13 year old admitted to medical school

[Katy]

Pretty cool story. 
 

https://people.com/human-interest/alena-analeigh-wicker-accepted-to-medical-school-at-13/?amp=true

[catz]

Best of luck to her and her family. 

I always wonder how employable kids like that are as a parent of a kid that could have taken a graduate super early road.  I've also taught/tutored a lot of GT kids, often in group settings.  And seen some intereting asynochous social and emotional behavior that parents didn't always seem savvy to.  

When I was a new graduate I was hired alongside another new graduate that was 2 years younger than the average graduate in a professional corporate setting.  He was very difficult to work with and not at all ready for full adulting.  The company definitely regretted taking the chance on him.  He was tolerated but definitely not treated as a peer even by the youngest/newest STEM employees and it defintely affected the work he was assigned and his initial career trajectory.  He didn't have the self awareness to get it either unfortunately.  

[EKS]

I saw that story a few days ago.  Along the same lines as catz's comments, I always wonder why people choose to radically accelerate kids like this into programs that are decidedly average.  Though I am not familiar with Oakwood University, I am intimately familiar with ASU's offerings.  That said, these may have been the only options for any sort of appropriate acceleration where her family lives.  I hope that once she gets into the more competitive environment of the medical school that she continues to do well.

Edited July 24, 2022 by EKS

[bolt.]

I've always been surprised that US post-secondary schools admit children. For the longest time I thought it was a myth, like a storytelling device used in fiction, a 'superpower'. (Like Sheldon on 'Big Bang Theory' -- I thought the idea of his young attendance at university was preposterous: part of the joke.)

Now I know that, yes, it happens on a case-by-case basis even in Canada and other countries. But it still seems so strange. I know that a gifted/talented young teen could do course work successfully, probably with a support system. But it doesn't mean they are ready to enter the adult world.

It seems like there might be a better way to occupy-and-develop the minds of these unique individuals without just pushing them 'forward' into the next stage of life and the environments suitable for that stage of life.

Edited July 24, 2022 by bolt.

[Ottakee]

This will be interesting as medical school covers a lot of very adult material.  A friend of mine was in an nurse practitioner program when that first became a career and she struggled a bit as she was only 20 and some of the experiences/exposures they were to have did not admit those under 21.   I can’t imagine a 13 year old having the maturity to handle the life and death aspects of medicine as well.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I agree with a lot of the other concerns here. But also, man she seems like a really cool person. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I have a child who probably wouldn’t be ready for medical school at 13 but I strongly suspect she will be ready for dual enrollment around that time.  I did early college, though I was 16 not 13, and even then(granted I was a sort of sheltered homeschooled) the maturity and socio-emotional differences were stark.  We’ve gone more down the enrichment vs early college route because of that(right now; things could change).

[Katy]

I did early college too. I have a policy that kids who want to accelerate can but no one is allowed to move out until they’re at least 18. I saw too many 15 year olds sleeping with grad students. There are some mistakes you shouldn’t have the chance to make until you’re an actual adult. 

[EKS]

To be clear, she will be 15 (or possibly 16) by the time she goes to medical school.  She was accepted to the class that will be starting in the fall of 2024.

[catz]

7 hours ago, bolt. said:

I've always been surprised that US post-secondary schools admit children. For the longest time I thought it was a myth, like a storytelling device used in fiction, a 'superpower'. (Like Sheldon on 'Big Bang Theory' -- I thought the idea of his young attendance at university was preposterous: part of the joke.)

 

I know a couple kids locally that were admitted and graduated from college super early.  And both had inside connections to universities.  My kid took the ACT at 11/12 and had very solid scores to attend most moderately competitive universities at that point.  I sent a few emails to try and get him into ONE special interest class at a community college (it was music theory so it wasn't something like literature or history, etc where emotional maturity is important and he was performing piano concertos at the time), I had teacher references recommending him.  This is when he was like 7th/8th grade.   And I got absolutely no where with that.  So much of life in the US is who you know and how pushy your parent is willing to be.

One kid I know did undergrad super early, got a degree with much support and fanfare.  And then wasn't employable and couldn't get grad school funding.  I also worry about picking an academic and career path super early.  My PG kid was ALL over the place in terms of career direction and I especially didn't get locked in as a parent too early on a path.  I do get that a lot of parenting these kids is least worst options and sometimes you're just along for the ride with a really pushy kid that is dragging you down a path.  

