, but it reminds me a bit of Covid19 and how so many people are adamant that it's no big deal simply because they and their family seem to have come through it fine.

Again, I'm not actually advocating criminalization, I'm just pushing back on the constant "it's no big deal" message that is getting through loud and clear to teens, who have brains that can be significantly affected by use. Some more than others. I don't tend to see the same people telling their kids that using alcohol to get high is harmless.

 

35 minutes ago, JazzyMom said:

We have dealt with cannabis induced psychosis in our young adult son who was previously mentally healthy.  

I’d warned him that with the history of mental health issues in our extended family, weed was not an option.  I even showed him the research.  However, he bought into the prevailing mindset that weed is harmless, and even beneficial.

We know of one other family who dealt with this in an adult child.  It is otherwise difficult to discuss with others because people simply do not believe weed can trigger such severe issues.  Only mental health professionals seem to fully recognize the danger.  One professional told me that that in the distant future, we will look back on normalization and wonder what we were thinking.

I have no opinion on legalization. I just wish more people understood how harmful this drug can be.

I'm so sorry you have gone through that. I mentioned above I know someone this happened to as well. I think it's impossible for someone to appreciate how extremely scary it is when they haven't experienced it themself. I can't imagine someone not changing their mind on the harmlessness of pot if they had this happen to their kid.

[rebcoola]

7 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Me too.  I have a good deal of joint pain but I would never, no matter how much pain, smoke anything.  
 

The town I live in has just exploded with dispensaries and it doesn’t make for a better place to live for sure.  
 

My SIL says it is not like that in AR so apparently the regulations have been tighter there.  

I use it for pain some but I don't smoke it I use an edible.  Usually a mint it's very similar to taking a pill it has the exact amounts of each component on it. I put the youngest to bed take a mint watch a movie and than go to bed.  No side effects or grogginess.  I would use it more but don't use it when I am the only the driver.   It works better and has less side effects of any pain medication I have ever been given 

[Idalou]

9 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I fail to see the correlation.
You smoke pot and you definitely have a sink into the couch feeling that lasts hours, without "over indulging." Young adult drinking patterns are often weekends only.  Smoking a cigarette at all does not have this after effect - said as a former smoker in my teens.
 

 You should realize there are so many different types of pot. They don't all have you " sinking into the couch" feeling for hours, lol. There are strains that makes you feel energetic for hours, some make you relaxed but not sleepy, some work as well as gabapentin, some make you feel peppy unless you take a larger amount and then they make you want to sink into the couch. And then mixing the varieties changes it again. The effects last different lengths, too. It's pretty interesting talking to someone knowledgeable who sells it, in my opinion. Really nothing like its used to be.

[Idalou]

7 hours ago, pitterpatter said:

I'm on the fence on broad legalization too. Having a shot or two of spirits is not even close to being the same as a hit or two of pot. Smoking or eating an edible is quick and easy. Drinking normally (not binging or downing shots) takes more effort and a longer time. You can easily be ready to leave a party while drinking well before you get anywhere close to the incapacitation level that a couple of quick hits of pot will get you. The world becomes distorted with pot. You lose time too. It can be an entire night's commitment. Moderate alcohol use wears off in a pretty short time comparatively. Also, you have no idea what to expect from one batch of pot to another. Now, I realize alcohol can hit you differently on different days, but still, you generally know what to expect when you pick up your favorite spirits or whatever. Parents of young children should not be doing pot together, IMO. No one should be driving. And, if there was an emergency. 😬 I'm always amazed when people say alcohol and pot use are the same. They definitely are not. No, I'm not a pothead. Lol. But, I've been to enough parties where it's been used...by a whole lot of people. That isn't our lifestyle, so I'm pretty fascinated. Some people even grow it. I listen and ask a lot of questions. And yeah, I've experienced it 3-4 times in my life.

 You are comparing 'moderate alcohol' with 1 or 2 'hits' , so no, the world does not become distorted with pot. That's hilarious. You don't lose time. It is not an entire nights commitment. You do know what to expect from one batch to another, if you know what type you're buying. You go to a store, you choose from different types, you learn what effects they give. You're not standing behind some bushes taking what some scary guy has tucked in this coat.

I'm not a pot head either, if that helps. I also rarely ever drink alcohol. I don't like to see teens or young adults get high or drunk. I support strict laws for drunk or high driving. I just don't subscribe to the Reefer Madness mentality.