It does seem like from a liability standpoint, I totally see why institutions would be very hesitant to have young students in the mix.  And once I started leading groups of GT classes with a range of ages, I started really seeing affects of some social dynamics.  Like the oldest kids in the group would change their behavoir to tolerate and be inclusive of the youngest GT kid in the group.  But those younger kids didn't always get that they weren't truly being treated as peers and their parents didn't either.  I also saw a real difference in empathy, social maturity, etc.  It actually made me rethink how I was designing classes to accomdate kids at a variety of levels while providing good opportunities to have social opportunities in the classroom.    The path to adulthood is not just about academic readiness.

Edited July 24, 2022 by catz

[Jean in Newcastle]

Medical school is a post graduate degree. So she’s already a junior in college within one year of graduating high school (if I read the article correctly). So she’s already handling a college environment and is thriving academically at least. 

[Faith-manor]

45 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I have a child who probably wouldn’t be ready for medical school at 13 but I strongly suspect she will be ready for dual enrollment around that time.  I did early college, though I was 16 not 13, and even then(granted I was a sort of sheltered homeschooled) the maturity and socio-emotional differences were stark.  We’ve gone more down the enrichment vs early college route because of that(right now; things could change).

Same here. I started dual enrollment at 14. There were some awkward moments, but it was okay. I was in college full time at 16, and I have to admit that music departments and all the sexual harassment that so often goes with them (some violin and voice professors need to learn to keep their hands OFF the accompanist 😡) was extra difficult to manage. However, my gen eds - show up, hear the lecture, do the work, go home) were just fine. I think the worst elements of the maturity and socio emotional stuff comes through in the major and upper divisional work when it gets really intense. Pure mathematics or something similar would be easier I think. Medicine is one that really gives me pause. Patient relationship, subtleties of diagnostics, navigating complicated emotional landscapes, life experience needed...I can't imagine that I would personally want Doogie Howser for my physician.

 

[Laura Corin]

In the UK, where medicine is an undergraduate degree dependent on having unfeasibly good AP-equivalent grades in all sciences, you have to be 18 by 1st October of your entry year. I believe it's the only course with an unbreakable age limit.

[Katy]

28 minutes ago, catz said:

I know a couple kids locally that were admitted and graduated from college super early.  And both had inside connections to universities.  My kid took the ACT at 11/12 and had very solid scores to attend most moderately competitive universities at that point.  I sent a few emails to try and get him into ONE special interest class at a community college (it was music theory so it wasn't something like literature or history, etc where emotional maturity is important), I had teacher references recommending him.  This is when he was like 7th/8th grade.   And I got absolutely no where with that.  So much of life in the US is who you know and how pushy your parent is willing to be.

One kid I know did undergrad super early, got a degree with much support and fanfare.  And then wasn't employable and couldn't get grad school funding.  I also worry about picking an academic and career path super early.  My PG kid was ALL over the place in terms of career direction and I especially didn't get locked in as a parent too early on a path.  I do get that a lot of parenting these kids is least worst options and sometimes you're just along for the ride with a really pushy kid that is dragging you down a path.  

It does seem like from a liability standpoint, I totally see why institutions would be very hesitant to have young students in the mix.  And once I started leading groups of GT classes with a range of ages, I started really seeing affects of some social dynamics.  Like the oldest kids in the group would change their behavoir to tolerate and be inclusive of the youngest GT kid in the group.  But those younger kids didn't always get that they weren't truly being treated as peers and their parents didn't either.  I also saw a real difference in empathy, social maturity, etc.  It actually made me rethink how I was designing classes to accomdate kids at a variety of levels while providing good opportunities to have social opportunities in the classroom.    The path to adulthood is not just about academic readiness.

Community Colleges typically have many more regulations due to funding than a full university. And typically private universities have even more programs than public ones.

[PaxEtLux]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Along the same likes as catz's comments, I always wonder why people choose to radically accelerate kids like this into programs that are decidedly average.  Though I am not familiar with Oakwood University, I am intimately familiar with ASU's offerings.  That said, these may have been the only options for any sort of appropriate acceleration where her family lives

 

I wish nothing but the best for this girl, she does sound super interesting and cool.  However, I think that the fact that a bright, motivated 12 year old can graduate from high school says as much about the high school as it does the student. But, then what is she (or her parents) supposed to do with a 12 year old high school graduate?  Yes, she's much smarter and more dedicated than most other 12 year olds (and 18 year olds for that matter), but I'm guessing she isn't going to get accepted to an MIT or Harvard or somewhere tippy-top, especially if she still wants to study and live at home in Texas.  Sounds like she is doing two independent undergrad programs, one at ASU, the other at Oakwood, both 100% online from home.

[City Mouse]

I think about this from the perspective of a patient. I don’t care how smart the child is, there is no way I would want a teen age medical student completing a gyn exam on me among other things. I think the patient interaction is going to be a bigger obstacle than simply learning the material.

Edited July 24, 2022 by City Mouse

[Katy]

15 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

 

I wish nothing but the best for this girl, she does sound super interesting and cool.  However, I think that the fact that a bright, motivated 12 year old can graduate from high school says as much about the high school as it does the student. But, then what is she (or her parents) supposed to do with a 12 year old high school graduate?  Yes, she's much smarter and more dedicated than most other 12 year olds (and 18 year olds for that matter), but I'm guessing she isn't going to get accepted to an MIT or Harvard or somewhere tippy-top, especially if she still wants to study and live at home in Texas.  Sounds like she is doing two independent undergrad programs, one at ASU, the other at Oakwood, both 100% online from home.

The labs are in person.

[PaxEtLux]

18 minutes ago, Katy said:

The labs are in person.

 

The article also said that she lives in Texas.  I'm curious how she attends in-person labs at schools in Alabama and Arizona.

[Katy]

19 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

 

The article also said that she lives in Texas.  I'm curious how she attends in-person labs at schools in Alabama and Arizona.

Most remote schools with in-person labs either have remote lab locations or a few weeks or weekend labs. 

[sheryl]

YAY for her! That's wonderful!  I remember hearing/reading about a young Indian boy (Asian) who had a similar path.  I hope I have that right.  That would have been several years ago.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Her goal, according to the article, is to become a flight surgeon. Which, if I understand the process, means that she would at some point join the military- probably Air Force since she wants to work with astronauts. She has a lot of steps ahead of her and especially with the military probably will have to be a certain age. 

[Tree Frog]

As a mom of a recently graduated med school student, there were a couple of things that jumped out at me from the linked article. First, the picture of her in a white coat is misleading. Med school students don't get their white coats until they're actually attending the program, which she is not yet. Second, she sounds very cocky. That could either be a plus or minus for her in med school, and though there are many cocky doctors, I wouldn't like to be a patient of one so young.

My dd could've graduated college at 19. I received a panicked phone call one night telling me she had to submit paperwork for her graduation, but she knew she wasn't ready and asked me what she should do. I posted here at the time to ask for suggestions so she could remain in college until she could graduate with her cohort. She had been working since high school and had many friends who were older than she was and she saw they way they both included and excluded her based entirely on her age. (Think going to bars and parties.) They weren't rude, but she recognized the problems her younger age caused. She knew if she joined the workforce at 19 that she would face challenges she didn't want to face that would be mitigated by an extra couple years in school. The young woman in the article likely hasn't yet experienced many situations like this.

I fear this young woman will also face such challenges. What will she do when her cohort in med school socializes with alcohol? Most of my med school student's activities included alcohol. I fear she won't have the support of her cohort because she won't be able to participate in many (most?) social events with them specifically due to her age. Will the cohort be resentful if they have to limit their activities to include her due to her age inabilities? What about all the permission forms Mom will have to sign because Alena won't be old enough to sign her own? Will she be limited by her age to practice certain skills that she's learned about?

I really don't see this as a positive event. I assume she'll need to be in person for med school. Will Mom move to AL so she can continue to support the young woman or will Alena have to adjust to living on her own at the same time she starts med school? That's a pretty massive shift that's difficult for many more mature (older) students. I'm glad she's able to accomplish all she already has, but there's something to having maturity in dealing with life and death topics.