[Farrar]

36 minutes ago, KSera said:

It sounds like many of you are in a place where you aren't seeing or smelling it everywhere. Many other people are sharing that they really are where they are. It really is the case that I smell it all over now. I never did before it was legalized here. It is very common for me to smell it and all my kids know the smell now because it's just that common (the youngest wouldn't know what it was but everyone older than kindergarten does).

 

Actually, I live in walking distance from maybe a dozen legal pot shops. I routinely smell it outside. I'm in an inner city. It's everywhere. It was also everywhere before it was legalized here. I remember well. Do I smell it more now? I mean, sure. But I think that's mostly because people feel free to smoke outside instead of hiding where they think cops can't smell. The uptick in use here seems not huge. 

I also was pretty familiar with the smell of pot growing up as a child of the 70's. It's nothing new.

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

The empathy

Of course I have empathy for victims of rare occurrences.  I just don’t necessarily think we should ban things based on small chances of harm. Psychosis is rare, permanent issues from if are even more rare, and death from cannibas is exceedingly rare.  Acknowledging that doesn’t mean someone lacks empathy.  
 

Since this is a thread about the topic generally, not a specific persons grief over an unfortunate event I’m not sure why statistics and opinions on those statistics shouldn’t be allowed.  We still discuss covid statistics even though boardies have lost people.  On a thread specifically about someone’s grief I wouldn’t dream of saying, hey but it’s rare.  But we’re talking generally about a topic here.
 

You and others brought up the psychosis issue so I looked into it.  That’s what discourse is suppose to do.  

Edited October 25, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Corraleno]

Obviously any drug, including alcohol, can be abused to the point of causing significant physical and mental health problems. Statistics suggest that somewhere between 1 in 8 and 1 in 13 U.S. adults have an alcohol use disorder. And according to the CDC, "Excessive alcohol use led to more than 140,000 deaths and 3.6 million years of potential life lost (YPLL) each year in the United States from 2015 – 2019... Further, excessive drinking was responsible for 1 in 10 deaths among working-age adults aged 20-64 years." https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm

Alcohol psychosis is also a thing: "A 2015 Dutch literature review on alcohol-related psychotic disorder found that there is a 0.4% lifetime prevalence in the general population and a 4% prevalence in patients with alcohol dependence. ... Once diagnosed with alcohol-related psychosis, there is a 68% chance of re-admission and a 37% co-morbidity with other mental disorders. Patients with alcohol-related psychosis have a 5% to 30% risk of developing a chronic schizophrenia-like syndrome." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK459134/

Yet alcohol is not only legal, it's celebrated and heavily promoted, with revenue from US alcohol sales totaling $261 billion this year. So why is this incredibly toxic and addictive drug, that can cause liver failure, heart disease, and several types of cancer, and which leads to the death of more than 140,000 Americans annually, legal while cannabis is still criminalized in 31 states? 

"In 2018, police made more marijuana arrests than than all violent crimes combined" and 90% of those were for mere possession (source). Criminalizing cannabis serves several purposes that some states do not want to give up: it provides a pretense for incarcerating Black people for nonviolent drug offenses at 4 times the rate of whites; conviction  can block a person from ever receiving benefits like food stamps or Pell grants; in some states it can permanently strip people of their right to vote; it increases revenue in private for-profit prisons; and it literally creates a pool of slave labor (average wage of an incarcerated person = 86 cents/day).

There is no logical, science-based argument for criminalizing cannabis while alcohol is legal. 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Corraleno

[Farrar]

40 minutes ago, KSera said:

Again, I'm not actually advocating criminalization, I'm just pushing back on the constant "it's no big deal" message that is getting through loud and clear to teens, who have brains that can be significantly affected by use. Some more than others. I don't tend to see the same people telling their kids that using alcohol to get high is harmless.

 

Just pulling this to respond to it as well. I totally agree that it's a drug with real consequences for use and that can be habit forming and potentially pretty bad when used habitually, particularly by young brains. I have a family member in the industry (legal side) and I'm pretty familiar with how it can mess up someone's life. Seriously.

I just firmly believe that we could talk more clearly about that if it were legalized. Right now, it feels to me like there's a huge gulf in messaging. And the "legalize it" side has been pushing this belief that it's not just harmless but super beneficial (which, don't get me wrong, it can also have some benefits for pain management) and that's honestly crap. It's just that the vast majority of users don't suffer negative long term effects and the government's war on users has hurt people a lot. And as long as that's going on, it's hard to get people to listen about the risks because the government response is so over the top.