It's also possible I'm reading more into this than what is there. Several of you have mentioned info that's not given in the OP's link. It's possible Mom (and Dad? He's not mentioned in the linked article) and Alena have already thought through these situations. Or maybe it's not a concern for them right now. And perhaps they'll just work through the situations as they happen. I wish her much success.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Tree Frog

[PaxEtLux]

9 minutes ago, Tree Frog said:

Second, she sounds very cocky.

 

Truth be told, I'd rather see teenagers be cocky and brag about their academic achievements than brag about stuff they own, or their ability to attract someone of the opposite sex, or many of the other things I see teens going on about.

[PaxEtLux]

34 minutes ago, Tree Frog said:

Several of you have mentioned info that's not given in the OP's link.

There's a bit more info in the Washington Post newspaper article linked early in the OP's link.

[Katy]

5 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

There's a bit more info in the Washington Post newspaper article linked early in the OP's link.

I tried to link that one, but I cannot figure out how to gift a WaPo article. 

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Her goal, according to the article, is to become a flight surgeon. Which, if I understand the process, means that she would at some point join the military- probably Air Force since she wants to work with astronauts. She has a lot of steps ahead of her and especially with the military probably will have to be a certain age. 

And in another article she says she wants to be a viral immunologist. A year ago, at 12, she was planning to get an engineering degree and work for NASA. Now at 13 she wants to go to med school and maybe be a flight surgeon, or an immunologist, or....?  

This is the problem with radically accelerating a kid who's bright but doesn't have much life experience and doesn't really know what she wants to do. It sounds like she's just choosing career goals that she thinks are smart and impressive, without really having any idea what else is out there. And instead of really challenging herself at a top university, where she can take a wide variety of interesting classes in different areas to expose her to other ideas and options, and interact with other really bright students she can bounce ideas off and have deep discussions with, she's rushing through a lot of not-very-challenging online coursework, checking off boxes as quickly as she can to get 2 bachelor degrees by 15 (why???), so she can graduate med school at 19, and then... compete with every other med school graduate for a limited number of available residencies when her age is likely to be a huge disadvantage. And that's assuming she survives med school and/or doesn't just decide next year that what she really wants to be is a marine biologist or a SCOTUS justice or something else.

Both of my kids have taken ASU online classes, and none of them have been remotely challenging, even for my very not-academically-inclined DD. I mean, I had to settle for the most minimal, basic HS requirements for her, and she struggled with CC classes, but she has taken 3 ASU online classes and gotten As in all three with minimal work. DS took 2 ASU classes in HS and said they were vastly easier than the HS classes he did with me or the Lukeion classes he started in 7th & 8th grade. If this girl is internalizing the idea, from her mother and various media stories, that she's a genius because she's taking ASU online classes at 12 & 13, then she may be in for a rude awakening when she gets to med school at 15 and finds herself surrounded by equally bright but much better prepared 21+ year old classmates — who don't really want to hang out with a 15 yr old.

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Corraleno

[EKS]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Both of my kids have taken ASU online classes, and none of them have been remotely challenging, even for my very not-academically-inclined DD.

This.  My experience with second tier state schools (which is substantial) is that their expectations are ridiculously low.

[shawthorne44]

I'm happy for her.  I'd be surprised if she did the normal post-doc then medical practice route.  She'll have time to get another post-doc degree.  Or, if she sticks with her current plans, She'll be 18-19 when she finishes medical school and that is very much old enough to join the military.

 

 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I've hesitated about wading into this discussion, because I know this is a polarising topic. 

I just want to say that raising a child like this is challenging. Finding appropriate academic stimulation for them is challenging. Finding peers is very very challenging. 

I realise that it's hard to imagine a child being ready and able to handle a university life, but it does happen. 

And the insinuation that you need to know someone, or the parents are just pushing the child forward, or it's only possible because the program is easy? That's insulting. 

 

[Lecka]

I knew a 15yo in college who didn’t belong there At All, and then I found out someone was the same age and I had no idea she was younger than peers, and she was thriving.  
 

But the 15yo who didn’t belong there was much more visible.  
 

At the same time, that 15yo was from a small town and there was nothing left for her there, and I think they were making the best of the situation.  
 

I would hope this girl is doing things in a good way for her 🙂  If she seems mature I doubt I would realize she was young.  I see girls from as young as 11-12 who can come across as adults. Not all the time — but they are out there for sure, I do see them around.  

[Farrar]

I'm pretty sure none of the ASU labs are in person if she's doing the remote program.

One of my kids did a bunch of ASU classes last year. Some of them were challenging in that he's busy and they're very condensed because many of them are really short. And one of them was challenging because the professor's notes, the textbook readings, the supplemental videos, and what he actually put on the quizzes simply did not align properly so there was a lot of frustration. One of the courses had a really challenging volume of work. But in terms of academically rigorous... um, no. 

On the other hand, when a course there says it covers certain material, it does seem to cover it. So there's that.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

I just want to say that raising a child like this is challenging. Finding appropriate academic stimulation for them is challenging. Finding peers is very very challenging. 

I realise that it's hard to imagine a child being ready and able to handle a university life, but it does happen. 

And the insinuation that you need to know someone, or the parents are just pushing the child forward, or it's only possible because the program is easy? That's insulting. 

 

It's actually not hard at all to imagine kids ready for college-level work at a young age. I was bored out of my mind in HS, graduated at 16, and could easily have handled college much younger than that, but I had very unhelpful and unsupportive parents and had to fight like hell to force the school to let me graduate early at all. I had a BA and an MA and was in a PhD program at a top 10 school on a full fellowship at 20. I have a gifted kid who is also 2E, so I am very aware of the challenge of finding appropriate academic stimulation and peers.  He worked on digs with paleontologists from Berkeley and Columbia for three summers, from 11-13, and he went on three separate archaeological tours of Greece, Italy, and Turkey. Most of his HS education involved college lectures through Coursera or The Great Courses, he taught himself Turkish, Old Norse, and theoretical linguistics with college textbooks, and he jumped into 400 level classes in his major as a college freshman. One of his hobbies as a kid was invented languages, and a linguistics prof at his college was so impressed with his work that he asked permission to use it as the basis for a class exercise in his course on the topic. There are many parents on this board with kids who are MUCH more advanced than mine, and they have also found appropriate academic stimulation for them that was truly challenging and offered genuine peers.

Enrolling a kid in very basic, unchallenging online classes, where they have no interaction with peers, is the opposite of that. And it's not insulting to point out that the program this girl is enrolled in is super basic and easy, when we know for a fact, from personal experience, that many of those "college" classes are easier than what our kids were doing in middle school.

No one is arguing that gifted kids can't handle advanced material or that early college isn't appropriate for highly gifted kids. But this kid is just pointlessly plowing through two years of basic online classes at two different colleges, simultaneously, in one year, for no reason. She seems to have changed her mind several times in a very short period of time about what she wants to be when she grows up — which is totally understandable since she's only 13 — but it makes absolutely no sense to rush through a bunch of low level box-checking classes just so she can start med school at an age that is likely to cause significant social and logistical issues for her, when her parents could have chosen instead to provide her with academic stimulation and opportunities to go deeper/broader/richer with her education, instead of racing through unchallenging programs as quickly as possible. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Corraleno

[Jean in Newcastle]

She seems like a happy 13 year old who is looking forward to a happy future- no matter what degrees or even career she ends up with. Life might throw her some curveballs. She may change her mind on “what she wants to be when she grows up “ a dozen more times in the next few years. If she has supportive parents (or Mom) as she says that she has, she’ll be fine. 

[PaxEtLux]

1 hour ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

And the insinuation that ... it's only possible because the program is easy?

That's not the insinuation I'm getting from this thread.  What I read a lot of posters here saying something like "If a child can handle some unchallenging University program of study at age 12, surely that means they could handle the rigors of a top-tier program when they are a few years older, and it would be better to wait and to go the better school".

Now, I don't have much experience with profoundly gifted kids, so maybe this isn't true.  Maybe these kids are just "accelerated", meaning that they've reached their academic peak at age 12, and if she waited six years to go to college, she would still be going to the same school.  Personally, I doubt this, but I could be wrong.

 

What I think is missing from our educational system is challenging, but age-appropriate curricula for high schoolers.  Most high schoolers are just not as mature as college age students, and often need a different approach.  They benefit from every-day small classes in a high school setting, but that doesn't mean that the classes can't be challenging.  There are ways to have high-school maturity appropriate classes be as rigorous as college classes, but designed for high schoolers. Take Lukeion Latin & Greek classes for example -- they are very, very challenging, but at the same time, designed for high school kids.  Same with the Art of Problem Solving Math curriculum.  I'd like to see more of these kinds of options offered to high school kids, instead of dual-enrollment.