[KSera]

17 minutes ago, Idalou said:

You are comparing 'moderate alcohol' with 1 or 2 'hits' , so no, the world does not become distorted with pot. That's hilarious. You don't lose time. It is not an entire nights commitment. You do know what to expect from one batch to another, if you know what type you're buying. You go to a store, you choose from different types, you learn what effects they give. You're not standing behind some bushes taking what some scary guy has tucked in this coat.

I don't think people should be belittled for suggesting that pot use can have major impacts on some users. The concentration on THC is on average far higher today than it was a couple decades ago. So it's not like it has somehow become more inert. It's safer from a perspective of contamination and there are the medical versions without THC available, and both of those things are very good.

This is just a news article, but there are lots of others similar from doctors in emergency rooms and many studies indicating the same thing. I encourage those who are adamant there is nothing different going on with marijuana use since legaliztion to read this and/or some of those studies: I never saw anything like this

The potency is higher and the incidence of severe side effects is way up. What I like about the above article is that the focus isn't on criminalization but on reducing usage by and harms to young people. If it's going to be legal as it is, regulation hasn't gone far enough, and the "harmless" attitude from adults contributes to the actual harm to kids.

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

Actually, I live in walking distance from maybe a dozen legal pot shops. I routinely smell it outside. I'm in an inner city. It's everywhere. It was also everywhere before it was legalized here. I remember well. Do I smell it more now? I mean, sure. But I think that's mostly because people feel free to smoke outside instead of hiding where they think cops can't smell. The uptick in use here seems not huge. 

I also was pretty familiar with the smell of pot growing up as a child of the 70's. It's nothing new.

I thought you meant you didn't tend to smell it there because you said the smell is not a major issue. I guess you must have meant that smelling it everywhere isn't an issue. I misunderstood because you mentioned it in relation to lots of people consuming in non-smoked forms so I thought you meant you didn't encounter the smoke very often.

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I thought you meant you didn't tend to smell it there because you said the smell is not a major issue. I guess you must have meant that smelling it everywhere isn't an issue. I misunderstood because you mentioned it in relation to lots of people consuming in non-smoked forms so I thought you meant you didn't encounter the smoke very often.

I guess I don't really understand the "I can smell it!" complaint. And maybe this is just because I live in a city? Everything is smelly. I'm more concerned about the waft of dumpsters. A friend of mine got into a protracted battle about a restaurant's cooking equipment smelling up her alley that I sympathized with. But pot smoke is just... something you whiff all the time. I don't think it's especially bad. I just don't get the shock and hatred around it. And I smell it significantly more often than tobacco smoke at this point.

[KSera]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Yet alcohol is not only legal, it's celebrated and heavily promoted, with revenue from US alcohol sales totaling $261 billion this year. So why is this incredibly toxic and addictive drug, that can cause liver failure, heart disease, and several types of cancer, and which leads to the death of more than 140,000 Americans annually, legal while cannabis is still criminalized in 31 states? 
 

Hey, I'm all for having the rules the same for both! Prohibition didn't work well, but I wouldn't complain or care a bit if alcohol all disappeared tonight. I'd actually be quite happy, because the risks of me or mine being killed by a drunk driver on our way home would drop by about half.

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Just pulling this to respond to it as well. I totally agree that it's a drug with real consequences for use and that can be habit forming and potentially pretty bad when used habitually, particularly by young brains. I have a family member in the industry (legal side) and I'm pretty familiar with how it can mess up someone's life. Seriously.

I just firmly believe that we could talk more clearly about that if it were legalized. Right now, it feels to me like there's a huge gulf in messaging. And the "legalize it" side has been pushing this belief that it's not just harmless but super beneficial (which, don't get me wrong, it can also have some benefits for pain management) and that's honestly crap. It's just that the vast majority of users don't suffer negative long term effects and the government's war on users has hurt people a lot. And as long as that's going on, it's hard to get people to listen about the risks because the government response is so over the top.

I agree with this. I guess because I'm from an area where it's legal, I'm coming from the opposite side where we don't have the criminalization problems anymore, but we do have the problems happening from marijuana use (including an increase in traffic accidents and fatalities due to people driving under the influence of pot) and I hear usage risks minimized and normalized all the time.

[Frances]

54 minutes ago, KSera said:

It sounds like many of you are in a place where you aren't seeing or smelling it everywhere. Many other people are sharing that they really are where they are. It really is the case that I smell it all over now. I never did before it was legalized here. It is very common for me to smell it and all my kids know the smell now because it's just that common (the youngest wouldn't know what it was but everyone older than kindergarten does).