[Tree Frog]

19 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

when her parents could have chosen instead to provide her with academic stimulation and opportunities to go deeper/broader/richer with her education, instead of racing through unchallenging programs as quickly as possible. 

I wonder how many parents actually think about this. For that matter, it sounds like there have been other mentors in her life who could've suggested broadening experiences, too. For most public schooled students, once they've accomplished 'A", it's time to move to 'B', in a very linear line. They don't think to move to 'A.1' or 'A.5'. It's box checking at its finest.

[maize]

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Medical school is a post graduate degree. So she’s already a junior in college within one year of graduating high school (if I read the article correctly). So she’s already handling a college environment and is thriving academically at least. 

Also, in many countries medical school is direct-entry-from-high-school; she won't be that much younger than the many thousands of 18 year olds going into medical school around the world.

[Tanaqui]

You know, it really doesn't make sense that there aren't more programs designed to accelerate the education of very young students who are ready for college-level work but would still benefit from being with their same-aged peers. The USA is a huge country, we actually have the third largest population in the world. We surely must have enough students like that to support at least one such program in practically every state, and more than that in the more populous ones. Just considering demographics, if you have enough people, you have enough exceptional people.
 

Don't mind me, just thinking aloud, as it were.

[Katy]

6 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

You know, it really doesn't make sense that there aren't more programs designed to accelerate the education of very young students who are ready for college-level work but would still benefit from being with their same-aged peers. The USA is a huge country, we actually have the third largest population in the world. We surely must have enough students like that to support at least one such program in practically every state, and more than that in the more populous ones. Just considering demographics, if you have enough people, you have enough exceptional people.
 

Don't mind me, just thinking aloud, as it were.

I don’t know how widely available it is because I don’t live there anymore, but about half of my cousins’ children in Florida graduated from Community College a few weeks before graduation from high school. I was given to understand that their local school district replaced honors & AP classes with community college classes.

Now Florida is one of the states where a community college class WILL transfer to university and they structure things like a nursing program so you could graduate with an RN before graduation from high school. Not many states have that combination; either the community college courses are a complete joke, or due to waiting periods or weird exclusionary rules it would be impossible to structure it that way. Many of those kids did get an RN and went straight into $70k+ jobs working in Covid ICU’s, so it worked out well for them. 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, chocolate-chip chooky said:

And the insinuation that you need to know someone, or the parents are just pushing the child forward, or it's only possible because the program is easy? That's insulting. 

Are people insinuating that?  Here I thought we were just talking about the complexities of educating a highly gifted young person.

45 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

You know, it really doesn't make sense that there aren't more programs designed to accelerate the education of very young students who are ready for college-level work but would still benefit from being with their same-aged peers.

Strongly agree.  On the other hand, when it comes to funding programs like this, numbers matter, and by definition, there aren't huge numbers of kids who fall into this category.

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I'm pretty sure none of the ASU labs are in person if she's doing the remote program.

I read on their website that students do labs in person over a one week period.  Here's a link, but you need to scroll down a bit.

 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I think the thing that bothers me is that whenever there's a story like this, a lot of first reactions are negative - negative assumptions about the why, the how, the when, the what.

[Corraleno]

13 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

That's not the insinuation I'm getting from this thread.  What I read a lot of posters here saying something like "If a child can handle some unchallenging University program of study at age 12, surely that means they could handle the rigors of a top-tier program when they are a few years older, and it would be better to wait and to go the better school".

Now, I don't have much experience with profoundly gifted kids, so maybe this isn't true.  Maybe these kids are just "accelerated", meaning that they've reached their academic peak at age 12, and if she waited six years to go to college, she would still be going to the same school.  Personally, I doubt this, but I could be wrong.

What I think is missing from our educational system is challenging, but age-appropriate curricula for high schoolers.  Most high schoolers are just not as mature as college age students, and often need a different approach.  They benefit from every-day small classes in a high school setting, but that doesn't mean that the classes can't be challenging.  There are ways to have high-school maturity appropriate classes be as rigorous as college classes, but designed for high schoolers. Take Lukeion Latin & Greek classes for example -- they are very, very challenging, but at the same time, designed for high school kids.  Same with the Art of Problem Solving Math curriculum.  I'd like to see more of these kinds of options offered to high school kids, instead of dual-enrollment.

Yes, there's an important difference between a profoundly gifted kid who needs to go further/broader/deeper/richer and an accelerated kid who can just go faster through standard material, and I think the media (and many parents) really don't understand that distinction. It's the difference between a kid who is doing AOPS Algebra 2 in middle school, with detours into Number Theory and Probability, followed by AOPS PreCacl, Calc, Intermediate Number Theory, and Group Theory in HS, vs a kid who is zooming through multiple levels of Teaching Textbooks, finishes TT Precalculus in middle school, and then the homeschooling parent thinks the kid is a genius who needs to start college at 13 because they've maxed out HS level work. A really gifted math student would likely be bored to death with TT, while a kid who could zoom through 3 levels of TT per year might struggle with AOPS Prealgebra.

And that's where the disconnect in this story is for me — I think most highly gifted kids would find the online ASU classes at least as boring, if not more so, than many PS classes which at least have real interaction and discussion. If she really is highly gifted, not just bright and accelerated, then IMO she is being seriously short-changed by being pushed into such unchallenging programs. And even if she's just a really bright hard-working kid who can do standard work faster, I think she's been advised really poorly by whomever suggested (or allowed) that she do two simultaneous bachelor degrees in Biological Science, which just pointlessly duplicates coursework, instead of using the extra time to pursue other interests. It seems like someone has set her up to think that getting two degrees from low-ranked schools by 15 is a super impressive, prestigious accomplishment, when she could be spending that time in much more meaningful pursuits, like doing original research or working on her STEM-for-girls advocacy organization, or whatever.

[Farrar]

It's a weird thing with profoundly gifted kids. They need different things - some need this type of acceleration, especially at this age or they simply aren't going to be satisfied, will tune out, will not do anything. Others are going to burn out and wither at some point in the early teen years because they need deeper programs and a more in depth challenge of the kind you don't get through a relatively check the box program like she's done so far. Others are simply never going to fit into a box because giftedness isn't the pure blessing some people think it is - it can be a challenge just like any learning difference. Just like the parenting decisions we all make or big life choices we let our kids make, you don't always know the outcome until you have some hindsight.

She seems like a cool kid. I hope hindsight shows this to have been the right call and that she continues to thrive. I think it very well could be.

[PaxEtLux]

6 minutes ago, EKS said:

I read on their website that students do labs in person over a one week period.  Here's a link, but you need to scroll down a bit.

 

Are there any chemistry or biochem moms on this thread?  Website says that organic labs are 8 hours a day for 7 (consecutive?)  days and biochem is 8 hours a day for five days.  This seems a little crazy to me (does it include time to write-up the labs?), but I'm curious as to the opinions of someone with more expertise?

[Corraleno]

The degree in Biological Sciences, which  I think is what she says she's doing, has all labs online except Organic Chem: "You can expect to complete nearly all of your classes online. However, the organic chemistry lab course requires in-person attendance. All in-person work may be completed during a one-week session at the Arizona State University Tempe campus or at an approved accredited institution near your location."

https://asuonline.asu.edu/online-degree-programs/undergraduate/biological-sciences-bs/

[PaxEtLux]

21 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I think she's been advised really poorly by whomever suggested (or allowed) that she do two simultaneous bachelor degrees in Biological Science, which just pointlessly duplicates coursework, i

 

You know, despite what the article said, I don't think she's actually doing two full four year undergraduate programs concurrently for the same degree at two institutions.  Why would anyone do this? Who in advising would recommend this? Presumably, the classes from the two schools don't count for the other, so you'd need to take many of the exact same class twice, and all the general ed classes once for each school  I think she's primarily at one school, and has taken a few classes online at the other.

Edited July 24, 2022 by PaxEtLux

[Lecka]

It’s also not hard to imagine a student who is ready whose parents aren’t able to provide resume-building for the teen years.  Or who just don’t know it’s an option.  
 

And then also I think there are people who aren’t willing to look at potential reasons something would be a bad fit for some students.  