Is it legal to smoke pot in public where you live? In my state, it was illegal to smoke in public before marijuana legalization expanded beyond medical use only and it’s still illegal. I think that is why I haven’t noticed any difference in how often I smell it (very rarely) despite a plethora of pot shops everywhere now.

[KSera]

Just now, Farrar said:

I guess I don't really understand the "I can smell it!" complaint. And maybe this is just because I live in a city? Everything is smelly. I'm more concerned about the waft of dumpsters. A friend of mine got into a protracted battle about a restaurant's cooking equipment smelling up her alley that I sympathized with. But pot smoke is just... something you whiff all the time. I don't think it's especially bad. I just don't get the shock and hatred around it. And I smell it significantly more often than tobacco smoke at this point.

This is probably the difference in people who don't mind it and people who find it stomach turning. I just hate the smell, but two of my young adults find it physically nauseating. And just like we shouldn't have to breathe second hand cigarette smoke (and we almost never do anymore due to regulation here), I don't think we should have to breathe second hand pot smoke, and I resent my small children having to breathe it. It's not inert. I'd definitely rather they smell stinky garbage. However, we live in the country. Newcomers sometimes complain about the smell of horses and cows, but that's an expected smell when you move to a rural area. Frequently walking through pot smoke is a new thing for us. That never used to be a thing. I guess it's hard in high density housing to keep noxious smells to yourself though. I don't know an answer for that.

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I just firmly believe that we could talk more clearly about that if it were legalized. Right now, it feels to me like there's a huge gulf in messaging. And the "legalize it" side has been pushing this belief that it's not just harmless but super beneficial (which, don't get me wrong, it can also have some benefits for pain management) and that's honestly crap. It's just that the vast majority of users don't suffer negative long term effects and the government's war on users has hurt people a lot. And as long as that's going on, it's hard to get people to listen about the risks because the government response is so over the top.

I think legalization will also make it easier for people who do have abuse problems to get help, because you don't have to risk arrest if you admit to using it or if you need emergency help while under the influence.  

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

Is it legal to smoke pot in public where you live? In my state, it was illegal to smoke in public before marijuana legalization expanded beyond medical use only and it’s still illegal. I think that is why I haven’t noticed any difference in how often I smell it (very rarely) despite a plethora of pot shops everywhere now.

Nope, not legal in public. I guess lots of people not following the law? Sometimes I'm smelling it when walking past people's houses (it travels really far, so I can pass the front of someone's 2 acre property and smell it. That's their prerogative on their property, of course). Other times I smell it a lot are on college campuses (EVERYWHERE) and on the streets when visiting local cities. I think people there just aren't following the laws. Maybe my family is just super sensitive to the smell 🤷‍♀️ (but it is a marked change from before legalization--I don't know why the difference for us, but all I can say is that it used to be something I had only smelled a few times, and now it's just commonplace).

[Heartstrings]

Does pot need to be illegal to deal with the smell issue?  It seems like trying to work to change your state or locality laws to not allowing any form of smoking in public would be a better way to deal with it.   I’d love an ordance making the shops not so dang garish too while we’re at it.  

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

Nope, not legal in public. I guess lots of people not following the law? Sometimes I'm smelling it when walking past people's houses (it travels really far, so I can pass the front of someone's 2 acre property and smell it. That's their prerogative on their property, of course). Other times I smell it a lot are on college campuses (EVERYWHERE) and on the streets when visiting local cities. I think people there just aren't following the laws. Maybe my family is just super sensitive to the smell 🤷‍♀️ (but it is a marked change from before legalization--I don't know why the difference for us, but all I can say is that it used to be something I had only smelled a few times, and now it's just commonplace).

I’m also super sensitive to smells, live urban, and near a college campus. But I guess I spend most of my time walking in parks, so maybe that’s why I rarely smell it. As I said upthread, I noticed a much, much bigger change when flavored vaping exploded in popularity. I hated all of the sickly sweet vaping fumes. But with some legislative changes that has significantly lessened.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Frances

[Not_a_Number]

20 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

I feel that way about cars, but nobody else wants to get on board with my "Ban all cars so we have more street space for people" initiative.

I wouldn’t mind in large parts of Manhattan…

 

20 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Joking aside, it sounds like those trucks and stores are stimulating the economy. I don't see why that's a problem.

They bother me. It’s pretty inchoate.🤷‍♀️