[Katy]

13 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Yes, there's an important difference between a profoundly gifted kid who needs to go further/broader/deeper/richer and an accelerated kid who can just go faster through standard material, and I think the media (and many parents) really don't understand that distinction. It's the difference between a kid who is doing AOPS Algebra 2 in middle school, with detours into Number Theory and Probability, followed by AOPS PreCacl, Calc, Intermediate Number Theory, and Group Theory in HS, vs a kid who is zooming through multiple levels of Teaching Textbooks, finishes TT Precalculus in middle school, and then the homeschooling parent thinks the kid is a genius who needs to start college at 13 because they've maxed out HS level work. A really gifted math student would likely be bored to death with TT, while a kid who could zoom through 3 levels of TT per year might struggle with AOPS Prealgebra.

And that's where the disconnect in this story is for me — I think most highly gifted kids would find the online ASU classes at least as boring, if not more so, than many PS classes which at least have real interaction and discussion. If she really is highly gifted, not just bright and accelerated, then IMO she is being seriously short-changed by being pushed into such unchallenging programs. And even if she's just a really bright hard-working kid who can do standard work faster, I think she's been advised really poorly by whomever suggested (or allowed) that she do two simultaneous bachelor degrees in Biological Science, which just pointlessly duplicates coursework, instead of using the extra time to pursue other interests. It seems like someone has set her up to think that getting two degrees from low-ranked schools by 15 is a super impressive, prestigious accomplishment, when she could be spending that time in much more meaningful pursuits, like doing original research or working on her STEM-for-girls advocacy organization, or whatever.

Pursuing multiple simultaneous degrees probably has more to do with lab access and funding than truly pursuing multiple degrees. 

I think most non gifted but neurotypical kids can handle checking off basic undergraduate courses in middle school, at least at half speed. 

Pursuing depth is a luxury many people don’t have, but acceleration can be done almost anywhere.

Whether it’s good and what the point of rushing is another question and I don’t think we have an answer for that. Plenty of gifted girls get bored in high school, sidetracked by a guy and/or a surprise pregnancy, and never make it through college at all. Someone I went to school with who was always bright just graduated high school (she’s now a grandmother of a child older than my youngest). And about half of the women I went to college early with hated their jobs in real life and went back to school to become nurses or teachers.

I’m sure zero of them would have guessed that would be their path beforehand. Even less would expect to like becoming stay at home moms who homeschool for depth rather than acceleration… but there are several of us. And one now runs a charter school to give the same thing to kids in her community as she was giving to her daughter. Though I also think the girl is social & she’s getting plenty of mom-approved friends in the process. 

[EKS]

36 minutes ago, PaxEtLux said:

Are there any chemistry or biochem moms on this thread?  Website says that organic labs are 8 hours a day for 7 (consecutive?)  days and biochem is 8 hours a day for five days.  This seems a little crazy to me (does it include time to write-up the labs?), but I'm curious as to the opinions of someone with more expertise?

We had o-chem lab once a week for 3+ hours for 10 weeks.  So 30+ hours for one course.  Multiply by two, since it was a two quarter sequence, and you get 60+ hours.  This is in line with what the ASU o-chem labs, since the seven days is also for the two course sequence.

[EKS]

44 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

And that's where the disconnect in this story is for me — I think most highly gifted kids would find the online ASU classes at least as boring, if not more so, than many PS classes which at least have real interaction and discussion. If she really is highly gifted, not just bright and accelerated, then IMO she is being seriously short-changed by being pushed into such unchallenging programs.

I agree with this.  My impression, which admittedly is based on very little, is that she is bright with excellent executive function, but not HG+.  

[PaxEtLux]

6 minutes ago, EKS said:

We had o-chem lab once a week for 3+ hours for 10 weeks.  So 30+ hours for one course.  Multiply by two, since it was a two quarter sequence, and you get 60+ hours.  This is in line with what the ASU o-chem labs, since the seven days is also for the two course sequence.

 

I meant in terms of reasonably prepping for, comprehending and understanding the labs.  Clearly, doing it in a blur of a single, concurrent 30 hour session would have the same time commitment, but no one would think that is a pedagogically sound way to do things.  I'm curious if you think you'd get as much out of a hyper-condensed, eight hours per day for a week lab course as you did the more traditional sequence.